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mototed
09-26-2010, 03:52 PM
Went ahead and made two. One was the learning engine, other was the good one. Easier to make two with the set ups are already in place. I think the learning engine maybe close enough to run.
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc28/mototed/IMG_0058.jpg
I posted this question over at Chaskis site two weeks ago and never got a reply. The fuel seems to made with kerosine,ether,castor oil and 3% of amyl nitrate. Is this stuff avialible in the US? Can the fuel be bought premixed?
Thanks,
Ted

Peter.
09-26-2010, 03:55 PM
Neat looking engines. I see the blocks are made from alloy, but what about the cylinders?

Being engines for model aircraft, do you think there is any scope for weight reduction?

mototed
09-26-2010, 04:04 PM
Pistons are cast iron, and sleeves are steel. They are the Boll aero engines from the plans Chris Boll kindly supplied on the web.

Dragons_fire
09-26-2010, 04:18 PM
when i worked at a hobby shop a few years ago i think there was bottles of model "diesel". I cant remember exactly, and im not sure if its still available, or if its what you are looking for.

loose nut
09-26-2010, 04:26 PM
Do the propellers rotate in different directions so that you don't end up with unbalanced torque when you are flying that workbench around.:D :D :D

MotorradMike
09-26-2010, 04:32 PM
Hi Ted:

If those are glow plug 2 strokes they aren't really diesels. The only similarity is that they require no spark for ignition.
If I'm correct and they are like the Cox .049cc we use "Model airplane fuel" in Canada which I understand is a mix of Methanol and castor oil and can be found in any R/C hobby store.

They look pretty nice.

mototed
09-26-2010, 04:59 PM
In the US, all the model engines are glow plug style that use nitro methane fuel. Thought it would be cool to have one that did not require a battery to start it. I have done a little research now and found out that the amyl nitrate is, or was a inhalant drug (locker room, rush.etc) that you can not buy in the US any more. Stupid me, should of checked into fuel before I started on them.I thought I could find fuel after I made the engines. It's only a 3% component of the fuel. (used as a combustion enhancer) Maybe I could leave it out and use a drill motor to start them? Both of them make a really sweet "pooping" sound when turned over.

Peter.
09-26-2010, 04:59 PM
I think you are mistaking the compression adjusters for glow plugs Mike.

DICKEYBIRD
09-26-2010, 04:59 PM
Hi Ted:

If those are glow plug 2 strokes they aren't really diesels. The only similarity is that they require no spark for ignition.
If I'm correct and they are like the Cox .049cc we use "Model airplane fuel" in Canada which I understand is a mix of Methanol and castor oil and can be found in any R/C hobby store.

They look pretty nice.Those aren't glow engines, they are compression ignition engines.

Many pundits will argue ad nauseum that they aren't diesels because they don't have fuel injection but they do start and run well using compression ignition alone. Granted, the fuel is a big part of it but they do not use external batteries to start.

Ted, here's a link to Eric Clutton, "Dr. Diesel" who is one of the good guys and will tell you all you'd ever want to know about model diesels and will sell you good fuel ready to go. Just click on "Fuel." It's a very good site for a model diesel education as well.

http://www.cafes.net/doctordiesel/

MotorradMike
09-26-2010, 05:30 PM
OK, I'm out.

Just listening.

MrDan
09-26-2010, 05:31 PM
Went ahead and made two. One was the learning engine, other was the good one. Easier to make two with the set ups are already in place. I think the learning engine maybe close enough to run.

Ted

If my tenth attempt looked as good as your learning engine, I'd be pretty smug. Nice looking engines.

mototed
09-26-2010, 05:37 PM
Thanks Dickybird,
That looks like the link I was looking for :)

mototed
09-26-2010, 06:03 PM
MrDan,
Thank you for the compliment. I wish some machinist guys would drop by and look over my shoulders. Books don't cut it! Those last .001"-.005" always screw me up.
Ted

J Tiers
09-26-2010, 06:09 PM
IIRC, the diesel fuel for those has often got ether as a combustion initiator, not "enhancer".... But that may be only in Russia.

I have a Russian diesel that I have no fuel for (nor aircraft at the moment) but I am not good at reading the Russian instructions. it's an "MAP3", about 2.5 CC. The notes I had with it mentioned a considerable proportion of ether.

japcas
09-26-2010, 06:15 PM
Motoed, I did some digging as I thought I had found a recipe on the internet for model diesel fuel. I found it but I have never tried it. There was a guy on another forum by the name of Joe Webster that designed a simple diesel airplane engine called the NGEZ. He listed this recipe with the notes for his engine. I googled his name and engine but the plans don't seem to be available any longer. Anyway, here is what his notes said.


"As a side note, model diesel fuel is not the same as automotive diesel. It is usually an equal part blend of three ingredients - kerosene, castor oil, and ether (1:1:1). Sometimes a small amount of amyl nitrate (2-3%) is added as an ignition improver - which is especially helpful in smaller engines. If you wish to make your own fuel, check the following internet resources for more info."

