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View Full Version : OT Dutch Troublemakers Turn Surplus Army Target Drone Into Autonomous Wi-Fi Sniffer



Dr Stan
08-17-2010, 10:13 AM
Guess its not just Google we need to worry about!

No more skinny dipping in the backyard pool. :D

http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2010-08/diy-wi-fi-drone-finds-wireless-hotspots-raises-privacy-questions

lazlo
08-17-2010, 10:30 AM
Dutch? Those are good, old American hackers at Defcon in Las Vegas! :)

Wow, it's a very impressive build. The plane requires manual takeoff and landing, but once it's airborne, you give it GPS coordinates, and it plots a path and flys itself to the waypoints. It will even loiter if it finds an interesting WiFi access point.

They have a 3G ground-link, so you can SSH in to the platform and remote hack :D

The video is great:

http://revision3.com/hak5/defcon18

They have a web page with a very detailed build log:

http://rabbit-hole.org/

Bob Farr
08-17-2010, 12:54 PM
It better not fly over this "hot spot":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLLAKnVej9o

Carld
08-17-2010, 01:00 PM
I wonder if they know what they are doing is illegal and the FAA would like to know about it which they will shortly. I am a member of the AMA model airplane society and they are all over our butts over stuff like this. The FAA is even talking about outlawing all RC model aircraft flying PERIOD.

Unmanned aircraft flown out of line of site are not allowed and if one of those fly into a full sized aircraft or a building or crashes and causes damage they are in serious trouble.

EDIT: I am talking about the unmanned plane, not the shotgun deal. I have to admit to having shot at a few planes myself but with a potato gun and roman candles.

lazlo
08-17-2010, 01:24 PM
I wonder if they know what they are doing is illegal and the FAA would like to know about it which they will shortly. I am a member of the AMA model airplane society and they are all over our

Of course they know it's illegal -- they're at Defcon, the annual hacker's conference in Las Vegas!

By the way Carl, you don't need to notify the authorities, the article Stan posted was from Popular Science, and they're on SlashDot as well. The whole technical community is giving them golf claps :p


It better not fly over this "hot spot":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLLAKnVej9o

You know, Area 51 is 135 miles from Vegas ;)

Too_Many_Tools
08-17-2010, 01:56 PM
The FAA is even talking about outlawing all RC model aircraft flying PERIOD.



They are considering it because RC aircraft can be used for terrorist purposes.

TMT

saltmine
08-17-2010, 02:43 PM
Years ago, I was flying R/C aircraft at the Sepulveda Basin, near Encino, California. It used to be a pretty wide open area.

We noticed quite a commotion on the other end of the field, with police cars and unmarked vehicles all over the place.

A "suit" drove up to our location and told us to land all of our aircraft, and asked if anybody had been near the "Fuji Blimp" that had passed over a few minutes before. Nope, we know better.

Seems a couple of college students (foreign exchange or something) had gone to the Hobby Shack store on Balboa, and bought a rather large trainer, radio, engine, and support accessories. None of them were AMA members, or knew how to fly all that well. Some time during their antics, the "Fuji Blimp" was passing overhead, and one of these "Einsteins" decided to try ramming the airship. I guess it's OK in their home country...

The trainer ended up badly damaged, the blimp suffered minor damage (mostly cosmetic). The police and the FAA were called, then the FBI and the CIA. It was quite a convention. If memory serves, the students were unceremoniously kicked out of the country, and the flying field was closed for several weeks until law enforcement got it all figured out.

I think most of the damage to the "Fuji Blimp" was to the pilot's undershorts.

Black_Moons
08-17-2010, 02:48 PM
Anyone allowing anything to be outlawed 'because terrorists could use it' should be shot.

Wrenchs could be used by terrorists to great effect. Do you really wanna go through a backround check and get a lisence just to buy wrenchs? Nuff said. Don't put up with crap. They won't even let you but potassium nitrate anymore in canada without a lisence.. Yet you can buy gunpowder over the counter. wtf!

There are no terrorists. Sure there are a few psycopaths that might murder you for no reason on the street, but we have safely locked away most of them as business CEO's.

Drones even do have posative uses you know. Like halk shaped RC aircraft that are now being used to protect some farmers fields.. ATM you gotta pay someone to fly em, Would be better if they flew themselfs.

less noisy then blueberry cannons thats for sure.

digger_doug
08-17-2010, 02:59 PM
Drones even do have posative uses you know. Like halk shaped RC aircraft that are now being used to protect some farmers fields.. ATM you gotta pay someone to fly em, Would be better if they flew themselfs.

less noisy then blueberry cannons thats for sure.

