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Black_Moons
08-18-2010, 11:22 PM
Hi. Im still wondering what kinda rods one uses with an Oxy/Acetylene torch to weld.. Some people have mentioned cloths hangers.. but well, All mine are plastic, and somehow I suspect a real rod might be better.

I never see anything labeled oxygen/Acetylene or gas welding in the welding supply sections of tool stores.. Should I just use Tig filler?

Ken_Shea
08-18-2010, 11:28 PM
Black_Moons, I can tell you what not to use :)

That copper coated stuff at the welding store, ask for their un-coated hi-tensile gas welding rod, generally 3/32 is a good all around size.

Used plenty of metal coat hangers but only in a pinch, they just are not around any longer either.

Ken

So I do not get hammered with disagreement, probably should not have been so critical of the copper coated welding rod.
It works fine, I just never liket that little scum floating on top of the puddle when using it.

The un-coated hi-tensile is stronger and fully compatible where ever gas rod is appropriate.

chipmaker4130
08-18-2010, 11:30 PM
You can use anything compatible with your base metal. OA rods for welding are bare or copper clad, and typically come in 36" lengths and whatever diameter you want. I use mild steel rod in 1/16" to 1/4" diameter. 'Tig' filler is fine. The copper clad rod is usually more expensive. If you will keep the rod in a humid environment, it may help with rust prevention. I don't know what issues Ken has had with the copper clad stuff. I've used a lot of both over 30 years and haven't noticed anything particular to them.

Brass rod for use with OA is available with or without a flux coating.

oldtiffie
08-18-2010, 11:33 PM
Soft black "iron" (steel) rods.

Instead of just looking - ask.

I have yet to see a good welding supplier that does not stock them.

Brasing, bronzing, soft and silver soldering, hard-facing, welding of brass, bronze, steel, aluminium, stainless steel, cast iron etc. etc. are all within the gambit of a good oxy-acet welder and his kit.

Those rods and associated "consumables" will all be there too - just ask.

ADGO_Racing
08-18-2010, 11:47 PM
I have used coat hangers in the past, they are harder to find these days. Coat hangers are great for exhaust work, and even non critical sheet metal work.


Most of my OA welding these days is brazing, everything else is Tig, Stick or Mig.

Willy
08-18-2010, 11:55 PM
If you're welding coat hangers, then yes by all means use coat hangers for filler.:D
But seriously it is the same as the wire used for mig welding, ER70S6.
I buy it in 36" cut lengths at one of the local welding supply stores as it is also used as tig filler rod.
Although I usually use 3/32" or 1/16" I have used .045" off of a spool of mig wire in a pinch. The copper coated wire is handy for rust protection during storage but I usually get the bare wire as I don't have too many issues with moisture.


Edited for grammar

Highpower
08-18-2010, 11:57 PM
RG-45 is a good general purpose rod for mild steel:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=RG-45+gas+welding+rod

radkins
08-19-2010, 12:34 AM
Don't use coat hanger for anything except maybe exhaust pipe, well I guess it might be ok for repairing broken coat hangers. Honestly coat hanger makes terrible welding wire because it is full of trash and you never know what is in the weld besides usually being a PIA to weld with. Get some true high quality gas welding rod by a reputable welding filler company like Linde, Hobart, etc and forget the coat hanger and the no name welding rods from auto parts stores and the like. They generally just pop, splatter and make a mess of things and when you switch to the real quality type rods there is a world of difference. Also like it was said earlier try to find the uncoated rods because Copper is slightly detrimental to the weld, hardly enough to be a problem but not good for it anyway.


Just another point about the Copper coating, it will not protect the rods from rusting and it is not there for moisture protection. The Copper coating is extremely thin and is only there to prevent wear to the draw dies when sizing the wire, actually the bare rods may be slightly more rust resistant due to a thin oil coating they have but in either case the manufacturers make no provisions for the welder to allow his rods to get wet! When shopping for rods you will probably find that the bare uncoated rods are actually more expensive than the Copper coated rod.

lugnut
08-19-2010, 12:45 AM
I'm sure the wire or rods the welding stores sell has been tested to do the best for certain jobs, but I have welded a ton of stuff (all mild steel) with plain old baling wire strait off the farm. I bought a box of bailing wire 15 years ago at a public auction and have uses it for almost every thing your imagination can come up with. For brazing work I use the flux coated brazing rod.

doctor demo
08-19-2010, 01:12 AM
ask for their un-coated hi-tensile gas welding rod, generally 3/32 is a good all around size.
The un-coated hi-tensile is stronger and fully compatible where ever gas rod is appropriate.
Ken, I'm not going to say that You are wrong...but back when I was learning to gas weld we were taught to use a mild steel filler .
The reason is the carbon in the base metal and the chance of having a carburizing flame instead of a neutral flame is greater when learning to weld and increases the chances of having a brittle weld. In fact a lot of old welders I know that weld chrome molly tubing use mild steel filler so as not to make the joints brittle.

