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ken5881
10-07-2010, 09:34 AM
Hello all,

I'm Ken, a longtime lurker, and I just joined up.

It's easy in my area to find good machine tools, and so I am thinking about finally building my 'dream shop'.

I'm wondering what is the very best true industrial manual mill? I'm looking for what would be considered a mill equivalent to a Monarch 10EE lathe.

Basically, what would you buy if you were given a chance? Bridgeport, Tree,
or 'other'?

Thank you,
ken

MrDan
10-07-2010, 09:42 AM
Hello all,

I'm Ken, a longtime lurker, and I just joined up.

It's easy in my area to find good machine tools, and so I am thinking about finally building my 'dream shop'.

I'm wondering what is the very best true industrial manual mill? I'm looking for what would be considered a mill equivalent to a Monarch 10EE lathe.

Basically, what would you buy if you were given a chance? Bridgeport, Tree,
or 'other'?

Thank you,
ken

First, tell us where this cornucopia of high end tools is. I may want to move there, or at least visit!

I don't have the experience to give you real advice, but I've never felt bad having a Bridgeport. I bought on name brand, and condition of course.

JCHannum
10-07-2010, 10:05 AM
A Deckel FP1 with all the bells & whistles would be a good starting point.

http://www.lathes.co.uk/deckel/index.html

MichaelP
10-07-2010, 10:12 AM
Frankly, I don't think you should choose the absolutely best mill. Since you're buying used and, presumably, going to put it in a home shop, I'd suggest something that is good yet easy to find parts and tools for and have them more or less affordable.

In this respect, I'd vote for a Bridgy in a decent condition with power feeds and DRO.

Toolguy
10-07-2010, 10:22 AM
A Deckel is really and truly a high end machine, but I would find it very inconvenient not to have a quill for drilling, reaming and tapping. The Bridgeport style of mill became the popular one out of a lot of designs for a good reason. It's quick and easy to do the most used operations involved in milling and quick and easy to adjust and change over. There are a lot of copies to choose from, some may be better than B'port, but that is a rather subjective call. Whatever you get, a DRO will make all your projects more accurate and more enjoyable.

daryl bane
10-07-2010, 10:29 AM
Geez, what fun. My Tree is hard to beat, and I think much stouter that a B'Port, but a Deckel FP2 in the corner... or how about a B&S Omniversal..or a Abene...or a Huron...now were talking.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/brufsupbane/huronnu4universalmill8101bp.jpg

jep24601
10-07-2010, 10:29 AM
Sounds like you could have a few machines - how much space do you have? Monster Cincinnatti horizontal mills are going dirt cheap and would make a nice second mill.

lazlo
10-07-2010, 10:43 AM
Geez, what fun. My Tree is hard to beat, and I think much stouter that a B'Port, but a Deckel FP2 in the corner... or how about a B&S Omniversal..now we're talking.

The Excello 602. Bridgport on steroids -- massive knee, oversized quill, the head extension joint done right.

I posted this comparison awhile ago:



Deckel FP-1 1200 lbs X: 11.8" Y: 6.3" Z: 13.4"
Bridgeport J-Head: 1900 lbs
Beaver Mk II VBRP: 2138 lbs
Tree 2UVR: 2500 lbs
Lagun FTV-1: 2750 lbs
Excello 602: 2900 lbs
Deckel FP-2: 3300 lbs
Wells-Index 860: 3600 lbs
TOS FNK 25: 3740 lbs
Deckel FP-3: 3750 lbs


The FP-1 is a tiny machine, with a tiny (and weird) work envelope. If you're looking for an uber machine, the FP-2/3 is more equivalent to the "toolroom" verticals.

The other ultimate mill, IMHO, is the Index 860 -- horizontal/vertical. It's massive, beautifully made, and the horizontal spindle acts as a riser for the vertical spindle.

JCHannum
10-07-2010, 10:45 AM
The Deckel does have a quill, but, the dream shop would have dedicated drilling and tapping machines as well.

rklopp
10-07-2010, 11:29 AM
I have an Aciera F4 next to my 10EE. They are in the same league as far as I am concerned. The colors even match. The F4 is bigger and heavier than a Deckel FP1 but slightly smaller than an FP2. My F4 has 40-taper spindles, but 30-taper was standard. The F4 vertical quill is the slickest I've seen on a mill. 40-taper is way, way better than R-8 in terms of rigidity, and tooling is widely available and cheap on eBay.

In my mind, the uber-machine to have next to your 10EE is a Deckel FPxNC with Dialog 4 control and a flip-head style vertical head (6300 RPM). Despite being a 1986 design, it is still close to state of the art for onesy/twosy type jobs. You can buy a brand new Kunzmann, but it'll set you back the price of a small house.

ken5881
10-07-2010, 11:46 AM
To answer MrDan's question...

