PDA

View Full Version : The new South Bend 10k



S_J_H
09-13-2010, 12:33 PM
Have you guys seen this yet?-
http://images.southbendlathe.com/productphotos/lathes/10K-Lathe/sb1002-catalog-a.jpg

More pics and info-
http://southbendlathe.com/lathes/10K-Lathe.aspx

Steve

x39
09-13-2010, 12:37 PM
It certainly is a fine looking piece of equipment, but I shudder to think what one costs.

S_J_H
09-13-2010, 12:51 PM
I think it will be priced around $5K. That price puts it in the 14x40 class of the typical Asian made lathe.

I think they will sell a lot of them at first. Long term I am not so sure.

Sure does look nice though.

Steve

Hal
09-13-2010, 12:52 PM
Over on the PM's South Bend site PapaGrizzley quoted $4,999.00 .
The AMERICAN made base is extra. They are the same Co. that made the original bases for South bend.
He also posted another picture of the belt drive system and a few specs of the machine.

Hal

Waterlogged
09-13-2010, 12:58 PM
You can see the full specs and pictures in the new South Bend pdf catalog on their website.

http://images.southbendlathe.com/catalog/SouthBendCatalog.pdf

Evan
09-13-2010, 12:59 PM
If it works as well as it looks that will be a winner. I would say that is a very fine job of maintaining the eye appeal of the originals. Now all I need is a spare 5K to spend... :rolleyes:

I see that the swing over the carriage is actually 11.2 inches. Nice.

Too_Many_Tools
09-13-2010, 01:09 PM
I wish they the best.

What improvements have they made over the old design?

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-13-2010, 01:10 PM
Over on the PM's South Bend site PapaGrizzley quoted $4,999.00 .
The AMERICAN made base is extra. They are the same Co. that made the original bases for South bend.
He also posted another picture of the belt drive system and a few specs of the machine.

Hal

Is the entire machine of American origin or just the parts they want to tell u about that are?

TMT

rockrat
09-13-2010, 01:17 PM
Well, it will be interesting to see how it goes for the big green bear. I hope they do well.

I did look through the pdf of the South Bend catalog (http://images.southbendlathe.com/catalog/SouthBendCatalog.pdf)

Two thoughts,

They are making (page 36) South Bend collets. I am curious of the overall performance. I would guess that they are better than the bottom of the bucket import stuff. And will ebay users now state "the original" or something similar on the South Bend Collets of the past?

Also, I cant imagine what the cast workbench legs will cost (page 41) but it would be nice to have a set of them. I would bet that they can make a table solid.

rock~

lynnl
09-13-2010, 01:24 PM
I see that the swing over the carriage is actually 11.2 inches. Nice.

Where do you get that? I'm seeing "swing over bed" as 10.37", over the carriage it'd be considerably less. (ref: link by Waterlogged)

(added)
Oh, I think you were looking at the 13 X 40" tool room lathe, Model SB1051. The specs for it do show 11.02 swing over saddle.

Mcruff
09-13-2010, 01:27 PM
Is the entire machine of American origin or just the parts they want to tell u about that are?

TMT
The stand is American made the rest of the machine is made in Taiwan by the same people that made the South Bend Turnado's. If the machien was totally American made I would say the machine would be roughly twice the price. He was adament about keeping the price down to where hobbiest could actually afford it.
As far as improvements, the machine has oilers everywhere as apposed to the original having virtually none. A D1-3 camlock spindle is standard, no threaded chucks. Tapered spindle bearings instead of sleeve bearings. The bed is hardened and ground, the drive sysytem is a 1hp versus 1/2hp original. The tailstock quill is hardened and ground also with 3.375" travel versus the original soft one with only 2 .062" travel. No back gear but a double serpentine drive system that gives 8 speeds from 65rpm-1200rpm. It also has a metric and imperial gear box standard. It also has stiffer more robust bed than the original 10K and weighs more. All in all it should be a decent lathe!! I am waiting to see what the new Heavy 10 will look like then I might buy one of the machines to replace my old South Bend 9" machine.

MichaelP
09-13-2010, 01:44 PM
I would say that is a very fine job of maintaining the eye appeal of the originals. This is one thing chinese learned to do well. ;)

David S Newman
09-13-2010, 01:48 PM
I find the picture of the new Southbend quite nostalgic. I had a Smart and Brown , Sabel over 40 years ago which if I remember rightly were made under licence here in th UK from Southbend. It's hardly changed in all these years the carriage and tailstock look identical, don't know about the headstock looks very similar mine ran in cast iron bearings with a hardened steel mandrel. I had this lathe for years never once had to adjust the bearings.
Happy days, hope the new ones are as good ???? David

Evan
09-13-2010, 01:57 PM
This is one thing chinese learned to do well

I doubt they had anything to say about it. They were told to make it like the print.

Peter.
09-13-2010, 02:11 PM
5 grand for a small lathe should get you a QCTP instead of the four-way, I should think, or at least the chance to choose.

wierdscience
09-13-2010, 02:17 PM
At that price it should be a winner,didn't read it yet,but is that for the bare machine or do chucks come with it?

lazlo
09-13-2010, 02:36 PM
I think it will be priced around $5K. That price puts it in the 14x40 class of the typical Asian made lathe.

Sure does look nice though.

Wow, very nice! We were all worried that Pappa Grizzly would just exploit the name, but what a pretty sight!

aboard_epsilon
09-13-2010, 02:38 PM
It's very nice .
don't need a back gear as it seems to go down to 65 rpm.......and with the bigger motor it should have the grunt.

i remember him talking about double row taper bearings in the headstock

yet no claim has been made of this in the sales literature.

all the best.markj

Forrest Addy
09-13-2010, 02:45 PM
The B 10:

First thing I see is that HUGE clunky square tool post. No problem; the compound has a T slot. Adding a lantern tool post or a QC would be like falling off a log. But why a square tool post when for about the same money they could offer a small basic QC?

Second thing is I see is set screw gibs. If you ever bored a deep hole on a lathe with set screw gibs you know why tapered gibs are preferred and way knowledgeable puchasers buy machines equipped with them. SB once used tapered gibs. Why did they change?

Third this is the SB spagetti spindle. Notoriously limber. If they were going to re-engineer the spindle why, oh why, didn't they beef the spindle by 1/2" or so.

The spindle and counter-shaft are a mile long. Why didn't they take advantage of all this length and add two more pulleys to reduce the jumps between spindle speeds. For that matter why not a VFD?

They supplied a 3 jaw chuck and no 4 jaw? Come on! How can you run a lathe without a 4 jaw?

Where is the back gear?

OK fine, it's an SB but it still needs some work and that work need not affect the price.

lazlo
09-13-2010, 02:48 PM
Did you notice "Inch/Metric Threading Capability" and "Inch/Metric Dials"?

Surely they're talking about having an outboard 127 (or 47) tooth transposing gear? :)

Also, I notice they have a T-slotted cross-slide. Nice!

Willy
09-13-2010, 02:51 PM
Beautiful machine, classic lines, robust cross slide.
I'd love to have it sitting in the shop, appears to be very well made and nicely detailed.

I had hoped the new SB 10 would have incorporated a power cross feed and that the spindle bore would have been at least a smidge over 1 inch but then the $4,999.00 target would get blown out of the water.

Also, finally a stand that is worthy of the lathe, at 290 lbs. it seems more than an after thought. Too bad it is only 32 1/2" high.

aboard_epsilon
09-13-2010, 03:14 PM
Beautiful machine, classic lines, robust cross slide.
I'd love to have it sitting in the shop, appears to be very well made and nicely detailed.

I had hoped the new SB 10 would have incorporated a power cross feed and that the spindle bore would have been at least a smidge over 1 inch but then the $4,999.00 target would get blown out of the water.