J Tiers
09-26-2010, 06:28 PM
He sells the plans

http://webster_engines.home.comcast.net/~webster_engines/NGEZ-1/NGEZ-1.html

Thanks for confirming the ether content..............

mototed
09-26-2010, 06:37 PM
jacpcas
It's the amyl nitrate ingredient that can't be found in the US. I might not have made it clear on my first post. I was wondering if there was a substitute.

(You are in the Tri citys Tennessee, Midnight rambler radio? WQUT FM)

japcas
09-26-2010, 07:09 PM
The original plan set for the first NGEZ engine he posted on the web for free. Then he updated it a bit and called it the NGEZ-1 I believe.

Motoed, I took it that the amyl nitrate was added sometimes but wasn't necessarily a have to have item. You might mix up a small batch without it and see if it runs. Anyway, I read down farther in his notes that he liked Aeroydyne fuel. Here is a link and it looks to be very affordable, probably not worth the trouble of mixing your own. Hope this helps a little more.

http://www.freeflightmodels.com/index.html
Go up to the top and click on Flying Accessories and you'll get to the page that lists the fuels.

Willy
09-26-2010, 09:05 PM
Very nice job on the engines, I'm sure they'll run as nice as they look.
Excellent project, I can't see the difference between the "learning" engine and the "good" one.

I've got a few R/C diesels, and although I haven't used them for some time now I do remember the recipe that japcas gave, and did use it many years ago including the amyl nitrate. It definitely improved the ignition characteristics of the home brewed fuel. Too bad it's probably been banned by now.
I didn't know I was supposed to use it as an inhalant.:rolleyes:

Here's a link (http://wwcn.org/~grit/faqs/airmodelsfaq.html#subsection:Fuel Engines)to another small article about fuel and a quote from that page.




The basic formula is equal parts ether, castor oil and kerosene plus 2% Amyl Nitrate or Isopropyl Nitrate (IPN) ignition improver. Depending on the engine, you can vary this. Stick to the above formula for a vintage diesel. But with a modern diesel like the Irvine 40D or 20D you can drop the oil content to as low as 20%. Take the ether content up to 35%, add the ignition improver and the balance is kerosene. Basically you reduce the oil content as you add the following feature in an engine: Single Ball bearing, Twin ball bearing ABC piston/cylinder assembly.
Some people use automotive starting fluid instead of ether. It doesn't contain 100% ether so increase the amount of it and use less kerosene.
It is possible to use old fashioned automotive mineral oil instead of castor oil. Say SAE 40. But generally, castor is preferred.
Commercial model diesel fuels can be obtained from Aerodyne, FHS (Red Max), Eric Clutton and Davis Diesel.






The isopropyl nitrate is another diesel fuel ignition improver that may be more readily available as it is a primary active ingredient in some, although not all, over the counter cetane improvers for diesel fuel. Although any cetane improver is better than none, and most name brand cetane, or ignition improvers, for diesel fuel do help.
You'll have to experiment a little to find a ratio that gives good starting and low speed operation if you do decide to make your own fuel, remember the old saying about " a little is good, a lot is not usually better".

I'm sure if you check with a few R/C model shops though that you will be able to locate a commercial diesel blend and thus be assured of a quality product.
Nothing worse than trying to start a new engine and not knowing if you have a problem with the engine or the fuel.

Good luck and let us know when she's running.

gnm109
09-26-2010, 09:07 PM
When I was but a mere child in Chicago, I saw an ad in one of the science magazines for a model diesel engine. I was quite good at building model free flight planes and I wanted to try a diesel engine.

It was only a few dollars, less than $5.00 or so delivered IIRC and I set it up in my test stand and tried some diesel fuel that I got at a local hobby shop. Over a period of about 6 months, I succeeded in getting it to pop about three times. It was a total dud. In fact, I think you can corroborate this if you Google Deezil. I don't have to. I already know they were not any good.

Here's a link to an ad for the Deezil. A curse on them.


http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-1954-DEEZIL-1-7-HP-MODEL-ENGINE-AD-Gotham-Hobby-/230438923496?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35a73aece8

dp
09-26-2010, 11:22 PM
Here's a link to an ad for the Deezil. A curse on them.


http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-1954-DEEZIL-1-7-HP-MODEL-ENGINE-AD-Gotham-Hobby-/230438923496?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35a73aece8

As a kid in Hawaii I spent a lot of time at the Navy base hobby shop in Pearl Harbor. They had a baseball field outside the building where the guys that had them could fly them. It was there I saw the first Deezil in my experience and what I recall about them is they would not start well, didn't run well, and the motor mounts would shake loose. Cokes (in a bottle) in the machine were a nickle.

