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View Full Version : I am tired of Thieves on Ebay....LOOK OUT



gary350
09-07-2010, 08:15 PM
I sold an item for $40 on Ebay. I mailed it to the buyer with a tracking number so I know the buyer received it. Buyer filed a complaint with paypal claims the item he received was a book not the item he paid for.

Paypal dispute rules requires the buyer send the item back with a tracking number to get a full refund. I received a package with a book inside, NOT THE @#$% ITEM I MAILED TO HIM.

Paypal is happy that I received the package back so the buyer got a full refund.

If you do a web search for scams on ebay and paypal this is one of the new scams. Paypal only cares about the buyer so thieves have learned to file a complaint and they will get to keep the item they bought and get a full refund too.

LOOK OUT

SteveF
09-07-2010, 08:23 PM
Weren't you the guy on PM bragging about how you contact the backup bidders and sell them another of the same item so you can cheat ebay out of their fees for sale of those items?

What's that thing called? I think it's called "karma"

I've done about 300 transactions on ebay and only had a problem once.

Steve.

gary350
09-07-2010, 08:41 PM
Weren't you the guy on PM bragging about how you contact the backup bidders and sell them another of the same item so you can cheat ebay out of their fees for sale of those items?

What's that thing called? I think it's called "karma"

I've done about 300 transactions on ebay and only had a problem once.

Steve.

Ebay will not allow you to contact buyers and sell off ebay. Ebay has an option called, second chance offer to sell the item without relisting the auction incase the buyer does not pay. I don't sell much on ebay I listed a few items 2 weeks ago to clean out my shop I need the floor space more than the junk. That is the first time I have sold anything on ebay in 2 years. From now on I will use craigslist people can come to my house and check out what I am selling and pay cash.

lakeside53
09-07-2010, 09:18 PM
They have been pulling the "switch" scam for years. A friend of mine sells chainsaws parts - and has seen all types of bs.

A UV ink pen, and a record, nails most of the scammers. A picture of the item in the box suffices. Even if Paypal issues a refund, you can challenge that and get it reversed. If you used USPS, returning an item that is not the one sent is "mail fraud".

lazlo
09-07-2010, 09:21 PM
A UV ink pen, and a record, nails most of the scammers.

Took me a couple of seconds to realize what you meant Andy -- that's clever.

Deja Vu
09-07-2010, 09:24 PM
What was the name of the book that the buyer returned? :confused:

squirrel
09-07-2010, 09:29 PM
The scammers are getting pretty aggressive again, we were selling one of our items shipped without a tracking number. This has gone on for at least 2 years with out any great problems. Shipping it would only cost the buyer $1.50 since it did not have tracking. And if we did lose one every month it was not a big deal, NOW we have lost several within a 2 week period, sadly we had to raise the shipping cost on eBay to include delivery confirmation. We have none of that B.S. when customers purchase from our website or direct JUST EBAY!!!

lazlo
09-07-2010, 09:37 PM
we had to raise the shipping cost on eBay to include delivery confirmation. We have none of that B.S. when customers purchase from our website or direct JUST EBAY!!!

FYI: US Postal Service tracking numbers don't mean a whole lot. I've had several items that the postal service marked "signed for by recipient", and I hadn't received it. Every time I've posted that here or on PM, sellers don't believe me, until a bunch of other members post similar experiences.

In each case, the problem was the postal worker was too freaking lazy to deliver the damn package (it's almost always something that's heavy, like metal cut-offs).

In one case I bought $100 worth of camcorder batteries from a Yahoo seller. US Priority Mail tracking info indicated "Signed by recipient". I hadn't received it :mad: Called the local post office, and they swore the postman had delivered it.

They call back 2 days later: "Oh, hey Mr. George, we found your package!"

"Uh, so why does the tracking information indicate I signed for it?" Click.

danlb
09-07-2010, 09:39 PM
I'm not sure what the proper course of action should be. I don't think that any action taken by Paypal/eBay will satisfy everyone all the time.

I'm an honest person. If I were a buyer, I'd like the new rules that say that the transaction is guaranteed if the buyer returns the purchased part.

I'd assume that you could fight the bogus return if you could show that you sent a package that was 1.5 pounds and they returned a 1.0 pound book.

There's not a lot you can do to spot bad buyers. I can tell you that Paypal/eBay have stepped up the requirements for registering just to get rid of bad buyers. I'm not sure how many times they can pull that scam before they get discovered and prosecuted. Probably not many.

Just like when selling in craigslist or the newspaper, your ultimate recourse is always the courts.

What exactly would you want to happen if you were the seller and got screwed like that? What should happen if you were the buyer and got screwed?


Dan

P.S. I'm required to say... I do not represent ebay. They do not know nor approve of what I say. They pay for my toys.

Deja Vu
09-07-2010, 09:56 PM
Do ya think the guys/gals at the post office will alter their behavior because of that dramatic hangup? :rolleyes:


FYI: US Postal Service tracking numbers don't mean a whole lot. I've had several items that the postal service marked "signed for by recipient", and I hadn't received it. Every time I've posted that here or on PM, sellers don't believe me, until a bunch of other members post similar experiences.

In each case, the problem was the postal worker was too freaking lazy to deliver the damn package (it's almost always something that's heavy, like metal cut-offs).

In one case I bought $100 worth of camcorder batteries from a Yahoo seller. US Priority Mail tracking info indicated "Signed by recipient". I hadn't received it :mad: Called the local post office, and they swore the postman had delivered it.

They call back 2 days later: "Oh, hey Mr. George, we found your package!"

"Uh, so why does the tracking information indicate I signed for it?" Click.

lazlo
09-07-2010, 10:07 PM
Do ya think the guys/gals at the post office will alter their behavior because of that dramatic hangup? :rolleyes:

They (the post office) hung up on ME!

My point being, don't place much trust in US Postal Service tracking information. I've never ever had a similar problem with UPS or FedEx -- those tracking numbers actually mean something! :)

Your Old Dog
09-07-2010, 10:09 PM
Thats why I always involve the United States Postal Service in any way I can. Using the US Mail for purposes of fraud is a federal offence. I've filed fraud charges once on an eBay purchase and got satisfaction. Either insist on US Postal money orders or use US Mail to move the product.

oldtiffie
09-07-2010, 10:14 PM
Everything that is delivered to me is either by my having to sign for it at the post office or having to sign the receipt if a courier delivers it.

For items at the Post Office, I get a note/card in my mail box and I have to collect it personally.

If I am not home when the courier/s call, they leave a note/card at the front door or in the mail-box at the front gate and I have to ring them to arrange another delivery by them or for me to go to the courier depot (with my card and drivers licence) and sign for it an pick it up.

I have never lost an item in the mail.

I have never had a badly packed item in the mail either.

Perhaps I am just lucky.

I only buy occasionally on eBay - as I never "sell" - and I've never had a problem.

Perhaps I am lucky there too.

cuemaker
09-07-2010, 10:19 PM
They have been pulling the "switch" scam for years. A friend of mine sells chainsaws parts - and has seen all types of bs.

A UV ink pen, and a record, nails most of the scammers. A picture of the item in the box suffices. Even if Paypal issues a refund, you can challenge that and get it reversed. If you used USPS, returning an item that is not the one sent is "mail fraud".


Ok, I dont get the UV ink pen part.....I am for sure slow tonight based on some other problems I am having.

MrDan
09-07-2010, 10:27 PM
FYI: US Postal Service tracking numbers don't mean a whole lot. I've had several items that the postal service marked "signed for by recipient", and I hadn't received it. Every time I've posted that here or on PM, sellers don't believe me, until a bunch of other members post similar experiences.

In each case, the problem was the postal worker was too freaking lazy to deliver the damn package (it's almost always something that's heavy, like metal cut-offs).

In one case I bought $100 worth of camcorder batteries from a Yahoo seller. US Priority Mail tracking info indicated "Signed by recipient". I hadn't received it :mad: Called the local post office, and they swore the postman had delivered it.

They call back 2 days later: "Oh, hey Mr. George, we found your package!"

"Uh, so why does the tracking information indicate I signed for it?" Click.
My neighbor has had exactly the same issue with USPS. Nothing wrong with the system, just the POS government employee is too lazy to walk to the second floor and actually deliver the package. Calls to the post office were fruitless, "It was delivered to your address." My neighbor ending up walking around the office building where he works and found the package in another companies mail drop on the 1st floor. I'll take UPS or FedEx and day.

Dragons_fire
09-07-2010, 10:29 PM
I've never ever had a similar problem with UPS or FedEx -- those tracking numbers actually mean something! :)


I order electronic components from digikey all the time. They used to use Purolator, and i never had a problem, now they use UPS and i have had 3 different packages delivered to the wrong address and signed for by the people there.

I watch closely when im expecting a delivery and then when it says its been signed for, i call them to see where it is.

Deja Vu
09-07-2010, 10:41 PM
They (the post office) hung up on ME!

My point being, don't place much trust in US Postal Service tracking information. I've never ever had a similar problem with UPS or FedEx -- those tracking numbers actually mean something! :)

Oooh! I thought....never mind:o

I'd be down there at the post office exchanging notes after that!
I had a similar "situation" with a seller sending me an exterior network hardrive. Ximeta, IIRC.
I got the "envelope" and all the parts, the power supply, the cabbling, and the papers were in the 'envelope'. The drive unit itself had leaked out and possibly ended up on the floor of some postal sevice center between here and there. Or , a basket was found containing an extra piece without a destination.
The seller had used a slightly padded envelope with no protection for the simple unreinforced paper flap. Oh! He had it taped across the glue edge for extra security, but totally ignored the obvious weakest link in the package/envelope. All this to save postage that I already paid for, and send the items 'media content' for a lot less.

So I had to send back the "parts" to get a refund after Paypal deliberated.
Problem was, I had to pay for shipping back. I chose a relatively expensive method with UPS.... $12 bucks.
I've learned more expensive lessons in college.
Now I always contact the seller and discuss the transaction along with niceties......to affirm that the package will be adequately secure.

While the despute was handled by Paypal, I was sending out stock photos in emails to the postmaster, and he was forwarding them to several nodes along the package route. That exercise yielded no evidence, and just dead ended.

gwilson
09-07-2010, 10:45 PM
Between my employee and me,the Post Office lost 5 of our letters in 1 year. I had to pay a fine when I finished paying for a car,and went to get the title because the USPS had lost a payment I sent in,and had to send it in again. The second time I sent it in,of course it was late. So,$40.00 out of my pocket due to no fault of my own. Of course,the USPS assumes no liability for their f*** ups.

gary350
09-07-2010, 11:15 PM
Between my employee and me,the Post Office lost 5 of our letters in 1 year. I had to pay a fine when I finished paying for a car,and went to get the title because the USPS had lost a payment I sent in,and had to send it in again. The second time I sent it in,of course it was late. So,$40.00 out of my pocket due to no fault of my own. Of course,the USPS assumes no liability for their f*** ups.

This reminds me of the time I bought an item on ebay for $29.00. I mailed the seller a bank money order and it never arrived. The seller waited 3 weeks and the payment never arrived so I sent him another bank money order with delivery confirmation this time. The second payment arrived in 2 days and he mailed me the item I paid for. About 2 months later the seller emailed me to say, the first payment arrived in the mail today. LOL......where the hell has that money order been for 3 whole months.

The bank made me wait a whole 9 months to get a $29 refund for the first money order. Some type of bank policy that is handed down from the main company that can not be changes so I never buy bank money orders any more.

lakeside53
09-07-2010, 11:58 PM
They (the post office) hung up on ME!

My point being, don't place much trust in US Postal Service tracking information. I've never ever had a similar problem with UPS or FedEx -- those tracking numbers actually mean something! :)


A friend of mine had a $5000 engagement ring sent (via UPS) to his home in Hood River. It got delivered to his front porch 10 feet from a busy road- and was signed as "signature on file"... My friend was watching the tracking progress and expected an "undeliverable" notification and a sticker placed on his door. lol... the driver though he was doing a favor.

The box was still there Saturday morning...:)

lakeside53
09-08-2010, 12:00 AM
Ok, I dont get the UV ink pen part.....I am for sure slow tonight based on some other problems I am having.


UV ink dries clear and isn't visible unless placed under UV light. You write a serial number on the item; if it comes back and the number isn't there, it wasn't what you sent out.

Jim Hubbell
09-08-2010, 12:13 AM
I am waiting to see how our health care is handled by the Gov.

lazlo
09-08-2010, 12:18 AM
I am waiting to see how our health care is handled by the Gov.

Our healthcare already is handled by the government. At least the 1/3 of Americans on Medicare anyway...

Black_Moons
09-08-2010, 12:29 AM
Hmmm, If a post office worker does not fulfill his dutys to deliver mail to the best of his abilitys (Or at least, the worse of his abilitys), Isent that some kind of crime in itself? Destruction of mail? Or at the very least, Fraud in that the mailman declared it signed without anyone at the correct address signing for it.

914Wilhelm
09-08-2010, 12:53 AM
UV ink dries clear and isn't visible unless placed under UV light. You write a serial number on the item; if it comes back and the number isn't there, it wasn't what you sent out.

Seems tough to prove a negative event.

lakeside53
09-08-2010, 01:11 AM
You may think so, but it works... it's just an "unidentifiable mark" that's not obvious to the buyer. If they are crooked, they tend to run (i.e. not challenge the facts in the ebay dispute resolution process) when confronted by the picture or even a description of the original. I didn't invent the concept - it's been used in many industries for a long time.

beanbag
09-08-2010, 03:07 AM
You may think so, but it works... it's just an "unidentifiable mark" that's not obvious to the buyer. If they are crooked, they tend to run (i.e. not challenge the facts in the ebay dispute resolution process) when confronted by the picture or even a description of the original. I didn't invent the concept - it's been used in many industries for a long time.

I don't get how this works. The buyer can always claim that you wrote on the item, and then put it in your closet, then put another unmarked item in the box.

I had somebody from another city want me to mail them an item and they would use paypal. Problem is that I could not think of a way to prove that I did not send them a box of bricks should they complain.

Black_Moons
09-08-2010, 03:11 AM
Film yourself closing up the package (at the post office) and handing it over to the post office worker, and get the post officer worker to state thier name or get a closeup of thier nametag? :) Seems like good evidince to me if your super paranoid..

beanbag
09-08-2010, 03:13 AM
Or perhaps use one of those escrow services of questionable legitimacy?

oldtiffie
09-08-2010, 06:59 AM
I am amazed that so many expect 100% results, the more so if you use it regularly as either a seller or as a buyer, and even more so if you use it in or as a business or commercial enterprise.

Any realistic prudent business will factor in a %-age of losses in its cost/selling/buying structure.

Its not entirely unlike the futility of bitching about eBay and others fees and charges - PayPal included. Frankly I could not care less as its all part of the cost of doing business.

If I were a buyer and an article I am interested in is say, $60 + $40 post and handling plus say $10 PP or VISA etc. fees or if any of them change and the cost to me is $110 - that's all I want or need to know - ie how much is coming out of my account to pay for it. If $110 is OK, I "click it through". If its not OK, I give it a miss and move on.

It would be similar if I were as seller.

If you use eBay or CL and/or PP or VISA, you do it on terms that you have agreed to whether you like it or them or not.

You just have to suck it up.

Or not use it.

Simple as that.

All of those "fee for service" chargers are commercial entities that provide the service for the best profit they can get to get the best "bottom line" result that they can - and as they are obliged to do for their stock-holders.

Seems pretty basic to me.

Richard-TX
09-08-2010, 08:11 AM
I don't get how this works. The buyer can always claim that you wrote on the item, and then put it in your closet, then put another unmarked item in the box.

I had somebody from another city want me to mail them an item and they would use paypal. Problem is that I could not think of a way to prove that I did not send them a box of bricks should they complain.

There is no defense that is effective against a liar.

Mcgyver
09-08-2010, 08:23 AM
I don't get how this works. The

you quoted lakeside on how it works -" if they're crooked they tend to run". Same reason few can lie in court or many confess to the police....there's the odd pathological liar who's as comfortable in the lie as the truth but most liars and cheats will feel the pressure when it didn't go over easily and they're being challenged. this is why people confess etc.

merely letting a liar think you know something they don't can cause them to crumble and is standard technique for flushing them out. Showing them proof, doesn't matter whether its conclusive or not, and the attitude that goes with having proof can be overwhelming.

The win is psychological not because the proof is bulletproof from a logical sense

oldtiffie
09-08-2010, 08:42 AM
Being somebody else's questioner is one thing.

Being their accuser or prosecutor - or Inquisitor? - or Judge and Jury - is quite another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisitorial_system

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_jury

http://www.lawhandbook.sa.gov.au/ch11s03s06s01.php

cuemaker
09-08-2010, 10:15 AM
UV ink dries clear and isn't visible unless placed under UV light. You write a serial number on the item; if it comes back and the number isn't there, it wasn't what you sent out.


Ok, then I am not slow....Just because you say you put a serial code on the part doesnt mean you actually did or actually mailed the part.

As far as I can see, there isnt a good way to prove you mailed what you said you did. Same goes for the buyer.. He is swearing he mailed the exact part back to you....

Deja Vu
09-08-2010, 10:30 AM
Let's face it. There is always going to be a few bad apples in the lot.
With Ebay, we all operate under trust.....and a certain amount of risk.
All we can do is attempt to minimize the risk, but never eliminate it.

gnm109
09-08-2010, 11:10 AM
I've not had a problem with eBay in a long time. I did have a few people who received the goods and didn't want to pay, but PayPal actually paid me a couple of times since I was able to prove delivery with a delivery confirmation or a UPS tracking sheet.

I presume that all of you will make sure when you list on eBay that you set up your selling preferences so that no one with negative feedback or unpaid purchases can bid. I can't remember all of the categories but if you set it up properly, it will weed out some of the troublemakers.

I have more trouble with UPS damaging things than anything. I just bought a new 5 hp motor on eBay at a great price. The pictures showed it to be virtually perfect. It weighs 77 pounds and when it came, had been packed in plastic peanuts instead of being crated. Thus, it was free to move around and the cooling fan cover had two large dents in it. The price was so good that I just bit my lip and did three hours of bodywork and painting to fix it.

It was mainly the fault of the seller coupled with UPS's poor handling practices but there's nothing for it. I can't send it back due to the weight and the shipping cost and it's OK the way it is.

A few years ago, I ordered a Lincoln MIG from the Indiana company. They didn't pack it at all. They just slapped a UPS sticker on the cardboard retail box. When it came, the plastic front was pushed in all of three inches! Lincoln in California took pity on me when I showed them the pictures and they sent a replacement machine out by private carrier two days later to exchange.

