PDA

View Full Version : OT - Downloading on Dialup



Too_Many_Tools
08-22-2010, 08:04 PM
A question for the group...

While using dialup I have come across sites where during a download (usually a PDF), the download process will stop.

After repeating the process, the downloading always stops at the same point (so many MB) and it doesn't not seem to matter whether it is a download through IE or if Adobe Reader is open.

Any ideas what is going on?

It would seem to be a problem on the transmitting end.

Thanks for any suggestions.

TMT

tlfamm
08-22-2010, 09:09 PM
I am an inveterate info-junkie, and have downloaded hundreds of gigabytes of PDF files over a phone modem. The best you can do with 56 Kb dialup is roughly 18 megabytes per hour.

Unless you have a well-endowed system (lots of memory, fast processor(s), appropriate paging space, _and_ a real modem instead of a soft modem, the fundamental rule is: hands off of the computer while a download is in progress.





1. PDF files can be very large - I think the largest I ever encountered was about 400 megabytes. Large files will place a heavier load on the system and the net than small files.

2. Unless it is a small PDF document (10 pages or less) do not attempt to read it online; download it and read it locally.

3. Are you using a download manager? Some servers will mistake their behavior for something malign, and terminate the connection. (Google Books is such a site - maybe scribd as well.) I actually logged an error report with Google over this (4 years ago) - but they weren't interested in changing the behavior of their watchdog software.

=============

I had a very well-endowed system with a soft modem - and if I didn't scrupulously follow the hands-off rule, I would eventually choke the system during a download.


I wonder if the server in question is arbitrarily terminating your connections after a certain time-interval, one sufficiently long to service cable-modem users (for example), but insufficiently long for telephone modem users. It's rare for that to occur, but not impossible.

tlfamm
08-22-2010, 09:40 PM
Further thought: the regularity of your failure mode brings to mind exactly what happened to me once Google Books decided I was a content-thief:

My IP address was placed on a list, and for a finite period of time (roughly 1 week as I recall, any attempt to download any file from Google Books would proceed only so far, and then abort.

Are you on somebody's hit list?

RB211
08-22-2010, 11:21 PM
Further thought: the regularity of your failure mode brings to mind exactly what happened to me once Google Books decided I was a content-thief:

My IP address was placed on a list, and for a finite period of time (roughly 1 week as I recall, any attempt to download any file from Google Books would proceed only so far, and then abort.

Are you on somebody's hit list?
With most dialup services, you get a different IP address when you reconnect.
I would use a download manager like free download manager. It allows you to RESUME a download.
I feel for you... Can't you go to a Mcdonalds and use their free wifi?

squirrel
08-22-2010, 11:27 PM
A question for the group...

While using dialup I have come across sites where during a download (usually a PDF), the download process will stop.

After repeating the process, the downloading always stops at the same point (so many MB) and it doesn't not seem to matter whether it is a download through IE or if Adobe Reader is open.

Any ideas what is going on?

It would seem to be a problem on the transmitting end.

Thanks for any suggestions.

TMT
post a link so I can see it. Have you updated adobe in the last couple of years? if not try that it has some issues a couple of years ago.
I could also be a hijack site and your firewall might be blocking something.
Its best not to download unless it is the manufactures website, most of the sites that offer "free" manuals and other things have a hidden agenda.

gnm109
08-22-2010, 11:32 PM
It sounds like insufficient memory (RAM).........

Ken_Shea
08-23-2010, 12:00 AM
TMT,
We may not agree on aged tires :D
but I can sure sympathize on the download with dial up, that quitting in the same spot was common for me as well.
Never found out why, sometimes it fixed itself at a later time.

What I did was ask a friend with a faster connection to download and zip it, then email it to me.
That took care of the problem, however, doesn't help when you want or need it faster.

