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View Full Version : OT: Ford must be stoped.



Black_Moons
09-10-2010, 03:50 PM
Gez! Here I am, joking with my friend about how car manufacturers make you buy these weird custom tools when a normal tool could of just as easily done the job as theres allready a thousand parts that use normal tools and do the exact same job (like fuel couplers), And how those tools are gonna only be good for 3 years of models before they change it.. then I started talking about 'bent' wrenchs and how if I ever had to use one, I knew I must be doing something wrong, like working on a car.. I googled some and this is what came up:
http://www.etoolcart.com/ProductImages/otc/OTC6087.jpg
Now, how much would you think a custom bent $2 chinese wrench costs? Maybe $10? $20? Nah
Act now and you get our low low price, two wrenchs for only $122.13!
the kicker? "Services 1996-1999 GM full-size 2- and 4-wheel drive trucks, vans, and Suburbans with 6.5L diesel engine."
Yes thats right, $60 each wrenchs that only are for *3* bloody years of models! Just to reach some stupid bolts that should of been easily accessable with a normal wrench in the first place if it was designed correctly.

(Of course, heaven forbid you stop comming out with totaly new/diffrent models year and actualy FIX the things that where broken with last years model)

http://www.etoolcart.com/gm-injection-pump-wrench-set-otc6087.aspx
Yea.. custom wrenchs just to access the fuel injection pump. Nice eh?
Oh, and all 4 ends of the wrenchs are all 15mm, You apparently need 3 totaly diffrent wrench profiles just to get at them.. and I bet you don't have more then a few degrees of swing once you do. Im amazed they did'nt find a way to make a 4th funky profile required, but then I guess the fuel pump is only held on by 3 bolts.

<edit> Opps, Just realise thats a GM wrench not ford. Oh well, they are all just as bad.

ulav8r
09-10-2010, 04:17 PM
Did you mean stopped or stupid????????????????????????????????:D :D

fredwillis
09-10-2010, 04:20 PM
I dont work on modern cars or trucks like that but I do know ford has been real bad about that 20+ years ago so it seems they have made it worse. I will never own a ford, Once My friend took me for a ride in his new mustang and I pulled the flimsy door handle right off the car before we went anywhere.
Friends dont let Friends buy Fords.

MuellerNick
09-10-2010, 04:44 PM
Relax! Even the Beetle (30 years back) "required" a bent key for the starter to remove. In fact, a normal key did almost the same job.
If all fails, I grab in a box of surplus keys and reach for the O/A torch ...


Nick

fredwillis
09-10-2010, 04:53 PM
Relax! Even the Beetle (30 years back) "required" a bent key for the starter to remove. In fact, a normal key did almost the same job.
If all fails, I grab in a box of surplus keys and reach for the O/A torch ...


Nick

What made the old BUG a fine rig is a few strong boys could pick it up and kick a block of firewood under it as a jack stand. it was easy to work on.

MuellerNick
09-10-2010, 05:04 PM
a few strong boys could pick it up and kick a block of firewood under it as a jack stand.

And an extra beer crate to remove the engine (beer afterwards).

That only reminds me, that I once saw a VW-bus lose this engine while driving.
**BANG**
I won't forget the stupid looks when the three left their bus to check why it doesn't go anymore. They must have forgotten all 4 screws. :D


Nick

wierdscience
09-10-2010, 06:34 PM
Yep,you need a special socket to change the oil filter on a Mini-cooper,just a regular socket chopped down in the lathe,done about 20 so far.

Benz had some oil filters stuck in wicked places that required wrences with spirals twisted in the shanks.

What would be nice on pickups is if they all had tilt front caps like semis do.

vpt
09-10-2010, 06:37 PM
Fords older injection pump had hardish to work with nuts as well. I got a 9/16" wrench and had to grind down the box end so it would fit and work. I have a special drawer in my tool box for all those what look like wrecked to anyone else wrenches.

There is always a way to get pretty much anything done with normal tools.

fixerdave
09-10-2010, 08:20 PM
.. That only reminds me, that I once saw a VW-bus lose this engine while driving.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_SeMaLYX07Ko/SCTD8Rq_9YI/AAAAAAAAAlM/71aiK9Yy4uM/s800/CheckEngine.gif

Or not... sorry, first thing that popped into mind :)

David...