The key to having good sales on eBay, however, is to examine your bidder's backgrounds to the extent possible. If you see something you don't like, you can always cancel a bid and block the bidder before the auction closes. I do it from time to time and it can save you a lot of trouble.

airsmith282
09-08-2010, 11:55 AM
yup sellers can be crooked, the IRS got their nose in it payings all kindsof rip off fees only to walk away with 5.00 insead of 1000. its gota suck for sure,

i use to buy off ebay all the time when they first were up and runing then it was more fees for this and that , and the constant jack up of fees ,

you cant sell you own stuff with out the irs knowing and wanting their cut now, iam canadain sorry but i dont answer to the IRS.and where is the right to charge taxe on used stuff, ebay maybe a business but the sellers for the most part are not their just regual guys,

the difference between an auction and selling something on a board privately is the IRS dont know when its private and its non of their business , its your stuff not theirs. that and it was always taxed once when it was new,, so what gives them a life long right to keep wanting the tax when ever it gets sold again and again,

we have always had to pay tax on cars private or form a dealer you can sell that car 1000 times and everytime someone gets nailed with more tax to pay now thats unfair as well.

so its not just ebay thats the problem its also the IRS.. no offence man but no one gets a cut off me when i sell something thats mine. priviate deal is private deal, my stuff is my stuff ,

now business is buisess if you own a business you charge taxes now in canada right now we just gota break , any busienss that makes under 30.000 a year no longer has to charge tax on sales repairs and so on,now thats a good goverment. makes my busienss alot better plus less paper work now to atleast till i start making over 30,000 a year.
i know ebay is an auction site so its a busienss so i think they need to pay the irs not the sellers or the buyers,

when i see new stuff forma busienss up on ebay first thing i think is how come its up here for sale, usualy its cause its old stock and never sold so they want to off load it kinda like car dealers so that being said ni taxes should be charged to the seller for sellling or buyer for buying.. i can under stand auction fees for a sale but the ad fee as well does not seem to fair to me , nore are the prices , last time i sold on ebay i lost my shirt on the deal, so i never sold again , made a few my purchases then it started costing me to much by the time i got the item was not worth it in the end,

no ideal on free boards the offer buy and sell and trade and even free stuff , no money is asked for so i save no i might have to waite a bit but when i sell soemthing i always get ahead of the game now, instead of losing my shirt,

ebay needs to lower their rates on what their fees are and this tax thing needs to come to a stop as well..

now i know this is in a perfect world but you know , its only going to get better the more the people complain to the governments..

i know an auction is there to get as much as you can for an item but if your fees are higher then what you got for it then you lose, if you decide not to try selling it agian to try and get more then you still lose ..

example joe has an item he wants 50.00 for his fees are 20.00 to get 50.00 joe needs to get 70.00 joe also has to pay the irs said taxes joe now needs to get 80.00 on the sale in order to walk away with 50.00, auction ends joe gets 50.00 on the sale ebay gets 20.00 irs get their tax, joe goes home with 15.00..

reserved auctions can cost you the same for all the relisiting you might have to do and you still lose. they buyer still loses to by the time you get the price paid plus shipping plus taxes you paid to much , price paid plsu shipping thats reasonable in the item ok, but tax on used stuff or tax on new stuff that was got on an auction thats rediculess, to pay tax on items at auction ,

to make it worse if your not in the US you got pay duty fees plus your own country or provencinal or state taxes and so on ,

gets a bit out of hand dont it,

i gota sword once, cost me 15.00 for the sword the state tax on it it was form the US plus gst and pst in canda where i live, plus the shipping plus 40.00 duty,

can you guess what the sword cost me in the end
darn near 70.00 for a 15.00 sword,

15.00 ok shipping was ok , but 3 taxes between 2 countrys plus hi way robbery duty fess, not cool
so i got dumb bought another one , these were off ebay by the way, ok so next sword i paid 37.00 for the sword 12.00 shipping 5.00 duty and the state tax and my own gst and pst , even my government has no right to thoes taxes, on something i bought out of country and won at an auction,

not such good deals after all are they

any how my 2 cents , i woke up smell the coffee and no longer deal on any sort of auction sites for anything to dam costly in the end ..

gnm109
09-08-2010, 01:53 PM
eBay has stuff that is hard to find and which would be cheaper than hunting around for it. If you don't like it, don't use it and therefore you have no reason to complain.

As far as I'm concerned, eBay has become a public utility.

Video Man
09-08-2010, 02:02 PM
Problems work both ways...and I still don't know if this was a mistake or a scam...this week I wanted to bid on an electronic device that usually bids out at about $60...weighs, according to the seller, 22 pounds...the shipping amount posted on the item was $164 for ups ground....a little excessive, I thought. "Bid on it and I'll fix it later" he says....but Paypal would want the full amount regardless of how weird the figure....I didn't bid, out of an excess of caution....

So...is this a scam?

AiR_GuNNeR
09-08-2010, 02:13 PM
Problems work both ways...and I still don't know if this was a mistake or a scam...this week I wanted to bid on an electronic device that usually bids out at about $60...weighs, according to the seller, 22 pounds...the shipping amount posted on the item was $164 for ups ground....a little excessive, I thought. "Bid on it and I'll fix it later" he says....but Paypal would want the full amount regardless of how weird the figure....I didn't bid, out of an excess of caution....

So...is this a scam?

Not sure if it's related, but ebay doesn't take a cut for the shipping amount. Sometimes the shipping amount will be purposely inflated to safe selling costs. I've seen items set for buy it now of .99 cents, with $10 shipping.

lakeside53
09-08-2010, 03:41 PM
It's the ebay calculated UPS "over the counter" rate (high....) which uses dimensional weight, plus any packing and handling charge the seller adds.

If you have a UPS account, the actual weight is used, the "rate" is less, and the actual cost can be less then half.

squirrel
09-08-2010, 04:54 PM
It's the ebay calculated UPS "over the counter" rate (high....) which uses dimensional weight, plus any packing and handling charge the seller adds.

If you have a UPS account, the actual weight is used, the "rate" is less, and the actual cost can be less then half.
The eBay rate calculator is not even close, additionally they don't charge for the additional insurance for items over $100. We have lost at least $2000 over a years time due that nonsense. Oddly, our dot com's UPS calculator and USPS works fine, it seems strange that eBay with all their resources cannot do the same.

The other SCAM is the buyers can use any address they like. We have USA only sales (just for eBay) and non-USA bidders use a ficticous USA address so they will not be blocked from bidding/buying by eBay. After they click the buy it now they change the address back to their non-USA location and "hope" we will not notice the change and ship it to their country for the USA rate

oldtiffie
09-08-2010, 05:14 PM
It's the ebay calculated UPS "over the counter" rate (high....) which uses dimensional weight, plus any packing and handling charge the seller adds.

If you have a UPS account, the actual weight is used, the "rate" is less, and the actual cost can be less then half.

Some items are charged by weight (mass) because of their high weight-to-volume ratio (block of lead) and others will be charged on a volume basis because of their low weight to volume ratio (feathers). There is a transition point from one to the other.

I am often required to tell the carrier both the mass and volume.

lazlo
09-08-2010, 05:36 PM
It's the ebay calculated UPS "over the counter" rate (high....) which uses dimensional weight, plus any packing and handling charge the seller adds.

That's a key point. A lot of sellers use a big handling fee as kind of a mini-reserve. So you'll see $30 UPS shipping on a 3 lb item. That's pure profit on the seller's part, and he doesn't pay Ebay fees on it.

Sometimes, if you question the high shipping, the seller will correct it.

Too_Many_Tools
09-08-2010, 05:58 PM
I sold an item for $40 on Ebay. I mailed it to the buyer with a tracking number so I know the buyer received it. Buyer filed a complaint with paypal claims the item he received was a book not the item he paid for.

Paypal dispute rules requires the buyer send the item back with a tracking number to get a full refund. I received a package with a book inside, NOT THE @#$% ITEM I MAILED TO HIM.

Paypal is happy that I received the package back so the buyer got a full refund.

If you do a web search for scams on ebay and paypal this is one of the new scams. Paypal only cares about the buyer so thieves have learned to file a complaint and they will get to keep the item they bought and get a full refund too.

LOOK OUT

So how is this any different than sellers sending boxes of rocks instead of the purchased item and telling the buyers too bad?

In the past when I used to buy off Ebay (before the Buy It Nevers took over), the only crooks I saw were sellers.

While I have not dealt with you, I know of several Ebay sellers who are bitching and whining that Ebay now does not allow them to screw over buyers.

LOL...what goes around, comes around.

If you don't like Ebay, then don't use their services.

If you don't like Paypal, then don't use their services.

If you don't like a shipper (USPS, UPS, FedEx), then don't use their services.

TMT

gnm109
09-08-2010, 06:02 PM
Problems work both ways...and I still don't know if this was a mistake or a scam...this week I wanted to bid on an electronic device that usually bids out at about $60...weighs, according to the seller, 22 pounds...the shipping amount posted on the item was $164 for ups ground....a little excessive, I thought. "Bid on it and I'll fix it later" he says....but Paypal would want the full amount regardless of how weird the figure....I didn't bid, out of an excess of caution....

So...is this a scam?


No. It's not a scam but it is against eBay rules to charge unreasonable shipping and handling. You could report it but that won't get you the item.

I never bid on anything like that but I have contacted the sellers to ask if they would lower the shipping. No results to date.

.

Too_Many_Tools
09-08-2010, 06:15 PM
No. It's not a scam but it is against eBay rules to charge unreasonable shipping and handling. You could report it but that won't get you the item.

I never bid on anything like that but I have contacted the sellers to ask if they would lower the shipping. No results to date.

.


In the past I have had several sellers adjust the shipping to the real cost.

Of course I had calculated the real cost and pointed out that if they wanted to persist in trying to charge crazy high shipping that I would turn them into Ebay and refuse to pay for the item that I had won.

Like I said...worked for me.;<)

TMT

lugnut
09-08-2010, 06:56 PM
First of all there is nothing that I look for on Ebay that I can’t live without.

Second if the seller or buyer does not have a 100% positive record I won’t do business with them.

Third if they show jacked up shipping or handling to boost their bottom line, I look somewhere else.

lakeside53
09-08-2010, 08:13 PM
Some items are charged by weight (mass) because of their high weight-to-volume ratio (block of lead) and others will be charged on a volume basis because of their low weight to volume ratio (feathers). There is a transition point from one to the other.

I am often required to tell the carrier both the mass and volume.


Not if you have a "pick up" account (small monthly fee) here. My account is ONLY weight, no matter (within their max size limits) the size.. so long as I fill out the paperwork online. heck, I could ship foam peanuts for peanuts :)

squirrel
09-08-2010, 08:24 PM
Third if they show jacked up shipping or handling to boost their bottom line, I look somewhere else.
They just pack the selling price with eBay fees and the shipping cost and list the item with "FREE" shipping! The only one that wins on that is eBay!!!!!

airsmith282
09-08-2010, 09:25 PM
The eBay rate calculator is not even close, additionally they don't charge for the additional insurance for items over $100. We have lost at least $2000 over a years time due that nonsense. Oddly, our dot com's UPS calculator and USPS works fine, it seems strange that eBay with all their resources cannot do the same.

The other SCAM is the buyers can use any address they like. We have USA only sales (just for eBay) and non-USA bidders use a ficticous USA address so they will not be blocked from bidding/buying by eBay. After they click the buy it now they change the address back to their non-USA location and "hope" we will not notice the change and ship it to their country for the USA rate

as far as iam concered if a canadian wants to buy something in another country he or she has every right to , the right to buy and sell any where is a Right, so to say we dont ship to canada or we dont ship to the us is auctualy decrimination really.

if your on an auction site who ever wins the bid gets it and thats all ther is to it, its no ones right to choose who can and cant bid on something,

and given alot of canadians buy from the us and sell to the US and so on and other countrys as well, i cant see where any one has a right to decide, money is money you want it or you dont,

i have customers that want stuff for cheap , i tell them you want it this is my price you dont like my price go else where..i ship products all over the world to me money is money, you want a product from me ill sell it to you , i dont care where you live..


i just called a buch of body shops to do a strut tower rebuild i wanted a qote to see who has the best price , no one wil come out to give me an estimate, so to each one, i told them you either want the job or not iam not paying 60.00 per tow to have estimates done on a car thats not certified yet, its not allowed to be driving, so you want a job you come and earn your wages or you dont get a job..

now to me thats fair ,

i got no problem paying to get the work done but i want the best price my sons not rich, so you shop around, for the best price right,

now they all said they wont come out to give an estimate so they all dont want jobs so if iam ever asked about any of these places ill not be giving them a good report...

i get calls all the time how much for this or that , so i tell them bring it to me or give me your address and ill come see you , pretty simple and fair,

anyhow, this whole ebay thing is still a rip off ,either way , the only ones getting rich is ebay thats for sure.

squirrel
09-08-2010, 09:40 PM
The only reason we block NON-USA bidders is due eBay's B.S. feedback policy. NON-USA bidders were leaving us bad feedback for shipping time and high costs, both issues are beyond our control. When we lose our 20% seller fee discount due to low DSR's (detailed seller ratings) that amount greatly exceeds the profit on the export items. We still export to buyers that use our own website and direct, the BS started with eBay, I agree with you any one should be able to purchase. Restricting trade is stupid, however to play the eBay B.S. ratings game it has to be done. Not only would we lose our discount the search rankings are placed at the bottom and that is very hard to measure, how many potenial sales are lost due to the low search rankings.

RKW
09-08-2010, 09:54 PM
You have his address ... send him a "thank you" gift. Better yet, send his wife something he will have to explain ... use your imagination here ;-)



I sold an item for $40 on Ebay. I mailed it to the buyer with a tracking number so I know the buyer received it. Buyer filed a complaint with paypal claims the item he received was a book not the item he paid for.

Paypal dispute rules requires the buyer send the item back with a tracking number to get a full refund. I received a package with a book inside, NOT THE @#$% ITEM I MAILED TO HIM.

Paypal is happy that I received the package back so the buyer got a full refund.

If you do a web search for scams on ebay and paypal this is one of the new scams. Paypal only cares about the buyer so thieves have learned to file a complaint and they will get to keep the item they bought and get a full refund too.

LOOK OUT

squirrel
09-08-2010, 09:57 PM
You have his address ... send him a "thank you" gift. Better yet, send his wife something he will have to explain ... use your imagination here ;-)
Feed your cat the el-cheapo canned cat food and send him some feces samples!!!

gnm109
09-08-2010, 10:05 PM
The only reason we block NON-USA bidders is due eBay's B.S. feedback policy. NON-USA bidders were leaving us bad feedback for shipping time and high costs, both issues are beyond our control. When we lose our 20% seller fee discount due to low DSR's (detailed seller ratings) that amount greatly exceeds the profit on the export items. We still export to buyers that use our own website and direct, the BS started with eBay, I agree with you any one should be able to purchase. Restricting trade is stupid, however to play the eBay B.S. ratings game it has to be done. Not only would we lose our discount the search rankings are placed at the bottom and that is very hard to measure, how many potenial sales are lost due to the low search rankings.


I agree. The eBay feedback system needs to be changed (again). This issue of not being able to give bad feedback to bad buyers makes the playing field unlevel.

I've sold numerous things to Canadian buyers but I'm always concerned about delivery. The sales I've made have been OK.

.

squirrel
09-08-2010, 10:19 PM
I agree. The eBay feedback system needs to be changed (again). This issue of not being able to give bad feedback to bad buyers makes the playing field unlevel.



.
We just got a negative from a buyer out east that tried to scam us, they wanted to keep the item and get a refund. I stand our ground on that and will not budge. They claimed we incorrectly described the toolholder, that tool holder was ours from the shop, we sold our slant bed during the downsize and had some tooling left over and that was part of it. With that I have 100% certainty that it was the correct tooling.

We told them to send it back, they did not want to do that. They filed a paypal not as described and paypal told them to send it back and enter the tracking number. They did not do it, when paypal returned the funds to our account they did leave us a negative and made defamatory comments about us.

It really hurts my employee's feelings when they see the negative because they will bend over backwards for our customers and ship the items out the same day or answer their technical questions on the phone. By eBay's empowerment of buyers like that they send the corn cob soaked in turpentine deep.

gnm109
09-08-2010, 10:29 PM
We just got a negative from a buyer out east that tried to scam us, they wanted to keep the item and get a refund. I stand our ground on that and will not budge. They claimed we incorrectly described the toolholder, that tool holder was ours from the shop, we sold our slant bed during the downsize and had some tooling left over and that was part of it. With that I have 100% certainty that it was the correct tooling.

We told them to send it back, they did not want to do that. They filed a paypal not as described and paypal told them to send it back and enter the tracking number. They did not do it, when paypal returned the funds to our account they did leave us a negative and made defamatory comments about us.

It really hurts my employee's feelings when they see the negative because they will bend over backwards for our customers and ship the items out the same day or answer their technical questions on the phone. By eBay's empowerment of buyers like that they send the corn cob soaked in turpentine deep.


It sounds like you got a rat for a buyer. It's too bad that eBay is the only game in town.

If I were you, I would petition eBay to have the negative removed. I've heard that it can be done. Since you have an uncooperative buyer who will probably not cooperate in an investigation, you will probably prevail. It would only take an email on your part to get the process started.

squirrel
09-08-2010, 11:53 PM
We started our own website in 2008 and don't rely upon eBay nearly as much as we did prior to the 2008. The big joke is on eBay, we are able to track sales from customers that purchased their first item on eBay from us and have purchased several times after that directly from our website totally bypassing eBay!!!!!!. EBay is still a good place to advertise and when the buyer has a postive experience with the seller they now trust you and will purchase direct. We place a catalog or flier in every order shipped, that has been one of the most important reasons for our dot com's success.

Deb called our eBay rep and followed his instructions to the letter regarding this issue. After getting the negative she again called our eBay rep and he said their is nothing he can do about it. Now my opinion of eBay is zero, it has diminished over the last 3 years and hit the bottom a month ago.

gnm109
09-09-2010, 12:18 AM
We started our own website in 2008 and don't rely upon eBay nearly as much as we did prior to the 2008. The big joke is on eBay, we are able to track sales from customers that purchased their first item on eBay from us and have purchased several times after that directly from our website totally bypassing eBay!!!!!!. EBay is still a good place to advertise and when the buyer has a postive experience with the seller they now trust you and will purchase direct. We place a catalog or flier in every order shipped, that has been one of the most important reasons for our dot com's success.

Deb called our eBay rep and followed his instructions to the letter regarding this issue. After getting the negative she again called our eBay rep and he said their is nothing he can do about it. Now my opinion of eBay is zero, it has diminished over the last 3 years and hit the bottom a month ago.


That's too bad. The only good thing is that now they only track one year.

I hope you blocked that buyer. It's unfortunate that bad feedback can't be used to show a bad buyer anymore. That only works against the seller.

JRouche
09-09-2010, 12:59 AM
Ebay is a great source.

Used to be just the paper classifieds for the average guy, a guy that didnt want to go to the auctions. Then came the penny saver (in my area), then the Recycler mag. And the internet started popping up strong.

The Recycler tried to go electronic, dont know if they are still in the business. And even yahoo and some other start-ups tried to compete.

The king is still ebay. If you want anything that is somewhat hard to get, thats where you will find it.

I buy stuff, I dont sell them. So I love the policies in place to protect the buyer. I think ebay did the right thing and gave more control to the buyer. They relised the money came from the buyer, there was a need to protect them. The sellers will always be there. If the buyer didnt feel protected they will take the primary item, the money, some where else.

The sellers are NOT the power and they should not have the upper hand. Its the folks with the money, the buyer that should have the protection and the say so. Ebay finally saw this and changed some things.

I dont even feel sorry for the guy with the part trying to get it converted into cash. Its up to him to provide the service and a quality part. Hard cash is king, not the item being sold. So the king is the dude with the cash and the slave is the guy selling it.

Too many dealers and sellers have it backwards. They want to be in the position of having the power and cash. But they arent, they are in the back seat. They arent driving, they are needing the dude with the cash to support their sale.

Us buyers are in control and the dealers dont like it. Oh well. Ebay is the buyers domain, not the sellers. Solly but the dude with the money wins. If you dont like the rules try to shovel your products somewhere else.

And many sellers will try to snub ebay and decide to not deal with them. Thats just plain old stupid. The saying is cutting off yer nose to spite yer face. Poor business practices.

Solly sellers.. But the buyers are what pays your bills. Like it or not. Ive got cash and the entire country is my buying ground now with computers. Hate the competition? Oh well, thats the sellers world, maybe time for a new profession. JR

Too_Many_Tools
09-09-2010, 02:01 AM
Ebay is a great source.

Used to be just the paper classifieds for the average guy, a guy that didnt want to go to the auctions. Then came the penny saver (in my area), then the Recycler mag. And the internet started popping up strong.