Robin R
08-23-2010, 12:17 AM
I'm on cable, but for some time now I haven't been able to download PDF's larger than about 20 MB. That didn't used to be the case, I was able to download files of almost any size. I wonder if in my case, the cable company has put a cutoff in place at that file size. It isn't the PDF downloader I'm using, because I have the same problem with Foxit and Adobe. I know the cable company is sensitive about the amount of bandwidth used, as they regularly cut off my sons account, because he has exeeded his monthly limit.

Too_Many_Tools
08-23-2010, 12:35 AM
I wonder if the server in question is arbitrarily terminating your connections after a certain time-interval, one sufficiently long to service cable-modem users (for example), but insufficiently long for telephone modem users. It's rare for that to occur, but not impossible.

I suspect it might be this.

Awhile back I had a similar problem and was able to download the file on the same computer...over a borrowed wifi.

And then moved on..

This time I would like to understand the problem.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
08-23-2010, 12:37 AM
Further thought: the regularity of your failure mode brings to mind exactly what happened to me once Google Books decided I was a content-thief:

My IP address was placed on a list, and for a finite period of time (roughly 1 week as I recall, any attempt to download any file from Google Books would proceed only so far, and then abort.

Are you on somebody's hit list?

LOL...well I am "really popular" in some places.

I don't think it is a IP address thing but thanks for mentioning it...good to know it can happen.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
08-23-2010, 12:38 AM
With most dialup services, you get a different IP address when you reconnect.
I would use a download manager like free download manager. It allows you to RESUME a download.
I feel for you... Can't you go to a Mcdonalds and use their free wifi?


LOL...that is my fallback plan.

Meanwhile I am trying to understand why it is happening.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
08-23-2010, 12:45 AM
TMT,
We may not agree on aged tires :D
but I can sure sympathize on the download with dial up, that quitting in the same spot was common for me as well.
Never found out why, sometimes it fixed itself at a later time.

What I did was ask a friend with a faster connection to download and zip it, then email it to me.
That took care of the problem, however, doesn't help when you want or need it faster.

No problem with the tire discussion ;<)...I only learn from others by discussing stuff.

I have other options to get the file but I want to figure this problem out because there are times where dialup/satellite is the only option.

Believe it or not, most of the country still doesn't have accessible hispeed Internet.

What a pain.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
08-23-2010, 12:49 AM
I'm on cable, but for some time now I haven't been able to download PDF's larger than about 20 MB. That didn't used to be the case, I was able to download files of almost any size. I wonder if in my case, the cable company has put a cutoff in place at that file size. It isn't the PDF downloader I'm using, because I have the same problem with Foxit and Adobe. I know the cable company is sensitive about the amount of bandwidth used, as they regularly cut off my sons account, because he has exeeded his monthly limit.

I would ask them.

Let us know if that is the case.

It drives me nuts to spend hours trying to fix a problem and then find out that some idiot on the other end changed a setting and didn't tell me.

TMT

Ken_Shea
08-23-2010, 12:53 AM
Believe it or not, most of the country still doesn't have accessible hispeed Internet.

What a pain.

TMT

The USA ranks #18 on the the Worlds internet speed, go figure.

Too_Many_Tools
08-23-2010, 12:53 AM
It sounds like insufficient memory (RAM).........

Thought of that.

I tried downloading larger files...and they worked.


TMT

Mcgyver
08-23-2010, 01:06 AM
Believe it or not, most of the country still doesn't have accessible hispeed Internet.


is that by square mile or population?

I have family in a rural area, waiting for high speed is kind of in the good luck department because the infrastructure cost vs p[otenital subscriber base is out wack...my brother's even looked into putting a microwave tower and reselling. Seems very frustrating

Too_Many_Tools
08-23-2010, 03:28 AM
is that by square mile or population?

I have family in a rural area, waiting for high speed is kind of in the good luck department because the infrastructure cost vs p[otenital subscriber base is out wack...my brother's even looked into putting a microwave tower and reselling. Seems very frustrating

Square mile.