Just My 3 cents
Steve

winchman
08-19-2010, 04:28 AM
I agree with Steve. Even aircraft structures made of 4130 are welded with mild steel filler and O/A.

BWS
08-19-2010, 05:56 AM
70S3 Tig rod here.Keep a pc of scotchbrite on rod box to knock copper off.I was always told the copper was to help in drawing the rod during mauf.It comes right off and does offer some protection during storage.BW


Oh yeah,put me in the "just say no" to coat hangar crowd.They even suck as hangars........start shopping at the right places(Goodwill,yardsales and dumpsters)and get real wood hangars.

macona
08-19-2010, 06:07 AM
No need to remove the copper coating is is so thin it does not make a difference, Dosnt help with corrosion resistance either. Left a rod out in the rain to see what would happen. Got one rusty rod.

MuellerNick
08-19-2010, 07:52 AM
The general rule is NOT to use tig-fillers for O/A welding and vice versa. They do have different alloys.
The chemistry of the surrounding gas is quite different.


Nick

Dawai
08-19-2010, 07:59 AM
Henrob welding car bodies.. you can take a panel, cut it to it just " 1/16th touches" the other.. as you heat it.. it growes together and fuse welds.. Since it is stretched together and shrinks when cooled, there is very little "extra metal" to dolly back down level..

Light 60 grit work, a skim of putty and it dissapears.. very little spoon and dolly hammering to level out. The first thing I did with my henrob was a gas filler hole in a 41 chevy.. vertical.. I had to add mig wire.. another trick..

What is it you are welding? have you bought the blue aluminum welding glassses yet? (mine are still in pouch) I have been working off the tiny acetylene and oxygen tanks.. MC.. in the lil holder.. so I have not done much with mine in a while.. I got a miller tig and welded six hours with it yesterday.

Your Old Dog
08-19-2010, 08:26 AM
......................................I got a miller tig and welded six hours with it yesterday.

Which one did you get David? I have the 135 but wish I'd have gotten the 175, they say the extra umph gives a steadier arc?

oldtiffie
08-19-2010, 08:26 AM
Thanks David.

I've pretty well forgotten about my standard O/A set for welding as I use my "made in the USA" "Henrob" aka "Cobra" aka "Dillon" torch as it will weld just about any metal - steel very much included - all at 4 psi (no typo) for both oxy and acet. I have the full set - imported from the USA. It is my "TIG" set.

http://www.amweld.com.au/

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source=hp&q=henrob+torch+review&aq=9&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=henrob&gs_rfai=&fp=65c15ffa92ed0752

I only use my "standard" O/A set for larger O/A heating and cutting.

I prefer the plasma for general cutting as it is rated at 3/8" at 10"/minute - will do 1/2" at a stretch and will cut anything that is conductive.

For pre-heating welds with O/A and Propane for years I just recently got put onto just using a common electric paint/heat gun - by one of the members here. It hit me like a brick when I read it - and it works - and the heat-gun has a new life - thanks K.

Carm
08-19-2010, 08:30 AM
Steel coat hangers were made with a high carbon content which lowers the liquidus temperature and allows more control on light guage material...something that can to an extent be attained with a carburizing flame. As noted, that WILL affect mechanicals. Lots of utility welding is plenty strong regardless-1/4 panels, fenders etc.
Poor technique coupled with a tendency to burn out alloying elements and a wide HAZ renders high alloy rods pointless ala welding chrome moly with mild steel.

wierdscience
08-19-2010, 08:44 AM
If you want coat hangers go by your local mechanics shop and ask them if they rent they're uniforms,most do.If they do they will usually have piles of coat hangers that can be bought cheap.

I put mine in the caustic tank to remove the laquer on them,makes the shop less smelly:)

lazlo
08-19-2010, 08:57 AM
Don't use coat hanger for anything except maybe exhaust pipe, well I guess it might be ok for repairing broken coat hangers. Honestly coat hanger makes terrible welding wire because it is full of trash and you never know what is in the weld besides usually being a PIA to weld with.

Agreed, I'll use coat hanger as a last resort, but it's scrap steel with all kinds of nasty impurities. It's similar quality to bed-frame metal, and sure as heck isn't ER70S6.