I live in central WI, within easy trailering distance of Milwaukee, Chicago, or Minneapolis, and Detroit is across Lake Michigan from me. Of course, I'd go farther for the 'right one'.

Yes, I am thinking about filling a home shop. I can't think of a better time to find good tools due to the economy, and if I'm going to do this right I'm looking for the absolute best I can find.

What would I like to find? Right now I'm looking for both a vertical and horizontal mill, built anytime since WWII. DRO's and power feeds are not that important to me. Accuracy and quality is, though. Bridgeports are fairly common around here, and I have tried a Tree vertical mill but it wasn't in very good condition. I saw an Excello awhile back but it had multiple issues.

Thank you,
Ken

MuellerNick
10-07-2010, 12:49 PM
That would be a Deckel FP3. The FP1 is too small. Of course it would be completely refurbished by Franz Singer.

But I have to admit, I always liked the Huron head.


Nick

rklopp
10-07-2010, 12:55 PM
DRO's and power feeds are not that important to me.
Thank you,
Ken

Why no DRO? I'd rather have a good DRO on a so-so machine than no DRO on the nicest manual mill there is. Have you ever used a DRO? Once you do, you'll never look back. If you're OK with buying a best-in-class machine, then I'd guess you have $$$ for a DRO.

MuellerNick
10-07-2010, 02:03 PM
Once you do, you'll never look back.

No, I think he is right. No stinking DRO.
But don't trust him when he says that we all life in the same century.


Nick

KiloBravo
10-07-2010, 02:21 PM
Why no DRO? I'd rather have a good DRO on a so-so machine than no DRO on the nicest manual mill there is. Have you ever used a DRO? Once you do, you'll never look back. If you're OK with buying a best-in-class machine, then I'd guess you have $$$ for a DRO.

I putzed around on my Sq Column mill for a year or so and finally mounted a DRO, man I will never look back. I love having the DRO on the mill.

macona
10-07-2010, 02:42 PM
Why manual?

Dr Stan
10-07-2010, 02:51 PM
Why manual?

A lot of the time one can knock out a simple part on a manual before you can finish writing the program for a CNC. Much of it depends on just how complex the geometry is of the parts one makes.

As to my dream mill it is a Lagun. Yes the Deckels are impressive, but I've always preferred the Lagun over any other brand.

Milacron of PM
10-07-2010, 03:23 PM
Geez, what fun. My Tree is hard to beat, and I think much stouter that a B'Port, but a Deckel FP2 in the corner...

FWIW, the ultimate manual FP2 -

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/deckel211.jpg

Moving quill in both vertical and horizontal. This one equipped with universal table that locates via crank side to side/front to back, and (via 3 speed gearbox) rotates 360...complete with internal encoder that displays angle on DRO and integral indicators to retram table back to square quickly. Variable speed feed via integral DC drive, all geared spindles, no. 40 taper.

MrDan
10-07-2010, 03:31 PM
Why no DRO? I'd rather have a good DRO on a so-so machine than no DRO on the nicest manual mill there is. Have you ever used a DRO? Once you do, you'll never look back. If you're OK with buying a best-in-class machine, then I'd guess you have $$$ for a DRO.

You can add a DRO to an uber machine, but it's a lot harder to make an uber machine out of a so so machine with a good DRO. I'm speaking of adding back the metal that was worn off. I agree, get the right machine, then bolt on a DRO if you so desire.

beanbag
10-07-2010, 03:53 PM
Lazlo,

I am surprised you know so much about "old American iron" and other large and burly manual machines. I would have thought a hi tech guy like yourself would espouse the benefits of a modern computer controlled VMC, e.g. Haas. Perhaps you machine for therapeutic reasons and to get away from staring at computers all day? ;)

EVguru
10-07-2010, 03:58 PM
How about a new Deckel FP4M?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Deckel-FP4M-Aktiv-Frasmaschine-Heidenhain-Neuwertig-/380275979561?pt=Industriemaschinen&hash=item588a36f529

lazlo
10-07-2010, 04:09 PM
"Like New"

But still, gorgeous machine! I'll have to search in my sofa cushions for the €35K Euro :)

gary350
10-07-2010, 04:11 PM
Get a Bridgeport mill. I see a lot of them for sale from $800 to $1500.

If it has a digital read out, vise, collets, etc then it will cost more.

macona
10-07-2010, 04:15 PM
A lot of the time one can knock out a simple part on a manual before you can finish writing the program for a CNC. Much of it depends on just how complex the geometry is of the parts one makes.

As to my dream mill it is a Lagun. Yes the Deckels are impressive, but I've always preferred the Lagun over any other brand.

Thats an urban myth. A machine with good conversational will make one offs faster than a manual.

