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Al Messer
09-20-2010, 08:46 PM
Before I commit to buy one, is there very much of a nature that would be of interest to an amateur hobby machinist available on "Kindle"? TIA

ulav8r
09-20-2010, 09:27 PM
They can read pdf files and there are many of those that are of interest to the machinist or gunsmith. My wife and I have had ours for two weeks and we have not had much time to look into what is available.

dp
09-20-2010, 09:40 PM
It's a bit like playing cards where the faces have no color. It can be done but isn't something I'd want. Color is important. A fellow passenger on the bus has a newer Kindle and it's very thin, light weight, and looks like it belongs in a morgue. It is a pasty white that looks dead. When I first saw it I though it was a stick-on screen protector, but it was the book being read. It definitely reproduces the printed book but this is 2010 and books have more than 2 colors now :)

Mark Hockett
09-20-2010, 09:50 PM
I would look at the ipad. There is a Kindle app that lets you use your ipad as a Kindle, plus there are a bunch of machine shop apps such as these,

http://www.machinistblog.com/free-machinists-calculator-for-iphone-ipod-touch-and-ipad-users/

http://appshopper.com/business/machinist-apprentice-2010

http://appshopper.com/productivity/machinists-helper

http://ax.itunes.apple.com/us/app/machinist-journeyman/id353877863?mt=8&ign-impt=clickRef%3DSoftware%2520Page-US-Machinist%2520Journeyman-353877863-Lockup

There are more but you get the idea. There are also many other advantages to the ipad like email and internet access. My wife has a Kindle and likes it but it is very limited. My wife and I both have iphones, which have similar capabilities to the ipad. Theres even a Kindle app for the iphone.

macona
09-20-2010, 10:03 PM
With the iphone having almost the same resolution as the ipad (Ipad 1024x768 vs iphone 960x640) I would get that if you have good eyesight. With the free iBooks app you can save pdf's from the web to the phone or upload them when you sync to your computer. Works great for me. I can keep manuals and datasheets on hand for projects I am working on. And with the high res of the display even tiny, tiny text is legible.

Plus you get all the other goodies like a really nice camera/video camera.

loose nut
09-20-2010, 11:13 PM
I have the latest Sony Reader, great for reading novels but these E-book readers are lousy at anything with a bigger page format. They are either to small or you have to scroll the page up and down and side top side to read a page.

Bruce Griffing
09-20-2010, 11:23 PM
My wife loves hers. It is very light, uses very little power so it goes a long way between charges and is easy to read. She reads the newspaper (WSJ) daily and uses it for books when she travels. She reads real books at home - where the weight is not an issue.

bobw53
09-21-2010, 12:20 AM
It definitely reproduces the printed book but this is 2010 and books have more than 2 colors now :)

Isn't the whole point of the Kindle and all that crap supposed to be reading books? I haven't read a book with more than 2 colors since Curious George and the man in the Yellow Hat. Heck, even the early "Harold and the Purple Crayon" only had 3 colors.

Its not what's on the screen, its whats in the words. I think I was about 8 years old the last time I was upset that I didn't get a full color picture on a page. Though I do miss the pop up books. Show me a maxI-PAD that can do that and I'll be impressed.

My girlfriend just got one of those Nook things at Barnes and Noble. She's loving it. She uses it to read books, those things that are black writing on white pages, so the monochrome screen is perfectly fine.

DFMiller
09-21-2010, 12:34 AM
Another vote for Ipad with Kindle app. The full colour of the Ipad make reading the glossy magazines so nice.
Dave

Tony Ennis
09-21-2010, 12:36 AM
B&N's Nook looks good too. And has color.

dp
09-21-2010, 01:22 AM
Isn't the whole point of the Kindle and all that crap supposed to be reading books? I haven't read a book with more than 2 colors since Curious George and the man in the Yellow Hat. Heck, even the early "Harold and the Purple Crayon" only had 3 colors.



We read different books.

Kindle
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs11/f/2006/227/e/2/street_photography_for_the_purist.pdf


Everyone else
http://oreilly.com/catalog/dphotohdbk/chapter/ch03.pdf
http://photonaturalist.net/how-to-photograph-dragonflies-free-ebook/
http://www.photocourse.com/download/Textbook-of-Digital-Photography-samples.pdf

Too_Many_Tools
09-21-2010, 01:23 AM
Not to be a Luddite but it would seem that these readers are a solution looking for a problem.

And a manufacturer looking for a sale.

I know that any material I might want to look at is available on paper.

That can not be said for anything that uses electronics.

It might surprise some but the vast majority of knowledge is NOT in electronic form...and likely never will be.

I have an extensive library of old machining books..and the vast majority of them will never be in electronic form.

TMT

whitis
09-21-2010, 01:51 AM
You pay near full price for a kindle book but it is loaded with DRM and you don't own it like you do with a paper book.

You are limited in how many devices (kindle, iphone, desktop, new kindle, etc) you can download a book you have purchased to. Sometimes it might be half a dozen devices, other times only 1.
http://www.geardiary.com/2009/06/19/kindles-drm-rears-its-ugly-head-and-it-is-ugly/

You can't sell or give away the books you paid for.

When your kindle breaks, you not only lose an expensive piece of hardware, you may lose a library. It is a portable device, expect it to break. When it is time to upgrade, same thing. You may lose your library if you upgrade to another brand or even a newer kindle. I have books I have owned for 40 years and I have books which are over 100 years old. Think your kindle will still be functioning in 100 years? 40? 10? 5?

Amazon has deleted books users already paid for from their kindle because there was some copyright issue upstream. Very orwellian. Ironically, The books were Animal Farm and 1984. They did refund the purchase price, but the notes and annotations made by the users were unusable without the original file. Got Sued. Lost.

It will display PDFs but PDFs aren't formatted to fit on the tiny screen. Though this can be a problem with other portable devices, at least with other devices they have real grayscale so they can display scanned pages.

No color.

No video.

No real applications, though they have made a SDK available. No touch screen, a marginal keyboard, and a marginal display limit its usefulness for apps.


Never buy a book which is DRMed. And kindle is basically a platform for DRMed books. If you support the publishers using the format, they will think they can get away with this and not offer real alternatives.

It is one more piece of limited functionality electronics gear to lug around. It doesn't do GPS, you can't make phone calls, you can't watch TV, you can't watch video files, you can't play DVDs, you can't take pictures, and you can't run real apps. It can play MP3 files but apparently not Ogg Vorbis or FLAC.

It is one more piece of e-waste.

Consider a netbook, PDA, laptop, or software unlocked smartphone instead. Somewhat less crippled.

There are hundreds of old machining books available for free download. No CNC, EDM, waterjet, or laser cutting. But other than those technologies, machining hasn't changed that much in a century. Alloys have changed. A bunch of thread sizes have been eliminated. The 20th century saw the rise to prominance of the vertical mill. And carbide. Electronic Readout measuring instruments. Hydraulic tracer machines came and went. I have a bunch of old books (hardcopy and electronic), some of which I refer to regularly. I have a lathe built in the late 1880s and I spent the weekend looking at a bunch of century old machine tools. Tools that were originally steam/lineshaft powered and retrofitted for electric. Some of these were probably used in a professional machine shop right up until 1995 when the shop owner died; I know they were being used daily in 1968. So, while outdated in some significant respects, the old books can still be surprisingly relevant.

Mark Hockett
09-21-2010, 03:19 AM
Owning a Kindle, ipad, or iphone doesnít mean you can no longer purchase paper books, itís just a convenient way to have books that you want to read for entertainment. I have a huge library of reference books for machining and many other hobbies, but I am not going to carry those around with me. Most books that are read on an electronic device are probably for entertainment and will only be read once, even though they are stored and can be accessed again and again. With my iphone I have access to thousands of books at the touch of a finger. I can also watch movies on Netflix, take pictures or video with the camera, use the GPS to find a destination, check email, access this forum or the internet, listen to the radio, play a game of Scrabble, check the tides, scan a bar code and find the best price, scan a document and turn it into a PDF, determine the value of a vehicle with Kelly Blue Book, map the stars in the sky, listen to songs on the ipod, look up just about any common machine shop formula, and make a phone call if needed and it fits in my pocket. The phone even has a Compass, level, flashlight, calculator, unit converter and alarm clock. My list doesn't even scratch the surface of what you can do with an iphone or ipad. The android phone is just as capable.

Circlip
09-21-2010, 03:58 AM
Wife has a Sony reader. At the moment it's holding about 350 books, much lighter to take on holiday rather than a seperate bag to contain a couple of dozen. I-pad? yep, about six times the price of a Kindle. As a comparison, Why do so many complain about Bill Gates industries and praise the Apple rip off teqnowlegy?

Regards Ian.

Doc Nickel
09-21-2010, 04:22 AM
When your kindle breaks, you not only lose an expensive piece of hardware, you may lose a library. It is a portable device, expect it to break. When it is time to upgrade, same thing. You may lose your library if you upgrade to another brand or even a newer kindle. I have books I have owned for 40 years and I have books which are over 100 years old. Think your kindle will still be functioning in 100 years? 40? 10? 5?

-And that's the key right there.

E-readers are great for 'throwaway' media- newspapers, trashy novels, pop-culture stories, anything by Piers Antony... :D

But the life cycle of these devices is ludicrously short compared to even modern books. The Kindle came out just a couple of years ago, and it's already on it's third (or possibly fourth) version.

And note that, apart from common formats like PDF, Kindle files can't be read on a Nook and vice-versa. Personally, I'd rather not wind up with a library of this generation's Beta cassettes. :)

Don't get me wrong- I love the idea of E-readers and portable formats, and I'd love to have an iPad.

But as quoted above, I have books I bought decades ago, and I own books that went out of print sixty years ago. I have, as I'm sure most of you do, an eclectic collection of machining and similar books- the bulk of mine were printed in the 50's and 60's, with a few- like my Machinery's Handbook- dating back to the forties.