It is a national disgrace for the nation who invented the Internet.

https://www.communicationsdirectnews.com/do.php/130/40978

And if you have broadband, you better read this.

https://www.communicationsdirectnews.com/do.php/130/41293

And for everyone...it looks like we are all getting the shaft.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20100817/tc_pcworld/netneutralitydebatedividedonfamiliarpoliticallines _1

TMT

tlfamm
08-23-2010, 07:39 AM
With most dialup services, you get a different IP address when you reconnect.
I would use a download manager like free download manager. It allows you to RESUME a download.
I feel for you... Can't you go to a Mcdonalds and use their free wifi?


IP address-allocation behavior is entirely configurable by the ISP, and is driven by how much demand versus how large a pool of IP addresses is available for a given geographic region. I almost always received the same address, unless a long period of time elapsed between log-ins. (That period is also configurable by the ISP: it might be a few days, even a few weeks.)


Download managers:

1. Whether or not a download is resume-able is dependent on both the client and the server. EG: some file-server companies, such as Rapidshare, allow a download to be resumed _only_ if you are a paying client. Freeloaders (a sizeable portion of their clientele), are not afforded the privilege of resumed downloads, and for a telephone-dialup user, downloading large files from Rapidshare is very problematic: the longer the connection must remain open, the higher the probability that the connection will be broken or become hung. The result: the download must be restarted from scratch - a rather myopic policy, to be sure.

2. Some sites (I mentioned Google Books) are sensitive to large-scale content theft, and use watchdog software to monitor the behavior of downloading clients. Too many bytes per unit time, too many connections per unit time, and you may become blacklisted, or have the download terminated. Most DM's can be configured to restrict the # of connections, but there are other behavioral criteria being evaluated as well.

>>> I feel for you

(chuckle) well, I have cable-based net access today, so downloads aren't usually a problem. But: unless one is heavily into videos, realtime gaming, etc I still feel that telephone internet access is a perfectly reasonable and affordable way to go. If I had to go back, I could do it - with some period of adjustment :)

Too_Many_Tools
08-23-2010, 12:47 PM
IP address-allocation behavior is entirely configurable by the ISP, and is driven by how much demand versus how large a pool of IP addresses is available for a given geographic region. I almost always received the same address, unless a long period of time elapsed between log-ins. (That period is also configurable by the ISP: it might be a few days, even a few weeks.)


Download managers:

1. Whether or not a download is resume-able is dependent on both the client and the server. EG: some file-server companies, such as Rapidshare, allow a download to be resumed _only_ if you are a paying client. Freeloaders (a sizeable portion of their clientele), are not afforded the privilege of resumed downloads, and for a telephone-dialup user, downloading large files from Rapidshare is very problematic: the longer the connection must remain open, the higher the probability that the connection will be broken or become hung. The result: the download must be restarted from scratch - a rather myopic policy, to be sure.

2. Some sites (I mentioned Google Books) are sensitive to large-scale content theft, and use watchdog software to monitor the behavior of downloading clients. Too many bytes per unit time, too many connections per unit time, and you may become blacklisted, or have the download terminated. Most DM's can be configured to restrict the # of connections, but there are other behavioral criteria being evaluated as well.

>>> I feel for you

(chuckle) well, I have cable-based net access today, so downloads aren't usually a problem. But: unless one is heavily into videos, realtime gaming, etc I still feel that telephone internet access is a perfectly reasonable and affordable way to go. If I had to go back, I could do it - with some period of adjustment :)

Thanks for the info.

I am downloading directly from IE...no other download managers.

I find that I can download other files from other sites with the same physical setup and same connection.

TMT

Orrin
08-24-2010, 01:31 AM
I'm on dial-up and have the same problem; but, it is not limited to PDF files. Pictures behave in the same way.

It seems to depend upon the site in question. Most sites seem to have some sort of download manager that cuts off the process after a given amount of time. It's their way of keeping their systems from being monopolized by slowpoke connections like yours and mine.

On the other hand, some commercial sites are very "patient." Seeing as how their business depends upon maintaining the connections, no matter how slow, they'll continue the download. For instance, Netflix may time out on graphics; but, not on text. Enco is much the same way, although I wish Enco would cut down on some of their graphics; they take forever to download.