And who's driving the thing ? remember the "right of way" rules

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/0/934f0a02e17e7de086256eeb005192fc!OpenDocument

Teenage_Machinist
08-17-2010, 04:44 PM
I very much doubt that they _CAN_ outlaw all RC aircraft. They can outlaw large ones, or autonomous ones. An absolute ban just would not go over. Nobody would obey it.


Terrorist use of aircraft is pretty improbable. Most of them are not going to waste time with extremely elaborate, likely somewhat expensive setups when they can make very cheap attacks (especially considering propensity for suicide attacks for the groups we are most concerned with. )

x39
08-17-2010, 05:42 PM
In the early nineties when my step-brother was at MIT he was a member of the model rocketry club. The Secret Service visited them to gather information on the potential for missuse of the rockets as weapons. I understand they were quite concerned when they left. More to the point, I would guess that UAV technology will eventually find applications and become common in civilian aviation.

Carld
08-17-2010, 06:01 PM
OH YES THE GOVERNMENT CAN OUTLAW RC AIRCRAFT COMPLETELY. Don't believe me, ask the FAA what the law is about unmanned aircraft is and what they are looking into. The AMA is working with the FAA to keep them from closing all our flying sites and taking away our transmitter frequencies right now. It's not that they may do it, they ARE PLANNING TO DO IT. They already have RC model aircraft under the DO NOT FLY notices that are issued for full scale aircraft. The FAA notifies the AMA and the AMA notifies all the clubs and they are supposed to close the flying field until further notice. If you fly under the NO FLY period they can arrest you and prosecute you.

The government can do anything they want to and outlaw anything they want to and we don't have any recourse. I don't think many realize how much rights we have given up and they have taken away.

Black_Moons, Teenage_Machinist, your living under a false idea. Do you own a pound of gun powder, do you own some plastic or steel pipe with some end caps, do you have some cannon fuse or anything that can be made into a fuse? If so the BATF can put you in prison for making pipe bombs. The government has so many laws that there is hardly anything you can do that is not against the law and ignorance of the law is no excuse.

I did notify the president of the AMA and he replied that he forwarded the link to the FAA. The FAA is very interested in those people and they are gathering info for future use. I want to keep on flying model aircraft but people like that are the ones that will ruin it for all the law abiding fliers.

Black_Moons
08-17-2010, 06:13 PM
The government can do anything they want to and outlaw anything they want to and we don't have any recourse. I don't think many realize how much rights we have given up and they have taken away.


Viva la revolution!
But seriously, I think it will come to that. And of course, the 'revolutionarys' will be called terrorists, and prosacuted under the laws they are making today.. Due to fear of revolution.
Also see: History books.
Democratic goverment just isent democratic enough when all you get to vote for is who is the head of the complaints department. How about voting on laws? Security measures? Freedoms? handouts err I mean bailouts to large companys?
Sure the people might screw it up. But should'nt we have that right?

Too_Many_Tools
08-17-2010, 06:57 PM
I very much doubt that they _CAN_ outlaw all RC aircraft. They can outlaw large ones, or autonomous ones. An absolute ban just would not go over. Nobody would obey it.


Terrorist use of aircraft is pretty improbable. Most of them are not going to waste time with extremely elaborate, likely somewhat expensive setups when they can make very cheap attacks (especially considering propensity for suicide attacks for the groups we are most concerned with. )

RC aircraft owners are a TINY portion of the population.

RC could easily be outlawed.

Do I agree with that type of action...no.

Do I understand it could easily happen...yes.

TMT

Carld
08-17-2010, 06:58 PM
I agree, there will be a revolution, even the founding fathers predicted it. They said a government only lasts a few hundred years before it collapses and is overthrown. It's in the history of all governments. I am as pissed as anyone about what they have done to us.

Too_Many_Tools
08-17-2010, 07:01 PM
Viva la revolution!
But seriously, I think it will come to that. And of course, the 'revolutionarys' will be called terrorists, and prosacuted under the laws they are making today.. Due to fear of revolution.
Also see: History books.
Democratic goverment just isent democratic enough when all you get to vote for is who is the head of the complaints department. How about voting on laws? Security measures? Freedoms? handouts err I mean bailouts to large companys?
Sure the people might screw it up. But should'nt we have that right?

The capability to change the system is in place..it is up to the citizens to make it happen.

Pick your topic and choose the candidate that supports it...and then get to work using the system in place to make the change.

TMT

lynnl
08-17-2010, 07:37 PM
How about voting on laws? Security measures? Freedoms? handouts err I mean bailouts to large companys?
Sure the people might screw it up. But should'nt we have that right?