Edit: this is a quote from my welding textbook (Jeffus' Welding Principles and Applications):


Small shops sometimes use other types of wire for weld filler metals. The most popular substitution is often coat-hanger wire. Using such substitutes can cause weld failure.

Coat-hanger wires were not manufactured for welding purposes, and their chemistry varies greatly. Porosity inside the weld deposit is common due to higher than acceptable levels of phosphorous (P) and sulfur (S). The painted finish of the wire will burn, causing further weld contamination and fumes that can be hazardous to the welder.

Ken_Shea
08-19-2010, 09:10 AM
Ken, I'm not going to say that You are wrong...but back when I was learning to gas weld we were taught to use a mild steel filler .
The reason is the carbon in the base metal and the chance of having a carburizing flame instead of a neutral flame is greater when learning to weld and increases the chances of having a brittle weld. In fact a lot of old welders I know that weld chrome molly tubing use mild steel filler so as not to make the joints brittle.

Just My 3 cents
Steve

Steve,
Here's your change :D
The Hi-tensile gas welding rod is not what the name would seemingly imply, however, it does have more strength then what is called soft steel filler rod.
It is a perfect rod for welding IMO.
Have welded lots of chrome molly with it.
I would have no problem using the soft steel though if it wasn't copper coated, The Hi-Tensile was un-coated, that was the only reason the supply house suggested the Hi-Tensile way back when.

Ken

radkins
08-19-2010, 12:29 PM
For those who think coat hanger is ok just remember the next time you are having a problem with that darn "tip" popping and splattering the weld that it is far more likely the junk in the rod causing the problem! I have seen this before, some think that coat hanger is good as anything for most non-critical welds and while that MIGHT be true in some cases the difference in the way the rod welds makes coat hanger a non starter. As the old saying goes there is as much difference as "night and day" in the way the metal flows out and does so with much less problem with popping and splatter.

I also agree that the Copper coating is so thin it is hardly a problem but still it is a contaminate and removing it rids the weld of this contaminate, minor as it might be. The light oil coating on the bare rods should also be removed by wiping them with a rag soaked in Acetone or some other safe solvent.

ulav8r
08-19-2010, 02:55 PM
Used a coathanger once. Have used lots of rebar tie wire for non-critical items such as repairing cracks in a mower deck or frames to support equipment.

oldbikerdude37
08-19-2010, 05:12 PM
Hi. Im still wondering what kinda rods one uses with an Oxy/Acetylene torch to weld.. Some people have mentioned cloths hangers.. but well, All mine are plastic, and somehow I suspect a real rod might be better.

I never see anything labeled oxygen/Acetylene or gas welding in the welding supply sections of tool stores.. Should I just use Tig filler?
I have used bailing wire back when that was common. You can use it to weld mild steel just fine. In a pinch you can shear 14 gauge in 1/16" strips and use that for filler rod.
I like gas welding, you can seal up holes real nice.

gnm109
08-19-2010, 05:39 PM
Black_Moons, I can tell you what not to use :)

That copper coated stuff at the welding store, ask for their un-coated hi-tensile gas welding rod, generally 3/32 is a good all around size.

Used plenty of metal coat hangers but only in a pinch, they just are not around any longer either.

Ken

So I do not get hammered with disagreement, probably should not have been so critical of the copper coated welding rod.
It works fine, I just never liket that little scum floating on top of the puddle when using it.

The un-coated hi-tensile is stronger and fully compatible where ever gas rod is appropriate.





The copper is on the rod to prevent corrision. When the uncoated rod is new, it's fine. When it gets rusty, it's not very good.

.

radkins
08-19-2010, 05:47 PM
The copper is on the rod to prevent corrision. When the uncoated rod is new, it's fine. When it gets rusty, it's not very good.

.



No it is not on there to prevent corrosion and it will not prevent corrosion in fact the bare rods with their light oil coating are actually more rust resistant, leave some of the Copper rod in a moist place and they will rust as fast as the bare ones. The Copper is on there to prevent wear to the draw dies and galling during sizing and nothing more, it is a slight contaminate and probably should be removed in a super critical welding situation but the coating is so light it most likely will do little harm-still it is a contaminate however slight.

BWS
08-19-2010, 05:53 PM
I was mentored in Gas welding by an oldster who was a longtime welder in the blower/air handler world........he said 70S3,I said cool.But ya'll piqued my interest so cracked open an old welding text.Sure enough RG45,RG60 and 65 were recomended for "mild steel".BW

PS:I have found when teaching youngins who show an interest in welding,that they respond very well to gas welding.Kids and flame,but it does really get them setup for other processes later.

leesr
08-19-2010, 06:04 PM
No it is not on there to prevent corrosion and it will not prevent corrosion in fact the bare rods with their light oil coating are actually more rust resistant, leave some of the Copper rod in a moist place and they will rust as fast as the bare ones. The Copper is on there to prevent wear to the draw dies and galling during sizing and nothing more, it is a slight contaminate and probably should be removed in a super critical welding situation but the coating is so light it most likely will do little harm-still it is a contaminate however slight.