I got that copy of Handbook from my Grandfather- anybody think they're going to hand down an heirloom Handbook CD to their grandkid in thirty years? If the disc's even physically playable at that point, will the kid still be able to buy a device to play it on?

And before you answer that, consider that we're three generations past CDs already (DVD, DVD-HD, Blu-Ray) then then look around for some 3.5" floppies, or a Zip Disc, or a Superdisk. Or a Laser Disc. Or a MiniDisc.

Bottom line, as above, the readers are great for essentially "disposable" media. Pay your fifty cents for a copy of today's newspaper, or 99 cents for the latest installment of some crappy Mack Bolan potboiler, and who cares if you don't own a physical copy. Let 'em DRM that stuff, because there's no reason to save it, and the lifespan is far shorter than the expected life of the reader device.

But I wouldn't even consider paying for any book I'd want to keep- unless it's in an open, common format like PDF. If the paid copy is tied to the device that bought it, I'm not allowed to transfer, save or back it up- or even move it to or redownload to, a new version of the same machine, no thanks.

Doc.

macona
09-21-2010, 04:43 AM
N
It might surprise some but the vast majority of knowledge is NOT in electronic form...and likely never will be.

I have an extensive library of old machining books..and the vast majority of them will never be in electronic form.

TMT


There is currently more information in digital form than written, so said the Library of Congress a few years ago. And thanks to Google, Archive.org, Project Gutenberg, and the LOC, more old stuff is constantly added.

lazlo
09-21-2010, 09:38 AM
When your kindle breaks, you not only lose an expensive piece of hardware, you may lose a library.

You don't lose the library on any e-Reader. Kindle syncs your library with your account on Amazon, Sony's syncs with the host PC.

I also prefer paper copies, even on technical specs. Something about holding a piece of paper in your hand...

BigBoy1
09-21-2010, 10:09 AM
Not to be a Luddite but it would seem that these readers are a solution looking for a problem.

And a manufacturer looking for a sale.

I know that any material I might want to look at is available on paper.

That can not be said for anything that uses electronics.

It might surprise some but the vast majority of knowledge is NOT in electronic form...and likely never will be.

I have an extensive library of old machining books..and the vast majority of them will never be in electronic form.

TMT

TMT,

I'm with you 100%. Spending over $100 for a device which has books on it doesn't make any sense to me. Use that money to buy the book with printed pages because a book doesn't need batteries to function and will not become "obsolete" in 5 years. I'm with you as the types of books I read will probably never be put into an electronic format. I don't own a cell phone, Ipod, etc. and will never own one. I enjoy being "out of touch" and have no desire to have people contacting me any time they want. Call and leave a message on my answering machine and I'll get back to you at my leasure.

cuemaker
09-21-2010, 10:32 AM
I paid $99 for my sony e reader, wife paid a bit more for hers (150?)...

She has purchased in the last few years probably 250-300 books in the last few years. Me, maybe 100. They are all saved on our computer and can be redownloaded from Sony at need.

Why we did it. We (kids too) would all troop off to the book store (35min drive) about one a month, buy about a months worth of books (5-15) spend at least $100, sometimes closer to $200...Since we were in town, might as well get dinner etc.

We do not have a convient book store. It makes a lot of sense for us. We are able to target the books we want from specific authors. Sometimes the ebook are more epensive, sometimes they are dirt cheap if your willing to read the older stuff...

HighWall
09-21-2010, 12:22 PM
TMT,

I'm with you 100%. Spending over $100 for a device which has books on it doesn't make any sense to me. Use that money to buy the book with printed pages because a book doesn't need batteries to function and will not become "obsolete" in 5 years. I'm with you as the types of books I read will probably never be put into an electronic format. I don't own a cell phone, Ipod, etc. and will never own one. I enjoy being "out of touch" and have no desire to have people contacting me any time they want. Call and leave a message on my answering machine and I'll get back to you at my leasure.

I read all the time. I have a Kindle and have found I read faster and with better comprehension using it. I can control the font size and line spacing with it and never lose my place. I currently have over 5000 pages downloaded to my device, which is great for the traveler. I have found it a very useful. It won't replace paper books, but for recreational reading, it's hard to beat. There are a number of sites where you can acquire free books in the correct format and Amazon archives all the materials you purchase from them. I can back up the books folder on my PC as well. I understand there are book clubs people have formed to share files. I really like mine.

Too_Many_Tools
09-21-2010, 12:44 PM
Owning a Kindle, ipad, or iphone doesnít mean you can no longer purchase paper books, itís just a convenient way to have books that you want to read for entertainment. I have a huge library of reference books for machining and many other hobbies, but I am not going to carry those around with me. Most books that are read on an electronic device are probably for entertainment and will only be read once, even though they are stored and can be accessed again and again. With my iphone I have access to thousands of books at the touch of a finger. I can also watch movies on Netflix, take pictures or video with the camera, use the GPS to find a destination, check email, access this forum or the internet, listen to the radio, play a game of Scrabble, check the tides, scan a bar code and find the best price, scan a document and turn it into a PDF, determine the value of a vehicle with Kelly Blue Book, map the stars in the sky, listen to songs on the ipod, look up just about any common machine shop formula, and make a phone call if needed and it fits in my pocket. The phone even has a Compass, level, flashlight, calculator, unit converter and alarm clock. My list doesn't even scratch the surface of what you can do with an iphone or ipad. The android phone is just as capable.


All on a pitifully tiny screen with a marginally capable keyboard.

Portability comes at a significant price...a very heavy price in my opinion.

And all that internet capable phones can access at an expensive cost can be done for free at the local library.

I can understand the lure of having the latest gadget but as I have seen over and over again, it comes at a heavy cost.

In my world, I can use that extra money to buy many more books that will never be seen in an electronic form.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-21-2010, 12:48 PM
You pay near full price for a kindle book but it is loaded with DRM and you don't own it like you do with a paper book.

You are limited in how many devices (kindle, iphone, desktop, new kindle, etc) you can download a book you have purchased to. Sometimes it might be half a dozen devices, other times only 1.
http://www.geardiary.com/2009/06/19/kindles-drm-rears-its-ugly-head-and-it-is-ugly/

You can't sell or give away the books you paid for.

When your kindle breaks, you not only lose an expensive piece of hardware, you may lose a library. It is a portable device, expect it to break. When it is time to upgrade, same thing. You may lose your library if you upgrade to another brand or even a newer kindle. I have books I have owned for 40 years and I have books which are over 100 years old. Think your kindle will still be functioning in 100 years? 40? 10? 5?

Amazon has deleted books users already paid for from their kindle because there was some copyright issue upstream. Very orwellian. Ironically, The books were Animal Farm and 1984. They did refund the purchase price, but the notes and annotations made by the users were unusable without the original file. Got Sued. Lost.

It will display PDFs but PDFs aren't formatted to fit on the tiny screen. Though this can be a problem with other portable devices, at least with other devices they have real grayscale so they can display scanned pages.

No color.

No video.

No real applications, though they have made a SDK available. No touch screen, a marginal keyboard, and a marginal display limit its usefulness for apps.


Never buy a book which is DRMed. And kindle is basically a platform for DRMed books. If you support the publishers using the format, they will think they can get away with this and not offer real alternatives.

It is one more piece of limited functionality electronics gear to lug around. It doesn't do GPS, you can't make phone calls, you can't watch TV, you can't watch video files, you can't play DVDs, you can't take pictures, and you can't run real apps. It can play MP3 files but apparently not Ogg Vorbis or FLAC.

It is one more piece of e-waste.

Consider a netbook, PDA, laptop, or software unlocked smartphone instead. Somewhat less crippled.

There are hundreds of old machining books available for free download. No CNC, EDM, waterjet, or laser cutting. But other than those technologies, machining hasn't changed that much in a century. Alloys have changed. A bunch of thread sizes have been eliminated. The 20th century saw the rise to prominance of the vertical mill. And carbide. Electronic Readout measuring instruments. Hydraulic tracer machines came and went. I have a bunch of old books (hardcopy and electronic), some of which I refer to regularly. I have a lathe built in the late 1880s and I spent the weekend looking at a bunch of century old machine tools. Tools that were originally steam/lineshaft powered and retrofitted for electric. Some of these were probably used in a professional machine shop right up until 1995 when the shop owner died; I know they were being used daily in 1968. So, while outdated in some significant respects, the old books can still be surprisingly relevant.

Well said.

The bulk of info that HSM hobbyists would use will not be available in an electronic form.

An example...anyone have an electronic library of HSM magazine back issues that they can access electronically?

TMT

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-21-2010, 12:53 PM
Isn't the whole point of the Kindle and all that crap supposed to be reading books?

Actually no.

The whole point of the electronic readers and all that crap is to lower the production cost of creating books so there is a larger profit margin for publishers.

They are trying to significanly reduce the cost of producing books at the cost of those who read them and then pocket the money saved for themselves.

One of the side effects that many books with low readership (books like those who deal with machining come to mind) will become far too expensive to make short production runs for.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-21-2010, 01:02 PM
There is currently more information in digital form than written, so said the Library of Congress a few years ago. And thanks to Google, Archive.org, Project Gutenberg, and the LOC, more old stuff is constantly added.

No there is not...not the infomation that this group would care about.

You are referring to all the popular wordsmithing that is occurring since the early 90's...like the sentence that I am currently typing..that did not exist before.

What I am referring to is technical data that was created before the advent of computers becoming available to the common public.

Try pulling up technical info available prior to the 90's and see how much you actually find...there is very little.

That is why all those initiatives that you mention are in existence...and they are slowly adding info...but it is like trying to empty the ocean with a teaspoon.

And as I mentioned earlier, do you have an electronic version of the back issues of HSM magazine available on any electronic device?

