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aboard_epsilon
09-15-2010, 11:07 AM
Just had this door and frame made .wood is sapele. door is 1.5 inches thick....no editing software on this comp ..only the photobucket resize was used ..so warts and all.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/aboard_epsilon/P1010133.jpg

Was planning on hanging it on its longest side ..but just realised, I cant do this without hacking it about...seems unknown to me until now ..that if you hang on the longest side..the top triangle ..will want to crash into top style as its opened..

Now then ...i could chisel/ machine /sand part of the door away for clearance ..but will it just be a bit at the top on the other side ..or will it effect the whole door ..all the way down the slanted top style ..

I could go ahead and hang it ..once frame is in position ..and find out the hard way ...thought you guys may have come across something similar ..and stop me doing damage.

all the best.markj

Your Old Dog
09-15-2010, 11:58 AM
I expect you will have to relieve the entire top of the door but tapered from th4e furthest left and tapered more towards the top. If I were you, having such a nice door made, I think I'd do it in scrap first to see how it's going to fly. Glue some plywood up to the thickness of your door and go from there.

RussZHC
09-15-2010, 12:02 PM
You may want to try some cabinet type 170* hinges, they tend to "push" the door out and away from the frame a bit on opening and so may gain you some clearance.

Three issues: I don't know if you want to use them as they require those 32mm(IIRC) flat bottom holes, (b) given the thickness of the door, even with a reduction in weight due to the panels (as opposed to a solid constant thickness), the door maybe too heavy for those types of hinges, (c) you may be "forced" into something else from style or appearances that would not allow for that type of hinge (the smaller versions can be "hidden", or some can, but they are really meant for doors that are quite light...)

aboard_epsilon
09-15-2010, 12:02 PM
least you know what im going on about ..i posted this in a uk DIY forum ..and no one understands .. thick buggers . :rolleyes:

all the best.markj

Your Old Dog
09-15-2010, 12:10 PM
least you know what im going on about ..i posted this in a uk DIY forum ..and no one understands .. thick buggers . :rolleyes:

all the best.markj

I understand it because I've been there, done that and all ready had the "ah sh1t" moment! I try to make all my doors a very tight fit and end up having to plane (relieve) the back side of the closing edge. the nice thing is I was able to use neodyium sp magnets to act like bullet catches to hold them closed.

Paul Alciatore
09-15-2010, 12:24 PM
I don't know if any hardware would help.

You are right about the top edge jamming when it opens. It will be worst at the longest side and almost nill at the short side.

The general shape you need on the top edge is a conic one. Think of an inverted funnel: the top edge needs to be shapped like that with the axis of the fullel at the hinge point. You do not have to alter any of the other surfaces, but the rounding of the top will of course cut into the back face.

At the longest side, you will need to sand it almost to a point. You could probably get away with about a 1/8 to 1/4" radius, depending on how tight of a fit you have there. I would go ahead and put the hinges on and then test it carefully. Removable pin hinges will help. Rough sand a conic shape first. Then assemble it in the closed position and slowly open it to see where it catches. Remove it and sand more there. Repeat as needed.

2ManyHobbies
09-15-2010, 01:09 PM
You are right about the top edge jamming when it opens. It will be worst at the longest side and almost nill at the short side.

The general shape you need on the top edge is a conic one. Think of an inverted funnel: the top edge needs to be shapped like that with the axis of the fullel at the hinge point. You do not have to alter any of the other surfaces, but the rounding of the top will of course cut into the back face.

At the longest side, you will need to sand it almost to a point. You could probably get away with about a 1/8 to 1/4" radius, depending on how tight of a fit you have there. I would go ahead and put the hinges on and then test it carefully. Removable pin hinges will help. Rough sand a conic shape first. Then assemble it in the closed position and slowly open it to see where it catches. Remove it and sand more there. Repeat as needed.
My thoughts were along the lines of routing the top edge maybe as much as 3/8-1/2". You could get away with less if you had a slightly larger gap at the top edge of the jamb or if you set the hinges further into the frame.

If you can give us some numbers, we can probably tell you exactly how much to take and where. What is the angle between the long edge and the top edge? How thick is the door? How much will the hinge protrude beyond the door face? How much clearance are you planning between the top of the door and the top edge of the jamb?

aboard_epsilon
09-15-2010, 01:14 PM
Thanks for replies so far guys .
about 2mm clearance i was planning ..

am i right ..in saying... the further away down the top edge of the door from the hinges... the less the problem becomes.


all the best.markj

aboard_epsilon
09-15-2010, 01:18 PM
NUMBERS

Short edge of door 16.5 inches
long edge of door 37 inches
width of door 23 inches
thicknees 1.5 inches ..rebate the same but 1/2 inch wide

if the calcultions take far too much off ..will revert to hanging it from short side

all the best.markj

J. R. Williams
09-15-2010, 01:40 PM
Make a large scale drawing of the door and the hinge center and you will see what has to be removed for the door to function. As I recall it is about 5 deg.