Ok a flash plated coating on the steel will help as a by product for corosion.
how ever as said the coating is so thin that moisture will penetrate to the base metal. so it's corrosion protection is limited.
the othe reason moisture penetrates the copper because it is porous." just wanted to this note!!"

some one should post the safety procedures when using O/A.

Leesr:eek:

leesr
08-19-2010, 06:13 PM
http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/weld/weld.html

this link has good tips on safety

Leesr

leesr
08-19-2010, 06:23 PM
if the job is a lawnmower deck repair or some other simple project that is not critical. then mild steel is always a good bet.

It's a good idea to remove corosion & clean the mating surfaces.
I stored my welding rods in plastic containers to prevent moisture
from ruining my rods.
Stick or O/A

I would suggest others add on to this post.

Leesr

lazlo
08-19-2010, 06:45 PM
Ok a flash plated coating on the steel will help as a by product for corosion.

I'm really curious about this. I'm a little dubious about the copper coating to reduce wear on the extrusion dies, since there's no copper coating when you buy 1/8" mild steel rod, or sub 1/8" piano wire.

radkins
08-19-2010, 06:52 PM
Ok a flash plated coating on the steel will help as a by product for corosion.
how ever as said the coating is so thin that moisture will penetrate to the base metal. so it's corrosion protection is limited.
the othe reason moisture penetrates the copper because it is porous." just wanted to this note!!"

some one should post the safety procedures when using O/A.

Leesr:eek:



The only reason I mentioned it is that too many people think that moisture protection is why the Copper is on there and expect it to keep them from rusting which it will not do. I suppose a flash coating like that could have some moisture protection but in this case it's not even as good as a coat of light oil. The only moisture protection the manufacturers provide is the packaging and they don't take any special steps for flux covered rods or flux cored wire both of which are very susceptible to moisture damage so why would they go so far as to plate a rod that is probably the least prone to moisture damage? It is up the the user to protect the rods from the environment and the manufacturers make no provisions for the user to get careless with consumables, which the misunderstanding about the Copper coating leads some to do.

radkins
08-19-2010, 07:03 PM
I'm really curious about this. I'm a little dubious about the copper coating to reduce wear on the extrusion dies, since there's no copper coating when you buy 1/8" mild steel rod, or sub 1/8" piano wire.



I was told this first many years ago at a welding seminar by a rep from Linde and again by a Hobart rep a few years back when we were having problems with some Hobart wire. I have also read the same in several welding manuals and the very excellent book "Performance Welding" by Richard Finch, "Performance Welding" has probably the most in depth coverage of gas welding of any I have seen and Finch is a very highly regarded author and authority on welding. Finch states flat out in his book to avoid Copper coated rods and that the Copper is only there for forming purposes and has no other use.

lazlo
08-19-2010, 07:28 PM
Finch states flat out in his book to avoid Copper coated rods and that the Copper is only there for forming purposes and has no other use.

OK, I'm convinced. :)

gnm109
08-19-2010, 07:28 PM
I'm really curious about this. I'm a little dubious about the copper coating to reduce wear on the extrusion dies, since there's no copper coating when you buy 1/8" mild steel rod, or sub 1/8" piano wire.


I agree. I don't mind being contradicted when the "contraidictor" has some facts. I've heard that it's for corrosion protection. I have copper-coated rod that I've had for twenty years and it still looks like new. The plain rods I have are rusted.

As you say, if the coppper were on there to protect the dies, they would have it on everything. I know, it's in the book. So what about the plain rods?

radkins
08-19-2010, 07:52 PM
I agree. I don't mind being contradicted when the "contraidictor" has some facts. I've heard that it's for corrosion protection. I have copper-coated rod that I've had for twenty years and it still looks like new. The plain rods I have are rusted.

As you say, if the coppper were on there to protect the dies, they would have it on everything. I know, it's in the book. So what about the plain rods?



What you choose to believe is up to you and I can certainly respect that and will not argue the point, what I have said about it comes from authoritative sources and has been pretty much common knowledge for many years. I can understand why people think the coating is for moisture protection but after using the darn things for 40 years I am also well aware of the fact that the coated rods rust just as easily as the uncoated ones, besides why would the manufacturers take steps like that to protect the rod that is the least sensitive to moisture and not to other welding fillers that are critically sensitive to moisture and the damage to the weld from exposure? The only other filler I know that is Copper coated is the solid MIG wires and they too are coated for the same reason as the gas and TIG rods, uncoated MIG wires are available and the funny thing is they actually cost more than the coated equivalent.