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-21-2010, 01:08 PM
I read all the time. I have a Kindle and have found I read faster and with better comprehension using it. I can control the font size and line spacing with it and never lose my place. I currently have over 5000 pages downloaded to my device, which is great for the traveler. I have found it a very useful. It won't replace paper books, but for recreational reading, it's hard to beat. There are a number of sites where you can acquire free books in the correct format and Amazon archives all the materials you purchase from them. I can back up the books folder on my PC as well. I understand there are book clubs people have formed to share files. I really like mine.


I can see how the electronic readers are meant to support recreational reading. My reading efforts are almost all technical in nature and the times where I do recreationally read I can check a book out from the library.

Different needs mean different approaches.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-21-2010, 01:10 PM
-And that's the key right there.

E-readers are great for 'throwaway' media- newspapers, trashy novels, pop-culture stories, anything by Piers Antony... :D

But the life cycle of these devices is ludicrously short compared to even modern books. The Kindle came out just a couple of years ago, and it's already on it's third (or possibly fourth) version.

And note that, apart from common formats like PDF, Kindle files can't be read on a Nook and vice-versa. Personally, I'd rather not wind up with a library of this generation's Beta cassettes. :)

Don't get me wrong- I love the idea of E-readers and portable formats, and I'd love to have an iPad.

But as quoted above, I have books I bought decades ago, and I own books that went out of print sixty years ago. I have, as I'm sure most of you do, an eclectic collection of machining and similar books- the bulk of mine were printed in the 50's and 60's, with a few- like my Machinery's Handbook- dating back to the forties.

I got that copy of Handbook from my Grandfather- anybody think they're going to hand down an heirloom Handbook CD to their grandkid in thirty years? If the disc's even physically playable at that point, will the kid still be able to buy a device to play it on?

And before you answer that, consider that we're three generations past CDs already (DVD, DVD-HD, Blu-Ray) then then look around for some 3.5" floppies, or a Zip Disc, or a Superdisk. Or a Laser Disc. Or a MiniDisc.

Bottom line, as above, the readers are great for essentially "disposable" media. Pay your fifty cents for a copy of today's newspaper, or 99 cents for the latest installment of some crappy Mack Bolan potboiler, and who cares if you don't own a physical copy. Let 'em DRM that stuff, because there's no reason to save it, and the lifespan is far shorter than the expected life of the reader device.

But I wouldn't even consider paying for any book I'd want to keep- unless it's in an open, common format like PDF. If the paid copy is tied to the device that bought it, I'm not allowed to transfer, save or back it up- or even move it to or redownload to, a new version of the same machine, no thanks.

Doc.

Well said..especially with the different media comments.

Technology does not age well.

TMT

Al Messer
09-21-2010, 01:17 PM
"There are hundreds of old machining books available for free download."


WHERE??

Al

Too_Many_Tools
09-21-2010, 01:23 PM
"There are hundreds of old machining books available for free download."


WHERE??

Al

Good question.

A listing of all those hundreds of old machining books available for free download should be a sticky for this site.

TMT

EddyCurr
09-21-2010, 02:32 PM
I chose a Sony Touch (PRS-600) over the Kindle.

I also subsequently purchased an iPad (3G & 64 MB) for use by family
members. While I don't like or use the iPad, the family love it and
have had a lot of utility out of it, particularly during some extended
travel.

.

Doc Nickel
09-21-2010, 03:26 PM
"There are hundreds of old machining books available for free download."

WHERE??

Here (http://books.google.com/). Just type an inquiry into the search bar and start looking.

"Machinist (http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1&q=machinist&btnG=Search+Books)".

"Machine shop (http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1&q=machinist&btnG=Search+Books#sclient=psy&hl=en&tbo=1&tbs=bks%3A1&source=hp&q=machine+shop&aq=f&aqi=g3&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=6f32b8af52b7e0b8)".
"Metal lathe (http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1&q=machinist&btnG=Search+Books#sclient=psy&hl=en&tbo=1&tbs=bks%3A1&q=metal+lathe&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=a5888f582d087f97)".

And so on. Some books are still under copyright, and so there's a nominal cost to download. Others have fallen out of copyright and are therefore free.

One of the first ones I downloaded was Brown & Sharpe's Practical Treatise on Milling and Milling Machines (http://books.google.com/books?id=x8JKAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA2&dq=%22brown+%26+sharpe%22+practical&hl=en&ei=ugOZTOHeO4bQsAOMkcmWDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false), circa 1913. It's almost a 'catalog' for B&S machines, but also chock-full of interesting setups, fixtures and attachments. Mostly for old horizontal machines, of course, but there's still a wealth of ideas in there.

I had the local copy shop print it out double-sided, and spiral-bind it. It came out so nice that I have another dozen or two downloads that I plan on having printed the same way.

Doc.

Mark Hockett
09-21-2010, 03:39 PM
"There are hundreds of old machining books available for free download."


WHERE??

Al

Here's a few,

http://www.craftsmanspace.com/free-books/

http://www.archive.org/details/starrettbookform00fairrich

http://www.edocfind.com/en/ebook/machinist%20Handbook-1.html

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22Machine-shop%20practice%22


There is an endless list, Google is your friend.

Al Messer
09-21-2010, 07:12 PM
Here's a few,

http://www.craftsmanspace.com/free-books/

http://www.archive.org/details/starrettbookform00fairrich

http://www.edocfind.com/en/ebook/machinist%20Handbook-1.html

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22Machine-shop%20practice%22


There is an endless list, Google is your friend.


Many, many thanks!! This list is GREAT!!

Al

bobw53
09-21-2010, 07:33 PM
Actually no.

The whole point of the electronic readers and all that crap is to lower the production cost of creating books so there is a larger profit margin for publishers.

They are trying to significanly reduce the cost of producing books at the cost of those who read them and then pocket the money saved for themselves.

One of the side effects that many books with low readership (books like those who deal with machining come to mind) will become far too expensive to make short production runs for.

TMT

You sir are pretty darn smart. When the girlfriend got one, I was wondering how much the books were going to cost, and they aren't significantly cheaper than buying a new book.

She wanted it so she wouldn't have to go to the bookstore as much, and we have probably the worlds best used book store here, 2 massive locations and an entire warehouse. She reads way too damn fast, really fast, she'll plow through a 400 page book in an hour and a half.

loose nut
09-21-2010, 07:45 PM
For all of you who don't think the e-book readers are a good idea, well to bad. The printed page is going to vanish.

It will cost to much to print ship and maintain store fronts, 10, 20 ,30 years who knows but new books will be electronic, like it or not. I have lots of printed books and I never get rid of any but sooner or later they will crumble to dust, digital books are forever and if the current tech. becomes obsolete they can be converted to a new format and still be read. It's kinda hard to read dust.

For all of you that like e-book readers don't worry about buying one that can show the most formats. Calibre is a free translation program that will convert just about any format into any other format so they can be used on all of the different readers. My Sony reader will only show PDF, EPUB or Word DOCS. but I can read any book available after translation.

As to the cost of a reader, I have over 4000 novels on my computer, more than I could ever read, free. At ten bucks a pop for a book that makes the cost of a reader very cheap. Many authors put some or all of there books on the web for downloading and there are many up and coming writers that put there novels out there to get some circulation and many are very good. There are also older books that have gone into public domain. If that isn't enough for you then just download what ever you want cause it's out there.

Have a nice day.

john hobdeclipe
09-21-2010, 07:47 PM
I sit down in my comfortable chair with a good book and a glass of wine. I read a bit, get sleepy, nod off, then fall asleep completely. The book slides off my lap onto the floor and I lose my place. No problem.

I sit down in my comfortable chair with an electronic "book" and a glass of wine. I read a bit, get sleepy, nod off, then fall asleep completely. The "book" slides off my lap onto the floor and breaks. Bits, bytes, electrons and digits ooze out and ruin the carpet. I lose my place. I lose a lot of money. Cripes, what a mess.

lazlo
09-21-2010, 07:50 PM
For all of you who don't think the e-book readers are a good idea, well to bad. The printed page is going to vanish.

I sincerely doubt that, and I'm hardly a Luddite.

Do you remember in the 80's when personal computers started to become mainstream, and all the pundits said it was the death of paper? If I had a dime for every "Paperless Office" article...

The Office of the Future (http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/may2008/tc20080526_547942.htm)
An in-depth analysis of how word processing will reshape the corporate office

Editor's Note: This article originally appeared in the June 30, 1975, issue of BusinessWeek.

THE PAPERLESS OFFICE

Some believe that the paperless office is not that far off. Vincent E. Giuliano of Arthur D. Little, Inc., figures that the use of paper in business for records and correspondence should be declining by 1980, "and by 1990, most record-handling will be electronic."

garyphansen
09-21-2010, 08:41 PM
Has anyone here used the kindle to read to them? I would like to know how well it works. Is it a feature worth having or is it not worth listening to. Gary P. Hansen

Al Messer
09-21-2010, 09:03 PM
O.K. Lots of technical books out there, BUT, are any of them devoted to Model Engineering? Are the long ago printed issues of Model Engineer (bi-weekly British publication), or Austrailan ME and related publications available as downloads?

gmatov
09-21-2010, 11:20 PM
Doc Nickle,

You don't like Piers Anthony or Mack Bolan either? Wow. You got some sense of taste, if you do not.

I don't like 90% of the authors, today. Nothing is under 500 pages. Most of it is not germane to the story, just blather.

I have, probably, 10 thou books, back some 40 to 50 years, and have read all but maybe 500, and they are in the 2 6 foot bookcases in the DR. They WILL be read. I have probably been unable to finish 3 books in my life. One was by the Irish author who wrote his entire book in one unpunctuated paragraph, and I wish I could remember who that was.

I am omnivorous as to reading. Everything on paper is interesting. I won't buy a Kindle style reader. I like paper. I stick a slip between pages when I fall asleep, don't have to reboot and find my place.

One daughter insists she needs one, probably has bought one, by now.

As to more info on the Web than on paper, if you include claptrap, as TMT says, that is probably true, but then, the poster says more books are being digitized by the day.