Also, finally a stand that is worthy of the lathe, at 290 lbs. it seems more than an after thought. Too bad it is only 32 1/2" high.

i would have thought it had the power crossfeed, it has the three position handle.

i bet all that space is left for the higher spec model with more pulley speeds.

all tthe best.markj

Mark Hockett
09-13-2010, 03:45 PM
No cam lock on the tailstock, this is 2010 not 1940

Mcruff
09-13-2010, 03:46 PM
Beautiful machine, classic lines, robust cross slide.
I'd love to have it sitting in the shop, appears to be very well made and nicely detailed.

I had hoped the new SB 10 would have incorporated a power cross feed and that the spindle bore would have been at least a smidge over 1 inch but then the $4,999.00 target would get blown out of the water.

Also, finally a stand that is worthy of the lathe, at 290 lbs. it seems more than an after thought. Too bad it is only 32 1/2" high.

It does have power crossfeed.

Cross feed range: 0.0004 to 0.0131 IPR


Where is the back gear?

It has a second outboard belt drive that acts as a back gear. 4 low speeds and 4 high speed ranges. The orignal South Bend 9" only had 6 speeds and topped out at a whopping 625rpm or so.
I agree that the toolpost is a waste for me and the 4 jaw would be nice but you can still do a huge amount of work with a 3 jaw. Heck in 30+ years of machining I have only actually needed a 4 jaw about a dozen times. A drive plate and a face plate is much handier in my line of machining than 4 jaw. Oh and the original 10K did not come with a 4 jaw unless you ordered a tool room lathe at a higher cost or orderd it as an option.

.RC.
09-13-2010, 04:08 PM
I dunno, I think there are better lathes out there for the money...

no backgear, very very small spindle bore, very slow top speed..

I bet if this did not have the south bend name, people here would be lamblasting it as a prehistoric design from the 1800's

philbur
09-13-2010, 04:20 PM
Or you can have this for the same price, plus all the extras:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/14-x-40-Gear-Head-Floor-Lathe/G0554Z

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x36/philbur/g0554z.jpg

The tears of nostalgia must be seriously clouding your collective vision.

Phil:)

mattm
09-13-2010, 04:24 PM
... The orignal South Bend 9" only had 6 speeds ....


My 10k has 12 speeds. 3 step pulley on the spindle and 2 step pulley off of the motor. With back gear that is 12.

matt

Mcruff
09-13-2010, 04:33 PM
Or you can have this for the same price, plus all the extras:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/14-x-40-Gear-Head-Floor-Lathe/G0554Z

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x36/philbur/g0554z.jpg

The tears of nostalgia must be seriously clouding your collective vision.

Phil:)

Would be nice to have that if I had the room for it! Or a means of getting it where it needs to be. But in all fairness that machine at that price would have me fearfull of buying it and wondering about the quality if I did not see it in person. The South bend isa Taiwanese built machine, not chinese, that for me after 30+ years of running machines and experiencing both speaks volumes about quality.

MuellerNick
09-13-2010, 04:33 PM
The tears of nostalgia must be seriously clouding your collective vision.


Never saw a SB. The one in the first post looks great, but must be from a different century.

The marketing-department (what else do they have?) made a great job. This is exactly the lathe you dreamed of when you were young. Now you can afford it.

But seriously, a lathe that small making only 1600 rpm? I would expect at least 2000, or 2500 rpm. And the workhead (if you look at the picture with the cover swung back) is as stable as a banana-box. A whet one!

Nice SB-plates. But this it was.

Sorry for waking you up!
Nick

fredwillis
09-13-2010, 04:37 PM
Im with forrest and ringer here, it could have real gibs, a spindle bore of 25MM To 1" more, range of speed more fitting of a smaller lathe , add a 4 jaw and steady rest and maybe a follower rest , live center, and a drill chuck for a turnkey package for the total $5,000.

My self I would buy one right now for about $1,000 bucks tops. dont get me wrong it looks sweet but not that sweet.

Mcruff
09-13-2010, 04:38 PM
My 10k has 12 speeds. 3 step pulley on the spindle and 2 step pulley off of the motor. With back gear that is 12.

matt

My 9" does now after swapping parts around. I like not having a gear set for the backgears, just more noise and more crap to worry about over having a belt drive back gear.
Out of my 12 speeds on my 9" I actually use about 5-6 of these speeds most of the time.

Too_Many_Tools
09-13-2010, 04:48 PM
I dunno, I think there are better lathes out there for the money...

no backgear, very very small spindle bore, very slow top speed..

I bet if this did not have the south bend name, people here would be lamblasting it as a prehistoric design from the 1800's

Mind providing links to those better lathes?

Thanks

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-13-2010, 04:54 PM
Good discussion guys.

TMT

Evan
09-13-2010, 05:35 PM
The spindle bore is what it is because it has a MT3 taper. I will bet that a major customer base will be people with old clapped out SB9s and this lathe fits all the tooling excepting chucks. All my collets fit, all my tailstock accessories fit and I don't have to rob accuracy by using an adapter.

I bet that I can sell my SB9 for around 2K up here so that drops the price to around 3500 with shipping. I won't be surprised to see it selling from Busy Bee in the future.

squirrel
09-13-2010, 05:42 PM
I wish they the best.

What improvements have they made over the old design?

TMT
from the photo it looks like bearings in the headstock instead of the Bushings, that would be major improvement.

philbur
09-13-2010, 05:47 PM
In what way is that a major improvement.

Phil:)


from the photo it looks like bearings in the headstock instead of the Bushings, that would be major improvement.

squirrel
09-13-2010, 05:49 PM
If you wait long enough Harbor Freight will have the exact same thing minus the SBL badges for at least 1/2 price. Since the foundry is already making the castings, it will be in every import dealers catalog soon after Grizzly sells a couple.

squirrel
09-13-2010, 05:51 PM
In what way is that a major improvement.

Phil:)
Less than .0005" deflection, you would have a much smoother cut along your work piece.

Evan
09-13-2010, 05:53 PM
It won't be the "exact same thing" since these are made in Taiwan. It may look similar but that will be the extent of the similarity. Not everything that looks alike is alike.

Evan
09-13-2010, 05:55 PM
Less than .0005" deflection, you would have a much smoother cut along your work piece.


Not likely. Hydrostatic plane bearings are the most rigid and provide the smoothest running of any bearing type. That is one reason they are used in turbine engines.

.RC.
09-13-2010, 06:41 PM
Mind providing links to those better lathes?

Thanks

TMT

google is your friend..

goose
09-13-2010, 07:02 PM
It's a very good looking machine, "classic lines" as said. An homage to the glory days of SouthBend, but I don't think anyone will pay $5000 for a trip down memory lane.

Old technology + high price + small capacity = few buyers.


Gary

Evan
09-13-2010, 07:14 PM
I will be one of the few buyers. I like the fact that the controls are all in the usual places. It will do what I want with a nice increase in capability.

Old technology? Ever wonder why Harleys still sell?

Also, with the right chucks and roller bearings there is no reason why it can't be run faster with a VFD. 2500 rpm shouldn't be a problem.

Mcruff
09-13-2010, 07:26 PM
I will be one of the few buyers. I like the fact that the controls are all in the usual places. It will do what I want with a nice increase in capability.

Old technology? Ever wonder why Harleys still sell?

Also, with the right chucks and roller bearings there is no reason why it can't be run faster with a VFD. 2500 rpm shouldn't be a problem.

Well said Evan!!

oldtiffie
09-13-2010, 08:21 PM
I'd be a lot more interested in a comprehensive independent review/report of the lathe when it was "put through its paces" by a competent user.

Most wouldn't buy a vehicle without such a review/report so why go for a lathe just on looks alone (so far?).

lakeside53
09-13-2010, 08:27 PM
I agree....


Even if you can "over speed" that lathe with a vfd (after adding a vfd and three phase motor) , you shouldn't have to. 1200 or 1600 rpm (I've seen both quoted in this thread) is way too low... it is 2010...