AD5MB
09-10-2010, 08:38 PM
some of us just can't sit upright in anything other than a Ford. every other car is designed by 5'8 people with an attitude

I can change the 4 plugs on the left of my GMC motorhome in an hour.
right front: half an hour
second and third plug on the right: an hour each
last plug on the right will be the original when the truck is scrapped

lazlo
09-10-2010, 08:39 PM
Send me the wrenches and I'll forge them for you. Take about 10 minutes at most.

clutch
09-10-2010, 08:41 PM
And an extra beer crate to remove the engine (beer afterwards).

That only reminds me, that I once saw a VW-bus lose this engine while driving.
**BANG**
I won't forget the stupid looks when the three left their bus to check why it doesn't go anymore. They must have forgotten all 4 screws. :D

Nick

You started it so now you have to read my Volkswagen story.

Many years ago when I was in the US Marines, I met a guy called Sidney. I'll leave his last name out of this. We both had been on leave for a long time and were running out of money when we showed up at Cherry Point, NC.

Now we *should* have been paid when we got there but the freaking admin types said we needed to go to our next duty station to get paid.

Anyway, we stood together and said we are not moving since we don't have gas money and some puke admin clerk paid one of us an advance on what we were owed. That was enough for me to loan Sidney enough to fuel his veedub and me my station wagon.

The plan was we would both head to Beaufort, SC and if his car died, I'd pack his stuff into my station wagon and we would carry on, and if my car died, well, I'd have a ride, his car was full.

Along the way, we stopped for gas and he disappeared with the station attendant for a bit. After that he announced we were covered as far as money and he paid me back. How? well he had a kilo of mary jane in his car. The guy was from Oregon after all.

Well months later I run into him and he is having car troubles. He says his veedub will only do 47 mph and it takes forever to get there. Would I look at his car?

Okay, I will. VW, simple car, 4 cylinder air cooled opposed engine. First check, pull spark plug wires while idling. Check for dead cylinder. Pull one, then another, then another, no change in idle. Obviously it stopped when I pulled #4.

Start back up with wires back on. Pull #4, it dies instantly.

You gotta be kidding me. How is this thing running on one cylinder?

Pull the bails on the valve covers, I get hit in the face with push rods. A majority of his pushrods were not connected to the rocker arms which explained how it was drivable on one cylinder.

Honest, that is my story.


Clutch

Too_Many_Tools
09-10-2010, 09:47 PM
Gez! Here I am, joking with my friend about how car manufacturers make you buy these weird custom tools when a normal tool could of just as easily done the job as theres allready a thousand parts that use normal tools and do the exact same job (like fuel couplers), And how those tools are gonna only be good for 3 years of models before they change it.. then I started talking about 'bent' wrenchs and how if I ever had to use one, I knew I must be doing something wrong, like working on a car.. I googled some and this is what came up:
http://www.etoolcart.com/ProductImages/otc/OTC6087.jpg
Now, how much would you think a custom bent $2 chinese wrench costs? Maybe $10? $20? Nah
Act now and you get our low low price, two wrenchs for only $122.13!
the kicker? "Services 1996-1999 GM full-size 2- and 4-wheel drive trucks, vans, and Suburbans with 6.5L diesel engine."
Yes thats right, $60 each wrenchs that only are for *3* bloody years of models! Just to reach some stupid bolts that should of been easily accessable with a normal wrench in the first place if it was designed correctly.

(Of course, heaven forbid you stop comming out with totaly new/diffrent models year and actualy FIX the things that where broken with last years model)

http://www.etoolcart.com/gm-injection-pump-wrench-set-otc6087.aspx
Yea.. custom wrenchs just to access the fuel injection pump. Nice eh?
Oh, and all 4 ends of the wrenchs are all 15mm, You apparently need 3 totaly diffrent wrench profiles just to get at them.. and I bet you don't have more then a few degrees of swing once you do. Im amazed they did'nt find a way to make a 4th funky profile required, but then I guess the fuel pump is only held on by 3 bolts.