JRW

kendall
09-15-2010, 02:06 PM
On one door I did build hinges that dropped the door to clear when opening, and lifted it back in when closing. Will need to dig through notebooks, but I may still have the drawings. (only about 60 notebooks in the attic!)

Essentially, the pin was mounted on parallels that let them swing out and down, held in place when closed by a spring loaded rod activated by the latch. When you operated the catch (also held door shut), the hinges would release and the whole door would drop down a 1/4 inch or so, after closing the door, you pressed on the hinge side to lift it back in place.
I'm sure if someone wanted to get creative, they could work out a design that would eliminate pressing on the hinge side, but that's what worked for my purpose at the time.

Key is the parallels need to have a stop so they don't lay horizontal, or you need to lift the door to latch the hinge side, if they stop somewhere around 45 degrees, simply pressing in will work.

aboard_epsilon
09-15-2010, 02:07 PM
I don't know if any hardware would help.

You are right about the top edge jamming when it opens. It will be worst at the longest side and almost nill at the short side.

The general shape you need on the top edge is a conic one. Think of an inverted funnel: the top edge needs to be shapped like that with the axis of the fullel at the hinge point. You do not have to alter any of the other surfaces, but the rounding of the top will of course cut into the back face.

At the longest side, you will need to sand it almost to a point. You could probably get away with about a 1/8 to 1/4" radius, depending on how tight of a fit you have there. I would go ahead and put the hinges on and then test it carefully. Removable pin hinges will help. Rough sand a conic shape first. Then assemble it in the closed position and slowly open it to see where it catches. Remove it and sand more there. Repeat as needed.

youre dead on there Paul :)

but think the way to do it is ..to have the door fully mounted up, and open at 90 degrees ..and then try and close it to see where it catches.

all the best.markj

aboard_epsilon
09-15-2010, 02:15 PM
On one door I did build hinges that dropped the door to clear when opening, and lifted it back in when closing. Will need to dig through notebooks, but I may still have the drawings. (only about 60 notebooks in the attic!)

Essentially, the pin was mounted on parallels that let them swing out and down, held in place when closed by a spring loaded rod activated by the latch. When you operated the catch (also held door shut), the hinges would release and the whole door would drop down a 1/4 inch or so, after closing the door, you pressed on the hinge side to lift it back in place.
I'm sure if someone wanted to get creative, they could work out a design that would eliminate pressing on the hinge side, but that's what worked for my purpose at the time.

Key is the parallels need to have a stop so they don't lay horizontal, or you need to lift the door to latch the hinge side, if they stop somewhere around 45 degrees, simply pressing in will work.

Yes i had already thought of that ..we have what are called "rise and fall" hinges here .......but they rise as the door is opened to clear thick carpet etc ..

upside down ..dont know if they would work ..and the clearance would have to be something like 1 inch....even though its tapering like paul said ..you then have to give it all right across.........meaning that i would have to put a large threshold on the door and take an inch off the bottom.

all the best.markj

mike os
09-15-2010, 03:16 PM
A perenial problem and easy enough to sort:- (even in the UK):D

Hang the door open & close it till it touches the frame.

mark where it touches on the inside of the door, & allow a little for clearance

now draw a line down the inside from the mark to the inside corner on the lower end.

on the top of the door draw a line about 10mm off the outside face

plane off the inside edge to the lines

rehang door & tweak if required.

laddy
09-15-2010, 04:16 PM
Bevel baby Bevel! You will have to bevel either the inside corner of the upper triangle or the inside corner of the frame it goes into for an easy slide. Should be un noticed if done carefully. use carbon paper to mark and cut back. Could be done slightly on both. The face reveal should remain the same. Just my opinion, probably wrong. Nice job on the door ! Fred

Barrington
09-15-2010, 04:35 PM
Here's the theoretical shape required, for the dimensions given (a 48.3 corner and 1.5" thick) - just to give an idea of how much would need to come off :-

http://i564.photobucket.com/albums/ss82/MrBarrington/door.png

From that point down the taper is pretty close to linear to a final value of 0.05" at the short side.

Rather a large gap at the corner with a 1/2" stop bead though ...