The Recycler tried to go electronic, dont know if they are still in the business. And even yahoo and some other start-ups tried to compete.

The king is still ebay. If you want anything that is somewhat hard to get, thats where you will find it.

I buy stuff, I dont sell them. So I love the policies in place to protect the buyer. I think ebay did the right thing and gave more control to the buyer. They relised the money came from the buyer, there was a need to protect them. The sellers will always be there. If the buyer didnt feel protected they will take the primary item, the money, some where else.

The sellers are NOT the power and they should not have the upper hand. Its the folks with the money, the buyer that should have the protection and the say so. Ebay finally saw this and changed some things.

I dont even feel sorry for the guy with the part trying to get it converted into cash. Its up to him to provide the service and a quality part. Hard cash is king, not the item being sold. So the king is the dude with the cash and the slave is the guy selling it.

Too many dealers and sellers have it backwards. They want to be in the position of having the power and cash. But they arent, they are in the back seat. They arent driving, they are needing the dude with the cash to support their sale.

Us buyers are in control and the dealers dont like it. Oh well. Ebay is the buyers domain, not the sellers. Solly but the dude with the money wins. If you dont like the rules try to shovel your products somewhere else.

And many sellers will try to snub ebay and decide to not deal with them. Thats just plain old stupid. The saying is cutting off yer nose to spite yer face. Poor business practices.

Solly sellers.. But the buyers are what pays your bills. Like it or not. Ive got cash and the entire country is my buying ground now with computers. Hate the competition? Oh well, thats the sellers world, maybe time for a new profession. JR

Well said.

Part of the reason why sellers are so POed about Ebay is that in the past the rating system was slanted to the sellers.

And as you said, it changed because buyers were getting screwed and leaving Ebay in droves.

Sellers made their nest and now have to lie in it.

If sellers want changes then they need to come down hard on those sellers who cheat buyers and have caused the rating system we have today.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-09-2010, 02:05 AM
They just pack the selling price with eBay fees and the shipping cost and list the item with "FREE" shipping! The only one that wins on that is eBay!!!!!

LOL..no the item just doesn't sell.

The marketplace in action.

TMT

JoeLee
09-09-2010, 07:49 AM
I agree. The eBay feedback system needs to be changed (again). This issue of not being able to give bad feedback to bad buyers makes the playing field unlevel.

.

I also agree...... that crap they recently started..... not allowing sellers to leave negative feedback has left the seller a sitting duck to the scammer.

JL...................

Too_Many_Tools
09-09-2010, 10:42 AM
I also agree...... that crap they recently started..... not allowing sellers to leave negative feedback has left the seller a sitting duck to the scammer.

JL...................

So how would you change it?

The former system caused buyers to leave Ebay along with their money in droves...right into the waiting arms of Amazon.

Sellers have only themselves to blame for the current Ebay feedback system.

TMT

gnm109
09-09-2010, 10:50 AM
So how would you change it?

The former system caused buyers to leave Ebay along with their money in droves...right into the waiting arms of Amazon.

Sellers have only themselves to blame for the current Ebay feedback system.

TMT


I feel so dirty....(sob, sniff)......actually, they should bring the old system back. Might lose some money but they'd sure get rid of some dirtbag buyers.

Some of the buyers belong to the phylum Rodenta.

lazlo
09-09-2010, 11:06 AM
I feel so dirty....(sob, sniff)......actually, they should bring the old system back. Might lose some money but they'd sure get rid of some dirtbag buyers.

See, that's what it comes down to -- are you an Ebay seller, or a buyer. :mad:

The OP is the guy who ranted on PracticalMachinist about all the Ebay buyers who didn't purchase insurance from him, and when a package went missing, they expected him to rectify the problem.

I pointed out that according to US commerce laws, the sale is not complete until the seller delivers the product to the buyer. Gary didn't like that answer :rolleyes:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/tooling-parts-accessories-sale-wanted/ot-ebay-purchase-didnt-make-am-i-screwed-196334/index2.html#post1277054

The days of the old system were all about retaliatory feedback. All sellers had 100% feedback, because if you were dumb enough to leave deserving negative feedback for a sleazy seller, they instantly left you retailiatory feedback. So notorious sellers like Al Babin and 800Watt had 100% feedback (or nearly so). In other words, the feedback system was completely worthless.

Back then, Ebay was all about people trawling yard sales and estate sales, buying everything in sight, regardless of condition, and listing it on Ebay with pictures cleverly taken to hide any defect. If the buyer complained that the item was defective, the seller would just ignore him, because the buyer couldn't leave negative feedback.

Now, the feedback system is only half broken, but seller's ratings now actually mean something, and the seller has to work for 100% feedback.

The buyers, who left in droves because of retaliatory feedback, returned, and to this day, the sellers complain bitterly...

gary350
09-09-2010, 11:26 AM
Well said.

Part of the reason why sellers are so POed about Ebay is that in the past the rating system was slanted to the sellers.

And as you said, it changed because buyers were getting screwed and leaving Ebay in droves.

Sellers made their nest and now have to lie in it.

If sellers want changes then they need to come down hard on those sellers who cheat buyers and have caused the rating system we have today.

TMT


Your totally wrong about that. Ebay has been giving seller FREE listings for several months trying to get sellers to list more auctions. Ebay sales have dropped and they are trying to get sales up again. TV news reported sales on ebay has dropped by 70%. Lots of sellers have permently left ebay after getting screwed over and over by buyers that know how to get a free item and get a refund too, seller are loosing their ass. The seller can't even give the buyer negative feedback anymore. I have had buyers send an email like this, "I have no intentions of paying for this item if you do not send it to me for free I will give you negative feedback." Now that things are all one sided in favor of the buyer sellers are quitting ebay. You can't loose money and stay in business. I use to buy & sell a lot of stuff on ebay but 2 years ago I quit ebay. I bought a lot of model airplane engines on ebay then resold the engines I didn't want after testing them on my airplanes to see how they fly compaired to other engines. I won't be selling anything on ebay anymore not until the rules become even on both sides again.

ADGO_Racing
09-09-2010, 11:28 AM
I used to sell stuff on Ebay, I quit when they started to get stupid a couple years ago. I never scammed anyone, I only ever left one negative feedback, that was a stupid Mexican who was going to cost me more money than the sale was worth. And before you jump on that, The item was large/heavy required freight shipment. I wasn't going to go through all of the hassle of doing the paperwork for an international sale. I also specified this in the ad. I still didn't scam anyone, I canceled the sale and returned his money. I relisted the item and it sold the same day to an American who came to pick it up and brought cash (nice guy:D ).

Yes there were some bums out there selling stuff, but now Ebay is driving sellers away by the truck load. I know of about two dozen people who have left Ebay, none of them ever scammed anyone either, a fair number of Power Sellers and Titanium Sellers.

A friend of mine his entire business is selling on Ebay, he is/was moving over $550,000 every three months. He is leaving, his Ebay fees are averaging $8,000/month, last two months have been nearly $12,000 each. He is currently using three other sites and selling more stuff from the three of them combined, than Ebay alone. His fees are FAR less, he told me last week his fees for all three sites came out to less than $1,500.00 last month Vs Ebay at nearly $12,000. Yes it takes three sites to replace Ebay, but who cares, he is still saving a lot of money and selling more stuff.

Sellers aren't leaving Ebay because they are scammers, those guys are still there, they just adapt to the changing world of Ebay. They are leaving because of Ebay's greed.

lazlo
09-09-2010, 11:32 AM
Your totally wrong about that. Ebay has been giving seller FREE listings for several months trying to get sellers to list more auctions. Ebay sales have dropped and they are trying to get sales up again.

Ebay sales have dropped immensely in the last 3 months (where no changes in listing fees or the feedback system have occurred) for the same reason that Intel and Nvidia took huge losses in Q2 -- we're in a double-dip recession, and a LOT of people are out of work.

From the Ebay message boards:


Dramatic Sales Drop
Posted: Jun-25-10 22:43 PDT

I have been a seller for 6 years.
My sales are down dramatically as well. I blame it on the economy somewhat, but I think more people have discovered selling on Ebay.

Much more competition now.
The field, I mostly sell in has increased at least 300%.

We all want a piece of this pie, and our share is much smaller now than it used to be.
Things aren't what they used to be.




Dramatic Sales Drop
Posted: Jun-25-10 22:58 PDT

The economy

More people out of work than in years past

More people using eBay to try to make a living...more products to choose from

Store items now being listed as BIN's

Kids just got out of school so parents just got done paying for graduations etc and are now paying day care, summer camps etc, etc, etc, etc

JoeLee
09-09-2010, 12:06 PM
So how would you change it?

The former system caused buyers to leave Ebay along with their money in droves...right into the waiting arms of Amazon.

Sellers have only themselves to blame for the current Ebay feedback system.

TMT
Put it back to the way it originally was, being the seller can leave negative feedback as before. This deters scammer buyers to an extent !

JL........................

lazlo
09-09-2010, 12:23 PM
Put it back to the way it originally was, being the seller can leave negative feedback as before. This deters scammer buyers to an extent !

Then all sellers would have 100% feedback again, and all the buyers would leave, like they did in 2007.

Is that what you want?

Mcgyver
09-09-2010, 12:42 PM
Put it back to the way it originally was, being the seller can leave negative feedback as before. This deters scammer buyers to an extent !

JL........................


A modification I'd make is un-attach feedback from a particular transaction AND make it anonymous.

Under the old system everyone had 99.6 - 100% positive - that was slightly less BS than the current system. The overriding reason it was so high is fear of reprisal - you trash me I'll trash you, so with it being water under the bridge (deal done) leaving negative feedback can't possibly help you but it could hurt you.

The old ranking system was dysfunctional as it was NOT getting an honest response to "would you buy from this person again", it was getting a response to "was the experience so terrible that out of spite you're willing to risk having your own reputation trashed" Two very different questions, right?

So, my proposal (if ebay's listening). Joe you buy from me, you can leave 1 instance of feedback anytime over say the next 8 weeks and no one will know that the feedback came from you or that it was for our transaction. I get the same. If I'm an asshat (and I'm not, except toward the forums intellectual, TMT), you can tell the world the truth with no chance of your true assessment hurting you. The the feedback is binary "would you buy from them again Y/N" as well as comments, no complex 1-10 schemes or anything that can mess up the integrity of the data. You also have some logarithm that if you not leaving feedback your count doesn't increase or something

You can't please all the people all the time but generally if the transaction was good most will honestly assess it. However incidences of undeserved criticism wouldn't matter as scores would have the huge granularity of from 0 -> 100, vs 99 -> 100.

Trust underpins transactions in free market. How can you trust in a feedback system that we all know generates meaningless results. Imo something like the about that doesn't impede the truth would build trust and be better for all, ebay, buyers and sellers

Too_Many_Tools
09-09-2010, 01:29 PM
I feel so dirty....(sob, sniff)......actually, they should bring the old system back. Might lose some money but they'd sure get rid of some dirtbag buyers.

Some of the buyers belong to the phylum Rodenta.

LOL...ain't gonna happen.

You are stuck with the new rating system...the one crooked sellers worked hard to get.

If you don't like it you can always sell locally.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-09-2010, 01:36 PM
See, that's what it comes down to -- are you an Ebay seller, or a buyer. :mad:

The OP is the guy who ranted on PracticalMachinist about all the Ebay buyers who didn't purchase insurance from him, and when a package went missing, they expected him to rectify the problem.

I pointed out that according to US commerce laws, the sale is not complete until the seller delivers the product to the buyer. Gary didn't like that answer :rolleyes:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/tooling-parts-accessories-sale-wanted/ot-ebay-purchase-didnt-make-am-i-screwed-196334/index2.html#post1277054

The days of the old system were all about retaliatory feedback. All sellers had 100% feedback, because if you were dumb enough to leave deserving negative feedback for a sleazy seller, they instantly left you retailiatory feedback. So notorious sellers like Al Babin and 800Watt had 100% feedback (or nearly so). In other words, the feedback system was completely worthless.

Back then, Ebay was all about people trawling yard sales and estate sales, buying everything in sight, regardless of condition, and listing it on Ebay with pictures cleverly taken to hide any defect. If the buyer complained that the item was defective, the seller would just ignore him, because the buyer couldn't leave negative feedback.

Now, the feedback system is only half broken, but seller's ratings now actually mean something, and the seller has to work for 100% feedback.

The buyers, who left in droves because of retaliatory feedback, returned, and to this day, the sellers complain bitterly...

Very well said.

But is the feedback system really broken?

Isn't it the responsibility of the seller to make the buyer happy with the transaction?

The last time I looked, that is how the free marketplace works...happy buyers buy, unhappy buyers walk.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-09-2010, 01:43 PM
Your totally wrong about that. Ebay has been giving seller FREE listings for several months trying to get sellers to list more auctions. Ebay sales have dropped and they are trying to get sales up again. TV news reported sales on ebay has dropped by 70%. Lots of sellers have permently left ebay after getting screwed over and over by buyers that know how to get a free item and get a refund too, seller are loosing their ass. The seller can't even give the buyer negative feedback anymore. I have had buyers send an email like this, "I have no intentions of paying for this item if you do not send it to me for free I will give you negative feedback." Now that things are all one sided in favor of the buyer sellers are quitting ebay. You can't loose money and stay in business. I use to buy & sell a lot of stuff on ebay but 2 years ago I quit ebay. I bought a lot of model airplane engines on ebay then resold the engines I didn't want after testing them on my airplanes to see how they fly compaired to other engines. I won't be selling anything on ebay anymore not until the rules become even on both sides again.

Sales are down because we are in the worst recession since the Great Depression courtesy of the last Administration.

As for sellers wanting to sell in an open marketplace, those hundreds of thousands of "Buy It Never"s tell us otherwise.

Ebay is what it is today because of crooked sellers.

Ebay only works with buyers buying...their money makes the world turn.

When they are continually cheated, they go buy elsewhere...in this case Amazon.

I have zero sympathy for sellers...they are living the Ebay they created.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-09-2010, 01:46 PM
I used to sell stuff on Ebay, I quit when they started to get stupid a couple years ago. I never scammed anyone, I only ever left one negative feedback, that was a stupid Mexican who was going to cost me more money than the sale was worth. And before you jump on that, The item was large/heavy required freight shipment. I wasn't going to go through all of the hassle of doing the paperwork for an international sale. I also specified this in the ad. I still didn't scam anyone, I canceled the sale and returned his money. I relisted the item and it sold the same day to an American who came to pick it up and brought cash (nice guy:D ).

Yes there were some bums out there selling stuff, but now Ebay is driving sellers away by the truck load. I know of about two dozen people who have left Ebay, none of them ever scammed anyone either, a fair number of Power Sellers and Titanium Sellers.

A friend of mine his entire business is selling on Ebay, he is/was moving over $550,000 every three months. He is leaving, his Ebay fees are averaging $8,000/month, last two months have been nearly $12,000 each. He is currently using three other sites and selling more stuff from the three of them combined, than Ebay alone. His fees are FAR less, he told me last week his fees for all three sites came out to less than $1,500.00 last month Vs Ebay at nearly $12,000. Yes it takes three sites to replace Ebay, but who cares, he is still saving a lot of money and selling more stuff.

Sellers aren't leaving Ebay because they are scammers, those guys are still there, they just adapt to the changing world of Ebay. They are leaving because of Ebay's greed.

And those three magical sites are? ;<)

tmt

Too_Many_Tools
09-09-2010, 01:50 PM
Put it back to the way it originally was, being the seller can leave negative feedback as before. This deters scammer buyers to an extent !

JL........................


The way it was didn't work...unless you were a seller.

The buyer is the final word as to whether the transaction was a good one or not.

They have the money..they have the power.

They have spoken...the sellers are squealing like little pigs because they have to make sure the transaction is a good one.

Welcome to the real business world.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-09-2010, 01:55 PM
A modification I'd make is un-attach feedback from a particular transaction AND make it anonymous.

Under the old system everyone had 99.6 - 100% positive - that was slightly less BS than the current system. The overriding reason it was so high is fear of reprisal - you trash me I'll trash you, so with it being water under the bridge (deal done) leaving negative feedback can't possibly help you but it could hurt you.

The old ranking system was dysfunctional as it was NOT getting an honest response to "would you buy from this person again", it was getting a response to "was the experience so terrible that out of spite you're willing to risk having your own reputation trashed" Two very different questions, right?

So, my proposal (if ebay's listening). Joe you buy from me, you can leave 1 instance of feedback anytime over say the next 8 weeks and no one will know that the feedback came from you or that it was for our transaction. I get the same. If I'm an asshat (and I'm not, except toward the forums intellectual, TMT), you can tell the world the truth with no chance of your true assessment hurting you. The the feedback is binary "would you buy from them again Y/N" as well as comments, no complex 1-10 schemes or anything that can mess up the integrity of the data. You also have some logarithm that if you not leaving feedback your count doesn't increase or something

You can't please all the people all the time but generally if the transaction was good most will honestly assess it. However incidences of undeserved criticism wouldn't matter as scores would have the huge granularity of from 0 -> 100, vs 99 -> 100.

Trust underpins transactions in free market. How can you trust in a feedback system that we all know generates meaningless results. Imo something like the about that doesn't impede the truth would build trust and be better for all, ebay, buyers and sellers


Sounds like "someone" wants a feedback system that give meaningless results.

So what is your Ebay name Mcgyver ?

Let us see for ourselves if you walk the talk..talk..talk.

TMT

Deja Vu
09-09-2010, 01:56 PM
I don't get all this ebay negativity:confused:

It's a market place. You pay to play! When I need something I scan through ebay with a collection of different searches.
I've found just what I needed and at very reasonable "buy now" prices.

Too_Many_Tools
09-09-2010, 02:00 PM
You know...the more I think about this discussion the more I LIKE the current Ebay feedback system.

It makes sellers work to make the transaction a good one for the buyer.

And for good sellers, a happy buyer is a repeat buyer.

TMT

wierdscience
09-09-2010, 02:10 PM
Been an Ebay seller and buyer since 2001,never had any problems,though I did get burned on a an arbor press I bought once.

I always charge actual shipping costs plus a little for packing materials(good tape and stuffing ain't free)no one can honestly say I don't pack things well either.

I have no problems with customers not wanting insurance-I don't give them a choice.

And I have no problems shipping to Canada,but it must go UPS/FEDEX-I refuse to wait 3 months while Canada post flogs the donkey to complete a transaction.

So far as the seller/buyer ratings wars.Easiest way would be put the system back to the way it was in 2001,but tie an Ebay account to the persons driver's license and SS# instead of just a credit card.

When things go bad and they always do it's less often to happen if you can put legal hands on some one.

Too_Many_Tools
09-09-2010, 02:29 PM
Been an Ebay seller and buyer since 2001,never had any problems,though I did get burned on a an arbor press I bought once.

I always charge actual shipping costs plus a little for packing materials(good tape and stuffing ain't free)no one can honestly say I don't pack things well either.

I have no problems with customers not wanting insurance-I don't give them a choice.

And I have no problems shipping to Canada,but it must go UPS/FEDEX-I refuse to wait 3 months while Canada post flogs the donkey to complete a transaction.

So far as the seller/buyer ratings wars.Easiest way would be put the system back to the way it was in 2001,but tie an Ebay account to the persons driver's license and SS# instead of just a credit card.

When things go bad and they always do it's less often to happen if you can put legal hands on some one.


Hmmm...tying a seller to his driver's license and SS#....I like that.

I would also post their REAL NAME and PICTURE from their driver's license in the sales posting.

It would make accountability for fraud much easier.

It would make tax collection much easier too.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-09-2010, 02:33 PM
I don't get all this ebay negativity:confused:

It's a market place. You pay to play! When I need something I scan through ebay with a collection of different searches.
I've found just what I needed and at very reasonable "buy now" prices.