Well I don't know about Canada, but here in the US we don't have that right.
We have a representative government. We elect those bas.., er people, and they vote on the laws, freedoms, etc., etc... for us.

Black_Moons
08-17-2010, 07:57 PM
Well I don't know about Canada, but here in the US we don't have that right.


So Demand it. As the goverment has shown you, Rights can and do change in the blink of an eye.

J Tiers
08-17-2010, 08:31 PM
They are considering it because RC aircraft can be used for terrorist purposes.

TMT

So can cars, trucks, knives, forks, and spoons.....

I am getting VERY tired of this.......

Rich Carlstedt
08-17-2010, 08:44 PM
To show the insanity of Government control just answer this question

Do you think Terrorists are law abiding citizens or aliens ?

Answer
Quite obviously they intend to violate laws , so what makes the government think that outlawing something will stop them ?

I think our representitives are some of the dumbest people on earth when it comes to common sense

Look closely, and you will find that everytime there is a terrorist attack, there were law violations that were picked up by the Gov, and they did nothing !
Witness the Christmas Bomber...was on a no fly list and the Gov blew it.( finger pointing)
How many 9-11 guys were picked up before the event and released and they had Visa violations...but hey, we want to stop RC aircraft !

Weston Bye
08-17-2010, 08:50 PM
Think it can't happen? They tried once.


http://www.vestatech.com/company_news_FBI.htm

VESTA TECHNOLOGY RECOGNIZED FOR THEIR AID IN THE WAR ON TERRORISM



WHEAT RIDGE, COLORADO / 11 August 2005

Vesta Technology has received an award from The U.S. Department of Justice for assisting the FBI in combating International Terrorism.

This award comes as a result of Vesta’s involvement in the 2004 trial of three members of an alleged “Virginia jihad network”. A member of the alleged network purchased Vesta’s MP-1000SYS airplane control module. This module is a stability and control computer that can be programmed to fly an airplane with a 10 - 12 foot wingspan using Global Positioning System(GPS) coordinates. The unit controls altitude, speed, and navigation to programmed waypoints, and can also be programmed to turn a video camera on and off when the airplane reaches certain locations. The majority of Vesta’s customers for this technology are universities and the government, including NASA and the military. A Vesta employee became suspicious during the ordering process and was able to obtain enough information to assist the FBI in and the US Department of Justice in later securing a conviction.


I have been buying products from Vesta for machine controls and test stands fo a number of years.

lazlo
08-17-2010, 09:34 PM
This module is a stability and control computer that can be programmed to fly an airplane with a 10 - 12 foot wingspan using Global Positioning System(GPS) coordinates. The unit controls altitude, speed, and navigation to programmed waypoints, and can also be programmed to turn a video camera on and off when the airplane reaches certain locations.

See, they should ban personal aircraft as well. :p You could put a bomb in a remote control car too -- anyone remember the hilarious "car" chase with Dirty Harry in The Dead Pool? So they should ban remote control cars too. Then again, Mythbusters has retrofitted full-sized cars for remote control several times, so they should ban cars too.

The truly amusing part is that these hackers are already doing something illegal (hacking from an airborne platform), so outlawing autonomous RC aircraft/cars will accomplish... nothing. :rolleyes:

Reminds me of the DC gun control battles in the 90's when I worked at Army Research Lab. The crack dealers in DC were killing each other with full auto AK's and MAC-10's, and the gun control crowd was claiming that Maryland and Virginia needed stricter gun control laws to cut down on the drug war killings.

Too_Many_Tools
08-17-2010, 10:13 PM
Well I don't know about Canada, but here in the US we don't have that right.
We have a representative government. We elect those bas.., er people, and they vote on the laws, freedoms, etc., etc... for us.


And it would seem that this approach has served us well.

And the World seems to agree since we are still the favored place for economic investment.

The stability our political system offers allows for that investment.

If you do not like the results that you and your fellow citizens have voted for, then change it.

In my experience, those who advocate violent change are those who have nothing to lose or expect someone else to pay the price for the revolution.

Take some time and review the history of those who participated in the Revolutionary War...most lost fortunes, family members and their lives to invoke that change.

Are you willing to exchange all your assets, your life and your children's lives for the revolution some of you talk about?

A friend of mine..a liberal who grew up during the 60's...made an observation of the current Tea Party fad.

He noted that none of them so far seem to be committed enough to the cause to go to jail for their beliefs.

While I may disagree with him on some issues, on this issue he has a valid point.

