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View Full Version : Not Really OT: Does anyone here raise cattle? (yes its home shop related)



sconisbee
10-06-2010, 02:02 PM
Anyone here raise cattle? if so do you have anything like these feeders?
http://www.portequip.co.uk/2008-page08.htm
and if so could you enlighten me a little to what they look like and how they work? I have a friend that wants one made up so I thought I would see what I could find out

Thanks Alot

Simon.

PS its a not for profit favor before anyone has a go like they have in the past over "doing my work for free" I just cant find out much about them so far?

Black Forest
10-06-2010, 02:33 PM
Is there supposed to be a link in your post? I don't see any cattle feeders!

sconisbee
10-06-2010, 02:50 PM
Is there supposed to be a link in your post? I don't see any cattle feeders!

Good point must have been a brain fart im sure it was there a minute ago:o

Fixed it was a little brain glitch on my part

Black Forest
10-06-2010, 03:02 PM
I am not sure what you mean by "what they look like"......you posted a picture of the feeder........hmmmm.

As to how they work it is very simple. There is a lid on the top. You open it and dump the feed in the hopper. It is a gravity feed system. As the animal eats the feed drops down keeping the feed available to the animal. Quite simple. Only problems are with a sweet feed they can get clogged. Pellets work better. Straight corn flows well.

sconisbee
10-06-2010, 03:13 PM
I am not sure what you mean by "what they look like"......you posted a picture of the feeder........hmmmm.

As to how they work it is very simple. There is a lid on the top. You open it and dump the feed in the hopper. It is a gravity feed system. As the animal eats the feed drops down keeping the feed available to the animal. Quite simple. Only problems are with a sweet feed they can get clogged. Pellets work better. Straight corn flows well.

I kinda meant what they look like inside thats what I meant to put anyway, (heads a bit foggy still recovering from a hospital issue)

So they basicly have a trough one side of that sheet you can see on the side that gets refilled by feed passing through at a gap at the bottom, kind of like a U-bend type thingy?

So as the feed gets eaten the gap at the bottom of the hopper controls how much feed moves out into the trough to stop it overflowing am I warm?

Black Forest
10-06-2010, 03:18 PM
No you are not warm...you are red hot!

sconisbee
10-06-2010, 03:24 PM
No you are not warm...you are red hot!

Oh good, that's about the only way I could think of it working but wasn't really sure.

But one lingering question enters my mind... say there's 500kg of feed in the hopper, and that's obviously above the trough so what I don't get really is what stops the whole lot pouring out over spilling the trough edge?

Black Forest
10-06-2010, 03:35 PM
It is the weight of the feed that sort of clogs the opening. As the animal eats away the feed it frees up some and flows to clog again. Not very scientific explanation I know! Most times there is an adjustable gate to regulate the flow. Drier feeds need a smaller opening to keep it form overrunning.

One thing to be sure of is to anchor the feeder to a slab or they will overturn it.

sconisbee
10-06-2010, 03:40 PM
Oooh ok that makes sense, I figured it would just be more complicated i just have a habbit of over thinking things.

So in theory if the design were to allow for the gap to be fully adjustable, one could fill it while it was closed then adjust it until just the right amount of feed came through? if so that would be easy enough to design, at least its not me that has to build it:D i don't build things that big:p

Black Forest
10-06-2010, 03:46 PM
And I don't build things that small!

sconisbee
10-06-2010, 03:59 PM
And I don't build things that small!
:D the biggest thing I built last week was a Mirror clamp for a sextant, sort of a hollow 3d H shape 0.4mm wall from solid brass cube that was 1" by 3/8 by 3/4
in fact I think that's the biggest thing I have build in ages.

Ill try and remember to snap a pick of the prototype one I made when I find it, the finished article has already left

camdigger
10-06-2010, 04:01 PM
Oooh ok that makes sense, I figured it would just be more complicated i just have a habbit of over thinking things.

So in theory if the design were to allow for the gap to be fully adjustable, one could fill it while it was closed then adjust it until just the right amount of feed came through? if so that would be easy enough to design, at least its not me that has to build it:D i don't build things that big:p

We used to build them out of lumber. I've seen of all sizes, from ones that hold a quart or so to feed the shop cat to ones that hold 500 - 1000 Bu of mixed feed in a cattle feed lot.