So show us those examples of very reasonable "buy it never" prices.

I haven't seen them...when I go and look all I see are sellers posting make believe prices waiting for a fool.

TMT

wirewrkr
09-09-2010, 02:36 PM
You know...the more I think about this discussion the more I LIKE the current Ebay feedback system.

It makes sellers work to make the transaction a good one for the buyer.

And for good sellers, a happy buyer is a repeat buyer.

TMT
I am a buyer AND a seller on Ebay. I have sold HUNDREDS of items in the last 5 years, and since I can see both sides of the fence here I gotta say that when they changed the policies, they went from one extreme to the other. Before, the buyers had no real rights, now the sellers have none.
I recently had a guy overseas that bought an item and had me deliver to his shipping broker in the USA. I was totally fine with that.
I tracked it on UPS and the shipper signed for it, so I left the guy a positive feedback.
A month goes by and he emails me and asks where his item is, I tell him it was delivered to his shipper and signed for and on what date time etc.
It turns out that his shipper LOST the item.
I ended up with a negative feedback, and Ebay will not back me up or retract it. They won't even listen to my explanation.
Sure they suck, BUT if I don't want to deal with this I can leave and go elsewhere.
If there was some other site that had the market saturation that Ebay does, I would be there in a heartbeat.
Wirewrkr

Deja Vu
09-09-2010, 02:54 PM
So show us those examples of very reasonable "buy it never" prices.

I haven't seen them...when I go and look all I see are sellers posting make believe prices waiting for a fool.

TMT

http://cgi.ebay.com/BOSTITCH-N12-N12B-TOTAL-REBUILD-KIT-UNBELIEVABLE-PRICE-/150374659401?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2303073549

Although, I wouldn't call it an "unbelievable" price..... but a good one.
Fortunately, I was able to complete the job using parts from a salvaged printer and didn't need to buy the kit..YET! ;)
Namely, the cylinder seal..
http://www.nailgunorings.com/v/vspfiles/photos/ft100294-1.jpg One of the rubber roller rings out of the printer worked well after a slight modification.

Too_Many_Tools
09-09-2010, 02:55 PM
I am a buyer AND a seller on Ebay. I have sold HUNDREDS of items in the last 5 years, and since I can see both sides of the fence here I gotta say that when they changed the policies, they went from one extreme to the other. Before, the buyers had no real rights, now the sellers have none.
I recently had a guy overseas that bought an item and had me deliver to his shipping broker in the USA. I was totally fine with that.
I tracked it on UPS and the shipper signed for it, so I left the guy a positive feedback.
A month goes by and he emails me and asks where his item is, I tell him it was delivered to his shipper and signed for and on what date time etc.
It turns out that his shipper LOST the item.
I ended up with a negative feedback, and Ebay will not back me up or retract it. They won't even listen to my explanation.
Sure they suck, BUT if I don't want to deal with this I can leave and go elsewhere.
If there was some other site that had the market saturation that Ebay does, I would be there in a heartbeat.
Wirewrkr


But the buyers have the money.

And that is all that matters.

Sellers just need to suck it up and make the buyers happy.

TMT

gary350
09-09-2010, 02:55 PM
I am a buyer AND a seller on Ebay. I have sold HUNDREDS of items in the last 5 years, and since I can see both sides of the fence here I gotta say that when they changed the policies, they went from one extreme to the other. Before, the buyers had no real rights, now the sellers have none.
I recently had a guy overseas that bought an item and had me deliver to his shipping broker in the USA. I was totally fine with that.
I tracked it on UPS and the shipper signed for it, so I left the guy a positive feedback.
A month goes by and he emails me and asks where his item is, I tell him it was delivered to his shipper and signed for and on what date time etc.
It turns out that his shipper LOST the item.
I ended up with a negative feedback, and Ebay will not back me up or retract it. They won't even listen to my explanation.
Sure they suck, BUT if I don't want to deal with this I can leave and go elsewhere.
If there was some other site that had the market saturation that Ebay does, I would be there in a heartbeat.
Wirewrkr


You are 100% correct. I sold on ebay for 9 years. I always wanted the buyer to save money if possible if they did not want insurance that was fine with me. If the buyer did not want tracking and wanted it sent by the cheapest rate that was fine with me too. But when the post office did not deliver the package then the buyer was Yelling fraud and wanted a replacement package or full refund. I started making everyone pay for tracking that solved 99.5% of the lots package problems but it make a lot of buyers MAD they did not want to pay the extra 60 cents of tracking and extra postage cost for piority mail. I decided it was best to protect myself as well as the buyer and who cares what it costs just as long as the buyer receives the package and is happy. Any item selling for more that $75 I insisted the buyer pay for insurance too that really make buyers mad as hell. You need to be a seller for a while just to find out what it is like. 99.9% of the buyers are all good but there was that small percent that were on ebay just to scam the seller. With the new ebay rules sellers all have 100% feedback now after 1 year all negative feedbacks do not count. The really bad thing is a seller can no longer look at a buyers feedback to see if he is the type that never pays because it is no longer possible to give buyers negative feedback. I sold about 20 items on ebay in the past 2 weeks 3 people did not pay and refuse to reply to email. If I had been able to check their negative feedback I would have blocked them from bidding on my auctions.

macona
09-09-2010, 03:40 PM
Hmmm...tying a seller to his driver's license and SS#....I like that.

I would also post their REAL NAME and PICTURE from their driver's license in the sales posting.

It would make accountability for fraud much easier.

It would make tax collection much easier too.

TMT

Cant use SSN. Federal law prohibits it from being used for anything other than taxes. Even the credit card companies are not supposed to be using it. You can refuse to give it to them and they will assign and ID number to you.

The only people that can legally ask for your SSN other than the IRS is your employer.

lazlo
09-09-2010, 04:19 PM
I sold on ebay for 9 years. I always wanted the buyer to save money if possible if they did not want insurance that was fine with me. If the buyer did not want tracking and wanted it sent by the cheapest rate that was fine with me too. But when the post office did not deliver the package then the buyer was Yelling fraud and wanted a replacement package or full refund.

...and they were absolutely within their rights (and the law) to request a replacement or a full refund.

When you buy an item from Amazon or Enco or Newegg, do you pay for insurance to make sure the package arrives? Of course not. Who is responsible if the package from Amazon or Buy.com or Newegg gets lost? The seller.


I started making everyone pay for tracking that solved 99.5% of the lots package problems but it make a lot of buyers MAD they did not want to pay the extra 60 cents of tracking and extra postage cost for piority mail.

I would absolutely refuse to pay for shipping insurance. Not because of the extra 60 cents, but because it's not my responsibility as the buyer to insure the item arrives. It's your responsibility as the seller to insure that the package arrives. Sorry that's not convenient for you, but that's how US commerce law works.

It's also why Ebay will no longer allow sellers to require insurance on the auction, because that violates the Uniform Commercial Code. You complained bitterly about that on PM too :)



PART 4. TITLE, CREDITORS AND GOOD FAITH PURCHASERS

§ 2-401. Passing of Title; Reservation for Security; Limited Application of This Section.

(2) Unless otherwise explicitly agreed title passes to the buyer at the time and place at which the seller completes performance with reference to the physical delivery of the goods, despite any reservation of a security interest and even though a document of title is to be delivered at a different time or place; and in particular and despite any reservation of a security interest by the bill of lading


Ebay's Terms of Service is very clear about this:


http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html

We do not transfer legal ownership of items from the seller to the buyer, and nothing in this agreement shall modify the governing provisions of California Commercial Code § 2401(2) and Uniform Commercial Code § 2-401(2)

Mcgyver
09-09-2010, 04:31 PM
But the buyers have the money.

And that is all that matters.

Sellers just need to suck it up and make the buyers happy.

TMT

good grief. The transaction price is the equilibrium between the value of the goods to one and money to the other. if you do everything to annoy to annoy sellers, know what happens? Some sellers will leave the market, supply drops, more dollars chasing fewer goods, prices rise. Who's that good for? This is economics 101. From someone claiming to run a business i expected more sophistication

aboard_epsilon
09-09-2010, 04:34 PM
I'm a buyer more than a seller .bought something like 200 items ..sold about 10

Looking at the replies here

I say it should be compulsory for every buyer to sell something ..so they get to see it from the other side of the fence .

the buyers in the replies here, seem to have blinkers on and tunnel vision.

and look like the kind of ones, that would probably bugger up you're auction, even if everything was spot on.

all the best.markj

squirrel
09-09-2010, 05:06 PM
Then all sellers would have 100% feedback again, and all the buyers would leave, like they did in 2007.

Is that what you want?
I don't know what you are talking about regarding buyers leaving in 2007, its been over 3 years and our eBay sales are still in a constant down slide. Our little pip-squeak website just hit a milestone of generating 60% of our revenue, that leaves the remaining 40% from eBay and other. Keep in mind our sales have not increased they are shifting from eBay to our website. In 2006 our revenue source was 100% eBay and almost 2 1/2 times our current sales. In other words eBay ain't s*** any more.....

Mcgyver
09-09-2010, 05:14 PM
I don't know what you are talking about regarding buyers leaving in 2007, its been over 3 years and our eBay sales are still in a constant down slide. Our little pip-squeak website just hit a milestone of generating 60% of our revenue, that leaves the remaining 40% from eBay and other. Keep in mind our sales have not increased they are shifting from eBay to our website. In 2006 our revenue source was 100% eBay and almost 2 1/2 times our current sales. In other words eBay ain't s*** any more.....

Interesting. Can you give some insight to the type if business and how you accomplished that? Ebay might be viewed as a bolt marketing channel giving huge reach; but you've been able to build your own....curious as to how you did it and how the nature of the product/market mix leant itself to it - ie few very expensive products/services to a small niche would be easier than a mass market for billions of widgets.

wirewrkr
09-09-2010, 05:17 PM
I'm a buyer more than a seller .bought something like 200 items ..sold about 10

Looking at the replies here

I say it should be compulsory for every buyer to sell something ..so they get to see it from the other side of the fence .

the buyers in the replies here, seem to have blinkers on and tunnel vision.

and look like the kind of ones, that would probably bugger up you're auction, even if everything was spot on.

all the best.markj


Very well put!
Just like every car driver should be forced to ride a motorbike for a month before qualifying to drive a car.

lazlo
09-09-2010, 05:21 PM
I don't know what you are talking about regarding buyers leaving in 2007, its been over 3 years and our eBay sales are still in a constant down slide.

From February, 2008:


http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9865616-7.html

In a move to curtail retaliation by vengeful sellers in its feedback system, eBay plans to prohibit sellers from posting negative feedback about their customers.

"The No. 1 reason buyers cited for decreasing or ceasing their activity on eBay was negative unwarranted retaliatory feedback they received from sellers," [Ebay Spokesman] Lieberman says.
"There has been a four-fold increase in this over the last several years. It's cited as a bigger problem than even not receiving shipment."

lazlo
09-09-2010, 05:36 PM
Looking at the replies here

I say it should be compulsory for every buyer to sell something ..so they get to see it from the other side of the fence.

I do sell on Ebay, and I have 100% Positive Feedback.

It boils down to 2 simple rules:


Don't sell crap.

Ebay is not intended as a venue for you to make beer money by flipping junk you've bought at yard sales. Honestly describe the item you're selling, and don't take pictures to hide flaws.


The seller is responsible for delivering the item to the buyer. Pack and ship accordingly.

Don't shove a heavy, odd-sized object into a USPS Flat Rate box with no packing and barely enough tape to hold the box closed, and then ignore the buyer when the item drops out at the first post office transit station:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/1277502-post32.html

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/IMG_0004_edited.jpg

aboard_epsilon
09-09-2010, 05:56 PM
Well i do have 100 % feedback

But... i read bad feedback on some sellers that I'm about to buy off ..and follow up and look at the auctions they are complaining about ..

And a few times I've seen a perfectly good description given ...all imperfections pointed out ...only to see the buyer complain about one of those in imperfections ...because they don't read the description and leave the poor old seller a negative ..

They also leave a negatives ..if the post is slow ..because of a bank holiday ..postal strike etc

They sometimes say.does not answer emails ....in the old days you would see.....the sellers retaliate by saying that the sellers email was AOL and they couldn't get thriough...which was probably true.

Out of those 10 items Ive sold.......... ...two non payers ..would not answer emails ...took a week before they finally paid.

its just by shear good luck lazlo that you haven't had any trouble.

all the best.markj

Too_Many_Tools
09-09-2010, 08:16 PM
Cant use SSN. Federal law prohibits it from being used for anything other than taxes. Even the credit card companies are not supposed to be using it. You can refuse to give it to them and they will assign and ID number to you.

The only people that can legally ask for your SSN other than the IRS is your employer.


Through Paypal and your bank account they have access to your SS#.

The more I think about it I really like the idea of having sellers have their REAL NAME posted on the auction.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-09-2010, 08:25 PM
I'm a buyer more than a seller .bought something like 200 items ..sold about 10

Looking at the replies here

I say it should be compulsory for every buyer to sell something ..so they get to see it from the other side of the fence .

the buyers in the replies here, seem to have blinkers on and tunnel vision.

and look like the kind of ones, that would probably bugger up you're auction, even if everything was spot on.

all the best.markj

This buyer sees clearly.

The buyers have the money.

The system does not work without it.

The sellers need to suck it up if they want to sell on Ebay.

Otherwise sell locally...face to face and in cash only.

No one is making you use Ebay.

The sellers who are whining are unwilling to take responsiblity for their choice to sell on Ebay.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-09-2010, 08:35 PM
good grief. The transaction price is the equilibrium between the value of the goods to one and money to the other. if you do everything to annoy to annoy sellers, know what happens? Some sellers will leave the market, supply drops, more dollars chasing fewer goods, prices rise. Who's that good for? This is economics 101. From someone claiming to run a business i expected more sophistication


Econimics 101? LOL.

"As is, used, God knows what the quality is" supply and blind "let's hope for the best" demand...with Buy It Nevers, reserves and crooked sellers sending empty packages.

Screw the buyer over and over...until finally they say goodbye and demand moves to Amazon and then Ebay squeezes the sellers to get the buyers back.

Suck it up sellers...you have a long way to go to rewin the trust of the buyers.

TMT

ADGO_Racing
09-09-2010, 10:15 PM
Actually, leaving Ebay was a big plus to me. I started my own site, selling my stuff. Yes it still needs some work, but I am getting emails and calls that are turning into sales regularly. I also use Bonanzle and Upillar, I have had quite a few sales on those two sites, interestingly enough, I get calls or emails from them, that then turn into offline sales.

So Ebay can take their greedy ways and stuff them! Contrary to Ebays belief, they are NOT the only online selling venue.

gary350
09-09-2010, 10:50 PM
My feedback never went below 97% the whole 9 years I was a seller and buyer too. Now my feedback is 100% with the new rules.

Many many times I had buyers look at the picture and bid, then complain and leave me negative feedback after they received an item they were not happy with. It was the idiots own fault for NOT READING the auction page. GEEEEZ !!!!

Once I sold an old Gold Pocket watch for my father. I had it apraised they said because it was over wound, hands fallen off, crystal is missing it was only worth the value of the GOLD $25. I listed it starting bid price $24.99 the auction said, watch is over wound, hands have fallen off, crystal is missing, sold as is. Buyer sent me an email complained the watch is over wound, hands have fallen off, the crystal is missing then left me negative feedback. I sent the buyer and email that went something like this, "If you would READ before you BID you would know what you are BUYING." I left the buyer feedback that said the same thing, "If you would READ before you BID you would know what you are BUYING."

You have to be a seller for a while to know what its like. I think I have seen it all. I had a lot of buyers try and blackmail me, telling me they would give me negative feedback if I didn't send the item for free. I started reporting this to ebay right away before the buyer had a chance to leave me negative feedback. Ebay had a way to read emails sent to me by the buyer and it didn't take but a few hours and that buyer was BANNED from ebay.

It was not that easy making a profit on ebay with the low dollar items I was selling. A lot of my stuff was cleaning out the attic, cleaning out the garage, selling things for my father before he died he was 85 years old and needed the money social security was not paying his bills. After paying both ebay fees, paypal fees, spending lots of time putting things in a box with packing, paying for tape and packing there was only a small profit. I could have yard saled it with a lot less hastle. If I didn't discribe the item EXACTLY a buyer would inspect the item with a microscope and complain it has a microscopic scratch you can see only in certain lighting conditions only if you stand outside in direct sun light and he wants a refund or price reduction or he will leave negative feedback. GEEEEEZ I think some buyers are just looking for an excuse to complain about anything just to get it cheaper or give me a full refund. I am not a business I am just clearing out stuff I don't want or need. Many times if it was a low $$$ item I would just tell the buyer, Keep the thing for free I hope your happy with it and I would give him a refund and be done with it.

I am glad I am off ebay no more head aches and more more jerks to deal with.

Too_Many_Tools
09-09-2010, 11:16 PM
Actually, leaving Ebay was a big plus to me. I started my own site, selling my stuff. Yes it still needs some work, but I am getting emails and calls that are turning into sales regularly. I also use Bonanzle and Upillar, I have had quite a few sales on those two sites, interestingly enough, I get calls or emails from them, that then turn into offline sales.

So Ebay can take their greedy ways and stuff them! Contrary to Ebays belief, they are NOT the only online selling venue.


Good luck with your efforts.

If you turn out to be the next Ebay, how will you do it different being that you will be the CEO?

TMT

wierdscience
09-09-2010, 11:17 PM
I do sell on Ebay, and I have 100% Positive Feedback.

.


The seller is responsible for delivering the item to the buyer. Pack and ship accordingly.
[/IMG]

Not exactly,An Ebay auction page is a contract,each heading on that page is a clause in that contract.

The first header is the legal description,your telling the buyer the specs and condition of the item.

Next is the shipping/delivery header,your telling the buyer what shipping methods you will provide.

The final header details payment methods you accept.

When the buyer places a bid they are agreeing to the terms set in your contract.

If in your shipping header/clause you have listed UPS,FEDEX,USPS as your shipping options.Then your responsibility is to deliver the item to the shipper (third party trustee)designated in the contract.Your responsibility ends at that point as you have fulfilled your contract.The responsibility to the buyer for delivery is then assumed by the shipper.The contract for delivery is between the shipper and the buyer at this point.This is one reason why shipping charges are calculated seperately.

If the buyer pays for insurance the seller can out of courtesy opt to handle insurance claims on behalf of the buyer.The seller is not required to do so,the seller is only required to provide whatever documentation the insurance claim requires for settlement.

I've been to small claims court twice in ten years for this and won both times as my responsibility to the buyer was simply to deliver to the freight carrier as the contract stipulated.

Too_Many_Tools
09-09-2010, 11:21 PM
My feedback never went below 97% the whole 9 years I was a seller and buyer too. Now my feedback is 100% with the new rules.

Many many times I had buyers look at the picture and bid, then complain and leave me negative feedback after they received an item they were not happy with. It was the idiots own fault for NOT READING the auction page. GEEEEZ !!!!

Once I sold an old Gold Pocket watch for my father. I had it apraised they said because it was over wound, hands fallen off, crystal is missing it was only worth the value of the GOLD $25. I listed it starting bid price $24.99 the auction said, watch is over wound, hands have fallen off, crystal is missing, sold as is. Buyer sent me an email complained the watch is over wound, hands have fallen off, the crystal is missing then left me negative feedback. I sent the buyer and email that went something like this, "If you would READ before you BID you would know what you are BUYING." I left the buyer feedback that said the same thing, "If you would READ before you BID you would know what you are BUYING."