And.. $5k for a lathe that is power fed from the lead screw? I'm not a griz fan, but I'll take $5k in griz over "looks".

goose
09-13-2010, 09:10 PM
Don't get me wrong, I applaud the effort and hope they do well, but some observations:

Compound is too small

Steady rest and follower rest are optional, does it have a taper attachment available?

Old fashioned is fine, but come on, for 5 g's it should at least have DRO built in.

Couldn't find net weight, but at 490 lbs gross weight plus 290 lbs for the stand, that's around 800 lbs at most, not impressed.


Old technology, premium price. Example; you can still buy a fantastic quality but nevertheless obsolete film SLR camera, but, except for a few diehards, who wants those anymore?

Gary

rockrat
09-13-2010, 09:10 PM
Or you can have this for the same price, plus all the extras:

Phil:)

Good point, if it were my money and I was trying to run a shop, the decision is clear. I love the look of the South Bend and I wish that it was perfect, I wish it was what I want it to be, but it is what it is. (Yea, I hate that line but it fits)

We just dont know how it will preform and I am a bit worried about the lack of tapered gibs. If the big green bear will ship me one for a test drive, I'll gladly either pay if it is all I think it might be, or I'll ship it back. I wonder if they would take me up on that?

If I can get a bigger lathe with more tooling I would. But if I had the cash to burn, Id take a chance just to see if it is all it looks to be.

Maybe I'll take a long trip over to the store and look it over.

rock~

Gravy
09-13-2010, 09:16 PM
Most of you are missing the point.

It looks like an update of the old South Bend Lathes.

It should perform like an update of the old South Bend Lathes.

It costs less in adjusted dollars than the old South Bend Lathes.

The old South Bend Lathes weren't the greatest lathes ever, but they hit the sweet spot of affordability, performance, and visual appeal.

IMO, PapaGrizzly has hit the nail on the head with a big hammer. It looks like a South Bend, it should perform better than an old South Bend, and it's more affordable than South Bends were back in the day.

Feel free to compare it to a 10EE, or a Grizzly or HF 13x40, or whatever. It's not intended to compete with those. It's aimed at those who always wanted a South Bend, but couldn't stomach the worn-out rustbuckets that have dominated the market for the last couple of decades.

I expect it to be a big hit.

oldtiffie
09-13-2010, 09:18 PM
I wonder just what price or premium is attached just to the "South Bend" name.

I wonder too, that if a USA company were to make that lathe - identical in all respects other than the name - what price they would need to charge to compete in sales with the identical "South Bend"-named product, keeping in mind that both were to be "Made in the USA"?

Tony Ennis
09-13-2010, 09:19 PM
I'll wait for a qualified review before passing judgement.

For whom is this lathe intended? The 'HSMer' covers a lot of territory.

Forrest Addy
09-13-2010, 09:20 PM
I ran a SB heavy 10 as a home shop lathe from kid project time to when I was 30 and I bought my present lathe new. The SB 10 is a machine I know something about. It's a good lathe. Always was. SB was purchased for a zillion schools and small shops and well served many generations of SB lathe owners over. At it's peak B offered quite a size range.

Problem is, the SB is like the Volksvagen beetle. It was designed in the '30's, served well for many years, eventually it was made obsolete in power, performance, economy and amenities by progress in the marketplace. However, there are a vocal number of never say die proponents declaring the SB line as the best and a worn-out, incomplete, rust-bound SB is superior to any new unused budget import lathe on the market.

Not true. Compare the modern day SB to the Grizzly G0554 in the earlier links. Take it a step further: the G0554 is on spec far superior in features and far better equipped than the SB. The price is about the same. Compare the specs in the links.

I've examined the G0554 in the Grizzly showroom and while I haven't run a machine tool survey on it, seen it under power, or run it, I'm prepared to say it appears to be pretty good. Everything is tight, smooth operating, the controls and shifters well placed, and the many label plates legible, instantly understood, and placed appropriately. The range of available speeds and feeds is wider than the SB and I believe that Imperial/Metric threading on the G0554 is a matter of shifitng a lever. The SB seems to require mounting translation gears.

If someone came to me for advise which to buy: the SB or the G0554, I would advise him to set aside his market place loyalties and get the Grizzly lathe. The quality and features of the Grizzly lathe if realized in actual operation are so far ahead of the SB it would be Gingoistic pathalogogical denial not to.

I have no dog in this fight. The decision of what to buy should be based on an objective weighing of advantages and disadvantages. To my mind, there is no contest, the G0554 ia light years ahead of the SB10. I can understand wanting to support domestic suppliers but sad to say, loyalty goes only so far in economic decisions.

Gravy
09-13-2010, 09:27 PM
Of course there's a premium attached to the name. If there wasn't, why would anybody buy it (the name, that is)?

If a USA company made it in the USA, it would cost a lot more. But that's irrelevant. It wouldn't sell at that price. This one is priced where it can sell.

Gravy
09-13-2010, 09:31 PM
In case I haven't made my opinion clear enough:

The new SB isn't the best lathe for the money.

But in comparison to the old ones, it's by far the best SB lathe for the money.

That will make it or break it. I think it will make it.

oldtiffie
09-13-2010, 09:40 PM
Of course there's a premium attached to the name. If there wasn't, why would anybody buy it?

If a USA company made it in the USA, it would cost a lot more. But that's irrelevant. It wouldn't sell at that price. This one is priced where it can sell.

I thought that it IS made by a USA company and made in the USA and IS priced for the USA market - so all those boxes are "ticked".

But in money terms, how much is for the machine and how much is for the name?

And why do your need the name? Is it for sentiment or "bragging rights"?

wierdscience
09-13-2010, 09:57 PM
To me from looking and reading it looks to be what SB Should have done50 years ago.It also looks like a lathe a guy or gal in they're 30's could buy and keep 50 years.

wooleybooger
09-13-2010, 09:59 PM
is this what they call "new,old stock" ? while it is a good looking machine,im not rich or even well-off and would have to take the griz. i love old machinery and would love to have it but i Need something bigger.

Ries
09-13-2010, 10:01 PM
I wonder just what price or premium is attached just to the "South Bend" name.

I wonder too, that if a USA company were to make that lathe - identical in all respects other than the name - what price they would need to charge to compete in sales with the identical "South Bend"-named product, keeping in mind that both were to be "Made in the USA"?


we know that- because, before they went bankrupt, and Papa Grizz bought them, South Bend WAS making lathes in the USA. (well- SOME lathes- the bigger, turnado lathes, above 13", were made in Taiwan for probably the last 20 years)
the last price they listed, for a Heavy 10, was $15,000 or so, almost ten years ago. Since this lathe is a bit smaller and less robust than a heavy ten, I would guess it would cost between $12,000 and $15,000 today, to make it in the USA, but it could be more. It sure wouldnt be less.
There are more Meehanite foundries on the tiny island of Taiwan than in the entire United States. There is more competition, and lower prices, for all machine tool components there, and, even though it is not a dollar a day, Taiwan wages are around half of what we pay here. Of course, they get free health care, education, pensions, and mandatory one month per year bonuses on top of their pay...

Anyway- we know, from past prices, that this lathe would be at least double the price, and probably triple, if made in America.

These lathes are made in Taiwan.

OH, by the way- they have posted, on their website, teaser specs and photos of the new Heavy 13, as well.

http://southbendlathe.com/lathes/Heavy-13-Lathe.aspx

Bruce Griffing
09-13-2010, 10:09 PM
I saw the prototype today at IMTS. There were no production units as I thought had been promised. While there are some solid improvement over the original design - the drive belts for example - there are also some things that look bad. The thread counter has a crappy looking sheet metal indicator on top. The tailstock had a lightweight feel as well. I am not a South Bend owner, but I was a little let down by what I saw.