I do not consider what we type hers as all that much addition to human knowledge. WE are claptrap. Little that we type is going to add to the knowledge base. WIKI, anyone?

Cheers,

George

dp
09-22-2010, 12:26 AM
Has anyone here used the kindle to read to them? I would like to know how well it works. Is it a feature worth having or is it not worth listening to. Gary P. Hansen

I read the one I saw for most of a 20 minute bus ride through varying lighting and a typically bumpy city bus. It was quite easy to read and the pages are as good or better than a book. No glare and no typesetting issues. I actually don't have a problem with the reading quality of the thing - just the missing features.

bobw53
09-22-2010, 12:42 AM
I am omnivorous as to reading. Everything on paper is interesting. I won't buy a Kindle style reader. I like paper. I stick a slip between pages when I fall asleep, don't have to reboot and find my place.

When I fall asleep, the book falls on my face if I'm lucky and I'll wake up later with it still there. If I'm not lucky and flippin' and floppin' while sleeping it ends up somewhere, on the floor, across the room, wedged between the head board and the mattress, place lost. If I'm really not lucky, my glasses end up in the same place.

From what the girlfriend said, if you fall asleep or just put it down, it keeps your place.

Bookmark makers are shutting down everyday.

tmc_31
09-22-2010, 01:36 AM
Well said.

The bulk of info that HSM hobbyists would use will not be available in an electronic form.

An example...anyone have an electronic library of HSM magazine back issues that they can access electronically?

TMT

TMT,

I am a member of the Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA), have been since about 1990. Several years ago (around 2003 I think) I was at their convention in Oshkosh Wi where they (EAA) were offering the all of the back issues of "Sport Aviation" since 1953 or so in PDF format on CD. I think it cost around $200.00. I bought a set and have found it to be invaluable for researching previous articles. A very well spent $200 bucks. Part of it's usefulness is it's search engine.

I wouldn't be surprised if HSM didn't offer something similar at some point. If they do, I will be one of the first in line to buy it.

"garyphansen Has anyone here used the kindle to read to them? I would like to know how well it works. Is it a feature worth having or is it not worth listening to. Gary P. Hansen"

Gary,

I am re-reading Survival at Starvation Lake on my wife's new Kindle. I find it very easy to read. I read in bed a lot, late into the night and the Kindle is easier to hold than a paper book.

It occurred to me that if Amazon would come up with a small thumb controlled remote for the Kindle and a holder that would clip to the head board it would be a real pleasure to use:D

Pete F
09-22-2010, 01:52 AM
I am re-reading Survival at Starvation Lake on my wife's new Kindle.

Re-reading?!? Already? Wow, that says a lot about that book. I haven't had much time for reading novels lately, but that's gonna put it pretty high on the list when I do.

BTW, I think Gary is asking about the Text-To-Speech feature, where the kindle reads aloud to you.

-Pete

Circlip
09-22-2010, 04:30 AM
O.K. Lots of technical books out there, BUT, are any of them devoted to Model Engineering? Are the long ago printed issues of Model Engineer (bi-weekly British publication), or Austrailan ME and related publications available as downloads?


Despite numerous requests to the editor of M/E and MEW to supply DVDs of the archived editions of the mags, there is a yearly "Subscription" service to allow access to all the MEWs and some of the M/Es. At this point in time there are no official downloads for these mags, but I've noticed that the two K.N.Harris steam bibles are electronically available as freebies.(Tut Tut)

One small (???) problem with keeping paper original copies is the physical space required to store them. 170 copies of MEW needs more than 3 feet, 1 DVD needs ?? In another life (pre home compewters and scanning) I gave a 2Ft. pile of "Model Maker" to some one whom I knew would take great pride in ownership. Sadley, his eventual divorce meant that in thinning down his possessions, these ended down the dump. How many years of other gems have had the same fate?

It's a toil doing it, but unless we as individuals take the initiative vast tracts of info are going to dissappear, we cant rely on the publishers.

Regards Ian.

BigBoy1
09-22-2010, 08:59 AM
For all of you who don't think the e-book readers are a good idea, well to bad. The printed page is going to vanish.

If the printed page vanishes, how are we going to be able to "read" old documents? With the way manufacturers "upgrade" the systems to make people have to purchase the "newer, improved" (more expensive) system, how are we going to be able to read documents that were produced on the older systems?

For example, how are we going to be able to access and read documents produced on the Wang Office Systems? I'm sure many of today's computers will readly accept and are totally compatable with the 8" floppy discs used by the Wang? We'll just whip that data right off those 8" floppies and have the data right on the screen in a usable format in nothing flat.

If you don't think this is problem, how many of you have a Beta Video tapes and player? What about VHS viseo tapes and player? Soon the Blue-Ray will overtake the DVD and soon all that data will be unretrevable.

Several years ago there was an article in Scientific American Magazine about this problem of data storage and retrival. The examined all of the media used, from stone tablets to the latest electronic devices and the conclusion they came to that acid-free paper was the best method of data storage. Electronic systems change so rapidly, that in a few years, data stored on a certain type of system would be totally unretrival because the systems have been "improved" over the years.

Rustybolt
09-22-2010, 09:15 AM
Anything. ANYTHING. That gets people to read is a good thing. When you consider that most people only read four books a year.

tmc_31
09-22-2010, 09:17 AM
BTW, I think Gary is asking about the Text-To-Speech feature, where the kindle reads aloud to you.

-Pete

Pete/Gary,

I have tried this text to voice feature and it leaves something to be desired. The voice has little inflection. It might be ok once you get used to it and will be handy in the car on long trips. My wife has an Audible account (books that can be downloaded to a Iphone or Ipod). These are read aloud by real people and generally are a pleasure to listen to. When we go on long trips we will usually take a couple of Audible books with us. We will also be taking the Kindle.

Tim

hazmat
09-22-2010, 09:28 AM
I have a kindle (2nd to newest generation, smaller format) - I generally read non-fiction. I find the selection of non-fiction books lacking for the kindle. I bought it to reduce clutter - I usually get books from the library, but if they don't have it, next choice is kindle, then purchasing a real paper book.

I have found that the more technical publications are present some difficulties on the smaller screen - figures aren't on the same page as the related text etc.

Of the last 10 books I've bought from amazon, 2 or 3 have been in kindle format. In the same timespan, I've checked out dozens from the library.

Too_Many_Tools
09-22-2010, 11:53 AM
If the printed page vanishes, how are we going to be able to "read" old documents? With the way manufacturers "upgrade" the systems to make people have to purchase the "newer, improved" (more expensive) system, how are we going to be able to read documents that were produced on the older systems?

For example, how are we going to be able to access and read documents produced on the Wang Office Systems? I'm sure many of today's computers will readly accept and are totally compatable with the 8" floppy discs used by the Wang? We'll just whip that data right off those 8" floppies and have the data right on the screen in a usable format in nothing flat.

If you don't think this is problem, how many of you have a Beta Video tapes and player? What about VHS viseo tapes and player? Soon the Blue-Ray will overtake the DVD and soon all that data will be unretrevable.

Several years ago there was an article in Scientific American Magazine about this problem of data storage and retrival. The examined all of the media used, from stone tablets to the latest electronic devices and the conclusion they came to that acid-free paper was the best method of data storage. Electronic systems change so rapidly, that in a few years, data stored on a certain type of system would be totally unretrival because the systems have been "improved" over the years.


You have bought up THE major issue with electronic data where the electronic readers will be the major culprits.

Those who push new technology are not required to guarantee the compatibility with previous formats. Even within the same company and product, reverse compatibility is seldom present (ex. Microscoft Word). Notice those who are pushing the new technology have mentioned PDF files...what about the hundreds of other file formats..not to mention data storage media types. This problem is a MAJOR, MAJOR one in industry...and their solution is to ignore it and move on...leaving the data behind. Many products have needed to be redesigned because key infomation has been unretrievable...because the media could not be read.

As I have mentioned earlier, I understand the lure of having the electronic readers and their benefits...but it is coming at a very high cost to the bulk of existing printed knowledge.

And as I also mentioned, the user is paying for the conversion and the publishers are pocketing the additional profits.

As the trend continues it raises an question...will magazines offer only an electronic version and will HSM be one of them?

TMT

TMT

loose nut
09-22-2010, 06:25 PM
This is why standards like the PDF format are so important, Most word processors, readers and any other descent software can import or export in the PDF.

If a company as an example has a lot of old documents in digital format like the old "Wang" word processor, a converter program or a software emulator can be written to make them available again.

Once something ,like a book, has been digitized it can never really be lost, on the other hand libraries are facing an overwhelming problem of books deteriorating at an alarming rate. Some have begun a program of digitizing these older book to try and save the info, contained in them, most are long out of print.

lazlo
09-22-2010, 07:00 PM
Despite numerous requests to the editor of M/E and MEW to supply DVDs of the archived editions of the mags

The copyright owners (currently, MyHobbyStore) are frighteningly protective of the ancient Model Engineer issues, as J.W. Early found out the hard way :(


there is a yearly "Subscription" service to allow access to all the MEWs and some of the M/Es.

Yeah, and what a disaster that was -- you can only read the issues online with a kooky Flash reader (no downloading allowed), they intentionally down-rezzed the scans, where it's very hard to read the blueprints, they retroactively abbreviated the issues contained in the digital subscription...

I know, based on your posts on the MyHobbyStore forum, that you (and Sir John, among others) have similar feelings.

MrDan
09-22-2010, 07:48 PM
+1 for kindle.

I have an extensive library of various types of books. By library, I mean a room with dedicated shelves sorted by genre and author.

I am on my fourth Kindle, my wife is on her second.

My friend has a Sony reader, and now has a Kindle.

I have a iPad

I think I'm qualified to speak on the different formats.

The sony can't touch the kindle. The wireless ability of the kindle simply outclasses the sony PC synch.