<edit> Opps, Just realise thats a GM wrench not ford. Oh well, they are all just as bad.


This kind of crap would stop if consumers shopped for cars based on how much it costs to repair them.

The more difficult it is to work on a car, the more the cost of tools, parts and time...and the higher the cost to the consumer.

In the past when I have shopped for a vehicle I get estimates for repairs on each vehicle I am interested in...the differences can be shocking.

I also get insurance estimates for them before the sale..again the differences can be crazy.

And when I am ready to buy, I have the salesman change the tire of the vehicle in question...something as simple as that can tell you how good or bad the design is.

TMT

J Tiers
09-10-2010, 09:58 PM
I suppose "stoping" Ford would work OK, so long as you filled in the shaft afterward..........

But, as you point out, those are GM.......

Not to Worry........ I drive an S10. GM decided that all their S10 customers would have to buy a "Colorado" next time. My nephew bought one, and hates it. From what I know of it, I hate it too...

So next time, I will have to buy a Ranger...... much as I hate the thought of buying one of those &^%$#! Fords.

Of course, by that time, You'll probably need a permit to buy anything but a chinese-made "egg car".

Your Old Dog
09-10-2010, 10:39 PM
I might be able to help you. That's how mine look when I'm done working on my Chevy? :D

Rookie machinist
09-10-2010, 11:28 PM
How would companies like Snap-On and Kent Moore stay in business if the new cars did not need new fangled tools on each redesign. Spending most my life as a tech I probably have $5k in one off sockets and wrenches. Nothing more frustrating to have to buy a special tool to only use it once.

A.K. Boomer
09-11-2010, 04:54 AM
I have ran into some tight situations when repairing vehicles, I keep a few duplicates of cheap buck apiece thrift store wrenches in the popular sizes --- all that separates me from my wildest wrench design fantasies is my propane torch:D

Carld
09-11-2010, 09:33 AM
The only ones FORCED to buy the special tools are the dealers. The factory makes them buy all the special tools if they want to keep the dealership. A mechanic working there can use the company tool or make his own and a car owner can buy a factory tool or make his own.

Special tools have been around since manufacturing began and it will be here when the world ends. Learn to live with it.

gbritnell
09-11-2010, 09:44 AM
Yeah, I'll bet Toyotas and Hondas just fall together!!
gbritnell

Circlip
09-11-2010, 10:19 AM
Don't need any speshul spanners once the engine is out??

Regards Ian

Highpower
09-11-2010, 11:33 AM
The only ones FORCED to buy the special tools are the dealers. The factory makes them buy all the special tools if they want to keep the dealership. A mechanic working there can use the company tool.....
Going to have to respectfully disagree with that statement.
Why???

After having worked in several dealerships over the years, I can say with great confidence that all the factory special tools in the dealership are TRASHED! A hack working on flat rate doesn't give a rat's petard about taking care of tools that he (or she) doesn't have to pay for. A hack will only do one of two things with a factory tool. Destroy it, or steal it to use at home. :mad:

A mechanic has to buy (or make) their own special tools in order to have a functional tool available to use. I have drawers full of factory tools (with receipts BTW...) that will never be used again. :(

But I digress..... ;)

vpt
09-11-2010, 11:49 AM
Yeah, I'll bet Toyotas and Hondas just fall together!!
gbritnell



Most hondas can be disassembled and reassembled with just a few screw drivers, 10mm, 12mm, 14mm, 17mm sockets, a few extensions, and a ratchet.

Honda is very good about using the same size bolts for everything unlike the dodge omni that I am replacing a motor in for a customer right now. Half of my tool box is out on the cart for that pile.