Oldbrock
09-13-2010, 10:45 PM
While I like the look of the new SB I can't see a taper attachment offered and too many accessories are extra. I won't buy a lathe unless it has a taper attachment as I do a lot of taper turning and taper threading. I 'll stick with my old 10K for now but would like a larger spindle bore and a separate feed rod. I think there are better buys out there for the buck. Peter

lynnl
09-13-2010, 11:07 PM
Does someone know for sure this is made in Taiwan?
I'm thinking I remember reading a press release, or some such, from Mr. Grizzly, back a year or three ago, that these were to be made in Korea. Or at least the castings.
Or maybe the castings were to be sent to Korea for final manufacture. But S. Korea figured in there somewhere.

Then again... maybe I'm mis-remembering.

J. Randall
09-13-2010, 11:21 PM
Does someone know for sure this is made in Taiwan?
I'm thinking I remember reading a press release, or some such, from Mr. Grizzly, back a year or three ago, that these were to be made in Korea. Or at least the castings.
Or maybe the castings were to be sent to Korea for final manufacture. But S. Korea figured in there somewhere.

Then again... maybe I'm mis-remembering.

I followed the original discussion on this lathe over on the PM SB a while back, and I thought they were going to be made in China. Does anyone know for sure?
James

oldtiffie
09-13-2010, 11:34 PM
Thanks for the "heads up" Ries - appreciated.

I commend Forrest Addy for his excellent post - that I read three times - to everyone here. It was "tops".

Thanks Forrest.

It seems then that the "must be made in the USA" and "South Bend" enthusiasts have quite a moral dilemma in front of them.

I am NOT anti-"Made in the USA" or anti-SB either - at all. I have run the smaller bench-top belt-driven SB's and the OZ made-under-licence "Qualos" (and another) lathes. All were belt-driven. Some belts were the usual 3-cone flat belt with back-gears.

Another was - as I recall - a 4-cone vee-belt driven by an attached over-head pulley which in turn was driven by a 3-cone vee-pulley on the reversible motor. There were 3 x 4 = 12 speeds there - without the back-gear. It had a very good lever-operated capstan/turret accessory that mounted directly on the lathe bed. It had all the required accessories - box-tools, Coventry die-heads etc. It was one of the best lathes for threading, form-tooling and tough materials for its size that I have ever used. It had a quick-change gear-box, power feeds and all accessories. The belts were all segmented vee-belts. I cannot recall if it had plain or ball/taper bearings - probably "plain". It was a light lathe and if I saw one today in good condition - I'd buy it - irrespective of whether it had the S-B or Qualos name on it. It would be ideal in my shop for the work I do. It may have been a "special" or "modded" in a shop - I have no idea.

I'd be prepared to pay say US$2>4,000 to have it re-ground (bed, saddle, cross-slide, top-slide and tail-stock) if needs be. I'd have a very good lathe for a reasonable price - with a lot of sentimental value in it "for old times sake" too.

But that pipe-dream is not going to happen in my life-time here in OZ and given the quite few "shop" years that I have left, it will not be worth waiting for.

On that basis, it is probable to the extent that it is pretty well certain that my next lathe will be "Chinese".

I don't buy on reputation or sentiment as those things change over time and the original reputation as it is may not have been correct anyway.

I make a point of knowing what I want or need and looking for it at a price I am prepared to pay - based on performance only and not on country or origin.

I think its important that readers/members know just what the new S-B range is and where its from so that they can base their decision on and informed basis.

Forrest made the excellent point that S-B lathes were ubiquitous - and were everywhere as they saturated all the schools and colleges and small and not so small shops.

So, people were pretty-well brain-washed on a sentimental basis to "think S-B" when they were buying a lathe. Same as AutoCad and Apple/MacIntosh computers (which saturated the schools here) did. It was a classic pre-emptive "loss-leader" strategy - just as the large retail chains do now. But most of the S-B/Qualos sales were to "Government" on a preferential/sole/preferred supplier basis. So they had it "sewn up" and effectively had their competition locked-out/excluded.

I learned a long time ago not to be too "starry-eyed" about such things - but I admit that I have and occasionally still do buy from sentiment and the "heart" rather then cold-hearted rationale'.

Evan
09-13-2010, 11:43 PM
The thread counter has a crappy looking sheet metal indicator on top...

Damn. There goes that plan... :rolleyes:

S_J_H
09-14-2010, 12:07 AM
I have a SB9A with a variable speed dc drive on it.
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n48/S_J_H/SOUTHBEND%209/restoredSouthBendlathe001.jpg
It's a good machine and even though the bed is well worn it still cuts true to .0004" over 6".
When comparing any of the Asian 9x and 10x or 11x lathes I would take my old SB any day over them.

But at $5k one could buy a new 14x40.
So these new 10K SB's will have to have the quality to backup that price and not just nostalgic looks. PapaGrizz says they do, and they do look very nice in the pics. One minor thing that jumped out at me right away besides the obvious cheap thread dial indicator, was the knurled feed selector knob on the carriage with the big acorn nut on the end. It looks like those crude spring pin selectors and seems out of place.
http://images.southbendlathe.com/productphotos/lathes/10K-Lathe/sb1002-detail-r.jpg

The original selector knob is nicely made and finished-
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n48/S_J_H/SOUTHBEND%209/IMG_1581.jpg

That might be nit-picking but this is a $5,000 10" lathe.
I'm not a fan of the exposed gib screws with lock nuts either. But that's a easy fix.

So maybe a few things minor things here and there they can fix, and I feel the lathe should come with a QCTP , a 4Jaw chuck and a steady rest at that price. I do think they will sell quite a few. It's easy to put 5K on a credit card these days..:p
IMHO the overall look of the machine is excellent and Hot damn!!! a new manual lathe that does not look like it was made in Square Box Land where curves have not yet been discovered.
So I give it 4 out of 5 stars.
Steve

Too_Many_Tools
09-14-2010, 12:09 AM
google is your friend..

LOL...thought so.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-14-2010, 12:16 AM
Don't get me wrong, I applaud the effort and hope they do well, but some observations:

Compound is too small

Steady rest and follower rest are optional, does it have a taper attachment available?

Old fashioned is fine, but come on, for 5 g's it should at least have DRO built in.

Couldn't find net weight, but at 490 lbs gross weight plus 290 lbs for the stand, that's around 800 lbs at most, not impressed.


Old technology, premium price. Example; you can still buy a fantastic quality but nevertheless obsolete film SLR camera, but, except for a few diehards, who wants those anymore?

Gary


Old technology, premium price...isn't that what a Harley Davidson motorcycle is?

Maybe they are going to sell the lathe at a loss and make their big money on the SB merchandise.

I wonder when OCC will be making a SB bike?

TMT

S_J_H
09-14-2010, 12:26 AM
I wonder when OCC will be making a SB bike?

Oh geez! please never! I can't bear the thought of a bike with a tailstock welded to the tank and ball handles sticking out all over the place!:eek:

MickeyD
09-14-2010, 12:48 AM
I looked at the proto at ITEC today and it looks a little Chinese to me. Not horrible, just not quite right. The one that jumped out was the thread dial was aluminum and looked like it would get dinked up way too easy. The handles did not feel original, the tapers felt off. Other than the new 10K, the rest of their stuff was just generic asian imports with a new paint color and decals with premium prices. Sorry to hurt anyones feelings, just my $.02.

Too_Many_Tools
09-14-2010, 01:09 AM
I looked at the proto at ITEC today and it looks a little Chinese to me. Not horrible, just not quite right. The one that jumped out was the thread dial was aluminum and looked like it would get dinked up way too easy. The handles did not feel original, the tapers felt off. Other than the new 10K, the rest of their stuff was just generic asian imports with a new paint color and decals with premium prices. Sorry to hurt anyones feelings, just my $.02.

Actually that wouldn't surpriseme.

With the deep recession companies are retrenched and not introducing anything of significance.

Repaint and resticker is a cheap way to give the illusion that a product line has been freshened up.