You have to be a seller for a while to know what its like. I think I have seen it all. I had a lot of buyers try and blackmail me, telling me they would give me negative feedback if I didn't send the item for free. I started reporting this to ebay right away before the buyer had a chance to leave me negative feedback. Ebay had a way to read emails sent to me by the buyer and it didn't take but a few hours and that buyer was BANNED from ebay.

It was not that easy making a profit on ebay with the low dollar items I was selling. A lot of my stuff was cleaning out the attic, cleaning out the garage, selling things for my father before he died he was 85 years old and needed the money social security was not paying his bills. After paying both ebay fees, paypal fees, spending lots of time putting things in a box with packing, paying for tape and packing there was only a small profit. I could have yard saled it with a lot less hastle. If I didn't discribe the item EXACTLY a buyer would inspect the item with a microscope and complain it has a microscopic scratch you can see only in certain lighting conditions only if you stand outside in direct sun light and he wants a refund or price reduction or he will leave negative feedback. GEEEEEZ I think some buyers are just looking for an excuse to complain about anything just to get it cheaper or give me a full refund. I am not a business I am just clearing out stuff I don't want or need. Many times if it was a low $$$ item I would just tell the buyer, Keep the thing for free I hope your happy with it and I would give him a refund and be done with it.

I am glad I am off ebay no more head aches and more more jerks to deal with.


So why did you sell on Ebay if it was such a pain?

Why not sell it at a garage sale?

Could it be that you still made more money than selling it locally?

TMT

ADGO_Racing
09-09-2010, 11:25 PM
Good luck with your efforts.

If you turn out to be the next Ebay, how will you do it different being that you will be the CEO?

TMT

I didn't start an auction site....I simply sell my own stuff from a website. I use Bonanzle and Upillar as additional advertising.

squirrel
09-10-2010, 09:07 AM
I didn't start an auction site....I simply sell my own stuff from a website. I use Bonanzle and Upillar as additional advertising.
The problem with listing on Bonazle and Upillar does not appear until you do a google search for your item. Even a long tail search for your item will have eBay, Bonz, Upillar placed higher on the page and will bump your site back a couple of lines or worse, pages. Set your website description/meta tag for a long tail search and vary the Bonz, Upillar, Ebay title. The best way to kill eBay over powering your own site in Google base / Google organic is to use 2 tier pricing. Your own site must be priced lower than your eBay listing because eBay affiliates choke the first two or three pages of google with links to ebay auctions (Not to change the subject but eBay affiliates collect 50% of the selling fees!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) currently google is weighing search results with price comparison, I am sure this will stop when eBay starts to cry about it. But like eBay's instablility, Google changes their search algorithms weekly so what is hot today will leave you bankrupt 60 days later.

lazlo
09-10-2010, 11:21 AM
If in your shipping header/clause you have listed UPS,FEDEX,USPS as your shipping options.Then your responsibility is to deliver the item to the shipper (third party trustee)designated in the contract.Your responsibility ends at that point as you have fulfilled your contract.

That's not correct Darin. The law (and Ebay) are very clear about this: the seller has not completed the sale until he/she delivers the item to the buyer.
The seller can use USPS, UPS, or the Pony Express, but it's the seller's responsibility to deliver the item.

When you're a seller on Ebay, you're bound by the same laws as Amazon or Enco: if the package goes missing in transit, it's the seller's problem, not the buyer's.

That's why Ebay and the credit card companies (including Paypal) will instantly refund your full purchase price (including shipping) if the seller fails to deliver the item. I have no idea why some sellers like Gary and StanP (former infamous PM seller and Ebay soundrel) got the idea that their responsiblity ended as soon as they shipped the item.

It's like those signs on trucks "NOT responsible for cracked windshields". Uhhh, OK :rolleyes: I should get a bumper sticker that says "NOT responsible for collision damage" :D



PART 4. TITLE, CREDITORS AND GOOD FAITH PURCHASERS

§ 2-401. Passing of Title; Reservation for Security; Limited Application of This Section.

(2) Unless otherwise explicitly agreed title passes to the buyer at the time and place at which the seller completes performance with reference to the physical delivery of the goods, despite any reservation of a security interest and even though a document of title is to be delivered at a different time or place; and in particular and despite any reservation of a security interest by the bill of lading


Ebay's Terms of Service is very clear about this:


http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html

We do not transfer legal ownership of items from the seller to the buyer, and nothing in this agreement shall modify the governing provisions of California Commercial Code § 2401(2) and Uniform Commercial Code § 2-401(2)

lazlo
09-10-2010, 11:24 AM
A lot of my stuff was cleaning out the attic, cleaning out the garage,

Rule number 1: Don't sell junk.


If I didn't discribe the item EXACTLY a buyer would inspect the item with a microscope and complain it has a microscopic scratch you can see only in certain lighting conditions only if you stand outside in direct sun light and he wants a refund or price reduction or he will leave negative feedback.

The corollary to Rule Number 1: describe the item honestly and don't take pictures to hide flaws on the item.


I am glad I am off ebay no more head aches and more more jerks to deal with.

I'm glad you're not on Ebay anymore either Gary. Judging by your comments here and on Practical Machinist, you're the reason the feedback rules were changed.
When you posted this same rant on PracticalMachinist back in January, you got a similar response. Go figure.

By contrast, I've had over a thousand transactions on Ebay, many with members here (John Stevenson, JC Hannum, ...) and on Practical Machinist, and the vast majority of them are honest, and pleasant to deal with.

Too_Many_Tools
09-10-2010, 11:42 AM
I do sell on Ebay, and I have 100% Positive Feedback.

It boils down to 2 simple rules:


Don't sell crap.

Ebay is not intended as a venue for you to make beer money by flipping junk you've bought at yard sales. Honestly describe the item you're selling, and don't take pictures to hide flaws.


The seller is responsible for delivering the item to the buyer. Pack and ship accordingly.

Don't shove a heavy, odd-sized object into a USPS Flat Rate box with no packing and barely enough tape to hold the box closed, and then ignore the buyer when the item drops out at the first post office transit station:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/1277502-post32.html

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/IMG_0004_edited.jpg

That package looks GREAT compared to some that I received when I was actively buying on Ebay. More than once the shipper would bring my package to me in PIECES...an obvious case of the seller didn't package properly.

TMT

ADGO_Racing
09-10-2010, 11:46 AM
The best way to kill eBay over powering your own site in Google base / Google organic is to use 2 tier pricing. Your own site must be priced lower than your eBay listing because eBay affiliates choke the first two or three pages of google with links to ebay auctions (Not to change the subject but eBay affiliates collect 50% of the selling fees!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) currently google is weighing search results with price comparison, I am sure this will stop when eBay starts to cry about it. But like eBay's instablility, Google changes their search algorithms weekly so what is hot today will leave you bankrupt 60 days later.

Ebay doesn't care. I did that about two years ago, Ebay found the listings on another site cheaper, and demanded I lower my price on Ebay to the prices on other sites. (sent me links to supposed user agreement B.S. It is amazing how that stuff is non existent until you do something they do not like.) I replied that I would lower my listing prices on ebay when they lowered their fees. They replied I must raise my prices on the other site and that I had 48 hours. I refused, they removed my listings, and billed me. I refused to pay their fees. They tried a collection agency, I tried a lawyer.....I win...I never heard another word from them. I paid the lawyer far less than Ebay thought I owed.

Too_Many_Tools
09-10-2010, 11:52 AM
Do you think sellers have yet to realize that the changes to Ebay were made to flush out the bad sellers?

And we have yet to see one seller step up and say that having his name and face on his Ebay auction is a good idea.

And while I am on the subject of full disclosure, how about having the REAL location of the seller and the item disclosed on the auction?

TMT

lakeside53
09-10-2010, 11:53 AM
That's not correct Darin. The law (and Ebay) are very clear about this: the seller has not completed the sale until he/she delivers the item to the buyer.

The seller can use USPS, UPS, or the Pony Express, but it's the seller's responsibility to deliver the item.




D



Yes... The only way I'm aware of getting around this is selecting the "local pickup only" option, and the buyer arranges the shiping.

lazlo
09-10-2010, 11:54 AM
That package looks GREAT compared to some that I received when I was actively buying on Ebay.

That was a very sad story. Seller (he's a member on PM) had a bunch of CPM 10V drops. I win the Ebay auction, and he sends me an email that he had a ton more of the 10V drops, would I like 40 lbs worth. Sure!

So the box arrives, and there are 3 little coaster-sized drops, weighing maybe 3 lbs. He had shoved 40 lbs of random powdered metal tool steel drops in a flat-rate USPS box with NO packing, and a single strip of tape across the seam :mad:

I email him and send him pictures of what happened, and he begrudgingly sends another box.... packed exactly the same way :eek: Arrived with a single piece of CPM 10V.

So I shoot him another email, and somewhere in the body I said something like "Why, after I explained that you can't put 40 lbs of tool steel in a flat rate box with no packing and a single strip of tape would you send another box packed the same way?"

He said I was being belligerent and impossible to please, and that he had shipped 80 lbs of tool steel, and felt that he had fullfilled his part of the transaction. Oh, my head.

I pointed out that there were 80 lbs of expensive tool steel drops that were strewn from Michigan to the Dallas, but only 4 lbs had made it to Austin.

Finally, on the third try, he figured it out: he put the drops in a sheet of heavy paper and taped it so they weren't rolling around inside the USPS Flat Rate box, and he wrapped the outside of the box with two strips of glass tape. That's all it took, and the box showed up intact.

Hopefully there are some postal workers who are home-shop machinists, because there's a ton of CPM 10V drops at all the postal facilities between Michigan and Austin :)

Too_Many_Tools
09-10-2010, 11:57 AM
Yes... The only way I'm aware of getting around this is selecting the "local pickup only" option, and the buyer arranges the shiping.


Why would anyone want to get around this?

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-10-2010, 12:06 PM
That was a very sad story. Seller (he's a member on PM) had a bunch of CPM 10V drops. I win the Ebay auction, and he sends me an email that he had a ton more of the 10V drops, would I like 40 lbs worth. Sure!

So the box arrives, and there are 3 little coaster-sized drops, weighing maybe 3 lbs. He had shoved 40 lbs of random powdered metal tool steel drops in a flat-rate USPS box with NO packing, and a single strip of tape across the seam :mad:

I email him and send him pictures of what happened, and he begrudgingly sends another box.... packed exactly the same way :eek: Arrived with a single piece of CPM 10V.

So I shoot him another email, and somewhere in the body I said something like "Why, after I explained that you can't put 40 lbs of tool steel in a flat rate box with no packing and a single strip of tape would you send another box packed the same way?"

He said I was being belligerent and impossible to please, and that he had shipped 80 lbs of tool steel, and felt that he had fullfilled his part of the transaction. Oh, my head.

I pointed out that there were 80 lbs of expensive tool steel drops that were strewn from Michigan to the Dallas, but only 4 lbs had made it to Austin.

Finally, on the third try, he figured it out: he put the drops in a sheet of heavy paper and taped it so they weren't rolling around inside the USPS Flat Rate box, and he wrapped the outside of the box with two strips of glass tape. That's all it took, and the box showed up intact.

Hopefully there are some postal workers who are home-shop machinists, because there's a ton of CPM 10V drops at all the postal facilities between Michigan and Austin :)


Good story...I repeatily had packages sent to me that were damaged and pieces were lost, components broken...heck, one package arrived with only shreds of the package only...the contents were totally gone.

This was when I would carefully explain to the seller BEFORE the shipping the type of packaging I expected and PAID FOR.

TMT

lazlo
09-10-2010, 12:11 PM
Funny coincidence -- I bought 100 lbs of titanium from Andy (Lakeside). He shipped it in two flat-rate boxes. They were well-packed, and arrived with absolutely no issue (other than the postman always complaining that I get a lot of heavy boxes).

ADGO_Racing
09-10-2010, 12:14 PM
I will say this, before Ebay got greedy and stupid (A bad combination), I only ever had one problem and it was the guy in Mexico. I knew as soon as he bought the item I was in for a negative. Yes I did leave him a negative for his wonderful negative, as my listing clearly stated I DID NOT SHIP INTERNATIONAL. I know the Mexicans think that Mexico is just the 51st state, but it is still another country at this time.

I had a lot of great sales, I did not leave Ebay because of the buyers, but because of Ebays stupidity and greed.

I still buy on Ebay occasionally. I recently had to do some electrical work, I needed a few relatively special things. I found them on Ebay, new old stock for about 1/4 of new price. The items were exactly as advertised, and one of the two different things I ordered came from Arizona, it arrived the second day, well packaged. The other item was relatively local, it arrived very well packaged and the day after I bought it. Excellent service from both sellers!

I can't say I was ever "burned" on Ebay as a buyer. I have bought a couple smaller items that were questionable when I was buying them. However, I read the description and looked at the picture(s), and for the price I bid, I was OK with the sale whether it was usable or not. I never complained or left negative feedback. It was my best informed decision, and I got what I bought.

lakeside53
09-10-2010, 12:19 PM
Why would anyone want to get around this?

TMT


The seller often wants to.... Typically if you're sellng some chunk of iron that can't be sent via the UPS, USPS etc... and need to go by truck, loaded, packed and rigged...

Mcgyver
09-10-2010, 12:22 PM
Been an Ebay seller and buyer since 2001,never had any problems,though I did get burned on a an arbor press I bought once.

.......

And I have no problems shipping to Canada,but it must go UPS/FEDEX-I refuse to wait 3 months while Canada post flogs the donkey to complete a transaction.

.

my experience has been the same, no problems so far....and almost everything (buy/sell) has been across the border. Yet Gary claims to have hundreds of problems? Go figure.

I wish you'd reconsider your postal policy for both our sakes. The post office shipments seem just like a courier; it arrives by a truck to your door with a tracking number and handheld device recording a e-signature...same as a UPS and probably faster. Meanwhile, we love to hate UPS because of their incredible ability to concoct extra fees. Your policy discourages bidding....going from 1 to 2 bids on an item makes all the difference and to me it makes sense for Vendors to do everything to bring this about


The only reason we block NON-USA bidders is due eBay's B.S. feedback policy. NON-USA bidders were leaving us bad feedback for shipping time and high costs, both issues are beyond our control.

I think the issue is managing communication/expectations rather than that your buyer isn't in the lower 48. Why would selling to me alter the probability of a negative feedback? I can see when you ship, I can see how its packaged, I have a tracking number, I know its not going to arrive the next day etc etc

Not that this describes you as you do sell to Canada direct, but so many times I watch obstinate uninformed sellers sell at the opening bid when i would have jumped in had they made an effort to encourage my business (like listing a rate to Canada). Its frustrating because its a bad policy for both of us, and I don't see where its rooted in fact; this idea that selling to someone here is more challenging than a domestic buyer.

gary350
09-10-2010, 01:14 PM
So why did you sell on Ebay if it was such a pain?

Why not sell it at a garage sale?

Could it be that you still made more money than selling it locally?

TMT


Yard sales are too much trouble. That is how I got started on ebay. We rounded up stuff for a yard sale for 3 years but kept putting it off. You take a $100 item put a price of $1 on it and people offer you a dime. Send the whole weekend working for $30. Then you have 80% of the yard sale stuff left over. After putting off having a yard sale for 3 years I got a camera for christmas. I took pics of everything and listed it on ebay cheap and it all got a new home. I was glad to get rid of it and made $2000. doing it. After paying all the fees it was less than $2K but still much better than a yard sale.

One time I had a yard sale we had moved and we had a brand new aluminum screen door that would not fit the new house we paid $100 for it. I listed it for $10 in the yard sale I reduced the price over and over later in the day the price was $1. Some woman started picking at the door pointing out tiny little dings and scratches and offered me a dime. At that same time a young lady with children came up and said she needed a door for the children and had been looking for an aluminum door all day she said I can't afford much what is the price on the door. I told her that she could have it for FREE her eyes light up like 2 light bulbs, she thanked me about 10 times and I helped her load it. You should have seen the look on the face of that woman that offered me a dime.

If someone asks me for help I will give them anything I can, I will help them in any way I can, I will go out of my way to do them a favor but when some nobody self appointed Dogooder starts ordering me around and telling me what I can and can not do I will give them a war they won't believe.

squirrel
09-10-2010, 01:24 PM
Ebay doesn't care. I did that about two years ago, Ebay found the listings on another site cheaper, and demanded I lower my price on Ebay to the prices on other sites. (sent me links to supposed user agreement B.S. It is amazing how that stuff is non existent until you do something they do not like.) I replied that I would lower my listing prices on ebay when they lowered their fees. They replied I must raise my prices on the other site and that I had 48 hours. I refused, they removed my listings, and billed me. I refused to pay their fees. They tried a collection agency, I tried a lawyer.....I win...I never heard another word from them. I paid the lawyer far less than Ebay thought I owed.
They started all this BS, we were 100% eBay and happy (actually proud of it due to our sucess, now we are embarassed to mention eBay) with it until a few years ago.......

The most recent blunder was dumping all the store inventory items into core search our eBay sales dropped 65% IMMEDIATELY!!! How many business can survive with an overnite reduction in revenue of that magnitude. eBay sure the hell could not. Our rep said that it was not fair to the eBay store sellers that were only paying 10 cents to list for 30 days. Now eBay is flooded with worthless junk you cannot find value items.

Deja Vu
09-10-2010, 02:01 PM
Now eBay is flooded with worthless junk you cannot find value items.

That's just not true..... you can still find items of value.

.....ebay has always been flooded with junk though.

squirrel
09-10-2010, 02:04 PM
That's just not true..... you can still find items of value.

.....ebay has always been flooded with junk though.
I think my choice of words was not correct, you are right. It's just much more difficult to find the items of value. When a catagory goes from 800 items to over 4800 items it can be considered similiar to wee-wee'n in the ocean.

wierdscience
09-10-2010, 02:20 PM
That's not correct Darin. The law (and Ebay) are very clear about this: the seller has not completed the sale until he/she delivers the item to the buyer.
The seller can use USPS, UPS, or the Pony Express, but it's the seller's responsibility to deliver the item.

When you're a seller on Ebay, you're bound by the same laws as Amazon or Enco: if the package goes missing in transit, it's the seller's problem, not the buyer's.

That's why Ebay and the credit card companies (including Paypal) will instantly refund your full purchase price (including shipping) if the seller fails to deliver the item. I have no idea why some sellers like Gary and StanP (former infamous PM seller and Ebay soundrel) got the idea that their responsiblity ended as soon as they shipped the item.

It's like those signs on trucks "NOT responsible for cracked windshields". Uhhh, OK :rolleyes: I should get a bumper sticker that says "NOT responsible for collision damage" :D

Completely wrong and not one but two judges agreed.You didn't read far enough down.

Your responsibility as the seller is to deliver to the shipping company specified and make all documents pertaining to the shipment availible to your customer and that's it.

Delivery is indeed by agreed contract,don't believe me,buy a Bridgeport for local pickup only and then demand they ship it:rolleyes: The only thing the seller is responsible for is allowing access to the buyer or his agent for pickup in the specified time.

§ 2-301. General Obligations of Parties.

The obligation of the seller is to transfer and deliver and that of the buyer is to accept and pay in accordance with the contract.

§ 2-303. Allocation or Division of Risks.

Where this Article allocates a risk or a burden as between the parties "unless otherwise agreed", the agreement may not only shift the allocation but may also divide the risk or burden.

§ 2-503. Manner of Seller's Tender of Delivery.

(1) Tender of delivery requires that the seller put and hold conforming goods at the buyer's disposition and give the buyer any notification reasonably necessary to enable him to take delivery. The manner, time and place for tender are determined by the agreement and this Article, and in particular

(a) tender must be at a reasonable hour, and if it is of goods they must be kept available for the period reasonably necessary to enable the buyer to take possession; but

(b) unless otherwise agreed the buyer must furnish facilities reasonably suited to the receipt of the goods.