Black_Moons
10-07-2010, 04:20 PM
I vote the IH mill! because its what I have.. and only costs $2000~
And is a good size for HSM.. and has insane travel at 30x12x19 XYZ (Z goes from 3" to 22" from table)

And at only 1000lbs, You can actualy get it into a basement.. kinda.. sorta :)

MuellerNick
10-07-2010, 04:20 PM
Here (http://www.singer-werkzeugmaschinen.de/Index.html), you get Deckels better than new (or at least as good as they once left the factory). Price? If you have to ask, you can't afford it. :D


Nick

.RC.
10-07-2010, 05:16 PM
Rambaudi

Anayak

Fexac

but yea CNC on a mill will enable you to do so much more... In fact NC was invented for milling work...

Cheeseking
10-07-2010, 11:57 PM
I was too busy at work today and forgot to bid!! Someone got a nice one. :mad:
http://auction.hilcoind.com/Bidding.taf?_function=detail&Auction_uid1=1950680

morehelium
10-08-2010, 02:56 AM
German Deckel rebuilder FPS is now making new machines identical to the FP1 and FP3 models.

http://www.fps-service.de/DatenbankAbfragen/KontaktMaschinen.php?Id=103

http://www.fps-service.de/DatenbankAbfragen/MaschinenlisteFPS.php

site is in German only, so no whining. Google translate works nicely...

Chris

Dr Stan
10-08-2010, 10:24 AM
Thats an urban myth. A machine with good conversational will make one offs faster than a manual.

We'll just have to agree to disagree without being disagreeable.

gnm109
10-08-2010, 10:39 AM
I would try to find a Bridgeport or Clone. There are lots of pieces of tooling available on eBay and elsewhere are reasonable prices. The accuracy is excellent for a home shop making limited runs and can be made even better with a DRO. A small rotary phase converter, some R8 collets and holders, some parallels, a bunch of end mills and you're on your way.

I paid $1,500 for a 1987 Webb 4 VH and spent another $900 to convert it back to manual. It's a winner...oh yeah, the Mitutoyo DRO was extra as was the no-name Z axis scale.

Before anyone attacks me for not buying a real Bridgeport, there are none available anywhere around me at a reaosnable price. There was one 1960's model with MT2 fittings at a shop for $4,000 (totally worn out) and another one that I tried to get on Craigs list for $3,500. It looked nice in the one photo provided but the owner wanted me to pay before I could even look at it. Sure.

Good mills are few and far between in my area. I looked for near ten years and finally jumped on this one which was 150 miles away.

Go Bridgeport or clone. :)

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/gnm109/Machinery/WebbMill1209.jpg

Arthur.Marks
10-08-2010, 11:46 AM
In all honesty, I am of the perspective that the OP is looking for a rare find he can be proud of. Nothing wrong with that. Personally, in that category for me, is a Steinel mill that I've drooled over for awhile now. Not particularly inexpensive for what it is; but in exceptional shape and truly a rare find... if you like that sorta thing ;) http://www.plazamachinery.com/steinel.html Besides, then he can hunt for the matching horizontal model to place next to it like this aficionado: Vertical (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trafficbikes/4310190415/in/set-72157617722145715/),Horizontal (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trafficbikes/4310191403/in/set-72157617722145715/) :D

As a bonus, I would rate it on the high end of possible to still get it into an inaccessible space (i.e. basement). I don't know what the OP is working with in that regard.

lazlo
10-08-2010, 11:55 AM
In all honesty, I am of the perspective that the OP is looking for a rare find he can be proud of. Nothing wrong with that.

No doubt. One thing I've found, though, is that "Machine Karma" is a funny thing: an über machine usually falls in your lap when it's least convenient -- like when you've just finishing buying, rigging and setting up a "lesser" mill.

Folks with Iron Fever (that's every red-blooded male, right? :)) usually have a mental list of ultimate machines -- you just have to be ready and willing to pounce when something pops up on Craigslist or Ebay or ...

gnm109
10-08-2010, 12:47 PM
No doubt. One thing I've found, though, is that "Machine Karma" is a funny thing: an über machine usually falls in your lap when it's least convenient -- like when you've just finishing buying, rigging and setting up a "lesser" mill.

Folks with Iron Fever (that's every red-blooded male, right? :)) usually have a mental list of ultimate machines -- you just have to be ready and willing to pounce when something pops up on Craigslist or Ebay or ...


That's quite true. When I heard about the one I bought, I had one day to lock it in and pick it up. You have to be ready to lock and load.

.

EddyCurr
10-08-2010, 02:12 PM
No doubt. One thing I've found, though, is that "Machine Karma" is
a funny thing: an über machine usually falls in your lap when it's least
convenient -- like when you've just finishing buying, rigging and setting
up a "lesser" mill.

Folks with Iron Fever (that's every red-blooded male, right? :)) usually
have a mental list of ultimate machines -- you just have to be ready and
willing to pounce when something pops up on Craigslist or Ebay or ...
... at an auction.


http://www.slalom4me.com/imaged_a01/jpg/other/tools/mills/2010.10.08_XLO_01.jpg

For a few hundred dollars ...

.