Because the granulated feed has an "angle of repose" that makes the feed stack up out of the slot along the bottom. The troughs are usually 3 or 4 times as wide as the base of the feed "stack" so it doesn't run onto the ground unless the animals are particularly sloppy.

These feeders are also known as "self feeders" as the animals eat until they're satified. Because of this, they are a poor choice for dogs as dogs tend to eat until they either can't hold anymore or the food is gone. Moreso if there is more than one dog present.

Some straight ground grain (wheat and barley) is too hot for animals unused to the rich feed, so the grain is often mixed with grains like oats to make a more modest feed. Chopped hay or straw is used to add bulk and stretch the hotter grain too. Adding the hay and straw can lead to bridging issues. It was part of the daily routine to use a dump rake tooth ( a bent rod) to reach up inside and free the bridged feed.

Evan
10-06-2010, 04:02 PM
How the feeder works: A little trick to try. Take a soda straw and find a pen or other rod that just fits inside it. Put the pen into the straw halfway. Turn the straw so it is pointing open hole up and fill it with salt. Then try to push the salt out of the straw with the pen. Over the sink is a good spot when you finally decide to pour the salt out. :D

camdigger
10-06-2010, 04:15 PM
FWIW, some bird feeders work the same way.
We had one that had plexiglass sides set in angled dado slots in plywood ends.
http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.azwoodman.com/woodstore/birds/birdfeeder2-lg.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.azwoodman.com/plans-for-birds.html&h=312&w=400&sz=19&tbnid=kSrACS8vbjYROM:&tbnh=97&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbird%2Bfeeders%2Bplans&zoom=1&q=bird+feeders+plans&hl=en&usg=__i1_SPtIw9PN-jeiWX3XBwYRTjIU=&sa=X&ei=EtmsTK-VIYqosAOAocXYDA&ved=0CDIQ9QEwBg
It sat on a post in the yard within the line of sight of a kitchen window at my Mom's house.

TO see how to build one just imagine scaling this up...http://www.mybackyardplans.com/howtobuildabirdfeeder.php

MrDan
10-06-2010, 05:46 PM
I've raised beef cattle all my life. I agree with everything said here. It's not rocket surgery, most stuff built for cows is very simple. I nice advantage of the unit you have shown is there is little room for the cow to get into the feeder with their feet. Don't ask me why they want to talk in their food, but they'll do it if there is room. One thing to keep in mind, you're not building for a 1200lb cow, you're building for 5000-7000 pounds of cow because the four or five behind the cow will push her into the unit. I've got plenty of bent metal to prove it.

The adjustable system is nice if your customer/friend is switching feeds. It's also nice so you can tune the unit if they only use one feed since you don't really have hard specs to know how big of a gap. While you're doing work for free, feel free to build a couple for me too, they sure are nicer than what I have! :)

wierdscience
10-06-2010, 11:50 PM
I've raised beef cattle all my life. I agree with everything said here. It's not rocket surgery, most stuff built for cows is very simple. I nice advantage of the unit you have shown is there is little room for the cow to get into the feeder with their feet. Don't ask me why they want to talk in their food, but they'll do it if there is room. )

Heh,you got that right,they seem to be happiest when they can stomp they're food in the ground.

We used to take advantage of that when packing the bottom of a new pond.Just put out the hay in the pond bottom and it would be hard packed a filling with water in two weeks flat:)

Evan
10-07-2010, 09:24 AM
most stuff built for cows is very simple.

Understatement time I see. :D

Any animal that can be convinced that it is looking at a cattle guard when you paint stripes on the road deserves to be eaten. The only thing dumber is a chicken. Lots of cattle around here. The cattle population exceeds the human population in this county by about three to one.

Example of dumb chicken: :D

http://metalshopborealis.ca/pics/catmafia.jpg

Black Forest
10-07-2010, 09:48 AM
Most people start calling animals dumb just after they have been outsmarted by one!

People always ask me if I think horses are smart or sheep, cows, goats, on on on. My answer is a horse is as smart as a horse needs to be.