Every Thursday a coffee and ice-cream shop in town features a dollar-a-scoop special; so, the wife and I load up our laptops and enjoy their broadband hot-spot while we pig out on some of the best ice cream, ever.

Orrin

oldbikerdude37
08-24-2010, 01:37 AM
the problem is the fools who have dial up, that's what we had in 1999. what is wrong with you TMT, YOU HAVE NO MONEY? HOW ABOUT YOU GET A JOB?

Maybe Obama will give you free internet so you dont have to work anymore.

Ken_Shea
08-24-2010, 01:45 AM
the problem is the fools who have dial up, that's what we had in 1999. what is wrong with you TMT, YOU HAVE NO MONEY? HOW ABOUT YOU GET A JOB?

Maybe Obama will give you free internet so you dont have to work anymore.

Have another drink and then go to bed oldbikerdude37.
Get at least 8 hours rest, it'll help that nasty attitude.

Too_Many_Tools
08-24-2010, 02:19 PM
the problem is the fools who have dial up, that's what we had in 1999. what is wrong with you TMT, YOU HAVE NO MONEY? HOW ABOUT YOU GET A JOB?

Maybe Obama will give you free internet so you dont have to work anymore.


LOL...first I have no job and then I do...please make up your mind.

Millions of Americans have only dialup to choose from because the telecom companies are unwilling to run broadband to their locations....they simply don't want to upgrade their infrastructure.

That unwillingness was allowed and aided by the previous Administration.

The current Administration is working to extend broadband to all Americans.

And of course the Party of NO is fighting it tooth and claw.

Try reading some of this...

It is a national disgrace for the nation who invented the Internet.

https://www.communicationsdirectnews....php/130/40978

And if you have broadband, you better read this.

https://www.communicationsdirectnews....php/130/41293

And for everyone...it looks like we are all getting the shaft.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/2010...ticallines _1

I think it is apparent to most people now that the ready access to the Internet will be a key component for productivity and new business in the future.

In my opinion, it is incredibly stupid for this Country not to be in the lead in connecting its population to the Internet.

And note again which Party is trying to prevent it from happening.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
08-24-2010, 02:37 PM
the problem is the fools who have dial up, that's what we had in 1999. what is wrong with you TMT, YOU HAVE NO MONEY? HOW ABOUT YOU GET A JOB?

Maybe Obama will give you free internet so you dont have to work anymore.

Very interesting that you are a mod on another site.

I am glad that you are not a mod on this fine site.

TMT

gnm109
08-24-2010, 03:28 PM
LOL...first I have no job and then I do...please make up your mind.

Millions of Americans have only dialup to choose from because the telecom companies are unwilling to run broadband to their locations....they simply don't want to upgrade their infrastructure.

That unwillingness was allowed and aided by the previous Administration.

The current Administration is working to extend broadband to all Americans.

And of course the Party of NO is fighting it tooth and claw.

Try reading some of this...

It is a national disgrace for the nation who invented the Internet.

https://www.communicationsdirectnews....php/130/40978

And if you have broadband, you better read this.

https://www.communicationsdirectnews....php/130/41293

And for everyone...it looks like we are all getting the shaft.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/2010...ticallines _1

I think it is apparent to most people now that the ready access to the Internet will be a key component for productivity and new business in the future.

In my opinion, it is incredibly stupid for this Country not to be in the lead in connecting its population to the Internet.

And note again which Party is trying to prevent it from happening.

TMT


Your links don't work....I'm on a 6 mb DSL line, by the way.

Let's blame Bush for everything. The present administration hasn't done a thing, let alone high speed.....

whitis
08-24-2010, 03:55 PM
Frequently on dialup this kind of problem can be caused by badly configured routers that interfere with MTU path discovery.

Each network interface/link has a maximum amount it can transfer in one packet (MTU). The computer can set a lower value of MTU than imposed by the hardware for a particular interface and for particular connections. Also, the other side of the link may impose an MTU.