(2) Where the case is within the next section respecting shipment tender requires that the seller comply with its provisions.

(3) Where the seller is required to deliver at a particular destination tender requires that he comply with subsection (1) and also in any appropriate case tender documents as described in subsections (4) and (5) of this section.

(4) Where goods are in the possession of a bailee and are to be delivered without being moved

(a) tender requires that the seller either tender a negotiable document of title covering such goods or procure acknowledgment by the bailee of the buyer's right to possession of the goods; but

(b) tender to the buyer of a non-negotiable document of title or of a record directing the bailee to deliver is sufficient tender unless the buyer seasonably objects, and except as otherwise provided in Article 9 receipt by the bailee of notification of the buyer's rights fixes those rights as against the bailee and all third persons; but risk of loss of the goods and of any failure by the bailee to honor the non-negotiable document of title or to obey the direction remains on the seller until the buyer has had a reasonable time to present the document or direction, and a refusal by the bailee to honor the document or to obey the direction defeats the tender.

(5) Where the contract requires the seller to deliver documents

(a) he must tender all such documents in correct form, except as provided in this Article with respect to bills of lading in a set (subsection (2) of Section 2-323); and

(b) tender through customary banking channels is sufficient and dishonor of a draft accompanying or associated with the documents constitutes non-acceptance or rejection.

§ 2-504. Shipment by Seller.

Where the seller is required or authorized to send the goods to the buyer and the contract does not require him to deliver them at a particular destination, then unless otherwise agreed he must

(a) put the goods in the possession of such a carrier and make such a contract for their transportation as may be reasonable having regard to the nature of the goods and other circumstances of the case; and

(b) obtain and promptly deliver or tender in due form any document necessary to enable the buyer to obtain possession of the goods or otherwise required by the agreement or by usage of trade; and

(c) promptly notify the buyer of the shipment.

Failure to notify the buyer under paragraph (c) or to make a proper contract under paragraph (a) is a ground for rejection only if material delay or loss ensues.

wierdscience
09-10-2010, 02:38 PM
my experience has been the same, no problems so far....and almost everything (buy/sell) has been across the border. Yet Gary claims to have hundreds of problems? Go figure.

I wish you'd reconsider your postal policy for both our sakes. The post office shipments seem just like a courier; it arrives by a truck to your door with a tracking number and handheld device recording a e-signature...same as a UPS and probably faster. Meanwhile, we love to hate UPS because of their incredible ability to concoct extra fees. Your policy discourages bidding....going from 1 to 2 bids on an item makes all the difference and to me it makes sense for Vendors to do everything to bring this about

I think the issue is managing communication/expectations rather than that your buyer isn't in the lower 48. Why would selling to me alter the probability of a negative feedback? I can see when you ship, I can see how its packaged, I have a tracking number, I know its not going to arrive the next day etc etc

Not that this describes you as you do sell to Canada direct, but so many times I watch obstinate uninformed sellers sell at the opening bid when i would have jumped in had they made an effort to encourage my business (like listing a rate to Canada). Its frustrating because its a bad policy for both of us, and I don't see where its rooted in fact; this idea that selling to someone here is more challenging than a domestic buyer.

Here's my experience,if your in a major city in Canada it's no problem,delivery is usually 6-10 days total time USPS.

However better than half of the sales I have had in Canada have been people living out in the sticks.In those cases it can take a very long time to complete a sale.One such sale was a guy in Sash.he wanted to pay with a money order,no problem,it arrived in a week and I shipped the same day.Tracking showed it arrived at the border 2 days later.6-1/2 weeks later he got the package.For whatever reason it took Canada post a long time to get it there.That has been the norm for most folks living outside the pop centers.I have shipped items to NZ and England and had them beat the ones going to Canada,go figure.

The other problem is folks not wanting to declare the item value on the customs/insurance form.I insure things when I ship,try collecting the insurance on a lost parcel when the customs form is checked $0.00 and "gift".It doesn't exactly brighten the day of my local claims agent:rolleyes:

I still ship to known buyers in Canada via USPS,but I am not eager to take on any new ones.

Deja Vu
09-10-2010, 02:39 PM
I think my choice of words was not correct, you are right. It's just much more difficult to find the items of value. When a catagory goes from 800 items to over 4800 items it can be considered similiar to wee-wee'n in the ocean.
I don't get it? A catagory increases in volume. The volume increase of items both benefitted to the broad exposure for the spectrum of value. The vast availability gives the buyer a choice.

I just can't see how you insist on slamming Ebay.

aboard_epsilon
09-10-2010, 02:52 PM
The volume increase of items both benefitted to the broad exposure for the spectrum of value. The vast availability gives the buyer a choice.

that sounds like a statement by ebay not you

sort of along the lines of every time they put the prices up and call it "New Services To Enhance Your Experience On eBay"...
or something like that .

all the best.markj

Deja Vu
09-10-2010, 03:13 PM
that sounds like a statement by ebay not you

sort of along the lines of every time they put the prices up and call it "New Services To Enhance Your Experience On eBay"...
or something like that .

all the best.markj

...that was mine....not ebay's

squirrel
09-10-2010, 05:58 PM
I don't get it? A catagory increases in volume. The volume increase of items both benefitted to the broad exposure for the spectrum of value. The vast availability gives the buyer a choice.

I just can't see how you insist on slamming Ebay.

If you model eBay it is like 1 shopping mall.
Inside that mall you have 10,000 vendors selling shoes.
You only need 1 pair of shoes.
Your willingness to browse 10,000 stores is more than likely zero.
How many stores are you going to visit before, either buying a pair of shoes or going home.

Yes, you can narrow it down IF you already know the model number, then it becomes a price point issue.
If you want to browse the category (in the model different stores) you will become tired and lose interest due to "vendor overload"

Too_Many_Tools
09-10-2010, 06:06 PM
Yard sales are too much trouble. That is how I got started on ebay. We rounded up stuff for a yard sale for 3 years but kept putting it off. You take a $100 item put a price of $1 on it and people offer you a dime. Send the whole weekend working for $30. Then you have 80% of the yard sale stuff left over. After putting off having a yard sale for 3 years I got a camera for christmas. I took pics of everything and listed it on ebay cheap and it all got a new home. I was glad to get rid of it and made $2000. doing it. After paying all the fees it was less than $2K but still much better than a yard sale.

One time I had a yard sale we had moved and we had a brand new aluminum screen door that would not fit the new house we paid $100 for it. I listed it for $10 in the yard sale I reduced the price over and over later in the day the price was $1. Some woman started picking at the door pointing out tiny little dings and scratches and offered me a dime. At that same time a young lady with children came up and said she needed a door for the children and had been looking for an aluminum door all day she said I can't afford much what is the price on the door. I told her that she could have it for FREE her eyes light up like 2 light bulbs, she thanked me about 10 times and I helped her load it. You should have seen the look on the face of that woman that offered me a dime.

If someone asks me for help I will give them anything I can, I will help them in any way I can, I will go out of my way to do them a favor but when some nobody self appointed Dogooder starts ordering me around and telling me what I can and can not do I will give them a war they won't believe.

Okay..so you are saying that yard sales are more trouble than Ebay.

And if Ebay is too much trouble...why don't you donate the stuff to charity and take the tax deduction?

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-10-2010, 06:11 PM
They started all this BS, we were 100% eBay and happy (actually proud of it due to our sucess, now we are embarassed to mention eBay) with it until a few years ago.......

The most recent blunder was dumping all the store inventory items into core search our eBay sales dropped 65% IMMEDIATELY!!! How many business can survive with an overnite reduction in revenue of that magnitude. eBay sure the hell could not. Our rep said that it was not fair to the eBay store sellers that were only paying 10 cents to list for 30 days. Now eBay is flooded with worthless junk you cannot find value items.

LOL...Ebay has ALWAYS been flooded with worthless crap.

Even in its heyday when I was spending thousands a month on Ebay, it would take close to an hour of wading through the junk listings to find something of value.

TMT

squirrel
09-10-2010, 07:04 PM
Okay..so you are saying that yard sales are more trouble than Ebay.

And if Ebay is too much trouble...why don't you donate the stuff to charity and take the tax deduction?

TMT
We send all of our rejects to swap meets. Stuff that was not high enough quality for the dot com and main eBay account would go the "secret" ebay account and unloaded, that turned into a big nightmare and we have stopped it. It all goes out to flea markets and it does not come back and turns into a HIGHER value their than on eBay. It just shows the state of eBay, its pretty bad when micro dot of local buyers can find more money to spend than buyers using a "global" market place.

lazlo
09-10-2010, 08:34 PM
Completely wrong and not one but two judges agreed.You didn't read far enough down.

Your responsibility as the seller is to deliver to the shipping company specified and make all documents pertaining to the shipment availible to your customer and that's it.

I'm sorry Darin, but that's simply not true. You posted the rest of that section of the Uniform Commerical Code, and none of that contradicts the main point:


(2) Unless otherwise explicitly agreed title passes to the buyer at the time and place at which the seller completes performance with reference to the physical delivery of the goods

I'm not conjecturing -- the courts, the credit card companies, and Ebay will all refund your full purchase price plus shipping if the seller does not deliver the item. Ask any seller here -- many of them have experienced this first hand, and complained about it bitterly. In fact, it's the subject of Gary's original post! :)

I've resorted to the Uniform Commercial Code in 3 cases, and the credit card company instantly -- as in, while you're on the phone, charges back the full amount plus shipping until and unless the seller proves that you've received the item.

Think about it -- if you order an item from Enco, and it doesn't arrive, do you call UPS, or do you call Enco? Who sends the replacement item? Enco sure isn't sending the replacement out of good will... Enco will certainly take the issue up with UPS, but other than confirming that you didn't receive the item, the buyer isn't involved in any shipping insurance issues.


don't believe me,buy a Bridgeport for local pickup only and then demand they ship it

As Andy pointed out two pages back, local pickup is specifically excluded from the Uniform Commercial Code. But local pickup has to be agreed upon by both parties (buyer and seller). If you live next door to Enco in Arizona, and you buy a Bridgeport shipped, Enco is responsible for it until it's delivered to your house.

wierdscience
09-11-2010, 12:21 AM
I'm sorry Darin, but that's simply not true. You posted the rest of that section of the Uniform Commerical Code, and none of that contradicts the main point:
.

And the main point of my argument is exactly what you posted,but fail to see-

Unless otherwise explicitly agreed

By clicking "confirm" when you place a bid on Ebay you are agreeing explicitly to the terms described in the sellers terms.They even warn you that you are entering into a binding legal contract.

Furthermore when a buyer refuses insurance he or she has assumed ALL risk.At that point the seller need only provide a receipt from the shipper that they shipped it.If it's lost,busted open,dropped out of a plane to bad.They assumed the risk that it might happen.

Ask yourself this,if the UCC applies to Ebay sellers as per your interpretation then why does Ebay and Paypal offer Buyer Protection?

Now the clincher,do you understand the difference between a Shipment contract and a Delivery contract? If not then maybe you should read up-

http://www.scribd.com/doc/22374235/The-Uniform-Commercial-Code-and-Risk-of-Loss-for-Shipments

As to credit card charge backs and Paypal charge backs they don't investigate most small claims,used to be the threshold was $250 probably more now.It's not cost effective to do so.Instead they are turned over to the shippers insurance as claims or if the sender is self insured it's written off as a loss.Or the seller disputes the claim,if he does and can prove the item was delivered by the shipping company then the charge back is reversed.

That is why small sellers have been pissed,you can bash your head to mush dealing with them and they simply don't care,it's use they're service and like it or F--off so far as they are concerned.Standard policy for both Ebay and Paypal has been for years that if the total value of the auction and the shipping costs were less than $250 the seller only had to provide delivery confirmation or a tracking number that showed delivery had been made.Just one example-

http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Part-Time-Ebay/Sellers-Beware-Delivery/520191632

So far as Enco and others simply shipping a replacement for a lost or damaged item,they aren't required to do that,just encouraged out of courtesy.The only thing they are required to do is provide you with the information you need to file a claim assuming you paid for insurance.

Read the shipping/damaged goods section in any of the print catalogs and see what they say.Grizzly as an example states in they're terms to -note the damage on the shipping form the driver has you sign so -THEY MAY FILE AN INSURANCE CLAIM ON YOUR BEHALF.In other words,they don't have to,but they will out of courtesy.They also state that if you fail to note the damage it is very difficult to make a claim.

Now,you don't have to believe any of what I am trying to tell you,but I have been buying,selling,shipping and receiving for the last 20 odd years and better than half of the male members in my family are either commercial haulers or brokers.

BTW If you get a rock ding from a truck,your tailgating and that's illegal:D

gary350
09-11-2010, 09:50 AM
Okay..so you are saying that yard sales are more trouble than Ebay.

And if Ebay is too much trouble...why don't you donate the stuff to charity and take the tax deduction?

TMT

You can't donate stuff like a Fox 35 model airplane engine, a 6" bench vise I never use, a 4" drill press vise that I don't use, a spare 2" ridgid pipe cutter, wood stove, floor standing drill press, chinese made band saw, gas chain saw, 6 weed eaters, 1 leaf blower, riding lawn mower, 6 base ball bats, 3" full choke for a 12 guage shotgun, several years of Live Steam magazines, old 45 RPM records, TV antenna, 20 sheets of 8x10 window glass, 300 lbs of lead, 1 box of Botter and Brumfield 12 VDC relays about 75 relays in all, 10 rolls of door and window seal tape, 1 case of 100 rolls of black electrical tape, 8 45 degree angle cutters of a horizonal mill brand new I don't have a mill to use them on. I could make a list of stuff to sell a mile long you get the idea my shop if full stuff I don't need and will never use a lot of it is brand new. I have been selling stuff out of my shop for 10 years and I can't tell anything is missing. Those places that take donations want clothes and food for homeless people and people that can not afford to buy food and clothes.

gary350
09-11-2010, 09:53 AM
Okay..so you are saying that yard sales are more trouble than Ebay.

And if Ebay is too much trouble...why don't you donate the stuff to charity and take the tax deduction?

TMT

You can't donate stuff like, about 20 model airplane engine, a 6" bench vise I never use, a 4" drill press vise that I don't use, a spare 2" ridgid pipe cutter, wood stove, floor standing drill press, chinese made band saw, gas chain saw, 6 weed eaters, 1 leaf blower, riding lawn mower, 6 base ball bats, 3" full choke for a 12 guage shotgun, several years of Live Steam magazines, old 45 RPM records, TV antenna, 20 sheets of 8x10 window glass, 300 lbs of lead, 1 box of Botter and Brumfield 12 VDC relays about 75 relays in all, 10 rolls of door and window seal tape, 1 case of 100 rolls of black electrical tape, 8 45 degree angle cutters of a horizonal mill brand new I don't have a mill to use them on. 19 used bicycle, 35 bicycle wheels, 31 bicycle seats, 57 bicycle tubes that need to be patched, 2 used air compressors, 1 french fry cooker, 14 speakers, 1 wood router, several misc gear motors, 1 variable speed drive, 1 pile aprox enough parts and pieces to assemble 8 briggs and straton engines, 1 large box of schedule 80 hydraulic fittings, 30 cases on mason jars, 6 snow sleds, 4 gas space heaters, 6 variacs, 16 transformers, 2 cylinder heads for a chevy 350 engine, fireplace logs, about 500 lbs of zinc bars, 1 large barrel of log chains, 5 gallon bucket of misc roller bearings, 1 bucket of misc gears, 20 sections of brand new stove pipe, 300 lbs of enamel coated copper wire, 8 jet engines. I could make a list of stuff to sell a mile long you get the idea my shop is full of stuff I don't need and will never use a lot of it is brand new. I have been selling stuff out of my shop for 10 years and I can't tell anything is missing. The problem is I am a pack rat every time I sell something it makes room for new stuff to take its place. Those places that take donations want clothes and food for homeless people and people that can not afford to buy food and clothes. I do have some clothes to donate my wife ask me first thing out of bed this morning to get out some clothes to donate after breakfast. It is not a tax deduction any more because the IRS gives everyone about $9800 of what they call tax deductions so all your receipts have to add up to more than $9800 to get a deductions, if you have receipts for $10,000. then 10,000 minus 9800 = $200 tax deduction.

lazlo
09-11-2010, 09:59 AM
I'm sorry Darin, but that's simply not true. You posted the rest of that section of the Uniform Commerical Code, and none of that contradicts the main point:
And the main point of my argument is exactly what you posted,but fail to see-

Unless otherwise explicitly agreed

By clicking "confirm" when you place a bid on Ebay you are agreeing explicitly to the terms described in the sellers terms.They even warn you that you are entering into a binding legal contract.


That would be true (that the seller can specify FOB Shipping as part of the contract), except Ebay doesn't let you set your own terms. You're bound by the Ebay Terms of Service:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html


nothing in this agreement shall modify the governing provisions of California Commercial Code § 2401(2) and Uniform Commercial Code § 2-401(2)




...and if that's not clear enough, Ebay states it again in layman's terms:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-practices.html


Insurance: You can't charge a separate fee for insurance, although you still need to make sure your item arrives as described



You're not allowed to say that you're not responsible for item delivery or ensuring that the item is delivered as described. For example, we don't allow statements like "I am not responsible for the item once it's dropped in the mail."



Clear enough? This is the biggest misconception with new Ebay sellers.



Furthermore when a buyer refuses insurance he or she has assumed ALL risk...

Ebay does NOT allow the seller to require the buyer to purchase insurance -- because it contradicts the seller liability required by Federal and State commerce law.

If a seller had no liability once the package had been shipped, Amazon, Enco, Buy.com would tell you to take a flying leap when your package didn't show up. Fortunately, US law doesn't work that way (I have no idea how it works in other countries).

I gather you're Gary's camp Darin -- that you thought that once you shipped an Ebay item, you were done. You're very lucky that a buyer hasn't filed an Item Not Received claim on you. Once you get a savvy buyer, you will, and you'll be sad -- Ebay pulls the funds directly out of your bank account :)

That's why Ebay/Paypal has to have your bank account to sell on Ebay, by the way, so they can yank the funds on an Item Not Received claim (when the item isn't delivered to the buyer).

gary350
09-11-2010, 10:48 AM
That would be true (that the seller can specify FOB Shipping as part of the contract), except Ebay doesn't let you set your own terms. You're bound by the Ebay Terms of Service:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html


nothing in this agreement shall modify the governing provisions of California Commercial Code § 2401(2) and Uniform Commercial Code § 2-401(2)




...and if that's not clear enough, Ebay states it again in layman's terms:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-practices.html


Insurance: You can't charge a separate fee for insurance, although you still need to make sure your item arrives as described



You're not allowed to say that you're not responsible for item delivery or ensuring that the item is delivered as described. For example, we don't allow statements like "I am not responsible for the item once it's dropped in the mail."



Clear enough? This is the biggest misconception with new Ebay sellers.




Ebay does NOT allow the seller to require the buyer to purchase insurance -- because it contradicts the seller liability required by Federal and State commerce law.

If a seller had no liability once the package had been shipped, Amazon, Enco, Buy.com would tell you to take a flying leap when your package didn't show up. Fortunately, US law doesn't work that way (I have no idea how it works in other countries).

I gather you're Gary's camp Darin -- that you thought that once you shipped an Ebay item, you were done. You're very lucky that a buyer hasn't filed an Item Not Received claim on you. Once you get a savvy buyer, you will, and you'll be sad -- Ebay pulls the funds directly out of your bank account :)

That's why Ebay/Paypal has to have your bank account to sell on Ebay, by the way, so they can yank the funds on an Item Not Received claim (when the item isn't delivered to the buyer).