I have always done very well in any competition involving working livestock. Sheepdog trials, cutting with horses. The reason being I pretty much know what an animal is going to do before the animal knows what it is going to do. So I put my self in the right place ahead of time to influence the animal. Many times I have loaded wild cattle in a trailer in the middle of a several section pasture alone with only my dogs to help. Usually I prefer to be the only human.

Evan
10-07-2010, 12:21 PM
Grass eaters tend to be dumb but Horses are a major exception to that, probably because they aren't ruminants. Horses are one of the very few herbivores that can be taught to look up. They also have different vision than ruminants. Ruminants such as sheep, goats and cattle have dichromatic vision that is sensitive to blue and green but not red. Horses are also dichromatic but can see blue well and green/red as a single color range similar to a human with red-green colour blindness.

This suggests that they are evolutionarily more evolved than the ruminants and have a larger area of the brain devoted to visual processing, like higher species.

Chickens however can live without a head. :eek:

http://ixian.ca/pics7/mike.jpg

http://www.miketheheadlesschicken.org/index.php

Black Forest
10-07-2010, 01:04 PM
Paging the OP......I think we have hijacked your thread.....if this is not OK with you just say so and I will post comments regarding cows, horses, and headless chickens elsewhere!

Evan
10-07-2010, 01:49 PM
I think the original question was adequately answered. Now it's about farm animals. :D

camdigger
10-07-2010, 02:15 PM
How the feeder works: A little trick to try. Take a soda straw and find a pen or other rod that just fits inside it. Put the pen into the straw halfway. Turn the straw so it is pointing open hole up and fill it with salt. Then try to push the salt out of the straw with the pen. Over the sink is a good spot when you finally decide to pour the salt out. :D


Not the way these work, BTW.

A more accurate illustration would be to pour salt into a funnel resting on a countertop or cutting board. Lift the funnel up a short distance (1/4" or so) and hold it there. The salt will run out and form a little pile under the end of the funnel and eventually reach the end of the funnel and stop running out ( I said short distance above, right?). With a free hand, scrape a little of the salt in the pile under the funnel away (representing the animal eating the feed), more material will flow out of the funnel until the end is again choked off by the pile. When the funnel empties, you add more material into the top of the funnel.

Repeat.

Black Forest
10-07-2010, 02:16 PM
What is for me as a horse trainer important to know is the difference in how animals that get eaten by other animals see. Animals that have their eyes on the side of their head so they can see a predator approaching from behind have monocular vision as opposed to the predators which have their eyes in front and have binocular vision. They see the world differently than us humans(predators). And according to my experience and in talking with equine ophthalmologists horses see the world in two pictures and important to me is if they see something with one eye it doesn't really register in the brain in a way that if they then see the object with the other eye it is as if they never saw it before. I noticed this when I was very young and would ride by something repeatedly as say a barrel on the outside of the riding arena. Finally the horse became OK with the barrel and payed it no attention. Until I turned around and went the other way and they were seeing the barrel with the other eye. They acted as if they never had seen it before. This puzzled me for years and finally I asked a equine veterinarian and he referred me to a equine eye doctor. This doctor explained to me about how horses see things and how they get registered in their brain. We as humans would call the horse dumb because they had seen the scary thing before when in actuality the memory of the item doesn't cross over to the memory recorded by the other eye.

MrDan
10-07-2010, 03:39 PM
What is for me as a horse trainer important to know is the difference in how animals that get eaten by other animals see. Animals that have their eyes on the side of their head so they can see a predator approaching from behind have monocular vision as opposed to the predators which have their eyes in front and have binocular vision. They see the world differently than us humans(predators). And according to my experience and in talking with equine ophthalmologists horses see the world in two pictures and important to me is if they see something with one eye it doesn't really register in the brain in a way that if they then see the object with the other eye it is as if they never saw it before. I noticed this when I was very young and would ride by something repeatedly as say a barrel on the outside of the riding arena. Finally the horse became OK with the barrel and payed it no attention. Until I turned around and went the other way and they were seeing the barrel with the other eye. They acted as if they never had seen it before. This puzzled me for years and finally I asked a equine veterinarian and he referred me to a equine eye doctor. This doctor explained to me about how horses see things and how they get registered in their brain. We as humans would call the horse dumb because they had seen the scary thing before when in actuality the memory of the item doesn't cross over to the memory recorded by the other eye.