For dialup lines, MTU is usually set smaller. Around 576 bytes typically. The reason being there are no passing lanes on the link - only one packet can be on the link at a time and big packets can tie up the link for a while and prevent other packets, which might be more urgent, from getting through. So your FTP session could make your telnet session almost unusable due to delays, for example. In particular, the router at the other end of your dialup connection probably sets an MTU of 576.

At the beginning of a TCP network connection, each system tells the other what their Maximum Segment Size is, a number which should be less than or equal to the MTU on that network interface. Each side will try to respect the other sides MTU, but somewhere in between a smaller limit may be imposed. A process called MTU path discovery is used to find the largest MTU supported along the link so all packets will be sent smaller than that. Basically, you send a big packet with some bits set to say the packet can't be fragmented. If it runs into a limit along the way, that node on the network is supposed to send an ICMP error message back indicating the maximum size (which doesn't always happen) and misconfigured routers can block ICMP messages. Some incompetent network administrators block all ICMP messages indiscriminantly because a few of them have been abused for network attacks. Even the ones used for attacks exist for a reason and blocking them outright causes trouble.

Windoze in particular tends to advertise an MTU (1480) on dialup connections which is bigger than the router on the other end will permit and makes it hard to set this. Real operating systems allow you to set the MTU with the ifconfig program while configuring a link (and gui frontends can do likewise), so setting the MTU is just a few extra keystrokes on the command to configure a network interface. On windoze, this is hidden in the registry.

TCP/IP has an ability to break packets up into fragments and reassemble them. But this is not supported on all links and the server you are talking to may set the Don't Fragment bit prohibiting this. Since it is more efficient to send the right size packet in the first place, the server will use Path MTU discovery with Don't Fragment set on each packet.

A feature of TCP/IP called congestion avoidance tries to limit the amount of data sent on each TCP connection so that packets don't get dropped on the network. Part of this is slow start. Each tcp connection starts by sending small packets and if it doesn't get an ICMP source quench message it tries a little bigger on the next and so on until the packets are up to the full mtu size.

So, initially, the data gets through because it is in small packets. Then as the packets get bigger, they get clobbered. So you get some data through and then you stop.

If you reconfigure the MTU/RSS on your dialup connection to be less than or equal to the MTU imposed on the other end of your dialup link, the problems should go away, if this is the cause. Try 576.
http://www.internetweekly.org/llarrow/mtumss.html

saltmine
08-24-2010, 05:12 PM
I donno....I've got DSL through telephone lines that I suspect Thomas Edison put up himself. Once the net provider got their act together, it's been alright.

I used to have dial-up, years ago...but I had Windows 3.1 and a 300 Baud modem too. So it didn't matter.

If Osama Obama gets his mitts in it, we'll be using semaphore flags

Orrin
08-24-2010, 10:16 PM
the problem is the fools who have dial up, that's what we had in 1999. what is wrong with you TMT, YOU HAVE NO MONEY? HOW ABOUT YOU GET A JOB?

Well, it's obvious the "37" in your handle is your IQ. Asshole.

In my rural location in a deep canyon the only Internet access I can get is via dial-up. I resent being called a fool by someone who is obviously from a village who has lost its idiot. I am a veteran. I am retired after being gainfully employed during my working entire career. I have never been unemployed a single day in my life; until retirement, that is.

Orrin

Lodsb
08-25-2010, 01:08 AM
Dialup here. Try fixing your operating system. http://goodbye-windows.com
Downloads work just fine, just be patient.

If anyone here can get the full files (check the sizes) from http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/i386/iso-dvd/ with Windows I'd like to hear how you did it. TIA.

Too_Many_Tools
08-25-2010, 01:37 AM
Your links don't work....I'm on a 6 mb DSL line, by the way.

Let's blame Bush for everything. The present administration hasn't done a thing, let alone high speed.....