As for old technical manuals. Our service manuals at work (10s of thousands of pages with schematics) were all converted to electronic format (proprietary laptop) in the 90s. I still miss the books but would take them on a Kindle DX over a laptop.

Concerning loosing your library when the Kindle breaks. Wrong, that's one of the Kindles advantages. Your library is synched automatically to Amazon. I read a bit at night on the kindle, then at the doctors office the next day I read a few pages in the waiting room on my blackberry. Then that night after dinner I read a few pages on the iPad. The current page is always synched between devices automatically. No book does this, as I'm not carrying that book with me during the day.

When I fly on business, I'm taking thousands of books with me on one Kindle, or as I used to, I took 3-4 paper books. The kindle offers more variety for way less weight.

As I've said, I'm on Kindle number four. Each one was replaced under warranty, IMMEDIATELY by Amazon. The literally ship you a new one synched to your account and ready to go out of the box. You have 30 days to put the broken one back into the box provided and send it back freight free. It could not be any easier.

As for DRM, I'm not a fan. I am a fan of Amazon though. If DRM makes the books available, then whatever. I can share books with my family via multiple kindles. I cannot share with others. That is a downside, but not that big of one to me.

Some of my favorite authors have been discovered when I downloaded a free book on Amazon, usually book 1 of a series. Books 2-6 turned out the be great. I'd never have bought book 1 had it not been free. The free books are a big bonus.

As for reading on an iPad vs the Kindle, the Kindle is bio LCD, the iPad is a traditional backlit LCD. If you are on the beach with a Corona, the iPad is washed out in the bright light. The kindle is EXACTLY like a printed book. If you have enough light to read a book, you can read the kindle, period. It doesn't glare, it doesn't wash out. In the iPads defense, if you want to read in bed at night, the iPad is backlit so you don't need a lamp on. 99% of the time, I'd take the Kindle to read. Also, the Kindle is shaped/sized like a VERY thin paperback. It's perfect for holding in one hand. The iPad is slightly large in the hand, making it a bit awkward to read for long periods of time. The ipad is nice to watch netflix streaming movies on though.

As for forward compatability, again nods to Amazon. I seriously doubt they'll just dump hundreds of thousands of books formatted for the kindle. If they do, by then I'll need a new Kindle anyway because it'll probably have holograms. Do I think I'll have a first generation Kindle 15 years from now? No, I'll have generation 6.

Book - $15, e-book $10.

As for my paper library, except for technical manuals, authors I just love, cook books and unique books, all my other books were donated to the library. Too much room wasted, too much dusting, organizing, etc. My remaining books are much more manageable now.

Those who are poo pooing the kindle seem to be ones who don't read generally popular publications or don't like any of this new fangled technology. Either camp could be portrayed as "cranky old machinists." :) I wonder if they use DROs?

garyphansen
09-22-2010, 09:51 PM
Thanks Tim. That is what I was asking, if the text to speech option was worth while. I had wanted to make my novel Survival at Starvation Lake available as an audio book but my publisher does not offer that option. I own the copyright so I could have some other company make it into an audio book but I would need to do some researcher to find some where to do it.

By the way my E book reached 4036 on the Amazon best sellers e book list today. That is still 4035 from number one but not too bad considering that the e book has been out for less than two months and that it is over 670,000 books on the list. Gary P. Hansen

Too_Many_Tools
09-23-2010, 01:06 AM
This is why standards like the PDF format are so important, Most word processors, readers and any other descent software can import or export in the PDF.

If a company as an example has a lot of old documents in digital format like the old "Wang" word processor, a converter program or a software emulator can be written to make them available again.

Once something ,like a book, has been digitized it can never really be lost, on the other hand libraries are facing an overwhelming problem of books deteriorating at an alarming rate. Some have begun a program of digitizing these older book to try and save the info, contained in them, most are long out of print.

Standards mean nothing unless they are adhered to.

Check out the "standards" of electronic memory devices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_memory_cards

To convert any electronic file into another, a converting program must exist and run...that costs money...guess what is not being done to the many existing data files today.

Those data files are not accessible and therefore "do not exist" to the new electronic readers...nor are they likely to be in the future.

Another dirty little secret is that conversion programs many times corrupt the final results...anyone care to double check the results of millions of files that need to be converted?

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-23-2010, 01:30 AM
+1 for kindle.

I have an extensive library of various types of books. By library, I mean a room with dedicated shelves sorted by genre and author.

I am on my fourth Kindle, my wife is on her second.

My friend has a Sony reader, and now has a Kindle.

I have a iPad

I think I'm qualified to speak on the different formats.

The sony can't touch the kindle. The wireless ability of the kindle simply outclasses the sony PC synch.

As for old technical manuals. Our service manuals at work (10s of thousands of pages with schematics) were all converted to electronic format (proprietary laptop) in the 90s. I still miss the books but would take them on a Kindle DX over a laptop.

Concerning loosing your library when the Kindle breaks. Wrong, that's one of the Kindles advantages. Your library is synched automatically to Amazon. I read a bit at night on the kindle, then at the doctors office the next day I read a few pages in the waiting room on my blackberry. Then that night after dinner I read a few pages on the iPad. The current page is always synched between devices automatically. No book does this, as I'm not carrying that book with me during the day.

When I fly on business, I'm taking thousands of books with me on one Kindle, or as I used to, I took 3-4 paper books. The kindle offers more variety for way less weight.

As I've said, I'm on Kindle number four. Each one was replaced under warranty, IMMEDIATELY by Amazon. The literally ship you a new one synched to your account and ready to go out of the box. You have 30 days to put the broken one back into the box provided and send it back freight free. It could not be any easier.

As for DRM, I'm not a fan. I am a fan of Amazon though. If DRM makes the books available, then whatever. I can share books with my family via multiple kindles. I cannot share with others. That is a downside, but not that big of one to me.

Some of my favorite authors have been discovered when I downloaded a free book on Amazon, usually book 1 of a series. Books 2-6 turned out the be great. I'd never have bought book 1 had it not been free. The free books are a big bonus.

As for reading on an iPad vs the Kindle, the Kindle is bio LCD, the iPad is a traditional backlit LCD. If you are on the beach with a Corona, the iPad is washed out in the bright light. The kindle is EXACTLY like a printed book. If you have enough light to read a book, you can read the kindle, period. It doesn't glare, it doesn't wash out. In the iPads defense, if you want to read in bed at night, the iPad is backlit so you don't need a lamp on. 99% of the time, I'd take the Kindle to read. Also, the Kindle is shaped/sized like a VERY thin paperback. It's perfect for holding in one hand. The iPad is slightly large in the hand, making it a bit awkward to read for long periods of time. The ipad is nice to watch netflix streaming movies on though.

As for forward compatability, again nods to Amazon. I seriously doubt they'll just dump hundreds of thousands of books formatted for the kindle. If they do, by then I'll need a new Kindle anyway because it'll probably have holograms. Do I think I'll have a first generation Kindle 15 years from now? No, I'll have generation 6.

Book - $15, e-book $10.

As for my paper library, except for technical manuals, authors I just love, cook books and unique books, all my other books were donated to the library. Too much room wasted, too much dusting, organizing, etc. My remaining books are much more manageable now.

Those who are poo pooing the kindle seem to be ones who don't read generally popular publications or don't like any of this new fangled technology. Either camp could be portrayed as "cranky old machinists." :) I wonder if they use DROs?


Do you know how you recognize the pioneers of technology?

By the arrows in their backs. ;<)

I have more than my share.

The road of technology is littered by false promises of the "latest gadget".

The term "E-waste" says it all.

Having thousands of books with you means nothing...having the right one at the right time is everything.

The ones who are poo pooing the electronic readers (and I do think they have their place) are likely the ones who have seen technology come and go..and go..and go.

Again...the socalled "standards" of memory devices demonstrate how technology operates when there is no industry discipline....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_memory_cards

You also mention the hallowed "synching" capability...tell me...how does that work with no Internet connection available...which is the case in most of the United States (per square miles).

A book consumes no power, has no need for an Internet connection and needs no special electronic device for the user to view its information...and is a mature multi hundred year old technology that is open sourced.

Did I mention that it works anywhere there is light...including the bathroom?

When the electronic readers allow me to read anything anywhere with next to nothing for cost I will be their strongest supporter.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-23-2010, 01:33 AM
A question for those who use electronic readers..if I already own a book, do I have to buy another copy of it for the reader?

If so, why?

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-23-2010, 01:41 AM
This is why standards like the PDF format are so important, Most word processors, readers and any other descent software can import or export in the PDF.

If a company as an example has a lot of old documents in digital format like the old "Wang" word processor, a converter program or a software emulator can be written to make them available again.

Once something ,like a book, has been digitized it can never really be lost, on the other hand libraries are facing an overwhelming problem of books deteriorating at an alarming rate. Some have begun a program of digitizing these older book to try and save the info, contained in them, most are long out of print.

Did you know that there are NINE different versions of PDF "standard"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_Document_Format

And what happens when Adobe Systems decides that it wants to collect royalties?

TMT

Mark Hockett
09-23-2010, 03:36 AM
You also mention the hallowed "synching" capability...tell me...how does that work with no Internet connection available...which is the case in most of the United States (per square miles).

You are not helping your case when you make incorrect statements such as this. The Kindle uses any 3G cell phone connection. So between the Cell connection and the wireless internet connection capability there's probably not many places you can't get a book. My wife has never had a problem downloading a book and we travel all over, including England. And if I remember correctly you don't need a connection to read books if your books are already stored in the Kindle.


Did I mention that it works anywhere there is light...including the bathroom? The Kindle works everywhere and doesn't need light.


When the electronic readers allow me to read anything anywhere with next to nothing for cost I will be their strongest supporter. TMT
You can't even do that with paper books. If a book is out of print and you can't find one how do you read it? Many rare, out of print books that I find are very expensive. Many are out of my price range so I will never read them.
If my house were to burn down tomorrow I would lose my entire library but my wife would still have access to all her Kindle books.

