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MuellerNick
08-22-2010, 11:50 AM
Hi!
Yesterday, I took home my new-to-me shaper with the help of a friend. Came home 3 in the morning, had a few beer to get tired, and today invited a bunch for grilling and to show off my shaper. They were all jealous. But none (including me) really know wether the would really need one. Anyhow, it is an incredible pleasure just to watch it working.

Here's the adverticement of the one I bought. http://www.maschinensucher.de/ma2/A576114.html

I'll post pictures and will make a video, so you can watch the weird kinematics.

There is a story behind that shaper.
I bought it in the former GDR. There, private businesses were not allowed, but a few exceptions. One was the one man shop who specialized in punching tools for the watch industry. He was the only one able to make the tools for pointers, even the most complex ones. He even was in the position to accept or reject jobs when he didn't like them.
After the fall of the wall, he no longer got jobs from the now gone factories and no longer was competitive with shops that had EDM. So '94 he gave up (and he already was old enough to retire). Now he is dement and can't answer any question. His complete shop now is being sold, and I got that diamond for 350.

I'll find tasks for the shaper and keep him in honor. Maybe I'll even start making punches...


Nick

Allen Hunt
08-22-2010, 12:06 PM
That is nice! Is it a vertical shaper? I was expecting to see a fairly simple shaper, but this one looks unusual to say the least!

Allen

Deja Vu
08-22-2010, 12:07 PM
But none (including me) really know wether the would really need one. Anyhow, it is an incredible pleasure just to watch it working.
Ah yes! I love bringing mechanisms home too just to fiddle with and appreciate the actions....with hopes to find uses for. Usually I take them all apart to get understanding and bring them back to their near new glorious appearance. Have fun!

willmac
08-22-2010, 12:08 PM
Nick -

In words from Star trek, "A shaper Jim, but not as we know it". That looks like a superb machine, but I will need to see a video to understand how it works. I assume the cutter is moving vertically, like a slotter?

Bill

MuellerNick
08-22-2010, 12:20 PM
That looks like a superb machine, but I will need to see a video to understand how it works. I assume the cutter is moving vertically, like a slotter?

Yes, that shaper is working vertically. The interesting thing is, that the bit makes a radius at the end of the stroke. And it even cuts in the radius. That's why it is especially useful for making punches. It makes an radius at the "foot" of the punch to reduce stress in the tool.
Also note the microscope in the picture. You get a perfect picture where the tool cuts. Remember the fine work! I got two microscopes for it. And a lifetime supply of bits! A lot of special jigs and of course the included rotary table.

The kinematics can't be explained by words. There are so many levers ... nuts!
We really had to let it run to understand how it works. An old steam engine -as impressive as it is to watch all the levers- is like a kids birthday compared to this. I am already completely satisfied by the fact that I just own this shaper. Even if I would never use it, it will always be a joy to watch. Call me crazy, but I fell in love with here.

Only the manual was lost, I'll have to hunt for one.


Nick

TGTool
08-22-2010, 12:31 PM
<snip>
The kinematics can't be explained by words. There are so many levers ... nuts!
<snip>
Only the manual was lost, I'll have to hunt for one.

Nick

The manual was probably confiscated by the security police. Anyone who could understand the machine might be a real threat. Keep watching behind you. :D

Elninio
08-22-2010, 12:48 PM
That is nice! Is it a vertical shaper? I was expecting to see a fairly simple shaper, but this one looks unusual to say the least!

Allen

It's a vertical gear shaper - you stack a bunch of gear blanks like coins and cut them all at once (faster than one at a time, right?). IMO it's more useful than a regular shaper (for the industry i mean, not for us HSM guys).

MuellerNick
08-22-2010, 01:12 PM
No, it is not a gear shaper. It lacks a connection between rotary axis and traversal feed. It is a punch shaper, as I already said.

The obtainable results are similar to the Gack K150 shaper: http://www.csparks.com/Gack/index.xhtml. But the Gack is horizontal and has a way more modern design of the body. My Rula is the follow up of the Thiel (can't find the type right now) that was pre-WW-II. The Thiel was then sold under the name Ruhla by the GDR. Ruhla is a city in the ex-GDR.


Nick

Too_Many_Tools
08-22-2010, 01:19 PM
Hi!
Yesterday, I took home my new-to-me shaper with the help of a friend. Came home 3 in the morning, had a few beer to get tired, and today invited a bunch for grilling and to show off my shaper. They were all jealous. But none (including me) really know wether the would really need one. Anyhow, it is an incredible pleasure just to watch it working.

Here's the adverticement of the one I bought. http://www.maschinensucher.de/ma2/A576114.html

I'll post pictures and will make a video, so you can watch the weird kinematics.