I can barely remember peoples names now. I sure don't want to have to imprint them twice. It ain't easy being a horse it seems.

BF, I've never heard that before but I too have wondered why our horses would spook over something that's been there long enough they should be used to it. Interesting.

Black Forest
10-07-2010, 04:10 PM
The most important part of the eye separation is horses are with their eyes as we are with our hands. Either left or right eyed. The first thing I do when I start to work with a horse is to determine which eye is dominant. Then I work on bringing up the less dominant eye. This work takes place in the round pen.

Evan
10-07-2010, 07:23 PM
Not the way these work, BTW.


You missed the point. The salt can't be pushed out for the same reason that the feed doesn't flow out freely. It acts in some ways like a fluid but with discrete frictional properties. The pressure of the feed above is distributed to the sides just like the salt in the straw. That is what prevents it from flowing until some space is created below in to which the feed can fall. That releases the side pressure in a cascade until the feeder choke point is full again.

Most any granular material will behave the same way as long as the ratio of the particle size to the gap size is below a certain limit. That limit is highly dependent on the amount of friction the particles have. Salt has a very high degree of friction because the crystals are cubic. Round objects have almost no such tendency to stick.

Evan
10-07-2010, 08:32 PM
Bruce,

Apparently horses have do have stereo vision. That has been proved in a number of ways. It explains why they are able to navigate with blinkers on.

Your Old Dog
10-07-2010, 10:15 PM
Haven't read the entire thread. Heres a variation of what you want to build. Scan down the page and you'll see an inside view. Note the separator at the bottom. Good luck

http://www.iowafarmequipment.com/hs_cableguard_feeder.html

camdigger
10-07-2010, 10:52 PM
You missed the point. The salt can't be pushed out for the same reason that the feed doesn't flow out freely. It acts in some ways like a fluid but with discrete frictional properties. The pressure of the feed above is distributed to the sides just like the salt in the straw. That is what prevents it from flowing until some space is created below in to which the feed can fall. That releases the side pressure in a cascade until the feeder choke point is full again.

Most any granular material will behave the same way as long as the ratio of the particle size to the gap size is below a certain limit. That limit is highly dependent on the amount of friction the particles have. Salt has a very high degree of friction because the crystals are cubic. Round objects have almost no such tendency to stick.

Still not the way it works...

IMHO, it has more to do with 1" sticks of hay and straw mixed as feed dilution/extender as mentioned. Straight ground grain doesn't behave the same, but then you have other issues with bloating, etc from feeds that are too rich.

Black Forest
10-08-2010, 12:17 AM
I am not sure what you mean by stereo vision. So are you in agreement with what I said about the eyes or not?

okmisfit
10-08-2010, 05:35 AM
I see there are no real cattlemen from Oklahoma and Texas offering any suggestions. In order to get a sense of proportion of those we use in real cattle country go to rancherspride.com

Later, OK-Misfit

Black Forest
10-08-2010, 06:23 AM
OKmisfit, you must be from OK because only an Okie would come on here and in their first post insult people. I am referring to your statement of "real cattlemen".

What is it that we posted that you don't agree with? Then I will tell you how many head I run in how many states in USA!

Evan
10-08-2010, 10:55 AM
I am not sure what you mean by stereo vision. So are you in agreement with what I said about the eyes or not?

Yes. But. Horses have a small zone straight ahead that gives them true stereoscopic vision. They are able to perceive depth unlike most grazers. They can bring their eyes together in front to look straight ahead.

http://ixian.ca/pics7/horseface.jpg





I see there are no real cattlemen from Oklahoma and Texas offering any suggestions. In order to get a sense of proportion of those we use in real cattle country ....

One of the largest cattle ranches in North America is just down the road from us here. It's the Gang Ranch. Last I heard it was around 1 million acres. They use aircraft as well as cowboys for roundup.

By the way, you can fit Texas AND Oklahoma into British Columbia and still have room for a few more states. :D

JCHannum
10-08-2010, 10:56 AM
I am not sure what you mean by stereo vision. So are you in agreement with what I said about the eyes or not?