Farbmeister
08-19-2010, 08:59 PM
The problem I see is that well, um COPPER DOESN'T RUST.

Only FERROUS METALS RUST.

So as I see it, all you'all is wrong.

As for using coat hangers... there are decades of proof that it produces successful welds. Not sure if its tool snobbery or what... but a lot more has been done with plenty of 'impure' objects.

Next on myth-guesser... you can't oxy weld cast iron :rolleyes:

gnm109
08-19-2010, 09:04 PM
The problem I see is that well, um COPPER DOESN'T RUST.

Only FERROUS METALS RUST.

So as I see it, all you'all is wrong.

As for using coat hangers... there are decades of proof that it produces successful welds. Not sure if its tool snobbery or what... but a lot more has been done with plenty of 'impure' objects.

Next on myth-guesser... you can't oxy weld cast iron :rolleyes:


It brazes nicely. I don't think it welds in the true sense of the word, you all. :D

radkins
08-19-2010, 09:11 PM
The problem I see is that well, um COPPER DOESN'T RUST.

Only FERROUS METALS RUST.:


Certainly it does not but the coating on a Copper coated rod or MIG wire is simply too thin to be of any real value in that respect. It really would be a non-issue anyway except for the problem of someone allowing their wire to rust because of the mistaken belief that it is protected and that scenario does happen all too often. Most any non corrosive coating would offer some protection and probably a Copper coated rod would be somewhat less likely to rust that a cleaned bare rod but the fact is a light coating of oil would provide even more protection than the Copper so why on Earth would the Manufacturers plate the wire for the slight, almost useless, protection it might offer? Copper coated rods left in a damp environment will most certainly rust and they will do it in short order!

gnm109
08-19-2010, 09:19 PM
Certainly it does not but the coating on a Copper coated rod or MIG wire is simply too thin to be of any real value in that respect. It really would be a non-issue anyway except for the problem of someone allowing their wire to rust because of the mistaken belief that it is protected and that scenario does happen all too often. Most any non corrosive coating would offer some protection and probably a Copper coated rod would be somewhat less likely to rust that a cleaned bare rod but the fact is a light coating of oil would provide even more protection than the Copper so why on Earth would the Manufacturers plate the wire for the slight, almost useless, protection it might offer? Copper coated rods left in a damp environment will most certainly rust and they will do it in short order!


Mine don't. come up with some facts. All I've heard so far is opinion.

Evan
08-19-2010, 09:34 PM
I have been gas welding for 40 years. The copper is generally called "Protective coating" by the manufacturers of gas welding rod. On mig wire the copper is applied after the wire is drawn by the better manufacturers. It's there to prevent sticking and welding to the nozzle as well as providing better conductivity when welding with long stickout.

Here is from the product spec for mild steel gas rod.

http://ixian.ca/pics7/gasrod.gif

gnm109
08-19-2010, 09:42 PM
I have been gas welding for 40 years. The copper is generally called "Protective coating" by the manufacturers of gas welding rod. On mig wire the copper is applied after the wire is drawn by the better manufacturers. It's there to prevent sticking and welding to the nozzle as well as providing better conductivity when welding with long stickout.

Here is from the product spec for mild steel gas rod.

http://ixian.ca/pics7/gasrod.gif



Hee hee! Guess some of our other posters were mistaken about when the copper is added.......Thanks Evan. :D

wierdscience
08-19-2010, 10:08 PM
Agreed, I'll use coat hanger as a last resort, but it's scrap steel with all kinds of nasty impurities. It's similar quality to bed-frame metal, and sure as heck isn't ER70S6.
.[/COLOR][/INDENT]

No,bed frame rails are made from re-rolled railroad rails which is some pretty good s---:D

http://www.jssteel.com/steel-angle/specifications.asp


http://www.jssteel.com/applications/index.asp

Coat hanger wire ain't nothing but nail stock which is nothing but simple carbon steel.You shouldn't weld aricraft frames with it,but damn near everything else can be welded with it.

gnm109
08-19-2010, 11:09 PM
No,bed frame rails are made from re-rolled railroad rails which is some pretty good s---:D

http://www.jssteel.com/steel-angle/specifications.asp


http://www.jssteel.com/applications/index.asp

Coat hanger wire ain't nothing but nail stock which is nothing but simple carbon steel.You shouldn't weld aricraft frames with it,but damn near everything else can be welded with it.