If your sending a high dollar item that needs insurance send it UPS it gets automatic insurance and automatic tracking you do not have to pay extra up to $100 after that it costs 25 cents per $100 extra. Rule of thumb if it won't fit in a flat rate postage box or envelope, if its worth more than $50, is being shipped more that 500 miles send it by UPS. If the buyer refuses to pay for insurance then give him a full refund and tell him to buy from someone else. I avoid USPS like the plague. I like UPS it is much safer. Even if you buy insurance USPS will very often refuse to pay. I refuse to get screwed so I use UPS as the shipper. Some buyers sure do have an attitude problem they seem to think they have the right to make their own rules for the sellers auction I block jerks like that from bidding on my auctions. Ebay rules say, the seller has the right to make any rules he likes as long as it complies with ebay rules and federal and state laws.

aboard_epsilon
09-11-2010, 10:49 AM
Nearly all the second hand resharpened HSS endmills in job lots of 40 and 50 have disappeared over the last 18 months........wonder if the sellers are afraid to put them on because of paypal payback etc.

I used to be able to get a job lot like that, for under £25..i was willing to take the risk ..and it paid ...sure about 8 or so were un-usable ..but i was happy.

Same with a lot of things .....i could always put things right ...i was willing to buy slightly damaged, knowing i could put it right...and get a bargain because no one else would bid...all now mostly gone

Look at the Fritz Werner milling machine i bought off there for £1....bad pics .fully disassembled even the motor was in bits.

Vises with no handles and drill holes in them..you could pick them up for a tenner ..not that many there anymore...what there is have all got BIN on them of £20 or more.

Very few items like that now ..

So a lot of the attraction has gone for me. :(

The glory days are over !!

ALL THE BEST.MARKJ

ADGO_Racing
09-11-2010, 11:16 AM
If your sending a high dollar item that needs insurance send it UPS it gets automatic insurance and automatic tracking you do not have to pay extra up to $100 after that it costs 25 cents per $100 extra. Rule of thumb if it won't fit in a flat rate postage box or envelope, if its worth more than $50, is being shipped more that 500 miles send it by UPS. If the buyer refuses to pay for insurance then give him a full refund and tell him to buy from someone else. I avoid USPS like the plague. I like UPS it is much safer. Even if you buy insurance USPS will very often refuse to pay. I refuse to get screwed so I use UPS as the shipper.

Try collecting from UPS.....a number of years ago, UPS destroyed everything shipped to me or from me. Including about $4,000.00 worth of parts to a NEW customer.

UPS tried to say it "wasn't packaged properly". Every part was wrapped individually, in its own box, and all put into one big box. A month later the UPS man dropped a box of junk on my shop floor and simply said it was "Undeliverable".

UPS told me it was packaged improperly (Their standard excuse for NOT paying), They destroyed the packaging so bad THEY had to repackage the stuff, all the original wrapping was gone, the individual boxes were gone, the original big box was gone. They sent an adjuster/inspector out to look at things, HE TOLD ME, the parts were "repairable" and that they would not pay for them! That my customer was being "unreasonable". (I suppose when you are paying $4,000.00 for NEW parts you expect a certain level of craftsmanship????? What is wrong with these people???).

After a little badgering they said they would pay for "material only" that insurance does NOT cover labor.

Long story short, it was one of those instances where I had to make a call to the attorney. He wrote a letter and faxed it. Now for the irony of the situation. I got paid the full amount of my claim, I was sent a check the day the attorney wrote a letter, it arrived overnight first AM delivery, shipped from the UPS claim office using FedEx!

I guess UPS didn't trust their own system to deliver it. If when I am buying something, there is an option, I will opt for FedEx if not I take my chances. When I ship something, I ONLY use FedEx, unless the customer specifically requests otherwise, and provides an account number. Then if/when it is destroyed, they can deal with them.

I have not yet had anything destroyed by FedEx, I know it happens, there is no possible way to ship everything they do without something going wrong. An occasional issue is one thing, but the frequency that UPS destroys things is unreal.

squirrel
09-11-2010, 11:32 AM
Try collecting from UPS.....a number of years ago, UPS destroyed everything shipped to me or from me. Including about $4,000.00 worth of parts to a NEW customer.

UPS tried to say it "wasn't packaged properly". Every part was wrapped individually, in its own box, and all put into one big box. A month later the UPS man dropped a box of junk on my shop floor and simply said it was "Undeliverable".

UPS told me it was packaged improperly (Their standard excuse for NOT paying), They destroyed the packaging so bad THEY had to repackage the stuff, all the original wrapping was gone, the individual boxes were gone, the original big box was gone. They sent an adjuster/inspector out to look at things, HE TOLD ME, the parts were "repairable" and that they would not pay for them! That my customer was being "unreasonable". (I suppose when you are paying $4,000.00 for NEW parts you expect a certain level of craftsmanship????? What is wrong with these people???).

After a little badgering they said they would pay for "material only" that insurance does NOT cover labor.

Long story short, it was one of those instances where I had to make a call to the attorney. He wrote a letter and faxed it. Now for the irony of the situation. I got paid the full amount of my claim, I was sent a check the day the attorney wrote a letter, it arrived overnight first AM delivery, shipped from the UPS claim office using FedEx!

I guess UPS didn't trust their own system to deliver it. If when I am buying something, there is an option, I will opt for FedEx if not I take my chances. When I ship something, I ONLY use FedEx, unless the customer specifically requests otherwise, and provides an account number. Then if/when it is destroyed, they can deal with them.

I have not yet had anything destroyed by FedEx, I know it happens, there is no possible way to ship everything they do without something going wrong. An occasional issue is one thing, but the frequency that UPS destroys things is unreal.

We only use double wall boxes for UPS items, this has been policy for the last several years, our damaged items are less than 2 a year. The ONLY bad thing about that is the cost. eBay buyers would cry about our handling cost when we sold everything using a no reserve auction, the 12 x 12 dblwall delivered price is around $3.75 each + InstaPak expanded foam that costs $4.50 PER POUND and it takes about a pound for the 12 x 12. Then the item sells for $15........I better just shut my big mouth while I am ahead!

lazlo
09-11-2010, 11:43 AM
Ebay rules say, the seller has the right to make any rules he likes as long as it complies with ebay rules and federal and state laws.

LOL Gary! You quote the Ebay Terms of Service where it says you're not allowed to make your own rules, and then state "Ebay rules say..." :D

Read this again, and memorize it. You'll have a lot less aggravation on Ebay ;)


http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html


nothing in this agreement shall modify the governing provisions of California Commercial Code § 2401(2) and Uniform Commercial Code § 2-401(2):


§ 2-401(2) title passes to the buyer at the time and place at which the seller completes performance with reference to the physical delivery of the goods

Insurance: You can't charge a separate fee for insurance, although you still need to make sure your item arrives as described

You're not allowed to say that you're not responsible for item delivery or ensuring that the item is delivered as described. For example, we don't allow statements like "I am not responsible for the item once it's dropped in the mail."

gary350
09-11-2010, 12:30 PM
LOL Gary! You quote the Ebay Terms of Service where it says you're not allowed to make your own rules, and then state "Ebay rules say..." :D

Read this again, and memorize it. You'll have a lot less aggravation on Ebay ;)


http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html


nothing in this agreement shall modify the governing provisions of California Commercial Code § 2401(2) and Uniform Commercial Code § 2-401(2):


§ 2-401(2) title passes to the buyer at the time and place at which the seller completes performance with reference to the physical delivery of the goods

Insurance: You can't charge a separate fee for insurance, although you still need to make sure your item arrives as described

You're not allowed to say that you're not responsible for item delivery or ensuring that the item is delivered as described. For example, we don't allow statements like "I am not responsible for the item once it's dropped in the mail."


I read that and I do it all exactly as ebay says. I rarely sell anything over $100 so the free UPS insurance and free tracking is not a problem. I describe the item accurate and to the best of my ability and I take lots of photos and I tell the buyer to ask question before they bid. If an item sells for an higher price than expected like $127 big deal it still gots shipped by UPS. Big items like a car, truck, lawn mower, bicycle is all pick up at my house pay cash when you pick it up. If buyer inspect the item at my house and change their mind no problem I will sell it again.

I sold a car on ebay the guy drove from Michigan to TN with a car trailer paid cash and was happy with the item.

I sold a pick up truck to a guy in California he looked at the truck said it is rusted more than Califorina trucks and didn't want it. Good for me I sold it again for $1000 more the second sale to a guy in Washington DC.

I sold a Cub Cadet lawn mower for $1500 to a guy from Georgia he pick it up and paid cash.

I sold a bicycle $500 cash the guy was on a return trip from Florida back to Idaho picked it up on his way home.

I sold another bicycle $500 to someone from Alabama they test drove the bike was happy paid cash loaded it in their vehicle and was gone.

I sold another bicycle $500 to a guy in Texas he test road the bike paid cash took it home and 2 weeks later he had the bike for sale on ebay for $900.

I sold a milling machine vise to a guy in Canada he picked it up on his way back home from vacation at the beach he paid cash.

I sold all my reloading equipment to 2 guys from New Mexico they came, looked at every thing and paid cash loaded it all and left.

I sold my 14 ft camp trailer to a couple from Las Vegas they looked at the trailer, inspected it very well for about an hour, paid cash and pulled it home.

I rarely have a problem with buyers on ebay. The thieves like the guy that bought the $40 item then filed complaint just to get it free and a refund too are the problem.

I sold a boat one time long ago before I learned not to take personal checks. The buyer gave me a check on a bank account that had been closed for 2 years. After doing a lot if investigation by phone, email, etc. for several months one day I drove to the guys house, hooked on to my boat and drove home. Sold the boat again.

Too_Many_Tools
09-11-2010, 01:03 PM
You can't donate stuff like a Fox 35 model airplane engine, a 6" bench vise I never use, a 4" drill press vise that I don't use, a spare 2" ridgid pipe cutter, wood stove, floor standing drill press, chinese made band saw, gas chain saw, 6 weed eaters, 1 leaf blower, riding lawn mower, 6 base ball bats, 3" full choke for a 12 guage shotgun, several years of Live Steam magazines, old 45 RPM records, TV antenna, 20 sheets of 8x10 window glass, 300 lbs of lead, 1 box of Botter and Brumfield 12 VDC relays about 75 relays in all, 10 rolls of door and window seal tape, 1 case of 100 rolls of black electrical tape, 8 45 degree angle cutters of a horizonal mill brand new I don't have a mill to use them on. I could make a list of stuff to sell a mile long you get the idea my shop if full stuff I don't need and will never use a lot of it is brand new. I have been selling stuff out of my shop for 10 years and I can't tell anything is missing. Those places that take donations want clothes and food for homeless people and people that can not afford to buy food and clothes.


Wrong...you can donate anything of value.

And believe it or not, you can just give it away if it is so much trouble to you.

Your choice.

Try offering the stuff here for free and see if you get volunteers.

psomero
09-11-2010, 01:50 PM
USPS does not have tracking numbers. They have DELIVERY CONFIRMATION numbers. They are not updated at every waypoint in a package's travel, so they are much less reliable than a real tracking number when a problem arises and you need to point the finger somewhere.

As someone who used to sell a load of stuff on both ebay and amazon, I can say that this is a very common misconception with buyers. I'd say 15-20% of buyers would email me to complain that the "tracking number" wasn't updating the status of the package. Some of these people would be very irate from the get go and were a pain in the ass to deal with.

I have always used delivery confirmation on my shipments, regardless of the limited info it provides. I had a postage scale and label printer, so I printed all of my own postage and delivery confirmation was a whopping $0.17 extra on any first class or priority mail package. It was cheap insurance against lost packages, or the occasional attempted scammer who would claim the stuff never showed up.

I also require all high dollar items to ship with signature confirmation. There is no exceptions made to this rule ever.


Ebay is dead now. It went to hell during the reign of Meg Whitman and has been in a continual downhill slide as they make it more buyer-friendly at the expense of the seller in both cash and patience. There's so many ways to get burned these days that I only sell one or two items on ebay a year now. Amazon is the way to go, but it's a whole different world and works much differently from the mechanics of sales on ebay...

wierdscience
09-11-2010, 01:51 PM
That would be true (that the seller can specify FOB Shipping as part of the contract), except Ebay doesn't let you set your own terms. You're bound by the Ebay Terms of Service:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html


nothing in this agreement shall modify the governing provisions of California Commercial Code § 2401(2) and Uniform Commercial Code § 2-401(2)



UCC code 2-401-
http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/ucc2-401.text.html

Read it,don't just assume you know what it says.A delivery contract is where the seller specifically states that he or she will get in thery're vehicle and physically delivier the item to the buy IN PERSON.

(2) Unless otherwise explicitly agreed title passes to the buyer at the time and place at which the seller completes his performance with reference to the physical delivery of the goods, despite any reservation of a security interest and even though a document of title is to be delivered at a different time or place; and in particular and despite any reservation of a security interest by the bill of lading

(a) if the contract requires or authorizes the seller to send the goods to the buyer but does not require him to deliver them at destination, title passes to the buyer at the time and place of shipment; but

(b) if the contract requires delivery at destination, title passes on tender there.




...and if that's not clear enough, Ebay states it again in layman's terms:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-practices.html


Insurance: You can't charge a separate fee for insurance, although you still need to make sure your item arrives as described



You're not allowed to say that you're not responsible for item delivery or ensuring that the item is delivered as described. For example, we don't allow statements like "I am not responsible for the item once it's dropped in the mail."

Clear enough? This is the biggest misconception with new Ebay sellers.

Ebay does NOT allow the seller to require the buyer to purchase insurance -- because it contradicts the seller liability required by Federal and State commerce law.

http://www.powersellersunite.com/post-269038.html

Shifting Insurance Costs to the Seller
As part of the Seller Responsibilities policy, eBay will prohibit sellers from offering shipping insurance as an optional fee, but it will require sellers to make sure their item arrives as described. Sellers will be able to tack the cost of shipping insurance on to the item price, or they may incorporate any insurance fees into the handling charge.

Sellers will be required to charge actual shipping cost and actual handling cost, which can include the cost of packing material and insurance, but may not include any other costs.



If a seller had no liability once the package had been shipped, Amazon, Enco, Buy.com would tell you to take a flying leap when your package didn't show up. Fortunately, US law doesn't work that way (I have no idea how it works in other countries).

Like I said already,read the terms of service the retails all have.


I gather you're Gary's camp Darin -- that you thought that once you shipped an Ebay item, you were done. You're very lucky that a buyer hasn't filed an Item Not Received claim on you. Once you get a savvy buyer, you will, and you'll be sad -- Ebay pulls the funds directly out of your bank account :)

That's why Ebay/Paypal has to have your bank account to sell on Ebay, by the way, so they can yank the funds on an Item Not Received claim (when the item isn't delivered to the buyer).

I am in Garry's camp when it comes to lying thieves not being allowed to steal from me.Just were in cornball heaven do you figure it's okay for a buyer to buy something,for me to ship it to him as described and then for him to take the item out of the box and claim it was lost in shipment?

I am well aware of Ebay and Paypal policy.I have one bank account just for Paypal,it has exactly $10.00 in it FOR THAT REASON.

Keeping the account low and the money bled off Paypal forces Paypal to resolve any issue promptly.

When I sell,the buyer gets actual shipping,insurance,delivery confirmation all in one fee per the part of the paragraph you conviently omitted.

You can bitch moan and complain about UCC this and UCC that,but ALL of my i's are dotted and my t's crossed.

Sure there are crooked sellers out there,but there are a lot more crooked buyers.At the end of the day a thief is a thief.

Deja Vu
09-11-2010, 01:57 PM
UCC code 2-401-
http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/ucc2-401.text.html

Read it,don't just assume you know what it says.A delivery contract is where the seller specifically states that he or she will get in thery're vehicle and physically delivier the item to the buy IN PERSON.

(2) Unless otherwise explicitly agreed title passes to the buyer at the time and place at which the seller completes his performance with reference to the physical delivery of the goods, despite any reservation of a security interest and even though a document of title is to be delivered at a different time or place; and in particular and despite any reservation of a security interest by the bill of lading

(a) if the contract requires or authorizes the seller to send the goods to the buyer but does not require him to deliver them at destination, title passes to the buyer at the time and place of shipment; but

(b) if the contract requires delivery at destination, title passes on tender there.





http://www.powersellersunite.com/post-269038.html

Shifting Insurance Costs to the Seller
As part of the Seller Responsibilities policy, eBay will prohibit sellers from offering shipping insurance as an optional fee, but it will require sellers to make sure their item arrives as described. Sellers will be able to tack the cost of shipping insurance on to the item price, or they may incorporate any insurance fees into the handling charge.

Sellers will be required to charge actual shipping cost and actual handling cost, which can include the cost of packing material and insurance, but may not include any other costs.




Like I said already,read the terms of service the retails all have.



I am in Garry's camp when it comes to lying thieves not being allowed to steal from me.Just were in cornball heaven do you figure it's okay for a buyer to buy something,for me to ship it to him as described and then for him to take the item out of the box and claim it was lost in shipment?

I am well aware of Ebay and Paypal policy.I have one bank account just for Paypal,it has exactly $10.00 in it FOR THAT REASON.

Keeping the account low and the money bled off Paypal forces Paypal to resolve any issue promptly.

When I sell,the buyer gets actual shipping,insurance,delivery confirmation all in one fee per the part of the paragraph you conviently omitted.

You can bitch moan and complain about UCC this and UCC that,but ALL of my i's are dotted and my t's crossed.

Sure there are crooked sellers out there,but there are a lot more crooked buyers.At the end of the day a thief is a thief.
So it's settled then.....Ebay is another great place to buy or sell with the usual risk.

Mcgyver
09-11-2010, 02:23 PM
USPS does not have tracking numbers. They have DELIVERY CONFIRMATION numbers. They are not updated at every waypoint in a package's travel, so they are much less reliable than a real tracking number ..

that's not true, at least on international items. I just had a package arrive from Florida and watched it make its journey online which each step duly noted. Depends what service you buy, but even the cheapest parcel service, International Priority I believe its call, comes with a tracking number

lazlo
09-11-2010, 02:28 PM
So it's settled then.....Ebay is another great place to buy or sell with the usual risk.

No, that's the hilarious part -- the text Darin keeps posting say exactly the same thing! The seller is responsible for delivering the item, just like any other merchant.


http://www.powersellersunite.com/post-269038.html


As part of the Seller Responsibilities policy, eBay will prohibit sellers from offering shipping insurance as an optional fee, but it will require sellers to make sure their item arrives as described.

Which, just happens to be the Ebay Terms of Service I posted above, which happens to be a carbon copy of the Uniform Commercial Code.

But more amusingly, it isn't theoretical, or conjecture on my part. I, and many others here and on PracticalMachinist, have filed Item Not Received cases with Ebay, and they instantly pull the full purchase price, including shipping, out of the Seller' bank account. That's why Ebay insists on having the Seller's bank account number.

And Darin, you can keep $10 in your account, but Ebay will lock your account until the full amount is paid, because they're required by law to do so.

This makes Shady sellers like Gary complain loudly about "Ebay Thieves", because their understanding of fairness and law is different from everyone else.

lazlo
09-11-2010, 02:38 PM
By the way, the thread Darin posted from the Ebay seller's forum is great.

Words of Wisdom for success on Ebay:

http://www.powersellersunite.com/post-269038.html#268996

"First and (in my opinion) most important rule of business:

Never make it hard for your customers to do business with you!!!"

aboard_epsilon
09-11-2010, 02:40 PM
Shifting Insurance Costs to the Seller
As part of the Seller Responsibilities policy, eBay will prohibit sellers from offering shipping insurance as an optional fee, but it will require sellers to make sure their item arrives as described. Sellers will be able to tack the cost of shipping insurance on to the item price, or they may incorporate any insurance fees into the handling charge.