KEJR
10-08-2010, 08:10 PM
That Steinel is purdy, and its only 2.5 hours from me.... Too bad I already have a bridgeport and don't need to spend $3k right now. It seems like a sturdy but small and light machine and has controls located like a bridgeport, as opposed to the "opposite" controls of a deckel.

KEJR

hardtail
10-09-2010, 01:56 AM
... at an auction.


http://www.slalom4me.com/imaged_a01/jpg/other/tools/mills/2010.10.08_XLO_01.jpg

For a few hundred dollars ...

.

I thought this was about buying a mill not stealing one...........LOL

I've got 2 602's and am picking up a Supermill likely this weekend that makes them look a bit small, all 3 nmtb40 makes tooling simpler..........LOL Jury to report............

MuellerNick
10-09-2010, 04:06 AM
Those Steinels aren't bad at all! Here in Germany, you pay nuts prices for Deckels. You get a similar MAHO or Steinel for half of the price.
If you go a few 1000 km more to the east, you find good quality (ex-) eastern block tools. UMF Ruhla (ex-GDR) or others like TOS or Russian brands (with names hard to remember).


Nick

hardtail
10-09-2010, 05:53 AM
Yes Tos FNK 25.....F'n nice kneemill...........

Russian..........Stanko??

Black Forest
10-09-2010, 07:51 AM
Yes I am still waiting to get my Stanko lathe here.

Reed
10-09-2010, 08:17 AM
Not sure what this thread has in common with the OP's original request, but Steinel caught my eye.

I have a SH4d (horizontal) with the vertical milling head (FVK3). It is in good running shape. But with vertical mills in the shop, I seldom use it.

There are more around in the Eastern US than I thought. I know a fellow in West Virginia that has both the horizontal and vertical models (SH4d & SV4d).

I snapped a pic of it the first time it entered the shop and powered up.

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff3/rstreifthau/Steinel1stUseFrontTopReedface-s.jpg

- Reed
Raleigh, NC


In all honesty, I am of the perspective that the OP is looking for a rare find he can be proud of. Nothing wrong with that. Personally, in that category for me, is a Steinel mill that I've drooled over for awhile now. Not particularly inexpensive for what it is; but in exceptional shape and truly a rare find... if you like that sorta thing ;) http://www.plazamachinery.com/steinel.html Besides, then he can hunt for the matching horizontal model to place next to it like this aficionado: Vertical (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trafficbikes/4310190415/in/set-72157617722145715/),Horizontal (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trafficbikes/4310191403/in/set-72157617722145715/) :D

As a bonus, I would rate it on the high end of possible to still get it into an inaccessible space (i.e. basement). I don't know what the OP is working with in that regard.

lazlo
10-09-2010, 09:47 AM
Those Steinels aren't bad at all! Here in Germany, you pay nuts prices for Deckels. You get a similar MAHO or Steinel for half of the price.

I've never seen a Maho in person. How is the quality/fit/finish of the Maho's compared to a Deckel?

Toolguy
10-09-2010, 10:09 AM
The Mahos I've seen were very very good.

TGTool
10-09-2010, 10:36 AM
<snip>
Besides, then he can hunt for the matching horizontal model to place next to it like this aficionado: Vertical (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trafficbikes/4310190415/in/set-72157617722145715/),Horizontal (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trafficbikes/4310191403/in/set-72157617722145715/) :D

As a bonus, I would rate it on the high end of possible to still get it into an inaccessible space (i.e. basement). I don't know what the OP is working with in that regard.

That's a pretty interesting setup he's got on the vertical. And what's the machine in the background? It's got a similar style and finish but some very unusually shaped components and I can't quite make out what they're doing. It looks a little like a knee and table on its left side, but rather different structure where you'd find a horizontal spindle or an overarm.

lazlo
10-09-2010, 10:45 AM
That's a pretty interesting setup he's got on the vertical. And what's the machine in the background?

That's an Abene VHF-3. Gorgeous machine -- another one of the uber toolroom mills :)

MuellerNick
10-09-2010, 11:49 AM
How is the quality/fit/finish of the Maho's compared to a Deckel?

The Deckel hype is to some extend just a hype. The old Deckels, especially the FP-1 is really a nice and incredibly flexible machine. But small! Well built (but loud with all the gears). They do have such a good reputation, because they were used in every tool making shop. With all the accessories, they are worth a lot and still make good one off work (repairs etc.). High speed head, slotting head, punch milling accessory, coupled rotary axis for helical milling and the table that can be rotated in 3 axes. Alone the table can save a lot of setup time. Also, Deckel permanently made modifications for the better. They didn't produce a model 10 years unchanged.