TMT

wierdscience
08-17-2010, 10:48 PM
Take some time and review the history of those who participated in the Revolutionary War...most lost fortunes, family members and their lives to invoke that change.

Are you willing to exchange all your assets, your life and your children's lives for the revolution some of you talk about?

Many people ARE losing they're assets,they're children condemed to paying for other people's bills while seeing they're freedoms taken away.Sooner or later they may just realize what's going on then there will be a revolution.


A friend of mine..a liberal who grew up during the 60's...made an observation of the current Tea Party fad.

He noted that none of them so far seem to be committed enough to the cause to go to jail for their beliefs.

TMT

That's because the Teaparty folks are law abiding productive citizens instead of smelly no account hippies:D

wierdscience
08-17-2010, 10:50 PM
It better not fly over this "hot spot":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLLAKnVej9o

Now that's cool right there I don't care who you are:D

Too_Many_Tools
08-17-2010, 11:45 PM
Many people ARE losing they're assets,they're children condemed to paying for other people's bills while seeing they're freedoms taken away.Sooner or later they may just realize what's going on then there will be a revolution.


Due to the Crash of '08...where over a trillion dollars was lost...we all lost in that one.

That is what recessions do.

Be thankful for the current government spending...otherwise we it would be a DEPRESSION.

The Great Depression taught us that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_depression

Nobody in their right mind would want to repeat that disaster.

Perhaps the "Revolution" you speak of will occur at the voting booth where the American voter will finish what they started in 2006 and 2008.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
08-18-2010, 12:02 AM
That's because the Teaparty folks are law abiding productive citizens instead of smelly no account hippies:D

LOL..yeah right.


http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hidden-motives/201004/tea-party-members-revealed

TMT

Carld
08-18-2010, 12:49 AM
The government spending after the crash of '29 did not shorten the depression, it lengthened it. There is a lot written about how Roosevelt's programs extended the length and depth of the depression.

There is no way to spend yourself out of a depression and it was proven in the '30's. The only thing that brought us out of the depression was WWII and that is a fact of history.

Obama is spending the USA into bankruptcy and if continued we will be like Turkey and other European countries.

Too_Many_Tools
08-18-2010, 01:06 AM
The government spending after the crash of '29 did not shorten the depression, it lengthened it. There is a lot written about how Roosevelt's programs extended the length and depth of the depression.



Care to provide some of those references?

Thanks

TMT

saltmine
08-18-2010, 01:22 AM
That's exactly what the terrorists want us to do...start banning things, taking away our own freedom.

If we continue on like nothing happened, and stop banning things that could be used to commit acts of terror, it'll drive them nuts!

They want us to live, looking over our shoulders, and living in fear.

Too_Many_Tools
08-18-2010, 04:22 AM
That's exactly what the terrorists want us to do...start banning things, taking away our own freedom.

If we continue on like nothing happened, and stop banning things that could be used to commit acts of terror, it'll drive them nuts!

They want us to live, looking over our shoulders, and living in fear.

That is a red herring.

Terrorists want you and me dead.

As for banning stuff....I want a rocket launcher..really.

Why can't I have one?

Because there are idiots out there who would use one to hurt others.

I understand that...I don't like it...but I understand it.

But I really do still want a rocket launcher.

TMT

wierdscience
08-18-2010, 08:57 AM
LOL..yeah right.


http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hidden-motives/201004/tea-party-members-revealed

TMT

Like most psychoanalysts he needs serious meds.

wierdscience
08-18-2010, 08:59 AM
That is a red herring.

Terrorists want you and me dead.

As for banning stuff....I want a rocket launcher..really.

Why can't I have one?

Because there are idiots out there who would use one to hurt others.

I understand that...I don't like it...but I understand it.

But I really do still want a rocket launcher.

TMT

They don't want us all dead,they want us subjugated under they're control.

We have been far to easy on the Muslim world and they know it.

Carld
08-18-2010, 09:54 AM
Too_Many_Tools, I spent my time reading about it so if your really interested in why the recovery programs didn't work in the Great Depression then look it up. I doubt your really interested in the truth. There are some books about it and things on line so it's not hard to find IF you want to.

Too_Many_Tools
08-18-2010, 12:35 PM
Too_Many_Tools, I spent my time reading about it so if your really interested in why the recovery programs didn't work in the Great Depression then look it up. I doubt your really interested in the truth. There are some books about it and things on line so it's not hard to find IF you want to.

The burden is on you to provide the sources that you think support your claims.

And I do want to see them.

It is impossible for me to know that any source I find is one that you have read.

I should note that out of respect for the OP we should try to stay closer to the subject of this OT topic.

TMT