Alistair Hosie
09-11-2010, 01:01 PM
Well I am surprised you have not learned the American way.Order them at Sears use them at the weekend then return them for a full refund:D That's what the guy in Sears told me was common practice.Alistair

GKman
09-11-2010, 08:36 PM
some of us just can't sit upright in anything other than a Ford. every other car is designed by 5'8 people with an attitude

I can change the 4 plugs on the left of my GMC motorhome in an hour.
right front: half an hour
second and third plug on the right: an hour each
last plug on the right will be the original when the truck is scrapped

If you've never used a hole saw, tin snips or an O/A torch to change spark plugs or remove bell housing bolts, you're not part of the solution.:p

kendall
09-11-2010, 09:21 PM
If you've never used a hole saw, tin snips or an O/A torch to change spark plugs or remove bell housing bolts, you're not part of the solution.:p

I've done it! My old mustang, put a 351 windsor in it that I set back 6 inches for weight transfer. Built a new firewall/hump for it. Where the trans bolts were I used a hole saw and made access holes with covers.

Was down south a long while ago driving my bronco 2, in-tank fuel pump went out on a holiday weekend maybe 20 miles after filling the tank.Called around and managed to find a pump, but anyone who could install it wouldn't be able to get to it for 2-3 days at best. Ended up cutting an access above the pump and changed it on the side of the freeway. Got home, cut out a section of floor from a junkyard truck and cleaned it to to make a good hatch for it.

Same B2, I had an access cut in for bleeding the clutch, the bleeder is behind the bell, on top of the trans, which sits in a tight tunnel. You need a helper, a long J shaped wrench or three elbows to get it from below. Cut the access so all I needed to do was roll back the carpet, take the screws out of the cover and the bleeder was right there where I could get it from the driver's seat.
Something about that style of clutch, If it's cooled down and sitting when the weather goes from warm to cold, or reverse, the clutch slave leaks, so got to use the access about 4 times a year

wierdscience
09-11-2010, 09:43 PM
Heh heres a tight engine compartment-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgHixX37lb0&feature=related

Ya,it's an animal too-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gastk7-eJY&feature=related

Think this might be my next project:)

mike4
09-11-2010, 09:56 PM
If you've never used a hole saw, tin snips or an O/A torch to change spark plugs or remove bell housing bolts, you're not part of the solution.:p

Or can bend the firewall away from the offending bolt in the top of the transmission to gain access ,after making a "special service tool" from a cheap socket with a cutoff ring spanner welded on to it.

Falcon67
09-12-2010, 11:47 AM
If the OP is implying that custom expensive service tools are some new idea, I suggest you look through the old (back to 1930s even) Motor manuals. OTC makes a living suppling tools that the mfgs create to service vehicles. Not sure why you single out Ford - they all do it. If you are a professional mechanic and you need to service the vehicles, you buy the tools. Cost of doing business. If you are a home user and you feel like it, you hack a tool. I have several tools from OTC. FWIW I've owned both Ford and GM vehicles and you'll never sell me another GM POS ever. My Ford stock came back on it's own, my tax money helped your GM stock. I want my money back. :p

Thruthefence
09-12-2010, 12:38 PM
You guys need to do a little work on aircraft, if you want to see some "proprietary tooling" Gouging.

Oil filter housing removal tool tool for a Pratt & Whitney Canada PW500 Turbofan? $600.00!

A harbor freight slide hammer, a 1/4-28 bolt, & five minutes on the lathe, and you've got it.

Pete F
09-12-2010, 01:04 PM
Don't need any speshul spanners once the engine is out??

My brother's mustang (1970 Mach 1) required an engine pull to change the spark plugs. Not sure if that was because of a lack of a special tool or not, though.

-Pete

kendall
09-12-2010, 05:31 PM
Heh heres a tight engine compartment-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgHixX37lb0&feature=related

Ya,it's an animal too-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gastk7-eJY&feature=related

Think this might be my next project:)

Nice, but he's running line locks so he can lock the front brakes.
Pretty much anything can do a burn out in those conditions, I do like the work he did putting that engine in though.

Willy
09-12-2010, 06:41 PM
Heh heres a tight engine compartment-.....
.........Think this might be my next project:)

Ya know I've seen several Rangers with BT4 Cummins engines but this is the first one I've seen with the six.
A very professional conversion, I like that little puppy a lot! Sombody put some serious effort into the project.
I've got an older first gen Dodge with warmed over 12V Cummins in it that regularly eats new Powerstrokes and Duramaxs, I can only imagine how that little Ranger goes.:)

In all fairness it is surprisingly roomy and uncluttered under the hood, even with the A/C. I'd much rather work on it than a new full size Ford with a Powerstroke under the hood from the factory.