The competitors were not so flexible so they don't have the reputation. MAHO came later than Deckel (was it in the 70ies?). Still they are very good machines, maybe with a bit less finesse. If you move more to the east, they get a bit cruder. More like russian tractors. But still rock solid, good machines. I saw a Matra lathe at a friend, really something to be proud of, nice machine. But he didn't want to sell. :mad: I advised him to keep here, so I'll get here in maybe 5 years. :D

Also, the Deckel was the driving motor after WW II to bring our economy back on its feet. Compur (Camera iris) and Kugelfischer (mechanical injectors) were a Deckel child.


Nick

KEJR
10-09-2010, 07:31 PM
Nick,

If you think Deckels are overpriced and hard to find in Germany, try over here! I thought every shop in Germany was filled with those machines? I guess a machine can be overhyped even in its place of origin.

Over here, the southbend lathes are WAAAYY overhyped, but at least the Deckel machines mostly stand up to their reputation. And before anyone says the Southbends are not overhyped consider that 70 year old lathes in need of work go for $2k USD. Also the chucks on ebay made by cushman get $50-$100 more when they say "southbend chuck" or something like that!

My place of employment has some deckels and they just sit there most of the time. The machinists are used to the bridgeport machines and have a hard time going back and forth to the Deckels. The only other guy in our shop who used Deckels elsewhere was a friend of mine who went over to Germany! I'd love to buy one, but I doubt they would sell.

The only thing I don't like about the Deckels are the ones with the large external electrical boxes. It would probably be easy to rewire similar to a bridgeport, however.

So, yeah, if you had a Deckel in your home shop, you would have a sweet machine IMO.

KEJR

lazlo
10-09-2010, 10:41 PM
My place of employment has some deckels and they just sit there most of the time. The machinists are used to the bridgeport machines and have a hard time going back and forth to the Deckels.

Mickey_D had a Deckel FP-1 for awhile, and when you see one in person, it doesn't live up to the hype generated mostly by the small crew at PracticalMachinist. To be honest, I don't think any machine could live up to that level of hype :)

The FP-1 is definitley a nicely made machine -- basically the same build quality as a Hardinge. But they're tiny, and like Nick says the gearbox is loud. The weirdest part is that you have to run it from the right side, looking down the ways. If you're used to working from the front, like most vertical turret mills, it's very awkward.

Then there's the weird tall and skinny work envelop.

Don't get me wrong -- I'd love to have a Deckel FP-2 or FP-3, and the prices over here have crashed in the last couple of years. But it would take an awful lot to pry my Excello 602 from my cold, dead fingers ;)

MuellerNick
10-10-2010, 04:49 AM
If you're used to working from the front, like most vertical turret mills, it's very awkward.

The very first mill I worked with was a Deckel FP-1. So working from the right is absolutely the standard. ;) My MAHO 700C is no exception.
Yes, if you see a FP-1 standing besides a mill, the FP is small. A FP-3 is much bigger. The FPs were never intended for massive chip removal, but for tool making. So they are not as beefy as others with the same travel. And yes, the travels at the FP-1 are small. But when you remove the table, you can clamp parts to the chest and suddenly the work envelope gets "huge".


I thought every shop in Germany was filled with those machines? I guess a machine can be overhyped even in its place of origin.

Yes, and they do sell for big $$$. If overhyped is seen from the POV of price, yes. For quality and versatility, no.
Hey, it's a Deckel. Maybe the most copied mill in the world. It's like having a Porsche when $brand has the same specs.


Nick

Northernsinger
10-10-2010, 07:21 AM
By the way nobody here but lazlo seems to promote the Excelo 602 but I have one also and think well of it. My next door neighbor has a Bridgeport and the two machines are, I don't know, about 25 feet apart and the comparison is instructive. First, it's obvious that the Excelo was a Bridgeport derivative design. But it is heavier, newer, stouter and all of them (I think) had on the fly variable spindle speed changes, very handy, and will likely be cheaper to buy.

The New Hampshire job shop this came from had bought the machine new, used it and maintained it. He had three of these, the plain one I wanted, a similar one but refitted with ball screws, steppers, and first generation computer drive (the computers took about as much space as the mill itself) and a double head tracing model. The first two were sold on eBay. I bought the plain one with a 42 inch table, one shot lubrication, a lifetime supply of end mills and slitting saws, a Falcon quick change tooling system, plenty of collets, all the wrenches, a drill chuck arbor mounted and ready for use, a few large Valenite facing mills, an extra drive belt, a manual and the original bill of sale and correspondence, a horizontal head attachment (which I've used and liked), a boring head, a six inch riser block, two six inch vises, and probably a bunch more which I'm forgetting, for $810. I did have to fight with the machine to get it out the tiny door of that oddly built shop, turning the head upside down and taking off the table.

A fellow drove all night from Tennessee to purchase the computer model for a similar price, and was given the the tracer model to take along too. Neither the Grob 24 inch saw nor the DoAll 612 grinder (with coolant and hydraulic feed) sold so when on site I bought them both for 300 each.