TMT

Ries
09-14-2010, 01:42 AM
Does someone know for sure this is made in Taiwan?
I'm thinking I remember reading a press release, or some such, from Mr. Grizzly, back a year or three ago, that these were to be made in Korea. Or at least the castings.
Or maybe the castings were to be sent to Korea for final manufacture. But S. Korea figured in there somewhere.

Then again... maybe I'm mis-remembering.


Here is the exact quote that PapaGrizzly posted on PM a couple of days ago-

"Designed here and made in Taiwan in a factory that primarily makes CNC machines."

The Old, Original South Bend company did source some lathes from Korea- that might be what you are thinking of. I think in the 80's they were buying some castings from Korea.
The original Indiana company actually badged imported lathes as South Bends since the 70's, maybe earlier. They sold the Nordics, which were made in france, and some of their bigger lathes were made in Spain for a while, they sold made in Korea and Australia South bends, and, for about the last 20 years or so, the bigger lathes, the Turnados, were from Taiwan, I believe from this same factory.
This was all years before Grizzly bought South Bend.

As I understand it, the current larger South Bends are pretty much the same lathes that the Indiana South Bend company has been selling for quite some time, from the same Taiwan factory that made them for many years.

This new one, and the new Heavy 13, are also from Taiwan, but are new redesigned models, not just continuations of the older ones that were being sold by the previous owners.

Now me, I wouldnt buy one- even upgraded, its still basically a 1940's lathe.
I have a Taiwan lathe that I like a lot better right now, but if I was gonna upgrade, it would be to a lathe that had digital threading, like the new HLVH copies that feeler is selling.
Also, I would want more speed, and a bigger spindle bore.

squirrel
09-14-2010, 03:24 AM
It's a very good looking machine, "classic lines" as said. An homage to the glory days of SouthBend, but I don't think anyone will pay $5000 for a trip down memory lane.

Old technology + high price + small capacity = few buyers.


Gary
You might be pretty close to correct, the design is primative compared to other imports and for the same money you can buy a much better import that is already fitted with a DRO and will be just as accurate if not better.

Your Old Dog
09-14-2010, 08:23 AM
.........................................

Old technology? Ever wonder why Harleys still sell?

...............................

Careful Evan :rolleyes: :D

lazlo
09-14-2010, 08:24 AM
To me from looking and reading it looks to be what SB Should have done 50 years ago.

I never understood that either. South Bend was selling Made in USA machines in the 90's with a flat belt and plain bearings. You can't expect to stay in business selling the same machine for 100 years.

Especially odd since Boxford and Hercus made excellent, modernized South Bends.

camdigger
09-14-2010, 08:34 AM
I never understood that either. South Bend was selling Made in USA machines in the 90's with a flat belt and plain bearings. You can't expect to stay in business selling the same machine for 100 years.

Especially odd since Boxford and Hercus made excellent, modernized South Bends.

+1

I'm still not biting on the SB idea. I got more lathe with more features and accessories for similar money from a dealer across town from work. http://www.moderntool.com/lathes%20new.htm
Lathe came ready to level and plug in complete with a set of disposable tool holders.

Nostalgia doesn't count for much when you need to turn a taper on a 12" work piece....

aboard_epsilon
09-14-2010, 09:36 AM
the threading info plates look like stickers !

all the best.markj

lynnl
09-14-2010, 09:58 AM
The Old, Original South Bend company did source some lathes from Korea- that might be what you are thinking of. I think in the 80's they were buying some castings from Korea.
The original Indiana company actually badged imported lathes as South Bends since the 70's, maybe earlier. They sold the Nordics, which were made in france, and some of their bigger lathes were made in Spain for a while, they sold made in Korea and Australia South bends, and, for about the last 20 years or so, the bigger lathes, the Turnados, were from Taiwan, I believe from this same factory.
This was all years before Grizzly bought South Bend.




OK, thanks Ries. That explains it, and re-tickles my memory.
It's comforting to know I haven't TOTALLY lost my mind (yet); just partly.

Rigger
09-14-2010, 11:31 AM
Am I correct in thinking from the first picture it doesn't have a no volt start ?
if so isn't that illegal or is retro exempt.
First thing I noticed as Mark Hockett said was that you need a spanner for the tailstock ?

I have a late model Boxford lathe in storage for when I finish over here and it miles in front as regards design and mine is 30 years old at least.

Rigger.

PaulT
09-14-2010, 12:03 PM
OH, by the way- they have posted, on their website, teaser specs and photos of the new Heavy 13, as well.

http://southbendlathe.com/lathes/Heavy-13-Lathe.aspx

This lathe looks like it will have appeal to both serious HSM shops and the tool room of commercial facilities.

2700 lbs, 1.65" thru hole, 5HP, 3000 RPM and to the eyeball the design, fit and finish appear to be a cut above the typical Grizzley/Jet clone chinese lathe.

There has been a "dead zone" between the low end chinese lathes in this size range and a lathe of better quality, you had to pay 5 times as much to get something twice as good, if you could find one. This lathe may give an option in that dead zone, depending on how its priced.

I want one.

Paul T.
www.power-t.com

philbur
09-14-2010, 12:12 PM
I was of the impression that, for a lathe design that is both cost and quality conscious, a belt drive and plain bearings was hard to beat, even in 2010.

Phil:)


South Bend was selling Made in USA machines in the 90's with a flat belt and plain bearings. You can't expect to stay in business selling the same machine for 100 years.

MuellerNick
09-14-2010, 02:28 PM
I just read at PM, that the 10K makes only 1200 rpm. Now that is really ridiculous.

Also, here is a picture (http://i56.tinypic.com/wgyiki.jpg) of the headstock. That is really a flexible design.



Nick

lazlo
09-14-2010, 02:41 PM
I just read at PM, that the 10K makes only 1200 rpm. Now that is really ridiculous.

Also, here is a picture (http://i56.tinypic.com/wgyiki.jpg) of the headstock. That is really a flexible design.

The low spindle speed seems to imply plain bearings.

MuellerNick
09-14-2010, 03:24 PM
The low spindle speed seems to imply plain bearings.


But it has roller bearings (from Japan).


Nick

The Artful Bodger
09-14-2010, 03:28 PM
But it has roller bearings (from Japan).


Nick

But, but, EVERY Chinese lathe has Japanese bearings, just ask the importer!:D

MuellerNick
09-14-2010, 03:49 PM
But, but, EVERY Chinese lathe has Japanese bearings, just ask the importer!

The SB is said to be made in Taiwan. Them and SB, I trust a thousand times more than the Chinese.

I think that it was quite a clever step to buy the SB brand and build on its reputation. That will -of course- only work in the long run if they actually can deliver what people hope to get.

It would be too small for me. If I would want one that size, I have four points why I won't even have a look at it:
* lead screw is inch
* feed screws are supposedly inch (even if the dials are metric / inch)
* spindle bore way too small
* RPM way too low


Nick

KiloBravo
09-14-2010, 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by Papagrizzly
Come see the full line of South Bend machines at the IMTS show in Chicago this September. The new 10K lathe will be there, being demonstrated, and if we are lucky, we may even have the Heavy 10 done by then. We have been testing the prototype 10K for several months now.

All the lathes and Mills are made in Taiwan. The stands for the bench-top lathes will be made in the USA by the original maker of the heavy duty stands that made them in the old days.


Dennis Turk said

The lathes you see on the SB web site are built by Turret Mfg. in Taiwan. Same company that builds the Lagun Turmaster and there Republic lathes. These are the same people that built the very nice lathes that SB sold under the Turnado brand name in the nineties. I have four Turret Mfg. built lathes in my business. Two TWS 14 by 40 one that was sold under there factory name of Turret and one new Lagun Republic electronic variable speed lathe with Constant surface controls for the cross slide. This is the same lathe that SB sold the US government in the nineties. Turret also built the 13 by 30 that was sold to the US military in the eighties. These were exceptionally fine machines. Again Lagun Republic won the contract for these machine and in doing so beat out the Clausing Colchester 13 inch tool room lathes that the military specifications actually were written for.