Edit: Looks like the ball park is still there after 55 years.
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=21.349212,-157.94206&spn=0.003138,0.004286&t=h&z=18

That ebay advert costs as much as the original engine :)

gnm109
09-27-2010, 12:05 AM
As a kid in Hawaii I spent a lot of time at the Navy base hobby shop in Pearl Harbor. They had a baseball field outside the building where the guys that had them could fly them. It was there I was the first Deezil in my experience and what I recall about them is they would not start well, didn't run well, and the motor mounts would shake loose. Cokes (in a bottle) in the machine were a nickle.

Edit: Looks like the ball park is still there after 55 years.
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=21.349212,-157.94206&spn=0.003138,0.004286&t=h&z=18

That ebay advert costs as much as the original engine :)


Yeah, that's really funny. You can imagine how disappointed I was. I saved up some money from a paper route to buy the damn thing and then it wouldn't run. I'm still mad about that. I think it was something like $3.50 with postage but that was a lot more money then than now. :mad:

If I recall, I finally tossed the damn thing out. Made me feel good about the whole thing.

There were numerous other engines that ran very well in those days, too. I had an Arden .09 on ignition in a free flight that would start every time with one flip.

I also still have an Ohlsson .60 and a Fox .59. Those were both excellent engines.

My latest activities have been in Radio Control with electric-powered airplanes. That's a lot cleaner than either ignition or glow.

So much for the Deezil. LOL.

The Doctor
09-27-2010, 01:44 AM
Check Davis Diesel Development for fuel & info.

http://www.davisdieseldevelopment.com/



Ed

Circlip
09-27-2010, 04:17 AM
" I love the smell of Castor in the morning"

Well it could have been a line in a movie?

Leave Nitro out, just loads up the stresses in the engine, why do megga-revs appeal so much?? Diesels (or compression ignition) engines are slow (Relatively) revving powerhouses. Where the sawmills create noise, the diesels create Torque.

Fuel mix, 1:1:1 Parraffin (Kero), Ether and CASTOR oil, forget the crap synthetics/mineral oils, Castor is good for keeping your hands in a smooth condition and smells right.

Only thing is after running with castor, flush the engine with a light oil as castor goes gummy if left.

Regards Ian.

Al Messer
09-27-2010, 12:09 PM
[QUOTE=Circlip]" I love the smell of Castor in the morning"

As I dimly recall, back in the late 1940's and earrly 1950's, McCoy Redhead had an .049 Diesel, and there was a West German Weber, I think, and a few others. Some people liked them and others did not. Biggest fault, if I remember, was that they were very difficult to start in cold weather, but, when the temperature got down to freezing, I had the same problem with glo-plug engines. Edgar T Westbury designed and built many model engines, and some of then were Diesel as I recall. I guess that you pays your money and takes your choice----I'll stick with Steam! LOL!

rklopp
09-27-2010, 01:25 PM
I built an ML Midge "Diesel" recently and got it running on home-brew fuel. I went to the local motorcycle accessories shop and bought a pint of castor oil. I went next door to the Napa Autor Parts place and bought a pint of "Diesel cetane enhancer" and a spray can of Napa Premium starting fluid. I went to the hardward store and bought a jug of kerosene. I inverted the spray can of ether and bled off the propellant OUTDOORS, then punctured the can and captured the fluid in a container. Opaque metal is highly recommended, as ether can degrade to an explosive compound due to light.

I mixed 35% ether, 30% castor, 30% kero and the balance cetane enhancer in another bottle. It worked! The engine runs great, though I do have to use an electric starter despite all the dire warnings against it. Perhaps as the engine frees up I will be able to hand start it.

Do your engines have a nice "pinch" as the piston goes above the exhaust ports? You need to have what seems like a ridiculously tight fit between the piston and cylinder for one of these engines to run and last a while.

madman
09-27-2010, 02:00 PM
Used to dabble had some records as a young lad. We had FAI events team Race was the one for 2.5 cc diesel engines. Most home made and then the russians were the fastest. Used to add 1.5 to 2.5 percent amyl nitrate to the fuel as a ignition enhancer, Hope this may help you. Mike

Ausserdog
09-28-2010, 11:57 AM
You can make model diesel fuel from cans of car starting fluid - just add castor oil.

Be VERY careful about starting a model diesel using an electric starter. Since the compression ratio is high to start with, it's easy to hydro-lock the engine and bend a rod. Hand prop only!

Here's a link to Ron Chernich's web site:
http://modelenginenews.org/

Everything you ever wanted to know about model diesels and old ignition and glow engines. There are some free plans on there too, but many more are available if you purchase his CD.

There are MANY hours of reading there!

mototed
09-28-2010, 06:23 PM
Ausserdog, Thats were I got the plans from! I think I might just order a can pint of fuel from Aroedyne or davisdiesel. I don't have a pinch when the prop is kicked over, but a pleasing pop sound. I hope that will be tight enough.
On a side note, I was showing my wife two 5/16"x 24 nuts I made to mount the carburetors. I live in a lame subdivision and told her that I am probably the only guy the neighborhood that can make his own nuts. She got a kick out of that for some reason:confused:
Thanks for the help guys.
Ted