The manual I have says this 602 weighs 2500. I'm not much of a machinist, just an interested tinkerer but it seems to be doing a good job for me. By the way I just attended a local shop auction and watched a stout Beaver mill go for around $1000, with a number of tooling items. This looked good, also.

John Stevenson
10-10-2010, 07:58 AM
I vote for TOS,

I'd sooner have a Bridgeport than a Deckel for jobbing work and you all know what i think of Bridgies...........

philbur
10-10-2010, 08:45 AM
It's official then, a Deckel is a bigger POS than a Bridgeport.;)

The big problem with a Deckel is the down time for a professional repaint when you get a small chip in the paintwork. Or the total mental breakdown caused by a ding in the table.:eek:

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x36/philbur/Deckel.jpg

I would have thought that the best jobbing mill (assuming similar capabilities) is the one you know the best.

Phil:)


I vote for TOS,

I'd sooner have a Bridgeport than a Deckel for jobbing work and you all know what i think of Bridgies...........

lazlo
10-10-2010, 10:11 AM
The big problem with a Deckel is the down time for a professional repaint when you get a small chip in the paintwork. Or the total mental breakdown caused by a ding in the table.:eek:

You don't understand Phil -- folks in the US don't actually use their Deckels*. It's a collector's item, and they lose all their value if they have a ding in the paint or, God Forbid, they've been repainted! Likewise, to be an official "DeckelNut" you must collect all the obscure attachments, which also must have perfect paint (or they're not collectable). And the attachments must be stored in the official, collectable Deckel tool cabinet. Must have perfect paint, of course :D


* With the notable exception of Ross (AlfaGTA), who does amazing work on his Deckel FP4-NC.

hardtail
10-10-2010, 10:41 AM
By the way nobody here but lazlo seems to promote the Excelo 602 but I have one also and think well of it. My next door neighbor has a Bridgeport and the two machines are, I don't know, about 25 feet apart and the comparison is instructive. First, it's obvious that the Excelo was a Bridgeport derivative design. But it is heavier, newer, stouter and all of them (I think) had on the fly variable spindle speed changes, very handy, and will likely be cheaper to buy.


The manual I have says this 602 weighs 2500. I'm not much of a machinist, just an interested tinkerer but it seems to be doing a good job for me. By the way I just attended a local shop auction and watched a stout Beaver mill go for around $1000, with a number of tooling items. This looked good, also.

I have 2 and also like them, unfortunately I didn't quite get mine for such little $$$'s as many I see south of the border, on mine one has a riser they both have 49" tables, 2 hp, 40 taper, varaiable speed heads and I believe close to 3000#'s, I also have a spare head that came off a 2 head machine but that spindle is R8.

The Supermill that showing up soon looks to be as much beefier to the Excello as the 602 is to a Bridgeport, 3hp, 10x44 table, and a belt pulley head, quieter but more of a pain to change speeds, a VFD should solve all that. That said if the Excello is a bit more rare the Supermill seems a real oddball. I still like the Tos also as a choice.....I recall alerting Toronto members for one free for the taking........

gnm109
10-10-2010, 11:30 AM
By the way nobody here but lazlo seems to promote the Excelo 602 but I have one also and think well of it. My next door neighbor has a Bridgeport and the two machines are, I don't know, about 25 feet apart and the comparison is instructive. First, it's obvious that the Excelo was a Bridgeport derivative design. But it is heavier, newer, stouter and all of them (I think) had on the fly variable spindle speed changes, very handy, and will likely be cheaper to buy.

The New Hampshire job shop this came from had bought the machine new, used it and maintained it. He had three of these, the plain one I wanted, a similar one but refitted with ball screws, steppers, and first generation computer drive (the computers took about as much space as the mill itself) and a double head tracing model. The first two were sold on eBay. I bought the plain one with a 42 inch table, one shot lubrication, a lifetime supply of end mills and slitting saws, a Falcon quick change tooling system, plenty of collets, all the wrenches, a drill chuck arbor mounted and ready for use, a few large Valenite facing mills, an extra drive belt, a manual and the original bill of sale and correspondence, a horizontal head attachment (which I've used and liked), a boring head, a six inch riser block, two six inch vises, and probably a bunch more which I'm forgetting, for $810. I did have to fight with the machine to get it out the tiny door of that oddly built shop, turning the head upside down and taking off the table.

A fellow drove all night from Tennessee to purchase the computer model for a similar price, and was given the the tracer model to take along too. Neither the Grob 24 inch saw nor the DoAll 612 grinder (with coolant and hydraulic feed) sold so when on site I bought them both for 300 each.

The manual I have says this 602 weighs 2500. I'm not much of a machinist, just an interested tinkerer but it seems to be doing a good job for me. By the way I just attended a local shop auction and watched a stout Beaver mill go for around $1000, with a number of tooling items. This looked good, also.


I don't know where you are since you haven't yet identified your location. You can't be in California. There are no such deals available like you got here.