You should research the Kindle more so you will have a better understanding of what they can do,
http://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Reading-Display-Graphite-Globally/dp/B002FQJT3Q

With your comments on this post I am shocked that you own a computer. Did you fight that technology too?

Circlip
09-23-2010, 03:54 AM
Yeah, and what a disaster that was -- you can only read the issues online with a kooky Flash reader (no downloading allowed), they intentionally down-rezzed the scans, where it's very hard to read the blueprints, they retroactively abbreviated the issues contained in the digital subscription...


Trouble is Lazlo, Sir John amd I seem to have common sense genes.

A mate rang the other day to ask if I cold let him have a copy of a fold out plan that hadn't been included in the scan of issue 14 of the archived copy. My balls are sore really have a nerve charging for an incomplete service. TGF "Cottage" industry.

Why do so many regard the E-readers as a replacement for books?? I see it as a convenient way to use a library of my choice in an otherwise impossible situation, already stated about holiday reading.

When I worked for a living, pity the tech. wasn't there to have a library on my Drawing board containing all the design info I needed in a convenient "Block". How many Xerox copies of essential information have we generated and collated into our own technical folders?? Only compact form at that time was Microfilm/fische.

Regards Ian.

MrDan
09-23-2010, 08:02 AM
Do you know how you recognize the pioneers of technology?

By the arrows in their backs. ;<)

I have more than my share.

The road of technology is littered by false promises of the "latest gadget".

The term "E-waste" says it all.

Having thousands of books with you means nothing...having the right one at the right time is everything.

The ones who are poo pooing the electronic readers (and I do think they have their place) are likely the ones who have seen technology come and go..and go..and go.

Again...the socalled "standards" of memory devices demonstrate how technology operates when there is no industry discipline....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_memory_cards

You also mention the hallowed "synching" capability...tell me...how does that work with no Internet connection available...which is the case in most of the United States (per square miles).

A book consumes no power, has no need for an Internet connection and needs no special electronic device for the user to view its information...and is a mature multi hundred year old technology that is open sourced.

Did I mention that it works anywhere there is light...including the bathroom?

When the electronic readers allow me to read anything anywhere with next to nothing for cost I will be their strongest supporter.

TMT


I too have been the one to buy something new and see it fail. I also owned GPS when nobody believed LORAN could be replaced and an iPod when nobody had heard of it. Sometimes new things actually do change the world.

"Having thousands of books with you means nothing...having the right one at the right time is everything."

Perhaps I mispoke. I have thousands of books with me, most of which I've already read. I also have the ability to download whatever new book I want to read anywhere except on a plane in flight, leading to your next point.

"You also mention the hallowed "synching" capability...tell me...how does that work with no Internet connection available...which is the case in most of the United States (per square miles). "

The synch, unlike a Sony ready, is wireless and uses 3G cell technology. There is no ongoing cost to the user for this cell technology. 3G, as we know by the pecker heads driving like idiots while talking on their phones, is pretty much everywhere. I've traveled fairly far and wide with my Kindle and I've never not had connection. However a connection is not required to use the Kindle once the book is downloaded so you can travel to non-3g areas.

"The ones who are poo pooing the electronic readers (and I do think they have their place) are likely the ones who have seen technology come and go..and go..and go. "

There is a difference between being a bit jaded by the newest gizmo and being closed to new ways of doing things. E-readers aren't brand new and aren't in their first generation. They won't completely replace books, just like we won't have paperless offices. They not only will, but they already have changed the way the book industry functions. Sitting in the back and poo pooing new stuff will leave you in the back as the world progresses. If you can be happy with that, I'm truly happy for you. I avoid the things I can myself, but I also grab onto the things that seem to make things better. My Kindle is truly a huge leap forward for 80% of my reading.

"When the electronic readers allow me to read anything anywhere with next to nothing for cost I will be their strongest supporter."

Excluding the cost of the initial unit, which I've recouped in savings in the cost difference of the books, I'd say the Kindle is there for you. I'm assuming of course that by next to nothing you mean in comparison to a new book. If all you do is read library books for free, nothing commercial will compete with that. Of course, tax dollars and donations are what allows that "free" service to exist. I'm sure if you did a cost analysis on the library system, you'd find the cost per checkout is a bit higher than "free."

"A book consumes no power, has no need for an Internet connection and needs no special electronic device for the user to view its information...and is a mature multi hundred year old technology that is open sourced.

Did I mention that it works anywhere there is light...including the bathroom?"

A book consumes trees and energy for paper processing. It has to be trucked all over for distribution and sale, and most importantly to the end user, it has to be stored in a climate controlled environment (i.e not parked out in the rain or eaten by mice at least). It takes up space in your facility. Having my "special reader" with me is less work than keeping up with a book. As I said, I used to take 3-4 books with me when on a trip, taking up valuable space in my pack. The kindle is effectively non-existent in my packing, allows me to have many books physically with me, and if I decide I suddenly want to read european zombie books for some reason, I get a 3g signal and download in less than 60 seconds whatever it is I want. As for reading where there is light, the bio LCD works exactly like print as far as readability in light. It looks like someone drew on the backside of the glass with a sharpie, it looks like ink. If you have light to read a book, you have light to read a Kindle.

As you are taking the time to link to examples to backup your points, always an admirable thing to do, let me point out a few things that have changed in the world. Anyone remember researching the Encyclopedia Britanica for information on a topic? I was fortunate enough to have a full set growing up and used to spend hours pouring through those volumes. I even still have them because they were beautifully bound and printed. They are in boxes in my barn because I hate to throw away something that was so valuable. The library won't take them, even as a free donation. Of course, somebody invented the CD and suddenly a current version of the encyclopedia was available on ONE CD! And it was searchable! Since that time I never opened the books again other than for nostalgia. In short order, buying an encyclopedia on CD was passe as those CDs started coming free with any new computer because it was so cheap to have the entire encyclopedia they were a lost leader with purchase. So for an industry, the world changed because of technology. Speaking of change, anybody received an encyclopedia CD with a computer recently? No, that little DOD project that Al Gore apparently invented called the internet came along. Now, who in the world is going to go to an encyclopedia or CD to look something up when you can google it. Today, people are using google on their smart phones with location based information. The technology train continues it's blistering pace. We can be in the engine pouring in coal, in the first car grabbing everything that comes along first, or somewhere in the middle doing what makes sense. Some of us choose to get off and stay where they are. Any of those positions are fine in my opinion, for the person who chooses it. Doesn't make the others wrong.

Anyone can pick holes in something as complex as e-readers. I can pick them apart myself. Many books I'd like to read are not available on an e-book. The battery life of two weeks means that sometimes you just forget to charge it and end up with a dead battery. What I'm telling you is, based on actual 1st hand experience, the Kindle is better than a book for 80% of what I read.

914Wilhelm
09-23-2010, 08:18 AM
I've got an Ipad that I'm downloading both pleasure and technical books to. I also own lots of real books that I'll probably never part with (well maybe when I'm dead). Just the other day, my wife was telling me about a book she wanted me to read. I started to thumb through the print version of her copy and in a few minutes couldn't really do it as the print version was a miserable turd in the art of bookbinding. Spine was crap, pages were so miserably cut and unaligned it looked like an elementary school art project. The e-version is a better book in this case, easier to read, easier to turn pages on, easier to set down and find your spot.

BigBoy1
09-23-2010, 10:21 AM
The Kindle uses any 3G cell phone connection. So between the Cell connection and the wireless internet connection capability there's probably not many places you can't get a book.

I don't have a cell phone and even if I did, it wouldn't work. My wife wanted one and we tried three different companies phones and not one of them worked at our home. Each one could not receive a signal.

I'm not sure how cell phones and the wireless internet connection work. Is it done over the cell phone connection? If I understand this correctly, you have to have a cell phone which costs ($50-$100/month) which connects to the phone system. Even if you get "unlimited" phone time, you still are paying the month fee for the cell phone. If you don't have unlimited service, and the connection time is not "free" so you end up paying a fee just to read your book. This sound really crazy to me. Once you buy the book, do you keep sending a month use fee to the publisher?

Too_Many_Tools
09-23-2010, 10:49 AM
I too have been the one to buy something new and see it fail. I also owned GPS when nobody believed LORAN could be replaced and an iPod when nobody had heard of it. Sometimes new things actually do change the world.

"Having thousands of books with you means nothing...having the right one at the right time is everything."

Perhaps I mispoke. I have thousands of books with me, most of which I've already read. I also have the ability to download whatever new book I want to read anywhere except on a plane in flight, leading to your next point.

"You also mention the hallowed "synching" capability...tell me...how does that work with no Internet connection available...which is the case in most of the United States (per square miles). "

The synch, unlike a Sony ready, is wireless and uses 3G cell technology. There is no ongoing cost to the user for this cell technology. 3G, as we know by the pecker heads driving like idiots while talking on their phones, is pretty much everywhere. I've traveled fairly far and wide with my Kindle and I've never not had connection. However a connection is not required to use the Kindle once the book is downloaded so you can travel to non-3g areas.

"The ones who are poo pooing the electronic readers (and I do think they have their place) are likely the ones who have seen technology come and go..and go..and go. "

There is a difference between being a bit jaded by the newest gizmo and being closed to new ways of doing things. E-readers aren't brand new and aren't in their first generation. They won't completely replace books, just like we won't have paperless offices. They not only will, but they already have changed the way the book industry functions. Sitting in the back and poo pooing new stuff will leave you in the back as the world progresses. If you can be happy with that, I'm truly happy for you. I avoid the things I can myself, but I also grab onto the things that seem to make things better. My Kindle is truly a huge leap forward for 80% of my reading.

"When the electronic readers allow me to read anything anywhere with next to nothing for cost I will be their strongest supporter."