Cheers

.

whitis
09-15-2010, 04:40 PM
While a cone is ideal, a bevel which is inscribed (not circumscribed) in that cone or lower should do ok.

Looks like your angle is about 65 degrees +/- camera angle distortion.
Bevel the top edge of the door downward about 45 degrees. Bevel the top of the door frame to match (for a tight fit) and you should be ok. Actual angle, if viewed looking at the thickness of the door from the hinge side needs to be your ~65 degree angle or less. Some adjustment to the saw angle is needed because 65 degrees from that view and 65 along the path of the saw aren't the same. Err on the side of a steeper angle.

If it is a really tight fit, you may need a very slight bevel on the latch side of the door as well - which is why normal doors aren't fit so tight.

aboard_epsilon
09-15-2010, 05:03 PM
Here's the theoretical shape required, for the dimensions given (a 48.3 corner and 1.5" thick) - just to give an idea of how much would need to come off :-

http://i564.photobucket.com/albums/ss82/MrBarrington/door.png

From that point down the taper is pretty close to linear to a final value of 0.05" at the short side.

Rather a large gap at the corner with a 1/2" stop bead though ...

Cheers

.

great brilliant job ..hope its just the 2D of your drawing ..but looks a lot severe than i would have thought ..

here's a pic i just took of it with the door propped open and lined up ..with 2mm in the corner spare ..maybe its because the door is 1.25 inches not 1.5 as i originally just guessed at ...the other measurement are right that gave you ...i just remember asking the joiner for 1.5 inches ..he then planes it and calls it that ..forgot sorry

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/aboard_epsilon/P1010141.jpg

all the best.markj

aboard_epsilon
09-15-2010, 05:24 PM
btw ..its 40 degrees from the horizontal

all the best.markj

rohart
09-15-2010, 05:35 PM
So that's what rise and fall hinges are for. I thought they were so the doors shut on their own when you let them go.

Try envisioning this cone business as a series of circles or hoops lying horizontally, each with its centre on the axis of the two hinges. The sector of the circle that crosses the door where it would be when shut gives the curve you've got to get the door edge to.

Since each circle goes through the point on the outer door edge at the given height, and you know the radius at that point, a little trig will give you how far short of the inner door edge the circle cuts the door - ie how much needs to be taken off at that height. Do half a dozen spot heights, join the dots, and rasp.

So at the bottom of the slope where the door is widest, the sector of the circle represented by the thickness of the door is a narrow sector, just a couple of degrees. As the circle rises to the top, the sector becomes a larger part of the circle, till at the top the circle has zero radius, so the door theoretically must have zero thickness.

Just my way of looking at it. Hope it helps. Don't slam the door if it doesn't !

2ManyHobbies
09-15-2010, 06:32 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/aboard_epsilon/P1010141.jpg
Oh geeze. To keep from having to remove most of that corner you will need a cabinet hinge or some other style that will put the axis of rotation back in the wall or a moving axis of rotation.

Casement hinges?

I'm just thinking of ideas to kick the hinge side of the door out of the jamb. Even if only a little bit, it would reduce the amount of material you'd have to remove.

mike os
09-16-2010, 02:01 PM
Hell guys, lets make this complicated or what?

its a wooden door, not a high integrity bulkhead.

No complex drawings, curves or projections needed, 2 lines and a hand plane, 20 minutes & its fitted. (trust me I am a carpenter & joiner with nearly 30 years experience)

Rise & fall hinges will not work, they will make the problem worse, parliament hinges may help, but the projection from the door is unsightly and unnecessary.

Paul Alciatore
09-16-2010, 02:19 PM
youre dead on there Paul :)

but think the way to do it is ..to have the door fully mounted up, and open at 90 degrees ..and then try and close it to see where it catches.

all the best.markj

Yes, I can see from your picture that you are right. You could mark the angle on the back edge as shown in the picture and cut an angle off in a horizontal manner for a first cut. Then it will interfere further down. I would use a belt sander after that firs cut and just keep carving it down until it fits with what looks like proper clearance.

On the hinges, the further out from the wall that the center of rotation is, the less you will have to cut off. If the hinge pins were an infinite distance out, you wouldn't need to remove anything. So, I would look for plain hinges that stick out as far as I could find or stand the appearance of.

aboard_epsilon
09-16-2010, 02:31 PM
it's not as bad or extream as i thought ..
had to make a template to see what i was going to end up with

where it feathers out ..it stops touching .


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/aboard_epsilon/P1010152.jpg

all the best.markj

GKman
09-16-2010, 02:44 PM
For the top couple of inches, cut the top of the door off square and attach the cutoff to the frame. Plane the remainder.