I've not seen an Excello in my travels. I wonder where they are built?

lazlo
10-10-2010, 11:33 AM
I've not seen an Excello in my travels. I wonder where they are built?

They're Canadian, eh.

Excello went out of business years ago, and the parts and service were bought by the holding company that also owns Cincinnati-Milacron. They're as$holes to deal with, and they don't know anything about the machines.

gnm109
10-10-2010, 11:39 AM
They're Canadian, eh.

Excello went out of business years ago, and the parts and service were bought by the holding company that also owns Cincinnati-Milacron. They're as$holes to deal with, and they don't know anything about the machines.


That's too bad. I've heard good things about the machines themselves.

I got lucky when I bought my Webb. The Webb is a large BP Clone. I said LARGE!. The company is still very much in business with offices and parts depots in Corona, CA and Las Vegas, NV. They are an absolute joy to deal with as well and they have technicians there who answered numerous questions when I was refurbishing my machine from CNC to manual. They have parts for every machine they've ever sold and they are quite reasonable. They also make CNC mills as well as marketing Cadillac lathes.

It's important when purchasing any machine to try to find one that has at least some parts available.

wierdscience
10-10-2010, 11:59 AM
You don't understand Phil -- folks in the US don't actually use their Deckels*. It's a collector's item, and they lose all their value if they have a ding in the paint or, God Forbid, they've been repainted! Likewise, to be an official "DeckelNut" you must collect all the obscure attachments, which also must have perfect paint (or they're not collectable). And the attachments must be stored in the official, collectable Deckel tool cabinet. Must have perfect paint, of course :D


* With the notable exception of Ross (AlfaGTA), who does amazing work on his Deckel FP4-NC.

LOL,I was wondering if anything has ever been made on Dickle:D

willmac
10-10-2010, 12:10 PM
Deckels sure can be pretty. But there are other German pattern manual mills that don't have the same collector following but (in my opinion) are just as good. Because they are not collected and because spares are a scarce, the prices are much lower. Lack of collecter appeal means that you can actually use them without suffering from guilt feelings. This is my Thiel 159 Duplex. It has at least 3 contrasting colours of paint, Heidenhain scales and DRO that came out of the ark and some divots in the table. It was well used when I got it - it came originally from British Aerospace. Even with all that it is still accurate, rigid and extremely versatile. Some people complain that these mills need expensive tooling - not so - just bog standard 40 taper tooling like any other mill. Maybe one day I will get around to repainting it, but I can't really see how that would make it a better mill

I certainly wouldn't exchange it for a new Bridgeport.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o248/moorbrook1860/Thiel003.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o248/moorbrook1860/Thiel004.jpg

wierdscience
10-10-2010, 12:40 PM
I guess if I had my way a dream shop would have two mills.

One a really nice B-port type vertical,the other a big universal.We have one of these at work,it's big,nasty and a PITA to tram the two-plane head in,but when metal must ne removed in a hurry,it's the go to machine.

Polish made JAFO-

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/wierdscience/Stk_2166Polamco.jpg

Liger Zero
10-10-2010, 12:44 PM
I worked at a molding company that had a Deckle mill...

I was permitted to use the bridgeports, the "old" lathe, and the Do-All bandsaw... but on the pain of death most permanent I was NOT permitted to go near the Deckle. Go near the Deckle meant "be on the same side of the room" nor was I permitted to blow chips in that direction.

They did use it though, I observed it in operation one day when the Moldmaker had to repair a bunged up mold core.

ammcoman2
10-10-2010, 07:13 PM
This TOS unit appears to be similar to the Thiel that Wilmac posted. I don't know if it is still for sale and often the Canadian machinery has 575v motors which can be a pain for the HSM unless you are McGyver!

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-tools-equipment-MILLING-MACHINE-TOS-MODEL-FN20-UNIVERSAL-TYPE-FOR-SALE-W0QQAdIdZ216265081

Geoff

KEJR
10-10-2010, 07:56 PM
Why is everyone afraid to use the Deckels? Its a machine not a sports car! :)

Liger Zero
10-10-2010, 07:58 PM
In our case the Deckel was reserved for the mold-maker as the super-accurate go-to mill for mold-work, whereas the bridgeports were for routine stuff.

ecortech
10-10-2010, 08:03 PM
This TOS unit appears to be similar to the Thiel that Wilmac posted. I don't know if it is still for sale and often the Canadian machinery has 575v motors which can be a pain for the HSM unless you are McGyver!

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-tools-equipment-MILLING-MACHINE-TOS-MODEL-FN20-UNIVERSAL-TYPE-FOR-SALE-W0QQAdIdZ216265081

Geoff


Price negotiable but, must be quite high, that machine has been advertised for a least a year if I remember correctly.