Excluding the cost of the initial unit, which I've recouped in savings in the cost difference of the books, I'd say the Kindle is there for you. I'm assuming of course that by next to nothing you mean in comparison to a new book. If all you do is read library books for free, nothing commercial will compete with that. Of course, tax dollars and donations are what allows that "free" service to exist. I'm sure if you did a cost analysis on the library system, you'd find the cost per checkout is a bit higher than "free."

"A book consumes no power, has no need for an Internet connection and needs no special electronic device for the user to view its information...and is a mature multi hundred year old technology that is open sourced.

Did I mention that it works anywhere there is light...including the bathroom?"

A book consumes trees and energy for paper processing. It has to be trucked all over for distribution and sale, and most importantly to the end user, it has to be stored in a climate controlled environment (i.e not parked out in the rain or eaten by mice at least). It takes up space in your facility. Having my "special reader" with me is less work than keeping up with a book. As I said, I used to take 3-4 books with me when on a trip, taking up valuable space in my pack. The kindle is effectively non-existent in my packing, allows me to have many books physically with me, and if I decide I suddenly want to read european zombie books for some reason, I get a 3g signal and download in less than 60 seconds whatever it is I want. As for reading where there is light, the bio LCD works exactly like print as far as readability in light. It looks like someone drew on the backside of the glass with a sharpie, it looks like ink. If you have light to read a book, you have light to read a Kindle.

As you are taking the time to link to examples to backup your points, always an admirable thing to do, let me point out a few things that have changed in the world. Anyone remember researching the Encyclopedia Britanica for information on a topic? I was fortunate enough to have a full set growing up and used to spend hours pouring through those volumes. I even still have them because they were beautifully bound and printed. They are in boxes in my barn because I hate to throw away something that was so valuable. The library won't take them, even as a free donation. Of course, somebody invented the CD and suddenly a current version of the encyclopedia was available on ONE CD! And it was searchable! Since that time I never opened the books again other than for nostalgia. In short order, buying an encyclopedia on CD was passe as those CDs started coming free with any new computer because it was so cheap to have the entire encyclopedia they were a lost leader with purchase. So for an industry, the world changed because of technology. Speaking of change, anybody received an encyclopedia CD with a computer recently? No, that little DOD project that Al Gore apparently invented called the internet came along. Now, who in the world is going to go to an encyclopedia or CD to look something up when you can google it. Today, people are using google on their smart phones with location based information. The technology train continues it's blistering pace. We can be in the engine pouring in coal, in the first car grabbing everything that comes along first, or somewhere in the middle doing what makes sense. Some of us choose to get off and stay where they are. Any of those positions are fine in my opinion, for the person who chooses it. Doesn't make the others wrong.

Anyone can pick holes in something as complex as e-readers. I can pick them apart myself. Many books I'd like to read are not available on an e-book. The battery life of two weeks means that sometimes you just forget to charge it and end up with a dead battery. What I'm telling you is, based on actual 1st hand experience, the Kindle is better than a book for 80% of what I read.


Good smart response. ;<)

I do not want to come across as one who is picking on electronic readers..I think they really do have their place in the scheme of things.

What I am doing is presenting some very real concerns.

For me and my type of usage, it will be a long time before I adopt any electronic reader.

Let someone else take the arrows this time. ;<)

One positive thing I think electronic readers will do is to finally force equipment manufacturers to offer daylight readable screens on laptops to compete with electronic readers...something that has been long, long overdue.

TMT

MrDan
09-23-2010, 10:49 AM
I don't have a cell phone and even if I did, it wouldn't work. My wife wanted one and we tried three different companies phones and not one of them worked at our home. Each one could not receive a signal.

I'm not sure how cell phones and the wireless internet connection work. Is it done over the cell phone connection? If I understand this correctly, you have to have a cell phone which costs ($50-$100/month) which connects to the phone system. Even if you get "unlimited" phone time, you still are paying the month fee for the cell phone. If you don't have unlimited service, and the connection time is not "free" so you end up paying a fee just to read your book. This sound really crazy to me. Once you buy the book, do you keep sending a month use fee to the publisher?

Did you try Verizon? We have hundreds of cell phones at work, including phones that travel into the Great Dismal Swamp (yes it's a real place.) Except for a few areas where US Cellular is better, Verizon has been the best bet for coverage. We have seriously bad areas where we travel so we give it a pretty good test.

As for how the e-book works, you do not pay for the cell service, period. You pay a one time cost to buy the e-reader, now $139 if I remember correctly, and it's cell service is paid for the life of the reader. No extra cell phone is required, no extra anything is required. The down side to this type of arrangement is Amazon could decide to turn off service to your unit and abandon the Kindle. If Barnes and Noble or BooksAMillion was selling this type of service I wouldn't buy one. Amazon is the king of online retailing, I doubt they are going anywhere soon, especially since the Kindle is kicking rump and taking names based on any reading I've done. So again, no, you don't need anything besides the Kindle and there are no ongoing costs to owning a Kindle, except for when you buy a book you pay for the book only.

bobw53
09-23-2010, 11:19 AM
I don't have a cell phone and even if I did, it wouldn't work. My wife wanted one and we tried three different companies phones and not one of them worked at our home. Each one could not receive a signal.

My friend lives in a nice little neighborhood in a gulley and he couldn't get any cell phone reception, half mile either way down the road and no problem. He is on call pretty much 24/7 and his job got sick of him not being able to be reached.

Verizon set up a little mini cell tower in his kitchen that works off of his internet connection. His neighbors love it since they can now get cell service. My phone worked great off of it, you just have a signal, nothing special to do. The only problem is that it won't transfer a call to or from the mini tower to a real tower, which only becomes a problem if you are talking and driving and drive into or out of the area.

Cost? I have no clue, his job pays for it.

lazlo
09-23-2010, 11:39 AM
Do you know how you recognize the pioneers of technology?

By the arrows in their backs. ;<)

I too have been the one to buy something new and see it fail. I also owned GPS when nobody believed LORAN could be replaced and an iPod when nobody had heard of it. Sometimes new things actually do change the world.

You realize that iPod was not the first, or fourth MP3 player, right? Despite Job's insistence that he invented the phone, the Internet and the MP3 player*, the iPhone didn't bring anything new to the table. Apple just has a knack for bundling existing products in a sexy package.

There's a corollary to Christensen's rules of disruptive technologies that the pioneer of a new technology always gets screwed. Apple and Microsoft are the incarnations of that principle.

http://www.youtube.com/v/ASkis57blsc

Al Messer
09-23-2010, 12:01 PM
A-HEM!! EXCUSE ME PLEASE, but the vast majority of you have missed my query completely, OR, perhaps I did not make myself clear. The proposal was: are there enough electronic books available of interest to a Model Engineer that would make the purchase of an electronic book reader worth the financial investment.

dp
09-23-2010, 12:02 PM
There's a corollary to Christensen's rules of disruptive technologies that the pioneer of a new technology always gets screwed.

Sometimes the inventor is simply unable to properly exploit the invention. In hindsight the Wright Bros. were never interested in bringing flight to the masses - they wanted to build a flying machine. That they wasted the rest of their lives defending their invention against those who did wish to enable wide scale flight attests to this limited vision. I'm ok with that - it's why we're not all carrying these: http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq169/ITechDiary/off%20topic/motorola-dynatac-8000x-pic-2.jpg

Al Messer
09-23-2010, 12:04 PM
" I've noticed that the two K.N.Harris steam bibles are electronically available as freebies.(Tut Tut)"

Which two, please?

Al

Circlip
09-23-2010, 01:36 PM
There are only two Al.

MBABM & MSAMSE

EddyCurr
09-23-2010, 02:48 PM
Verizon set up a little mini cell tower in his kitchen that works off of
his internet connection. His neighbors love it since they can now get
cell service.Sounds interesting.

Has he been able to ditch his microwave oven since they set up the
mini cell tower in the kitchen?

.

ulav8r
09-23-2010, 03:01 PM
Started downloading books to our Kindle last week. It was a gift from my daughter. I use her Amazon account, where she has it registered. Having been unemployed for 14 months, I have only looked for free books. There are over 16,000 available. They also give you a link to two other sites that have free books. Over the years I have downloaded several machining related books (such as The Catechism of Steam) from various sources. I will eventually get those downloaded to the Kindle also. So far, I am halfway through the first book I am reading on the Kindle and like it just fine.

Too_Many_Tools
09-23-2010, 03:48 PM
A-HEM!! EXCUSE ME PLEASE, but the vast majority of you have missed my query completely, OR, perhaps I did not make myself clear. The proposal was: are there enough electronic books available of interest to a Model Engineer that would make the purchase of an electronic book reader worth the financial investment.


I would say No.

HSM is not in electronic form.

I know of no other HSM type magazine that is.

Books? Just a scattering of them.

Note how difficult it is to even find a manual for a machine tool on the Internet.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-23-2010, 04:18 PM
Sometimes the inventor is simply unable to properly exploit the invention. In hindsight the Wright Bros. were never interested in bringing flight to the masses - they wanted to build a flying machine. That they wasted the rest of their lives defending their invention against those who did wish to enable wide scale flight attests to this limited vision.

Wasted their lives?

LOL...better do some research.

The Wrights were far beyond their time...good solid engineering, invested their own money and did good PR compared to their competition.

They targeted their invention to the military..where the serious money is.

The US military was blind..the Wrights finally sold planes to Europe.

The airplane made a MAJOR difference in WWI.

Ever check to see if major airlines have made a profit without a major government subsidy?

TMT

MrDan
09-23-2010, 04:46 PM
You realize that iPod was not the first, or fourth MP3 player, right? Despite Job's insistence that he invented the phone, the Internet and the MP3 player*, the iPhone didn't bring anything new to the table. Apple just has a knack for bundling existing products in a sexy package.