There is a story behind that shaper.
I bought it in the former GDR. There, private businesses were not allowed, but a few exceptions. One was the one man shop who specialized in punching tools for the watch industry. He was the only one able to make the tools for pointers, even the most complex ones. He even was in the position to accept or reject jobs when he didn't like them.
After the fall of the wall, he no longer got jobs from the now gone factories and no longer was competitive with shops that had EDM. So '94 he gave up (and he already was old enough to retire). Now he is dement and can't answer any question. His complete shop now is being sold, and I got that diamond for 350.

I'll find tasks for the shaper and keep him in honor. Maybe I'll even start making punches...


Nick


Congrats ...looking for forward to the pictures and video.

TMT

MuellerNick
08-22-2010, 01:21 PM
Here are two pictures of work samples:
http://motor-manufaktur.de/werkstatt/ludwig-gack/pics/h20-10.jpg
http://motor-manufaktur.de/werkstatt/ludwig-gack/pics/h20-05.jpg

Note the fillet at the base of the punches. They are the special feature of my shaper and of the Gack K150 or extremely rare variants of the Gack H-20


Nick

willmac
08-22-2010, 01:36 PM
Nick -

I'm highly impressed; that is a very interesting machine, well worth preserving.
I didn't realise that Thiel (Ruhla) made this type of machine. I have a Thiel 159 (West German, Kassel) and although it is a distant cousin to your machine, if the quality is similar you have a really good machine.

TGTool
08-22-2010, 01:40 PM
It's a vertical gear shaper - you stack a bunch of gear blanks like coins and cut them all at once (faster than one at a time, right?). IMO it's more useful than a regular shaper (for the industry i mean, not for us HSM guys).

On this machine you'd need to use a single tooth cutter shaped like the space between teeth and index the gear blanks just as you might doing it in a mill.

A gear shaper, by contrast, rotates the cutter and the workpiece synchronously and "generates" the tooth profile which is not the direct inverse of the cutter shape. If you can visualize the action of a gear hob you can transfer the essentials to a gear shaper.

Elninio
08-22-2010, 01:49 PM
Here are two pictures of work samples:
http://motor-manufaktur.de/werkstatt/ludwig-gack/pics/h20-10.jpg
http://motor-manufaktur.de/werkstatt/ludwig-gack/pics/h20-05.jpg

Note the fillet at the base of the punches. They are the special feature of my shaper and of the Gack K150 or extremely rare variants of the Gack H-20


Nick

Ah! those kind of punches ... I didn't know they made them all the way back then ...

MuellerNick
08-22-2010, 04:09 PM
Here is a short video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f1EPsXQ1mw), just to give you an impression.
I'll make a better one, you bet!


Nick

willmac
08-22-2010, 04:38 PM
Nick -

Fascinating. I have never seen anything like that before.

Mcgyver
08-22-2010, 04:44 PM
very neat machine. Any particular use in mind for it or just an appreciation combined with available space....that motion seems fairly specific for the shape of punches in makes?

SDL
08-22-2010, 04:52 PM
...that motion seems fairly specific for the shape of punches in makes?

Can the amount of rotation be increased, decreased, or removed completely to just t leave the vertical movement?

Steve Larner

Michael Edwards
08-22-2010, 05:01 PM
Very cool shaper. The video was great, I would love to see a video of it making some chips. Thanks for sharing.

ME

MuellerNick
08-22-2010, 05:06 PM
Can the amount of rotation be increased, decreased, or removed completely to just t leave the vertical movement?


I can't tell you completely. At least, the angle of the rotating action can be modified. The radius is adjusted by different stickouts of the bit.

For the use:
Well ... look, that's a real beauty! What do you make with your girlfriend? :D

I'll use it for very fine work. Certainly I'll make keyed shafts with here. I'll try to find out setups that are undoable with an other tool just to puzzle people. :p
And really, I might try to make stamping tools when I find an useful application.

I had the space available, I like shapers, I like intricate mechanical machines. I just had to buy it.

My ... name is ... Nick. I ... I ... I do like .... I do like tools!

Nick

boslab
08-22-2010, 05:14 PM
a beatifully made self releiving punch and die shaper, you need one!
mark

gwilson
08-22-2010, 06:44 PM
That is GREAT!!! I am sometimes making punches for our home business,and that would be very ideal. I also have a Deckel fp1. It has a punch making attachment that I don't have. However,your machine looks like it could do a better job. The relieving attachment,and the ability to see exactly where the machine is cutting are most excellent!!!

lynnl
08-22-2010, 07:22 PM
Hey, no apologies or justifications are necessary!

That machine is worth owning, even if you never make a damn thing with it. :D

MuellerNick
08-22-2010, 07:27 PM
I am sometimes making punches for our home business,

I welcome some pictures here in this thread.
The Deckel die-milling accessory is very hard to find. And if you find one, the price would be very demanding I guess.

The advantage of the Ruhla-setup is almost perfect visibility. You look at the start of the cut, so no burrs will be seen. Also, the chips don't hit your face. A nice feature. :rolleyes:

Included were almost 50 tool bits. I have counted 15 levers, handles and places to adjust something.