Turk

Gravy
09-14-2010, 05:59 PM
I thought that it IS made by a USA company and made in the USA and IS priced for the USA market - so all those boxes are "ticked".

But in money terms, how much is for the machine and how much is for the name?

And why do your need the name? Is it for sentiment or "bragging rights"?

It's not made in the USA.

The whole machine is about sentiment and bragging rights. "I've got a brand new SB!" and "That's what a lathe should look like!".

It's not competing on it's merits as a serious money-making lathe. It's aimed at the guys who want an updated antique SB. It *has* to look like their mental image of an SB. Actual performance is secondary, as long as they can make some parts.

I think PapaGrizzly has done a fine job of targeting his market base. I'd be part of that base if I had the money.

I'll also add that this is just the "new 10K". The 10K was never meant to be a production machine.

I'm really curious to see what the new Heavy 10 looks like.

Mcgyver
09-14-2010, 06:25 PM
No cam lock on the tailstock, this is 2010 not 1940

I don't think i'd fault that, that set up is preferred imo to a camlock....camlock is convenient but is not as solid and can slip....if you only have one, the straight bolt is stronger...maybe in 2011 the can do what the did in '66 on my big lathe, give you both :D



Or you can have this for the same price, plus all the extras:

The tears of nostalgia must be seriously clouding your collective vision.

Phil:)

good point, i mean if they're both made in asia you'd expect similar quality, right? Are these grizzley's considered one of the better asian lathes out there? I have lots of experience with branding and the value of a brand etc, but this isn't say fashion or even a consumer product in the usual sense....with similar price points, if people rationally view this as the same Asia quality sans chucks as larger Asian lathes, why would they buy this one?

Nick, Taiwan is more deserving of trust than china but having scraped a Taiwan machine its far from 100% and still Chinese insofar as culture and economics go.... two of the primary drivers of the quality gap.

The nostalgia of form and finish and nice and hopefully its great and bridges the quality gap....but if if take 'Taiwan' as a brand they're got some brand building to do before it tempts me

saltytri
09-14-2010, 07:51 PM
For that kind of money, I'd buy German.

A D6000E costs somewhat more but it's a heck of a nice machine.

Gravy
09-14-2010, 08:19 PM
After looking more closely at the specs, it's increasingly obvious to me that the new 10K is carefully targeted at the Olde Pharte HSM category. You know - the guys like me, and maybe you.

We want a lathe that matches us. Maybe it's kinda out of date. It isn't up to current production standards. It's not remotely high-performance and it's not CNC. Neither are we.

OTOH, it still gets the job done, and it does it with some style. Maybe it even has some fun in the process.

It's not a modern production lathe. It's not rigid, or efficient, or guaranteed profitable for the purchaser.

B

F

D


Nearly every other lathe manufacturer is focusing on practicality or profitability. A lot of the posters here are doing the same thing.

Guess what? You are all missing the point. You just don't Get It.

The new 10K isn't here to replace a Haas or a 10EE or an American Pacemaker. It's here to offer a better alternative to a 9C that should have been melted down back around 1965. It's here to compete with the 10" Atlas that I recently bought because it was the best option within several hundred miles.

So the threading dial is kinda cheesy. So the tailstock doesn't have a camlock. So it's light and not really rigid.

So what? What other current offering is as HSM friendly and visually attractive for the price?

AFAIK, the original SB 10K was kinda light, kinda flexible and kinda affordable. The new one looks like it's following that tradition.

I've got an idea that the original 10K cost about as much as a new economy car. What kind of new car can you buy for $5K today?

For $5K, you are getting a brand new light-duty lathe that will do most anything a typical HSM'er cares about. It pretty much looks like a "real lathe" in the eyes of us older guys.

I'm not seeing anything else on the market that fills that niche.

JCHannum
09-14-2010, 08:23 PM
It is $1300 to $1700 more expensive than the 10K, is a change gear machine (only 12 Imperial threads) with no power cross feed. It is only 24" between centers and is available in either Imperial or metric versions, not combined as the 10K is. Hardly an improvement over the 10K for a very substantial additional cost.

It would seem that the 10K is a good value in comparison.

Gravy
09-14-2010, 08:57 PM
Apples

Oranges

Pomegranates

Anvils

...

WTF?

It's a hobbyist machine.

Why is anybody comparing it to any kind of industrial machine?

Totally different markets.

It's fairly curvy & pretty, it's reasonably affordable (compared to real industrial stuff), it should be understandable to a newbie HSM'er. It looks like a "lathe" to those of us who bought HTRAL decades before we found a machine.

You guys who have been doing this for a while (Mac & Nick and others) may have gotten spoiled. You have shifted focus from what looks right to what makes money. That's entirely reasonable, but that's not who SB is aiming the new 10K at.

The new 10K isn't about making money (for the buyer). It's about getting something like the lathe that we wanted way back then. We still want that South Bend that impressed us back then. We just want it to be new and within financial reach.

saltytri
09-14-2010, 09:11 PM
It is $1300 to $1700 more expensive than the 10K, is a change gear machine (only 12 Imperial threads) with no power cross feed. It is only 24" between centers and is available in either Imperial or metric versions, not combined as the 10K is. Hardly an improvement over the 10K for a very substantial additional cost.

It would seem that the 10K is a good value in comparison.

Not if you'd rather take photographs with a Leica instead of a Seagull! :p My Wabeco is worth every penny to me.

Many good points, including yours, have been made in this very interesting thread. Different strokes....

Gravy
09-14-2010, 09:19 PM
Not if you'd rather take photographs with a Leica instead of a Seagull! :p My Wabeco is worth every penny to me.

Many good points, including yours, have been made in this very interesting thread. Different strokes....

Different strokes indeed!

I hung on to my 35mm film cameras and darkroom equipment for too long. I could have sold it all a few years ago for maybe 20% of what I paid for it, but I waited too long. Now I'm trying to figure out who will accept it as a donation.

I guess I shouldn't count on selling my buggy whip collection to finance a luxurious retirement...

gda
09-14-2010, 09:24 PM
No cam lock on the tailstock, this is 2010 not 1940


My 1918 Pratt & Whitney 10" toolmaker has a cam-lock on the tailstock, so I guess it's not 1918 either!

oldtiffie
09-14-2010, 09:35 PM
Apples

Oranges

Pomegranates

Anvils

...

WTF?

It's a hobbyist machine.

Why is anybody comparing it to any kind of industrial machine?

Totally different markets.

It's fairly curvy & pretty, it's reasonably affordable (compared to real industrial stuff), it should be understandable to a newbie HSM'er. It looks like a "lathe" to those of us who bought HTRAL decades before we found a machine.

You guys who have been doing this for a while (Mac & Nick and others) may have gotten spoiled. You have shifted focus from what looks right to what makes money. That's entirely reasonable, but that's not who SB is aiming the new 10K at.

The new 10K isn't about making money (for the buyer). It's about getting something like the lathe that we wanted way back then. We still want that South Bend that impressed us back then. We just want it to be new and within financial reach.

Good post and a good reality check Gravy.

Some really do need to get their heads out of the clouds and their feet back onto the ground.

"Production"-oriented people and discussion really or perhaps do belong to PM.

This is a HSM - read: non/not-production orientated - as it is a Hobby/Home shop-orientated forum.

All that is really needed is a machine that is just above the most likely requirement for a HSM-er. Anything above that is really just a bonus or an excess capacity and cost at the expense of money and space for other stuff that is needed by the HSM-er.

A HSM-er is not a lesser person or less able because he does not have the latest and/or greatest machine/s or if he is not interested in "grunt" and "hogging" - or "tear-ar$ing" either.

My guess is that if most here were to lose a foot or so off the length of their lathe or mill bed they would hardly miss it.

Some need to take a few deep breaths and a cold shower.

I have no issues with the S-B lathe in question, nor do I have any issue with anyone buying - or not buying one - provided that it suits their needs and their pocket-book.