There's a corollary to Christensen's rules of disruptive technologies that the pioneer of a new technology always gets screwed. Apple and Microsoft are the incarnations of that principle.

http://www.youtube.com/v/ASkis57blsc

Yeah, I actually had one of the first MP3 players, I just couldn't remember the name and my post was already WAY too long. "iPod" conveyed the right message much more succinctly. Whatever that first one was that I had, it was horrible. I actually poo pooed the iPod at first because I "knew" the mp3 players were junk. Learned a bit since then.

MrDan
09-23-2010, 04:47 PM
A-HEM!! EXCUSE ME PLEASE, but the vast majority of you have missed my query completely, OR, perhaps I did not make myself clear. The proposal was: are there enough electronic books available of interest to a Model Engineer that would make the purchase of an electronic book reader worth the financial investment.

Don't bother us with your frivolous intelligent questions, can't you see we're having a useless OT discussion here! :)

MrDan
09-23-2010, 04:53 PM
Ever check to see if major airlines have made a profit without a major government subsidy?

TMT

Southwest??

Being the inventor is kind of like being the entrepreneur. The guy who starts the business from nothing and burns with the passion to make it go is usually not the guy who takes it to the next level. Despite all the negatives of corporate BS, it usually takes the guys in suits (HR, IT, professional management, etc.) to grow to the next level, unfortunately.

lazlo
09-23-2010, 05:03 PM
Yeah, I actually had one of the first MP3 players, I just couldn't remember the name and my post was already WAY too long. "iPod" conveyed the right message much more succinctly. Whatever that first one was that I had, it was horrible. I actually poo pooed the iPod at first because I "knew" the mp3 players were junk. Learned a bit since then.

Apparently I didn't convey the metaphor very well:

Microsoft, believe it or not, launched the first ebook reader: "Microsoft Reader" in 2000. Like every other time Microsoft has tried to innovate, it was a dismal failure. Microsoft Reader is still around -- in a rarely seen tablet, and in PC and mobile device software.

6 years later Sony launched the eReader. It wasn't a commercial success, largely because of a small number of books available.

A year later, Amazon launches the Kindle, which is a surprising success. Within a year, they have a 90% marketshare, largely due to lucrative contracts with the big publishing houses.

Then in 2010, Apple launches the iPad, with their own proprietary (of course) eBook system and exclusive contracts with the publishing houses, including a large number of textbook contracts. Within 3 months, Kindle's eBook marketshare drops from 90% to 35%.

http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2010/02/16/analyst-amazon-e-book-share-to-fall-from-90-to-35/

My point being, the success or failure of most consumer technology almost never has anything to do with the technical sophistication or originality of the idea.


are there enough electronic books available of interest to a Model Engineer that would make the purchase of an electronic book reader worth the financial investment.

No. There are no Model Engineering books available in eBook form. So unless you're willing to invest a lot of money to read old Google machining eBooks...

Too_Many_Tools
09-23-2010, 05:27 PM
You also may want to consider that B&N may not be around in the future...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=barnes+noble+bankruptcy&aq=o&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

TMT

Al Messer
09-23-2010, 09:13 PM
Don't bother us with your frivolous intelligent questions, can't you see we're having a useless OT discussion here! :)


FUN? FUN?? Is FUN allowed on this Board? LOL!

Al Messer
09-23-2010, 09:17 PM
There are only two Al.

MBABM & MSAMSE


Please de-code and transmit in the clear.

EddyCurr
09-23-2010, 09:37 PM
Microsoft, believe it or not, launched the first ebook reader:
"Microsoft Reader" in 2000.Beg pardon ?

Franklin, NuvoMedia, Gemstar and RCA - to name a few - might take issue
with the statement above.

NuvoMedia's Rocket eBook, followed by its successors the REB 1100 and
1200 were arguably the most commercially successful ebook readers during
the latter part of the '90's.

.

EddyCurr
09-23-2010, 09:41 PM
Please de-code and transmit in the clear.ModelStationaryandMarineSteamEngines

ModelBoilersandBoilermaking

.

Al Messer
09-24-2010, 09:48 AM
ModelStationaryandMarineSteamEngines

ModelBoilersandBoilermaking

.


Ah! Thanks! I already have those two---in hardback book format.

Too_Many_Tools
09-24-2010, 02:26 PM
Ah! Thanks! I already have those two---in hardback book format.

Hey..I have an idea...how about gluing a Kindle on one book and an Ipad on the other?

That way you have the best of both worlds. ;<)

TMT

loose nut
09-24-2010, 04:13 PM
The sony can't touch the kindle. The wireless ability of the kindle simply outclasses the sony PC synch.




As I've said, I'm on Kindle number four. Each one was replaced under warranty, IMMEDIATELY by Amazon.



Book - $15, e-book $10.





My Sony Daily Reader has the same 3G capabilty as your Kindle, it just goes to the Sony store not Amazon.

I wouldn't know about that my Sony reader has needed to be replaced

Book $15, e-book $10, downloaded off the net for free - Priceless.

loose nut
09-24-2010, 04:24 PM
Standards mean nothing unless they are adhered to.

To convert any electronic file into another, a converting program must exist and run...that costs money...guess what is not being done to the many existing data files today.

Those data files are not accessible and therefore "do not exist" to the new electronic readers...nor are they likely to be in the future.

Another dirty little secret is that conversion programs many times corrupt the final results...anyone care to double check the results of millions of files that need to be converted?



True but the EPUB format is becoming the defacto standard for digital books, it is companies like Amazon that have put out different formats that are muddying the pool, which isn't a real problem because there are some really good conversion programs for e-books.

Business that need to recover and/or convert old data will do it if necessary, it has happened many times before

- paper to microphish

-microphish to disk

-disk to large scale storage drive

it's just part of modern business.

Digital data can never really be lost if someone wants to really get it back, paper on the other hand does turn to dust and if not digitized it will be lost forever.

loose nut
09-24-2010, 04:32 PM
Having thousands of books with you means nothing...having the right one at the right time is everything.

TMT


Having the right book is important but that does mean you can't carry more, I new a guy who had thousands novels in his library, filled a whole room in his house, some E-book readers can also carry thousands of novels, as much as a small town public library, in a devise not much bigger then a paperback and usually thinner.

Frees up that room in the house for something else.

loose nut
09-24-2010, 04:34 PM
A-HEM!! EXCUSE ME PLEASE, but the vast majority of you have missed my query completely, OR, perhaps I did not make myself clear. The proposal was: are there enough electronic books available of interest to a Model Engineer that would make the purchase of an electronic book reader worth the financial investment.


Sorry, No!!!:(

loose nut
09-24-2010, 04:44 PM
You also may want to consider that B&N may not be around in the future...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=barnes+noble+bankruptcy&aq=o&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

TMT


Downloading off of the web may be the only game in town in the future and not just for books. Blockbuster just filed for Chapter 11 protection, they can compete with the likes of Netflicks and didn't internet porn put Penthouse out of business.

Dillon got it right "the world, she is a changin'", just to damn fast.

MrDan
09-24-2010, 09:31 PM
My Sony Daily Reader has the same 3G capabilty as your Kindle, it just goes to the Sony store not Amazon.

I wouldn't know about that my Sony reader has needed to be replaced

Book $15, e-book $10, downloaded off the net for free - Priceless.

I stand corrected. The only Sony e-reader I've used had to synch to a PC, it couldn't download directly. Glad to see they've solved that issue.

loose nut
09-24-2010, 11:13 PM
They still sinc to the PC but now have the 3G functionality also, it can be set up to automatically to down load newspapers and mags. etc. It also has a MP3 player built in plus a note taking app and a drawing app, don't no why but it's there. The battery life is 4 to 6 weeks at an average 1 to 1 1/2 hours use a day ( if the reader is in stand by mode between uses and shut off at night) , reading but falls off rapidly if the MP3 player is used. Most functions are controlled by touch screen commands.

I don't know how this compares to other readers like the kindle.

As to the original question about ME books etc. there is a fairly large collection of Model Engineer Mag. articles floating around the net but they don't work to well on readers, the print and layout isn't particularity suited to it.

Model Engineer just sees the old mags. as a cash cow these days. When it was run by Percival Marshall and later Argus press, Allied Press and MAP it was in support of the hobby.

After that Nexus got there greedy little hands on it and bleed it's good name for money, reprinting old articles as new, eliminating staff and other quality killing measures. The new owners aren't much better.

wierdscience
09-25-2010, 12:14 AM
Well all of this post was fun reading,for my own part the only joy I have gotten from a Kindle is the ad on TV rightnow.

Chick by the pool with the $150 sunglasses,first thought that crossed my mind is what a DINGBAT,$150 for F---ing sunglasses:D

When I travel I don't want to carry anything with me,not even an ink pen so an e-book reader would be useless to me.Infact the only reading I do anymore is the BBS,online news and a couple hours at bedtime.

My ideal "reader" would be hard drive tower on the nightstand and 30" flatscreen monitor on a ceiling mount.

loose nut
09-25-2010, 10:18 AM
My ideal "reader" would be hard drive tower on the nightstand and 30" flatscreen monitor on a ceiling mount.


That would do the job but many people including myself cannot read off of a computer screen for very long, don't know what the problem is but my eyes get all screwy trying to read off of a monitor, crt or lcd. My reader has the "e ink" (what ever that is) and makes reading from it the same as a book, no eye strain.

Forrest Addy
09-25-2010, 12:25 PM
I've been looking at the Kindle and like gadgets as they appear. I'm a reader. I have a library of about 200 paperbacks I re-read every couple of years and about 500 others on the shelf. I also have a couple hundred texts and other ewsource book both obscure and out of print. I don't think they will ever be rendered to digital format. And what will be the cost in dollars and bother to load it? Plus I already paid for a whole library; now I have to pay again for another library in digital format?

Other objections are: you can't dog-ear pages, scribble notes, tuck in book marks, stick Post-Its, quickly flip back and forth from the page I'm reading to maps, appendices, xerox pasages, etc

Still skeptical but maybe someday...

loose nut
09-25-2010, 03:01 PM
you would be surprised what has been put on the web as far as old books go, yours may already be there.