Nick

lazlo
08-22-2010, 09:16 PM
Here is a short video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f1EPsXQ1mw), just to give you an impression.

Wow, that is a strange shaper. The Gack I understand, but this seems very special-purpose?


I have counted 15 levers, handles and places to adjust something.

You sure it's not a Quorn? :D

Mcgyver
08-22-2010, 11:53 PM
For the use:
Well ... look, that's a real beauty!

more than an adequate reason, I was just curious.....you now have a real advantage over other shops, you just need to figure out for what :)

oil mac
08-23-2010, 08:21 AM
Very impressive Muller, In layout it is almost the same type of construction to the British Essex die &punch shaper, In fact i am inclined to wonder if the Essex was made under licence from Thiel ?
It is a really high class machine tool and has obviously been loved and looked after by the previous owner
If using it for cutting internal keyways, i wondr if the relieving motion can be cancelled out, But for cutting punches to see these machines carving the radius at the bottom of the cut is poetry in motion, When i worked in glasgow many years ago one of the neighbouring shops had one,
covet covet covet ! I want one now:eek: :eek: :D

Alistair Hosie
08-23-2010, 08:46 AM
sehr schon :DAlistair

Bob Farr
08-23-2010, 08:52 AM
*** I am already completely satisfied by the fact that I just own this shaper. Even if I would never use it, it will always be a joy to watch. Call me crazy, but I fell in love with here. *** Nick

We understand completely Nick! Fantastic find!

Bob

Allen Hunt
08-23-2010, 09:18 AM
Nick,

Thanks for the video! Hope we get to see a video of it making chips!

Allen

MuellerNick
08-23-2010, 09:38 AM
Thanks for the video! Hope we get to see a video of it making chips!


That was just a quick and dirty shot by a friend with his cellular.
Right now, I'm making the mixdown of 9 minutes pure machine-porn.

A part two will follow, maybe tomorrow. As soon as part one is uploaded, I'll give you a note.


you just need to figure out for what

Couldn't say it better. :)


Nick

MuellerNick
08-23-2010, 11:40 AM
OK, here is the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7klunkuScXs).

Enjoy!
Nick

Peter S
08-23-2010, 03:11 PM
Nick,

Great to see your machine. Back when I was a Toolmaking apprentice, I did my "advanced certificate" technical school training in a toolroom which had a German punch shaper. I didn't get to use it however. At that time I knew of another one in use as well (around 1982). However, when I was back at work and making press tools, I still made punches the hard way, using a mill to make all the radii!

A long while ago I posted an advert for a Ruhla mill on the PM forum, will try to find it. Interesting to hear the connection with Thiel. I have a Thiel bandsaw.

Ruhla mill advert: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/PeterS/Ruhlamill.jpg

Thiel history: http://www.lathes.co.uk/thiel/

MuellerNick
08-23-2010, 05:05 PM
Somebody asked wether and how far the tilting angle of the tool bit can be adjusted:
It can, from 0 to 90(?). But 0 is a bit useless, because there is no clapper box.

Stroke is 110 mm max.


Nick

boslab
08-23-2010, 11:15 PM
I dont beleive you can adjust the tool angle, you could make it into a giant radius i suppose, the dieshop in a firm i worked for had one that was used to make copper electrodes for edm machines to make extrusion dies, or to modify them [Alusuisse], they were all parallel, i dont think more than 2 diemakers used the thing, or knew how to for that matter, yours however is the same age as me, and is in better condition, i watched the vidio twice as its so shapernotic [my own word for the effect shapers have on me]
was that a bit of an excell die filer on the floor? i have one for releiving dies but that borders on shapernotic too!
beautiful machine
mark

MuellerNick
08-24-2010, 02:59 AM
was that a bit of an excell die filer on the floor? i have one for releiving dies but that borders on shapernotic too!


shapernotic! That needs no translation or explanation. I have the same disease. :)

I think you mean the arm? No, that's the arm belonging to the rotary table (beginning of video). I have no filer. But I got one promised.


dont beleive you can adjust the tool angle, you could make it into a giant radius i suppose

I meant the angle the tool rotates after the end of the linear stroke. This angle can be adjusted. The radius is changed by adjusting the stickout of the tool.

In the second video with chips, I'll be more technical and show the adjustments and how it makes those fine curly chips. But that might take a week.

Nick

MuellerNick
08-28-2010, 02:50 PM
And now making chips ...
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnQ2eGpWqiQ)


Nick

wierdscience
08-28-2010, 11:25 PM
Nice machine Nick,quite unique.

What do you intend to make with it?

dewat
08-29-2010, 12:58 AM
Nice machine Nick, thanks for posting, green with envy.

Is that a shaper making chips, or a chipper making shapes ?

Sorry, I couldn't help myself, I promise not to do it again. :D

uncle pete
08-29-2010, 10:51 AM
Nick,
Really cool and interesting machine. Totally amazing what that machine can do. I can think of a lot of jobs it would be real useful for.

Pete