Perhaps he was referring to binocular vision. Horses have both binocular and monocular vision, and can select between them depending on the circumstances. Monocular vision is the default, normal mode, but horses can shift to binocular mode when the need arises.

I see no reason not to believe that horses, or any other animal for that matter, would not have a dominant eye.

Arcane
10-08-2010, 11:50 AM
I see no reason not to believe that horses, or any other animal for that matter, would not have a dominant eye.

Yep! Probably everybody has a dominant eye, some more so than others. :D
http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/real-life-popeye-untooned.jpg

J. Randall
10-08-2010, 09:46 PM
OKmisfit, you must be from OK because only an Okie would come on here and in their first post insult people. I am referring to your statement of "real cattlemen".

What is it that we posted that you don't agree with? Then I will tell you how many head I run in how many states in USA!

So how is your post any different than what you are accusing him of, coming back with a blanket insult to anyone from Okla.?
James

okmisfit
10-08-2010, 10:45 PM
Apologies to all who were offended by my "real cattlemen" comment. I knew I would rattle someone door. I am a slow reader and waded through most of the pertinent information and found it to be helpful to anyone taking on this job. There are some points I think are important for a project like this and they are as follows:
Ground height should be near 24 inches (what ever that converts to in metric) There should be a divider at the bottom of the feed hopper to keep feed from accumulating out of reach of the cow which reduces spoilage.
There should be an agitator which runs the length of the feeder deal with the bridging of the feed substance without climbing up on the feeder to knock it down.
Sliding gates that regulate the flow of material out to the trough and which open high enough to allow cleaning.
Finally 3/4 inch ( 19 mm) holes at each of he trough allow water to drain. That is all that I can think of regarding this project. I hope it is helpful

Black Forest
10-09-2010, 01:33 AM
So how is your post any different than what you are accusing him of, coming back with a blanket insult to anyone from Okla.?
James

Mainly because I am originally from Texas and therefore because you are from Oklahoma you are surely aware of the small rivalry between the two states! The back and forth banter all in mostly good fun. I lived very close to the red river on the border between the two states so maybe it was/is a regional thing.

So being from Texas it is "legal" for me to take a poke at an Okie!

J. Randall
10-10-2010, 01:45 AM
Mainly because I am originally from Texas and therefore because you are from Oklahoma you are surely aware of the small rivalry between the two states! The back and forth banter all in mostly good fun. I lived very close to the red river on the border between the two states so maybe it was/is a regional thing.

So being from Texas it is "legal" for me to take a poke at an Okie!

Black, yes I have been aware of it all my life, but never indulged in it myself, no interest in sports whatsoever , unless it was kids, or now grand kids playing locally. I have lots of family here, and in Texas and think equally well of all of them. I am not offended, however you meant it, and would not have even mentioned it had you taken a poke at him individually. I would not have had a clue where you originated, from reading your posts, most of which I enjoy.
James

Black Forest
10-10-2010, 04:23 AM
I was not referring to sports. I was referring to everything! And I am glad you were not offended. But you are still from OK so you still deserve to get a poke from a Texan. That my friend is just how the world works!

J. Randall
10-11-2010, 01:23 AM
[QUOTE=Black Forest]I was not referring to sports. I was referring to everything! And I am glad you were not offended. But you are still from OK so you still deserve to get a poke from a Texan. That my friend is just how the world works![/QUOTE

Must have been a regional thing as you suggested then, as I have lived within 60 miles of Texas most of my life, and the sports thing was all I could think of.
James

Black Forest
10-11-2010, 03:03 PM
Well Mr. Randall I don't see why you don't just travel 61 miles and be done with it! Where is Vici? I lived just East of Gainesville.

J. Randall
10-11-2010, 11:53 PM
Well Mr. Randall I don't see why you don't just travel 61 miles and be done with it! Where is Vici? I lived just East of Gainesville.

I don't really get your meaning on the first statement, but I have been to lots of different areas of Texas, don't think I was ever right in your neck of the woods though, it is big place.

In answer to your question, I live in the NW corner of the body of the state of Okla. About 60 miles from Texas or Kansas. We don't have any rivalry with them either.
James