They do now.

https://www.communicationsdirectnews.com/do.php/130/40978

https://www.communicationsdirectnews.com/do.php/130/41293

http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20100817/tc_pcworld/netneutralitydebatedividedonfamiliarpoliticallines _1

Apparently one cannot cut and paste links on this site.

I give Bush Administration the credit they deserve.

You are welcome to provide any references you want to show me what efforts they supported for Internet advancement...I would like to see them.

If you read the links I have provided, you will see that the current Administration is trying to bring the United State into the current century to catch up with other countries that have surpassed us. When a country has been standing still for eight years, it takes more than 19 months to catch up....especially when the Party of NO is kicking and screaming all the way trying to obstruct progress.

Meanwhile millions of Americans are stuck with overpriced dialup watching pages take minutes to load....

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
08-25-2010, 01:40 AM
I donno....I've got DSL through telephone lines that I suspect Thomas Edison put up himself. Once the net provider got their act together, it's been alright.

I used to have dial-up, years ago...but I had Windows 3.1 and a 300 Baud modem too. So it didn't matter.

If Osama Obama gets his mitts in it, we'll be using semaphore flags

I too have a provider who worked for Edison...as the janitor.

Obama might have to settle for flags since Bush got the flight jacket. ;<)

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
08-25-2010, 01:44 AM
Frequently on dialup this kind of problem can be caused by badly configured routers that interfere with MTU path discovery.

Each network interface/link has a maximum amount it can transfer in one packet (MTU). The computer can set a lower value of MTU than imposed by the hardware for a particular interface and for particular connections. Also, the other side of the link may impose an MTU.

For dialup lines, MTU is usually set smaller. Around 576 bytes typically. The reason being there are no passing lanes on the link - only one packet can be on the link at a time and big packets can tie up the link for a while and prevent other packets, which might be more urgent, from getting through. So your FTP session could make your telnet session almost unusable due to delays, for example. In particular, the router at the other end of your dialup connection probably sets an MTU of 576.

At the beginning of a TCP network connection, each system tells the other what their Maximum Segment Size is, a number which should be less than or equal to the MTU on that network interface. Each side will try to respect the other sides MTU, but somewhere in between a smaller limit may be imposed. A process called MTU path discovery is used to find the largest MTU supported along the link so all packets will be sent smaller than that. Basically, you send a big packet with some bits set to say the packet can't be fragmented. If it runs into a limit along the way, that node on the network is supposed to send an ICMP error message back indicating the maximum size (which doesn't always happen) and misconfigured routers can block ICMP messages. Some incompetent network administrators block all ICMP messages indiscriminantly because a few of them have been abused for network attacks. Even the ones used for attacks exist for a reason and blocking them outright causes trouble.

Windoze in particular tends to advertise an MTU (1480) on dialup connections which is bigger than the router on the other end will permit and makes it hard to set this. Real operating systems allow you to set the MTU with the ifconfig program while configuring a link (and gui frontends can do likewise), so setting the MTU is just a few extra keystrokes on the command to configure a network interface. On windoze, this is hidden in the registry.

TCP/IP has an ability to break packets up into fragments and reassemble them. But this is not supported on all links and the server you are talking to may set the Don't Fragment bit prohibiting this. Since it is more efficient to send the right size packet in the first place, the server will use Path MTU discovery with Don't Fragment set on each packet.

A feature of TCP/IP called congestion avoidance tries to limit the amount of data sent on each TCP connection so that packets don't get dropped on the network. Part of this is slow start. Each tcp connection starts by sending small packets and if it doesn't get an ICMP source quench message it tries a little bigger on the next and so on until the packets are up to the full mtu size.

So, initially, the data gets through because it is in small packets. Then as the packets get bigger, they get clobbered. So you get some data through and then you stop.

If you reconfigure the MTU/RSS on your dialup connection to be less than or equal to the MTU imposed on the other end of your dialup link, the problems should go away, if this is the cause. Try 576.
http://www.internetweekly.org/llarrow/mtumss.html

Thank you for an excellent writeup.

TMT