I've seen some extraordinary work here by some ordinary people in ordinary shops on some pretty ordinary tools and machines.

Once time, speed and "making money" are injected into a hobby or a hobby shop, it pretty well stops being a hobby and/or a a hobby shop as well.

So - if the S-B lathe suits the needs of a HSM-er and he has the cash and the space - and the need - he and that lathe should do very well.

lazlo
09-14-2010, 09:55 PM
But at $5k one could buy a new 14x40.

So these new 10K SB's will have to have the quality to backup that price and not just nostalgic looks.

I think that's what it ultimately comes down to. Same company, same Taiwanese factory, same price. Seems like you get a whole lot more for your money with Grizzly's 14x40.

gwilson
09-14-2010, 09:56 PM
I have tried to DREDGE through this long thread. I skipped a few pages,but did not see any complaints about the messed up tailstock design. WTF can't pattern makers get things right? Don't care for the contours of the carriage either,or the Asian looking handles. I'll bet the thread info. plate is printed on flat aluminum sheet,not the 3D brass plate of old. The thread gauge dial is cheapened up,too.

I'm sure it will perform well,but I really have been waiting to see this,and am not happy about the aesthetics and cheaper appointments.for $5000.00.

wierdscience
09-14-2010, 11:20 PM
I think that's what it ultimately comes down to. Same company, same Taiwanese factory, same price. Seems like you get a whole lot more for your money with Grizzly's 14x40.

I dunno,the 14x40 is mainland China and there are a lot of parts to break on that one.It's also possible that model is here today gone tomorrow the day after a gear busts in the headstock.Not to say the SB would be guaranteed to be around any longer,but nearly every piece on it can be generated from raw stock in the HSM environment without the need for heat treating and grinding gear teeth.

Some of the gripes about the lathe might not be present once the production models hit the floor.I say give the man credit for at least making a good atempt.

Mcgyver
09-14-2010, 11:45 PM
So the threading dial is kinda cheesy. So the tailstock doesn't have a camlock. So it's light and not really rigid.

So what? What other current offering is as HSM friendly and visually attractive for the price?
.

the comparison that makes sense is other 5k options....the tailstock is extremely rigid compared to my unimat (you'll note i favour the solid tailstock clamp over camlock) but that's your apples to anvils - they're not both 5k options. If something bigger, stronger with more accessories and comparable quality to this new model is 5k, this new SB faces some serious challenges. I said if, as i don't know the grizzly line or other 5k Asian lathes, what quality they are, or how this offering compares...but that's the apples to apples the market will do; compare 5k to 5k options

I've spent about 5k total for all the machines currently sitting in my shop and next to nothing if viewed on a net basis. For me that's part of the hobby - anyone can go write cheques, but building capacity on the cheap requires some thought! Now the next guy could care less and just wants to get on with it and its all good....point being I'm not saying you have to spend more than 5k to get a good lathe and there's no industrial elitism going on (i'm an amateur) here, 5k is more than i spent on all my machines. I wouldn't pay 5k for it but I’m in an area where there's old iron and I have the inclination to fix them up....for someone else though it’s probably going to be a more cut and dried "what else could 5k get me" in that context, the things you say 'who cares' to will very much matter.

btw, I'm not judging the machine; it’s you who've said the dial is cheesy and its light and not rigid. I'm saying how it will be judged. For all i know its great; but your confusing me a bit because you seem to strongly be supporting the lathe yet you also seem to be agreeing with the naysayers that it doesn't compare well (as per above quotes)?

Maybe the nut of our differing views is you're putting more value in the ascetics than I and expect the market to see considerable value there. I think people like ascetics, but in the face of less power and rigidity and tooling, if that's the case, most won't chose aesthetics....it’s an engineering crowd (small "e" Robert :D ) so my sense is function will tend to get more votes than form.... but who knows, you may be right....time will tell

squirrel
09-14-2010, 11:46 PM
I dunno,the 14x40 is mainland China and there are a lot of parts to break on that one.It's also possible that model is here today gone tomorrow the day after a gear busts in the headstock.Not to say the SB would be guaranteed to be around any longer,but nearly every piece on it can be generated from raw stock in the HSM environment without the need for heat treating and grinding gear teeth.

Some of the gripes about the lathe might not be present once the production models hit the floor.I say give the man credit for at least making a good atempt.
The original USA made SBL gearbox would bust the gears/teeth if abused, I cannot imagine the cheap import lasting very long. That style of gear box is an extremely poor design compared to what we now know about power transmission then you use cheap import parts, it looks like a cash cow for grizzly.

wierdscience
09-15-2010, 12:11 AM
The original USA made SBL gearbox would bust the gears/teeth if abused, I cannot imagine the cheap import lasting very long. That style of gear box is an extremely poor design compared to what we now know about power transmission then you use cheap import parts, it looks like a cash cow for grizzly.

The couple I ran had pretty s---y gears in them,the new ones might be better.The SB,Atlas,Logan etc lathes were intended to be the jacknife of lathes.A small lathe that could do nearly anything with some tooling and imagination(look at the stuff Evan pulls off with his).They won't do it fast,but they will do it.

Personally I would like to see someone build a "bench lathe" that weighs 2,000lbs,has a D1-4 or 6 spindle,5hp on VFD with electric leadscrews and threading.

Nothing fancy,nothing cute,just brute force in a small footprint.Basically rectangular blocks of cast iron bolted and doweled together and fitted with replaceable hard ways.

Awh hell,does Haas make a bench version of the TL-1?:D

MuellerNick
09-15-2010, 03:58 AM
The new 10K isn't about making money (for the buyer). It's about getting something like the lathe that we wanted way back then.

I do understand that. I look at it as a HSM-lathe.
You couldn't be productive when you have to shift over the belt for a speed change. But that's OK for the HSM.

There are talks about a heavy 10. And with this, the picture is getting clearer for me. They wanted to make clear differences between the two and maybe force you to buy the heavy 10. Just by leaving out simple things on the 10K that would have come almost for free.

Buying a 10K will be more a non-rational decision. Yes, I like the looks from the pictures.


Nick

squirrel
09-15-2010, 09:47 AM
The couple I ran had pretty s---y gears in them,the new ones might be better.The SB,Atlas,Logan etc lathes were intended to be the jacknife of lathes.A small lathe that could do nearly anything with some tooling and imagination(look at the stuff Evan pulls off with his).They won't do it fast,but they will do it.

Personally I would like to see someone build a "bench lathe" that weighs 2,000lbs,has a D1-4 or 6 spindle,5hp on VFD with electric leadscrews and threading.

Nothing fancy,nothing cute,just brute force in a small footprint.Basically rectangular blocks of cast iron bolted and doweled together and fitted with replaceable hard ways.

Awh hell,does Haas make a bench version of the TL-1?:D
Sherline has the right idea with their micro lathe, its a proven design and would scale up very easy. The big negative is called getting sued when a large part launches from the machine. I am sure the legal issues and price point are the only things stopping them from producing a lathe like.
One of the other reasons the import lathes are popular with importers is due to the product liable being passed to the manufacture when some one gets hurt. What is the chance of actually finding and then file suit against a company in China, Taiwan,Korea, etc.

We have a TL-2 in the shop and it is an excellent machine, I cannot see Haas making a hobby version. The hobby version would have to be lightened some what to bring the price point within reach of the extreme hobbyist and that would mean using some parts of lower tolerance etc. It could damage their brand if buyers would use the "hobby" grade machine beyond its design limits and had problems. That is the problem with all the internet forums and chat rooms, you don't get the whole story, just the negative component and without knowledge of a possible hidden agenda.

lazlo
09-15-2010, 12:28 PM
I think that's what it ultimately comes down to. Same company, same Taiwanese factory, same price. Seems like you get a whole lot more for your money with Grizzly's 14x40.
I dunno,the 14x40 is mainland China.