I like old bed frames. They make good stock for projects. I built part of the frame for my large powder coat oven and also the frame for my Rotary Phase Converter out of bed frames. It cuts nicely and can be TIG, Stick or MIG welded with ease. It is some good stuff...

I have a deal with the local second-hand shop. I buy every old bed frame he gets in. They are usually less than $5. Not bad for close to 20 feet of angle iron.

bruto
08-19-2010, 11:15 PM
Coat hangers vary. Not so common now, there used to be a lot of them that had a very light copper coating similar to the coated welding rod. No lacquer or paint. It's worthwhile to keep your eyes open at yard sales and estate sales and the like, because sometimes a closet full of these will turn up free.

At some point in the past I got a cheap deal on a box of something called "lightning rods," which are pieces of uncoated mild steel meant to be sprung between floor joists to hold in insulation. They're a nice size. As I recall, the ones I got were about 1/8 inch diameter and 18 or so inches long. Easy to handle, and need no unbending as hangers do.

lazlo
08-19-2010, 11:18 PM
No,bed frame rails are made from re-rolled railroad rails which is some pretty good s---:D

How do you know? All the bed frames I've tried to machine are made from the worst sort of (s)crap: it's a swiss cheese of random hard and soft spots. Pretty good bet it's the dregs of a scrapyard pour.


Coat hanger wire ain't nothing but nail stock which is nothing but simple carbon steel.

Maybe 20 years ago it was, but now it's made out of 7x10 mini-lathes that were returned to Harbor Freight. :p Remember Mike hit a spark plug when he machined the base of his tailstock?

wierdscience
08-19-2010, 11:21 PM
I like old bed frames. They make good stock for projects. I built part of the frame for my large powder coat oven and also the frame for my Rotary Phase Converter out of bed frames. It cuts nicely and can be TIG, Stick or MIG welded with ease. It is some good stuff...

I have a deal with the local second-hand shop. I buy every old bed frame he gets in. They are usually less than $5. Not bad for close to 20 feet of angle iron.

The above company supplied re-roll angle for some folding highway construction signs we had a contract for years ago.They delivered cut to length pieces with corners sniped,holes punched and ends splayed for less than we could buy A36 angle.

The DOT speced the re-roll because they found the signs could be hit by a car and not be bent.Worst damage would be a broken rivet or two.

wierdscience
08-19-2010, 11:26 PM
How do you know? All the bed frames I've tried to machine are made from the worst sort of (s)crap: it's a swiss cheese of random hard and soft spots. Pretty good bet it's the dregs of a scrapyard pour.



Maybe 20 years ago it was, but now it's made out of 7x10 mini-lathes that were returned to Harbor Freight. :p Remember Mike hit a spark plug when he machined the base of his tailstock?

Did you checkout the link I posted? It's in they're product offering and I have bought it from them before.Garage door tracks are another product of re-roll.

Do you honestly think 1-1/2 x 1/8" A36 will support two people doin the wild thing?:D :D

http://www.jssteel.com/applications/index.asp

Evan
08-19-2010, 11:29 PM
Coat hanger wire must be made from reasonably clean and predictable material. If it wasn't they wouldn't be able to draw wire from it.

wierdscience
08-19-2010, 11:37 PM
[QUOTE=Evan]Coat hanger wire must be made from reasonably clean and predictable material. If it wasn't they wouldn't be able to draw wire from it.[/QUOTE

Yep,and the act of making hangers requires decent material too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85JBsoyufcM

Besides,if you haven't read the label on your welding wire lately.....maybe you shouldn't:)

boslab
08-20-2010, 12:06 AM
Regarding the copper coating thing, It would seem that the Cu coating may in some way contribute to the stability of the weld pool by altering surface tension.
With copper prices as high as they are at present sticking it in for fun would be ludicrus.
Cu has long been used in the steel industry to test the effectiveness of secondary steelmaking units, copper is added then samples are pulled at regular intervals to see if the Vacuum degasser or CASob or whatever is working and mixing properly, ie producing a homogenous cast [ improperly mixed results in different chemistry througout the ladle, you wouldent think so as its molten but it does happen] anyway Cu is very soluble in steel and goes through it like a dose of salts.
This may well be the reason for it, there are Cu bearing rods that have dissolved Cu as well as a coating as seen by the previous analysis, trhere are also high level Cu treated rods to deal with Corten steels [copper bearing corrosion resistant, eg containers and ships.
Welding rods are wire drawn not extruded, it would not be possible to force steel hydrostatically through a welding rod size apature, maybee possible with a thick aluminium rod >3mm.
mark

Evan
08-20-2010, 12:56 AM
If you look at the above spec sheet the amount of copper is vanishingly small. Maximum spec is only 0.3%. That isn't even as much as other permitted impurities in the base metal being welded let alone the small contribution from the filler rod.