Sellers will be required to charge actual shipping cost and actual handling cost, which can include the cost of packing material and insurance, but may not include any other costs.


Is this ebays way of making a profit out of any insurance cover you may decide to put on it ..

the depths they stoop to is unbelievable ..

and you got people here quoting ebays rules ..like they were the law ..
ebay think they are above any law ..they are a bit like bent mafia bouncers ..you don't comply ..you're out ..or you're not coming in.

all the best.markj

lazlo
09-11-2010, 02:45 PM
Is this ebays way of making a profit out of any insurance cover you may decide to put on it ..

the depths they stoop to is unbelievable...

You're not listening. They're preventing sellers from requiring shipping insurance, because it's illegal.


and you got people here quoting ebays rules ..like they were the law ..

Oh, my head!

Ebay's Terms of Service are an exact copy of the Uniform Commercial Code. A very few sellers believe their responsibility is over once the item has shipped, and I'm quoting both the law and Ebay's Terms of Service explaining why Ebay yanks the funds out of the Seller's account. I had one seller complain bitterly (after I filed an Item Not Received on a package that went missing) that "Ebay was playing Santa Claus with his bank account."

So if you want to know why Ebay does this, read the rules. Or you can just remain blissfully ignorant and post "Thieves on Ebay" rants on Home Shop Machinist forum when you get burned.

aboard_epsilon
09-11-2010, 02:55 PM
Sellers will be able to tack the cost of shipping insurance on to the item price, or they may incorporate any insurance fees into the handling charge



no matter how many times i read that ..it says ..if you put insurance on it ..hidden in the price ..you get less ..they get the same . they win every way ..and thats how they manipulate... so they do/..so they can ..

disgruntled sellers know this ..and its just turning the key on their back until they finally give up on ebay. ..

all the best.markj

Deja Vu
09-11-2010, 03:23 PM
no matter how many times i read that ..it says ..if you put insurance on it ..hidden in the price ..you get less ..they get the same . they win every way ..and thats how they manipulate... so they do/..so they can ..

disgruntled sellers know this ..and its just turning the key on their back until they finally give up on ebay. ..

all the best.markj

Wait a minute.... If you, the seller, insures the package, and it doesn't reach its destination or is damaged, you get reimbursed for the loss or damage.
...and the buyer paid for it in "handling and shipping costs".

squirrel
09-11-2010, 03:23 PM
Ebay is dead now. It went to hell during the reign of Meg Whitman and has been in a continual downhill slide
Meg started about a year or two after eBay was founded, its the current moron and his ain't got a lick of sense assistant A/K/A PollyAnna.

eBay IS NOT dead, yet. It has been in a continual down ward spiral. It does provide us with an extremely qualified customer list. Yes I bitch and cry about eBay, however, I cannot derive a more exact customer list than one created from actual buyers of our products. This is priceless to a growing business and worthless to the weekend seller. So for the weekend seller eBay is pretty much dead because B.S. & eBay + paypal fees exceeds profit. Our only use for eBay is building direct and dot com sales. Buyers are making additional purchases from us direct and forgoing eBay, not good for ebay but extremely good for our company.

lazlo
09-11-2010, 03:32 PM
Wait a minute.... If you, the seller, insures the package, and it doesn't reach its destination or is damaged, you get reimbursed for the loss or damage.
...and the buyer paid for it in "handling and shipping costs".

That's exactly what Ebay is suggesting that the Seller do (and what I do when I sell on Ebay): Federal Law precludes you from requiring that the buyer purchase insurance, since delivery is the seller's responsibility.

But it's perfectly legal for the seller to fold shipping insurance into the "handling fee", which is why Ebay recommends it to sellers (in that link).

aboard_epsilon
09-11-2010, 03:48 PM
Wait a minute.... If you, the seller, insures the package, and it doesn't reach its destination or is damaged, you get reimbursed for the loss or damage.
...and the buyer paid for it in "handling and shipping costs".

He metioned handling charge not shipping ..i don't know if ebay has this down as another thing they can tax ..because Ive never done it.

for someone who buys something for £10..and wants to sell it for £15........there will not be any profit after all these things are added up ....those people have disappeared

likewise ........if someone has something to auction ..and they are wishing for at least £10 for it ..knowing it was a cert...in the old days they would have put it on.......not now ..that they have all the palaver and profiteering of ebay .all those people have gone.

so, all your quality s/h.. collet chucks , drill chucks , dti's ,...are now scarce, or overpriced, because they fall into that category.
as do a lot of other things that are not on there any more .

all the best.mark

gnm109
09-11-2010, 03:54 PM
that's not true, at least on international items. I just had a package arrive from Florida and watched it make its journey online which each step duly noted. Depends what service you buy, but even the cheapest parcel service, International Priority I believe its call, comes with a tracking number


Yes, with delivery confirmation on USPS, I've gotten reports at each waystation. On the quicker deliveries, it may not report in time but on the longer ones, it seems to.

Too_Many_Tools
09-11-2010, 05:08 PM
We send all of our rejects to swap meets. Stuff that was not high enough quality for the dot com and main eBay account would go the "secret" ebay account and unloaded, that turned into a big nightmare and we have stopped it. It all goes out to flea markets and it does not come back and turns into a HIGHER value their than on eBay. It just shows the state of eBay, its pretty bad when micro dot of local buyers can find more money to spend than buyers using a "global" market place.


LOL...more likely the ignorance of rednecks is at work.

A swapmeet is the Wild West...a buyer finds the item with no access or time to research it..it is a decision on the spot..buy or walk. If they buy, you fold up your tent and disappear...and the buyer has no recourse of returing it.

Then they likely put it up on Ebay to sell.

Your own junk is competing with your own goods on Ebay..and winning. ;<)

What goes around, comes around.

TMT

gary350
09-11-2010, 05:58 PM
Is this ebays way of making a profit out of any insurance cover you may decide to put on it ..

the depths they stoop to is unbelievable ..

and you got people here quoting ebays rules ..like they were the law ..
ebay think they are above any law ..they are a bit like bent mafia bouncers ..you don't comply ..you're out ..or you're not coming in.

all the best.markj

There are 2 sets of rules on ebay. Ebay stores are allowed to charge a much higher handling fee than people that are not a store. I bought one of those Jack Lalane power juicers. After testing it the thing would not do as it claimed. The advertisement says you can put a whole apple skin and all in it and it will make juice. I have about 14 bushels of apples on my tree the apple skin stuck in the grinder part and clogged it up, then all it did was rub on the apple. There was no way to make the apple go through and make juice without pealing all the apples. That is not what I want I want what the advertisement claims so I returned it for a refund as the advertisement said I could do in 30 days. I only received a 50% refund on the juicer and no refund on the postage. After paying postage both ways and getting only 50% refund I lost about $100. I complained to paypal and was told Ebay stores are a business with higher operating cost so they are allowed to charge higher fees. If the auction page had told me the true story I would have never bought the juicer.

Ebay rules says you can include insurance, tracking, delivery confirmation, handling fee, etc, in the price of shipping so that is what I usually do. I sell an item and list shipping cost as $10. That $10 price covers it all. According to ebay rules I can do that but I am not allowed tell the buyer I am doing that. If I list all the fees so they total $10 so the buyer knows what his $10 is paying for ebay will cancel the auction. As long as I keep my mouth shut and only say posted is $10 then ebay couldn't care less what fees I charge the buyer. That is nuts.

lazlo
09-11-2010, 06:18 PM
We send all of our rejects to swap meets. Stuff that was not high enough quality for the dot com and main eBay account would go the "secret" ebay account and unloaded

Wow, that's nasty! So you had a "secret" Ebay account where you could sell crap and not worry about the negative feedback? What's wrong with you?! :mad:

gnm109
09-11-2010, 06:37 PM
Wow, that's nasty! So you had a "secret" Ebay account where you could sell crap and not worry about the negative feedback? What's wrong with you?! :mad:


Well, most of us won't bid on crap from a seller with a low feedback. With only a 12 month window, you can get a lousy rating very quickly....and lose it very quickly.

There are many many people who have more than one account on eBay. Some have multiple accounts for selling, some for buying and some for posting on the eBay community site, although that has been heavily edited and is rather tame now.

wierdscience
09-11-2010, 06:51 PM
No, that's the hilarious part -- the text Darin keeps posting say exactly the same thing! The seller is responsible for delivering the item, just like any other merchant.

And you keep ignoring what the rest of it says-

(a) if the contract requires or authorizes the seller to send the goods to the buyer but does not require him to deliver them at destination, title passes to the buyer at the time and place of shipment; but

(b) if the contract requires delivery at destination, title passes on tender there.

You need to read up on contact law because you clearly do not have any understanding of the principle involved.


And Darin, you can keep $10 in your account, but Ebay will lock your account until the full amount is paid, because they're required by law to do so.
.

No they won't,you get a phone call or an e-mail same day usually from Paypal first,been through that on a business account.Consideration is given to your account activity,if your an ocassional seller with marginal feedback then yes they probably will lock your account(big deal)if you have been selling for 10 years and completed a couple thousand sales with perfect feedback,then no they won't lock your account until they talk to you first.Sellers,especially good ones do have rights.

lazlo
09-11-2010, 06:56 PM
And you keep ignoring what the rest of it says-

I'm not ignoring the rest of that paragraph Darin, it just doesn't apply to Ebay. Yes, the Uniform Commercial Code says that the buyer and seller can negotiate specific terms of the sale. But Ebay specifically says that the seller can NOT negotiate their own terms on Ebay transactions:


http://www.powersellersunite.com/post-269038.html


As part of the Seller Responsibilities policy, eBay will prohibit sellers from offering shipping insurance as an optional fee, but it will require sellers to make sure their item arrives as described.



You need to read up on contact law because you clearly do not have any understanding of the principle involved.

You need to call Ebay customer service Darin, so they can explain the exact same rules that I've explained repeatedly:

1-888-749-3229

You're being stubborn -- you know that the seller is responsible for delivering the item to the buyer, and that Ebay will yank the funds out of your bank account if you ship a package which goes missing.

Which is why there are threads from uninformed sellers about "Thieves on Ebay"

squirrel
09-11-2010, 07:25 PM
LOL...more likely the ignorance of rednecks is at work.

A swapmeet is the Wild West...a buyer finds the item with no access or time to research it..it is a decision on the spot..buy or walk.


TMT

Out in this part of the country all the eBay'rs have blackberry's and Iphones with wireless internet. They walk up to the table, then look at it, walk over by a tree or corner and start thumbing it, then they come back and act like they really know what a Dapra way scraper is used for and how to use it.

wierdscience
09-11-2010, 07:32 PM
That's exactly what Ebay is suggesting that the Seller do (and what I do when I sell on Ebay): Federal Law precludes you from requiring that the buyer purchase insurance, since delivery is the seller's responsibility.

But it's perfectly legal for the seller to fold shipping insurance into the "handling fee", which is why Ebay recommends it to sellers (in that link).

Uh,no your wrong on both counts.

First,the UCC is not Federal law,from Business.gov-

About the UCC
The Uniform Commercial Code is a comprehensive set of laws governing commercial transactions between U.S. states and territories. These transactions include borrowing money, leases, contracts, and the sale of goods. The UCC is not a federal law, but a product of the National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws and the American Law Institute, private organizations that recommend the adopting of the UCC by state governments. State legislatures may either adopt the UCC verbatim or may modify to meet the state's needs. Once a state's legislature adopts and enacts the UCC it becomes a state law and is codified in the state's statutes. All 50 states and territories have enacted some version of the UCC. -

Second that is not what Ebay is suggesting.They want the seller to include the cost of insurance,handling and packaging in either the cost of the item or in the shipping cost and NOT LIST IT AS A SEPERATE FEE.It makes it easier for the buyer to determine what his exact cost for the item will be.You know making it easier for the buyer to do business with them:)

lazlo
09-11-2010, 07:41 PM
Second that is not what Ebay is suggesting.They want the seller to include the cost of insurance,handling and packaging in either the cost of the item or in the shipping cost and NOT LIST IT AS A SEPERATE FEE.

You're side-stepping the issue -- did Evan grab your keyboard? :)

The issue is that the seller is responsible for delivering the item to the buyer. Full-stop.


http://www.powersellersunite.com/post-269038.html


As part of the Seller Responsibilities policy, eBay ... requires sellers to make sure their item arrives as described.

Do yourself a favor and call Ebay customer service. Or call your credit card company and tell them you're a merchant, and ask them who's responsible if the package goes missing.

wierdscience
09-11-2010, 08:00 PM
I'm not ignoring the rest of that paragraph Darin, it just doesn't apply to Ebay. Yes, the Uniform Commercial Code says that the buyer and seller can negotiate specific terms of the sale. But Ebay specifically says that the seller can NOT negotiate their own terms on Ebay transactions:

Ebay is subject to the same rules as any other auctioneer,voice,paper or internet.They're only purpose it to facilitate the transaction between buyer and seller,put them together as it were.

The shipping terms fall into three basic contract types,

Local pickup,seller must facilitate in the buyer or his represenative in obtaining the buyer's property.Title transfers at the moment the property is removed.

Shipment contract,the seller ships the property to the buyer via a third party carrier,title transfers at the moment the shipper recieves the property being shipped.The title passes first to the shipper and then to the buyer once the buyer takes delivery from the shipper.

F.O.B. contract (Free On Board)The same as a shipment contract,but title may pass either at point of delivery which can be either the buyers adress or the shippers freight terminal which ever the contract stipulates.

A Delivery contract would be very rare on Ebay,a Delivery contract is where title changes to the buyer the moment the seller makes delivery at the buyers physical adress in person.In other words the seller maintains a liftgate service and delivers they're own product.







You need to call Ebay customer service Darin, so they can explain the exact same rules that I've explained repeatedly:

1-888-749-3229

You're being stubborn -- you know that the seller is responsible for delivering the item to the buyer, and that Ebay will yank the funds out of your bank account if you ship a package which goes missing.

Which is why there are threads from uninformed sellers about "Thieves on Ebay"

Sure they will quote Ebay's version of the UCC which isn't correct.

The seller is only responsible for delivering the item if it is a delivery contract.Never seen a delivery contract on Ebay,ever.

You keep completely ignoring provisions A&B in the very UCC chapter both you and Ebay say is gospel so here it is again-

(a) if the contract requires or authorizes the seller to send the goods to the buyer but does not require him to deliver them at destination, title passes to the buyer at the time and place of shipment; but

(b) if the contract requires delivery at destination, title passes on tender there.

B- means if you physically,in person deliver the item to his door,that's it.

Ebay is out contradicting the very code it claims is God.

You still never answered my other question-

If Ebay and buyers are covered by this invisible force field as you claim,then why do both Ebay and Paypal offer Buyer Protection?

"Oh,your protected alright,but you really need this buyer protection too":rolleyes:

lazlo
09-11-2010, 08:10 PM
Shipment contract,the seller ships the property to the buyer via a third party carrier,title transfers at the moment the shipper recieves the property being shipped.

You really need to call Ebay Customer Service Darin. You're in for a shock when Ebay pulls the purchase price plus shipping out of your bank account (like they did to Gary350) when a package goes missing.

But I'm done with this thread. You're not going to be convinced until you get bitten, and then you'll post another "Ebay Thieves" thread :)

For any other buyer's on Ebay who didn't receive an item you purchased on Ebay (or any other merchant), you're not responsible for the transaction, and a quick call to Ebay customer service (or your credit card company) will immediately refund the entire purchase price plus shipping fees: 1-888-749-3229

Or you can file an Item Not Received claim on Ebay, which takes about a day to process, but you'll still get your money back:

http://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ContactUsNextGen&Query=Resolve%20a%20Problem&Domain=Help&Fr

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/ItemNotReceived.png

wierdscience
09-11-2010, 08:15 PM
Do yourself a favor and call Ebay customer service. Or call your credit card company and tell them you're a merchant, and ask them who's responsible if the package goes missing.

I asked our credit card service at work that very question last spring,the short sweet answer was "whoever has title at the time the item was lost/damaged"

Remember possession?It's still 9/10ths of the law,once you ship an item you no longer have possession it and title have transferred to the shipper.The shipper is responsible to deliver the item.Once it's delivered the title and possession transfers to the buyer from the shipper.

lazlo
09-11-2010, 08:28 PM
I asked our credit card service at work that very question last spring,the short sweet answer was "whoever has title at the time the item was lost/damaged".

She's absolutely right!


§ 2-401(2) title passes to the buyer at the time and place at which the seller completes performance with reference to the physical delivery of the goods

wierdscience
09-11-2010, 08:35 PM
She's absolutely right!


§ 2-401(2) title passes to the buyer at the time and place at which the seller completes performance with reference to the physical delivery of the goods


AAAAAAAANNNNDDDDDD!

(a) if the contract requires or authorizes the seller to send the goods to the buyer but does not require him to deliver them at destination, title passes to the buyer at the time and place of shipment; but

(b) if the contract requires delivery at destination, title passes on tender there.

lazlo
09-11-2010, 08:42 PM
AAAAAAAANNNNDDDDDD!

(a) if the contract requires or authorizes the seller to send the goods to the buyer but does not require him to deliver them at destination, title passes to the buyer at the time and place of shipment;.

Right, if the seller negotiates a custom contract with the buyer, the buyer can waive the shipper's liability for delivery.
Fortunately, Ebay doesn't allow you to set your own terms on Ebay auctions. :rolleyes:

I tell you what Darin, want to do a real world study on this?

Tell me your seller ID, and put up a Buy It Now auction for some expensive item. Ship me an empty box by any carrier you wish. I'm serious.
I'll have the funds charged back to my credit car 15 minutes after receiving the box.

wierdscience
09-11-2010, 09:12 PM
Right, if the seller negotiates a custom contract with the buyer, the buyer can waive the shipper's liability for delivery.
Fortunately, Ebay doesn't allow you to set your own terms on Ebay auctions. :rolleyes:

I tell you what Darin, want to do a real world study on this?

Tell me your seller ID, and put up a Buy It Now auction for some expensive item. Ship me an empty box by any carrier you wish. I'm serious.
I'll have the funds charged back to my credit car 15 minutes after receiving the box.

Ya,and then 15 minutes later we both get a knock on the door from the sheriff's dept for credit card fraud:D Actually I would challenge it and unless you can provide positive proof that I didn't ship it guess what happens then.

A possible investigation.I had a customer claim he received an empty box from me.Problem was the UPS receipt gave the weight as 29lbs,since air isn't that heavy it proved the box was full when it left.VISA credited my account after I provided them with the receipt for the shipping and insurance.

For the last time,Ebay cannot say they abide by the UCC code and then at that same time violate it.They do not get to pick and choose which sections of the code applies to them.The only way they could is if they have an exception to the UCC code in the state of California.If they do then it will only apply to California and not another state.

Now,if what you say is true about Ebay,and this is indeed they're new policy,then it is no wonder why sellers are leaving in droves.

And still I ask why do they offer Buyer protection if the buyer is already supposedly protected?

The simple answer is they are being deceptive about the assumption of risk attached to they're product.They don't want to let the buyer know that like every other outlet buying there involves risk.Instead thy are peddling a false sense of security and leaving the mess to be cleanup by someone else namely the sellers,CC and shippers.

mike4
09-11-2010, 10:15 PM
eBay has stuff that is hard to find and which would be cheaper than hunting around for it. If you don't like it, don't use it and therefore you have no reason to complain.

As far as I'm concerned, eBay has become a public utility.

I buy items from Ebay that either arent available locally or I want one for a job ,rather than buying a full set which will never get used.

Also if you spend most of you time working ,repairing other peoples equipment then its also hard to chase up tools needed for a job on the weekend or late at night.