Wait, the South Bend catalog (and PappaGrizzly) seem to imply that the the SouthBends, the new Turnados, and the 14x40's are all made on the same factory line??

The Artful Bodger
09-15-2010, 04:50 PM
Twenty years from now...........

[newbie] "What sort of lathe should I buy?"

[oldephart1] "Buy Chinese, you will get the best value for your money.."

[oldephart2] "No, buy old American iron and get quality."

[oldephart3] "Buy South Bend 10K, they were all bought by olde pharts and never used"

fredwillis
09-15-2010, 05:13 PM
Twenty years from now...........

[newbie] "What sort of lathe should I buy?"

[oldephart1] "Buy Chinese, you will get the best value for your money.."

[oldephart2] "No, buy old American iron and get quality."

[oldephart3] "Buy South Bend 10K, they were all bought by olde pharts and never used"

Twenty years from now kids will be messing around in dads shop doing 5 axis center line angular offset thread milling. heck our kid plays with a cnc plasma and cnc router in school now.

Gravy
09-15-2010, 05:50 PM
the comparison that makes sense is other 5k options....the tailstock is extremely rigid compared to my unimat (you'll note i favour the solid tailstock clamp over camlock) but that's your apples to anvils - they're not both 5k options. If something bigger, stronger with more accessories and comparable quality to this new model is 5k, this new SB faces some serious challenges. I said if, as i don't know the grizzly line or other 5k Asian lathes, what quality they are, or how this offering compares...but that's the apples to apples the market will do; compare 5k to 5k options

I've spent about 5k total for all the machines currently sitting in my shop and next to nothing if viewed on a net basis. For me that's part of the hobby - anyone can go write cheques, but building capacity on the cheap requires some thought! Now the next guy could care less and just wants to get on with it and its all good....point being I'm not saying you have to spend more than 5k to get a good lathe and there's no industrial elitism going on (i'm an amateur) here, 5k is more than i spent on all my machines. I wouldn't pay 5k for it but Iím in an area where there's old iron and I have the inclination to fix them up....for someone else though itís probably going to be a more cut and dried "what else could 5k get me" in that context, the things you say 'who cares' to will very much matter.

btw, I'm not judging the machine; itís you who've said the dial is cheesy and its light and not rigid. I'm saying how it will be judged. For all i know its great; but your confusing me a bit because you seem to strongly be supporting the lathe yet you also seem to be agreeing with the naysayers that it doesn't compare well (as per above quotes)?

Maybe the nut of our differing views is you're putting more value in the ascetics than I and expect the market to see considerable value there. I think people like ascetics, but in the face of less power and rigidity and tooling, if that's the case, most won't chose aesthetics....itís an engineering crowd (small "e" Robert :D ) so my sense is function will tend to get more votes than form.... but who knows, you may be right....time will tell


I think we probably agree about the objective quality of the lathe, and that there are better lathes available for the money. I just don't think that it's intended to compete in the area of specs and performance. It's the only new HSM lathe that looks retro. The aesthetics are what will sell it. The performance will probably be good enough.

Rigger
09-15-2010, 07:35 PM
Well I don't know if it's me or not but it looks real ugly, I know it's supposed to be retro but it looks even older than it's supposed to, more 1920's with that flat belt drive and sweeping castings.

I wouldn't buy one, if I wanted retro I'd buy a poster.

Rigger.

squirrel
09-15-2010, 07:45 PM
They should have used the round leg stand, I feel that is a classic design and my favorite!!! Its even better because you can sweep up the chips with out moving the machine around.

wierdscience
09-15-2010, 08:48 PM
Wait, the South Bend catalog (and PappaGrizzly) seem to imply that the the SouthBends, the new Turnados, and the 14x40's are all made on the same factory line??

I think he means this 14x40,not the Tan and Green models-

http://southbendlathe.com/lathes/14x40-16-Speed-Toolroom-Lathe.aspx

Now I wonder what would happen if they started making this beauty again?


http://southbendlathe.com/lathes/1926-Lathe-Rebuild.aspx


I wonder if that's Papagriz's new toy?

Elninio
09-16-2010, 12:46 AM
why is the spindle speed only 1200rpm for such a small lathe?

dp
09-16-2010, 12:57 AM
why is the spindle speed only 1200rpm for such a small lathe?

If this were 1948 it would make no sense, but since it's 2010 there is probably a lawyer involved in the design and sed lawyer probably advises against building a machine that is going to churn Joe Sixpack's bowels for hours before his wife discovers him slumped bowelless over his new Bison chuck.

lazlo
09-16-2010, 08:29 AM
I think he means this 14x40,not the Tan and Green models-

http://southbendlathe.com/lathes/14x40-16-Speed-Toolroom-Lathe.aspx

That's the one I was talking about :) It's been pointed out several times in the thread that the blue/white 14x40 is $5,000 -- same price as the 10K replica.


since it's 2010 there is probably a lawyer involved in the design and sed lawyer probably advises against building a machine that is going to churn Joe Sixpack's bowels for hours before his wife discovers him slumped bowelless over his new Bison chuck.

PappaGrizzly made his fortune selling lathes from mainland China, and suddenly one of them is going to be the subject of a lawsuit :rolleyes:

wierdscience
09-16-2010, 08:56 AM
That's the one I was talking about :) It's been pointed out several times in the thread that the blue/white 14x40 is $5,000 -- same price as the 10K replica.



PappaGrizzly made his fortune selling lathes from mainland China, and suddenly one of them is going to be the subject of a lawsuit :rolleyes:

The confusion began not long after philbur posted this(IMG tag stolen from him)

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x36/philbur/g0554z.jpg

That's the one for $5k unless I have missed the B&W price somewhere.

Don't think the liability is an issue,that's taken care of by Grizz's insurance company that spreads the cost of others stupidity equally among us all.

Oh,that's nice Grizz take Paypal now.Now I can sell off all my old Amaracan arn on Ebay and buy new import with a few clicks of a mouse:D

Toolguy
09-16-2010, 12:54 PM
It seems funny to me how everyone is always grousing about the lack of old American iron and now that South Bend makes it available no one wants it.

Mcgyver
09-16-2010, 01:23 PM
It seems funny to me how everyone is always grousing about the lack of old American iron and now that South Bend makes it available no one wants it.

I think that’s the point, what’s there American about it? What's there South Bend about it?

i get how brands have value, and when you buy fashion or consumer product items a very big part of the purchase price is ascribed to the brand. In many, many cases its simply a royalty cheque cut to the owner of the brand who never touches the product....but it somehow feels wrong with a machine tool. Like someone’s try to trick you.

I think the reason is this; when someone buys a fashion brand they are looking for acceptance, to feel good about themselves. That’s why some handbags sell for thousands. It doesn't make sense to you and i, but that’s fashion and branding.

Machine tool purchases are different. The brand doesn't so much matter from a fashion sense; how i 'feel' about it, or how it will make me look. The brand matters more from the standpoint of trust in the quality, integrity and longevity of the machine. It doesn't feel entirely right to me be because the value of the Southbend brand, say quality, integrity and longevity, are qualities associated with the old firm and lathes.

What of this new firm is there that is connected with the old and therefore deserving of a claim on the legacy? The designers? Engineers? Foremen? Executive? Toolmakers? Molders? Machinists? Lathe hands? Q&A inspectors? Are any the same? Is it made in the same factory with the same parts, suppliers and design? Is the 'buck stops here’ guy the same? Does he have the same legacy values and beliefs in what’s being built? etc etc etc. There's nothing about this new offering that has any virtue in riding on Southbend's earned reputation for quality, integrity & longevity. I get how its legal and there's disclosure so i can't say its dishonest, still doesn't feel 100% right either.

lane
09-20-2010, 07:38 PM
Well I think I will keep my 10K I bought new in 1980.
They could dip that thing in 14 carat Gold and put diamond studs on it and this bunch would still bitch about it. The gold plate is not thick enough are why did they not put more diamond studs. It is what it is.