Filler rod isn't even required for some type of gas welding. This is especially the case on outside corner and mitre welds on thinwall material. Also, gas welding will produce a superior weld on 4130 tubing. 4130 is commonly used for structural parts in aircraft such as landing gear struts, engine mounts, control rods and columns, seat bases, foot pedals, control cable pulley brackets and on older "sticks and rags" aircraft like the J3 Cub, the entire fuselage skeleton. It is also used in motorcycle frames and some bicycle parts.

The main advantage of gas over electrical processes is that the heat affected zone is more gradual and may be controlled during the welding process. Electrical welding dumps in a great deal of energy in a hurry. This minimizes the HAZ but that isn't always a good thing. Since there is much less heat in the weld area the weld can sometimes cool so fast as to be air quenched. This can produce a very hard and brittle weld. By using gas the cooling rate of the weld can be controlled. The torch is played over the weld area while being gradually withdrawn.

boslab
08-20-2010, 02:17 AM
Evan, i can see what your getting at, most sheet steels have a Cu max as suggested however what i'm theorising is that the Cu coating somehow stabalises the weld pool and aids with wetting if you know what i mean, it wouldent take much i think, but this is just conjecture on my part, i have no evidence as yet but it seems worth investigating.
Apart from that O/A is great to learn, i find it quite relaxing, good visibility compared to tig and keeps you warm in winter!, i think everyone should at least learn some basics.
mark

troyken
08-23-2010, 12:00 PM
I'd like to report that this thread inspired me to try gas welding this weekend. It so happens that I went to a garage sale on Saturday and found a large roll of mild steel wire for next to nothing. Hmm... sounds like this would be good for welding wire as the guys mentioned in this thread. Sunday, I got out the tanks and tried it on 1/16 rusty mild steel plate. I ground the plate clean and cleaned plate and wire with acetone.
Set regulators at 3psi each with #2 tip. Started to weld and I cound not believe how well it worked. I have brazed for many years and learned to arc weld and was always afraid of gas welding as being too hard to make a good weld. I always defaulted to arc for all welding. Thanks for inspiring me to learn a new skill. I intend to practice much more to improve my ability.

Mcgyver
08-23-2010, 12:06 PM
That copper coated stuff at the welding store, ask for their un-coated hi-tensile gas welding rod, generally 3/32 is a good all around size.


last time i bought some the welding store had gone back to plain, something about the copper was a bad experiment meant for pipe guys but they hated it, or some such tale.

The welding rod is cheap. Just ask for it in any welding supply place. So cheap I use it as bar stock when smaller sizes are required :). I keep stock up to 1/8 but only use the smaller diameters for actual welding

Mcgyver
08-23-2010, 12:13 PM
edit, Evan, i mistook your meaning and agree with what you wrote

the lower heat of electric is one of electric's advantages....not as much heat is put into the work so things are as subject to warping. I put things together with thin material by hitting it with short electric bead that i couldn't with gas because the gas puts so much more heat into it, temps are elevated over a larger area. Gas i like because things are easier to control resulting in a neater bead with less filler material

boslab
08-23-2010, 11:27 PM
You cant beat gas for thin stuff, i especially like box making where if you have a good fit you dont need a filler, just run the torch along to seam it, ive never degreased with solvent before, suppose it cant hurt!
regards
mark

saltmine
08-23-2010, 11:47 PM
Back in the "olden days" I worked in a muffler shop. We didn't use a MIG welder, and we didn't have a computerized tubing bender or mandrel bent tubing.

Every exhaust system was hand formed (with a tubing bender, and the "MK-1 eyeball" of course), cut and welded with an oxyacetylene gas "airframe" torch. The system had to be "air tight" from one end to the other, including the "blind" welds on top of the tubing. All we used for filler rod was 1/8" and 5/32" copper flashed welding rod. I actually prefer copper coating because, unlike some people, I actually had to use plain steel rod, which had rusted...it was no fun at all. We did not braze any exhaust system parts.

I did this for roughly 8 years. I enjoyed every minute of it, and never had a complaint on my work. I built custom systems, show car systems, and movie prop systems (Yes, that's right....I actually repaired the exhaust on the original "BatMobile" and got to drive it back to the "Dean Jefferies Studios" when it was done. Interesting drive, I might add)

Sadly, I thought I could do better and took a job building jigs and fixtures for a hospital furniture manufacturer and spent the next four years TIG welding stainless steel medical equipment, and building prototypes (I was the only welder they had that could read blueprints).