Willy
09-12-2010, 06:55 PM
As far as specialized tools go, that's pretty well standard in not only the automotive industry but in anything that can be serviced.
Look in any good service manual, doesn't matter what it's for, and it will usually list the specialized tools required to properly service the particular piece of equipment one is working on.

Hey that's why I have $80,000 dollars worth of tools...so I don't have to buy $20,000 worth of use only once or twice tools.:rolleyes:
Just make em' as you need em'.

Guido
09-12-2010, 08:15 PM
Willy---------------------------I fer one would like to see your 12V Cummins installation. Pictures, please.

--G

gary350
09-12-2010, 10:58 PM
The auto makers have all come up with SCAMS to make themself money. The Chevy and GMV SUVs all have a special 17 point spline bolt on the power steering pump. If the sensor on the back of the power steering pump goes bad you can not buy a sensor because it is called a proprietary part sold only by dealers for $375.00 each. An experienced auto mechanic that works for the dealer will tell you if you could get your hands on that special 17 point spline wrench you could remove the sensor, take it apart, clean it out, put it back together and it will work as good as new. Dealers will not tell you that because they want to charge you $300.00 labor to put the new $375.00 part on your vehicle. I told them to stick that special wrench you know where. I hammered some soft lead on the spline bolt then used the lead pattern to broach a wrench in the mill, cleaned the sensor with carburetor cleaner and now the sensor works good as new. That was 7 years ago drove the vehicle 6 more years sold it 6 months ago.

You could make big money if you could get your hands on some of those special tools, duplicate them and sell them on ebay at half the dealer price.

Anyone replaced a fuel pump lately. You will be lucky to find one for less than $400.00. Buy a $60 generic fuel pump and splice it into the fuel line it works great.

Willy
09-12-2010, 11:12 PM
Guido, sorry not my installation.
I bought it in new '89, still has the original paint.
I've done some serious tuning to the fuel system.

About two years ago I did a major re freshening of the 727 auto to handle the increased torque that the Cummins was starting to produce, 410 hp 735 ft. lbs. torque.The reason I pulled the transmission was because I was in the process of replacing the third flex plate that I have torn the center out of. I finally found a heavy duty one that can handle the torque.

The stock power figures that it came with was 160 hp and 400 ft.lbs. of torque. So I wasnít surprised about the flex plate issue.
Itís basically just the wifeís summer hot rod as I have another truck I use for work.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j31/250willy/00300019c.jpg

boslab
09-13-2010, 12:46 AM
if you think fords bad you really need to see the dealer service tool pack for Audi, you would need a seperate garage to keep them in, you cant even change the timing belt without a load of wierd gadjets and removing the front of the car to 'the service position', plus fasteners, torx, star both male and female, hybrid allen thingys, i wouldent be suprised if there were pentagonal nuts in there.
i think its an arrangement to stop anyone but main dealers working on cars, must be illegal i'm sure
mark

kendall
09-13-2010, 12:46 AM
The reason I pulled the transmission was because I was in the process of replacing the third flex plate that I have torn the center out of. I finally found a heavy duty one that can handle the torque.


Friend of mine did that on a 727, Charlies 69 road runner (383 magnum) we were out playing, and heard a nasty crunch, then some clicking, stopped, shut down and looked things over, couldn't find anything wrong and the car sounded fine and drove perfectly as long as you eased into the gas, so since we weren't sure what was up we took it home and started checking things out. Found the flex plate was (now) two piece, and the edges would lock together as long as you just rolled into the gas. Same car ripped the centers out of a set of brand new keystone classic rims.
The body fell apart on that car too, from a combination of Michigan weather and being beat on. Pulled motor, trans, and rear end and put them in a 1970 charger.
I guess you could call it a 'tribute' but for several years after that if you found a Dodge or Ford that was halfway respectable, the driver would say they had the engine from that road runner, or my mustang.