Ken_Shea
08-24-2010, 12:14 AM
All this copper coated/uncoated discussion caused me to go check what I have left of 3/32 uncoated rod from when I owned a muffler franchise, any one remember "Major Muffler"?
Any way, have about 50 pounds of it left, I remember when I purchased it at 90 a pound how I felt I was getting ripped off, just looked, now it's $6-$7 a pound, some places even higher, how in the world is that, it's more expensive then some hi-tech electric welding rod.
That 50 pound box would likely cost me $300 today, or more. insane!

Ken_Shea
08-24-2010, 12:28 AM
In my original post about using uncoated Hi-Tensile rod was mentioned, never really asked, cared or wondered what that meant, at the time my only interest was that is was free of any copper coating.
Here is the specs of that rod.
"RG60 AWS A 5.2 CLASS RG60
RG60 provides a higher tensile strength plain Carbon Mild Steel for
general purpose oxy-acetylene welding of Mild and Low Carbon Steels. It
is bare (non Copper-coated) but due to higher levels of manganese and
silicon, no flux is required. RG60 has been designed to provide porosity-
free welds and higher tensile strength (as welded). The higher levels of
Manganese and Silicon increase fluidity of the weld pool, creating a
smoother appearance and resulting in minimal post-weld grinding. Tensile
strength: 67,000 psi (specs call for 60,000 minimum). Elongation is 25%."

lazlo
08-24-2010, 08:26 AM
In my original post about using uncoated Hi-Tensile rod was mentioned, never really asked, cared or wondered what that meant, at the time my only interest was that is was free of any copper coating.
Here is the specs of that rod.
"[I][SIZE=3][SIZE=4][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]RG60 AWS A 5.2 CLASS RG60
[SIZE=3]RG60

Like most other welding wire/rod, the '60' stands for 60 KPsi as welded tensile strength. So RG45 also mentioned earlier is 45 KPsi, and there's R65 as well. 'R' stands for welding rod (as opposed to 'E' "electrode" for MIG and Stick). 'G' stands for gas rod. RG 45, 60, and 65 come in coated or uncoated (which as I stated earlier in the thread was why I was dubious about it being used for the pull dies).

Mcgyver
08-24-2010, 09:26 AM
on this copper coating debate, I'm left wondering how would you ever get the coating on, which appears to be plated and both very consistent and with a good finish, until long after the rod was formed?

are you guys still able to get the copper coated stuff? my local store as switch back to plain saying the weldors don't like it, no idea whether that's true or not

lazlo
08-24-2010, 09:33 AM
are you guys still able to get the copper coated stuff? my local store as switch back to plain saying the weldors don't like it, no idea whether that's true or not

The local airgas carries RG45 in both bare and copper-coated, and it's easy to find both online. Is it possible the copper is a flux?

http://www.airgas.com/browse/product_List.aspx?page=2&catID=11

http://store.cyberweld.com/hargstwerodw.html

Evan
08-24-2010, 10:32 AM
I don't think it acts as a flux but in researching that I ran across this. I haven't looked into it any further but this is news to me.


Never attempt to use Mapp Gas on copper. Mapp Gas and copper are another potentially highly explosive mix.

gnm109
08-24-2010, 10:40 AM
on this copper coating debate, I'm left wondering how would you ever get the coating on, which appears to be plated and both very consistent and with a good finish, until long after the rod was formed?

are you guys still able to get the copper coated stuff? my local store as switch back to plain saying the weldors don't like it, no idea whether that's true or not


That's a very good question. The answer is that it is plated. If it were somehow added as part of the drawing process, it would have some marks on it. The stuff I've used looks plated and very even.

I have some copper-coated rod that is rated for TIG. (can't remember the number right now). It works very well......

Airgas has copper or plain, take your pick.

ulav8r
08-24-2010, 01:23 PM
are you guys still able to get the copper coated stuff? my local store as switch back to plain saying the weldors don't like it, no idea whether that's true or notToday 07:26 AM
Maybe the local weldors don't like the price difference.

saltmine
08-24-2010, 02:33 PM
I ordered 40lbs of it from McMaster-Carr...no problem.

lazlo
08-24-2010, 02:50 PM
. The answer is that it is plated. If it were somehow added as part of the drawing process, it would have some marks on it. The stuff I've used looks plated and very even.

If you've ever used gouge rod, where the copper coating on the graphite rod is actually part of the electrode, the copper is thick enough to peel off and cut the hell out of you. Seems like if the copper was actually an active participant in the electrode, it would need to be thicker.

To be honest, I've oxy-welded bare and copper-coated, and never noticed a difference.