Ed

philbur
10-10-2010, 08:54 PM
Because the good ones cost more than a sports car.;)

Phil:)


Why is everyone afraid to use the Deckels? Its a machine not a sports car! :)

rklopp
10-10-2010, 11:32 PM
I have a Deckel FP2NC a little newer than AlfaGTA's FP4NC. I use it a lot for research lab stuff and model IC engines. It has a few dings in the paint, the table is plain (not universal) and has some rust stains, and the Z ways are scored, so it's no hangar queen. I also have no Deckel accessories or cabinet for them. But I get by. The mill works beautifully, in fact. The origninal owner paid north of $80,000 for it in 1986. I bought it for $4,000 about four years ago. That was definitley the best machine tool buy I've ever made.

Travels are 12 x 12 x 16, so smaller than a typical Bridgeport. But the Deckel is way more productive than a Bridgeport, even for one-offs. I have a basis for comparison because I've run lots of Bridgeports, old and new.

Northernsinger
10-11-2010, 07:31 PM
While, admnittedly, no one will probably dream of it (for a 'dream' shop), here is a photograph of the Excello that I mentioned above:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/brnstn/004.jpg

boslab
10-11-2010, 10:19 PM
i've used a deckel a couple of times but to be honest i've always got better results from a Cinny, end of story, they are good but when it comes to ploughing out a die the cinny will eat it every time, and if you want super duper dies then EDM the bugger
mark

EddyCurr
10-11-2010, 11:11 PM
While, admittedly, no one will probably dream of it (for a 'dream' shop),
here is a photograph of the Excello that I mentioned To acquire an acclaimed model, not just tooled up but with spares, documents
and full provenance from a cooperative, original owner seems dream-worthy
to me.

To further sweeten the transaction with a 24" Grob and a 612 Boyar for such
prices as mentioned could require a change of bedding.

.

trafficbikes
10-12-2010, 07:00 PM
Thought I'd chime in, as it appears someone here has found my flickr page :) (the photos of my mills are mostly here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/trafficbikes/sets/72157617722145715/with/4310191403/))

Yes, I own both the SH4d and the SV4. It's a bit of a coincidence. The SV4 I inherited from a friend who wasn't using it and the SH4d I got at auction for a song. I like them both; they're well built machines. I wouldn't call myself an aficionado, though. I really just happened upon the machines and, after doing deep-cleans on both of them, put them to work.

I wouldn't recommend them as the best manual mill for a shop, though. They're both very small. The SV4 is really bad; the table is tiny, the longitudinal travel is short and the max table-to-spindle makes it really hard to do much work on it. The SH4d also has really short cross travel, meaning that it's hard to use without the overarm (which is how I use it, exclusively).

My Avene is much more versatile. I wish it had a quill sometimes, but other than that it's a really nice machine. Power feed in all directions, big handwheels that only spin when they're pushed in (meaning they don't bang around when the feed is on), and overall a really rigid setup. Plus it has a one-shot lube and a gearbox with a big range of speeds (the Steinels run on v-belts that need to be changed manually). If you do the kind of work that lets you use a horizontal mill a lot, or you don't need a quill, I'd definitely recommend the Abene.

Spencer Wright
Traffic Cycle Design
http://trafficbikes.com


Not sure what this thread has in common with the OP's original request, but Steinel caught my eye.

I have a SH4d (horizontal) with the vertical milling head (FVK3). It is in good running shape. But with vertical mills in the shop, I seldom use it.

There are more around in the Eastern US than I thought. I know a fellow in West Virginia that has both the horizontal and vertical models (SH4d & SV4d).

I snapped a pic of it the first time it entered the shop and powered up.

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff3/rstreifthau/Steinel1stUseFrontTopReedface-s.jpg

- Reed
Raleigh, NC

ken5881
10-13-2010, 09:07 PM
I'm sorry that I haven't been posting more, I've been 'shopping'.

Wife and I have been looking at machines close to me, and last weekend we looked at a Bridgy Series 1, a J head with a DRO, and a huge Cincy Model 3? mill.

So far, I'm still looking, but I learned something very important - *NEVER* let the wife stand around when you're talking price with sellers!!!. Wife now says if I get a mill, she wants shoes and a purse. Her idea of 'a pair of shoes' basically is a week's pay for a machinist too. :eek:

Ken

hardtail
10-14-2010, 11:30 AM
If you get her some nice silk stockings also it still can end up win/win......LOL

Black Forest
10-14-2010, 12:41 PM
I don't know how much a machinist makes in one week but if my wife was out buying shoes for over a thousand dollars a pair I would be trading her in on a new mill!

EddyCurr
10-14-2010, 12:50 PM
... but I learned something very important - *NEVER* let the wife
stand around when you're talking price with sellers!!!.It is worse if she is around when we are talking prices with buyers.

.

ken5881
10-14-2010, 12:52 PM
I think these are what she had in mind... (I hope). At least these are relatively cheap for Jimmy Choos anyway. Click here (http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/3078864?cm_cat=datafeed&cm_pla=shoes:women:pumps&cm_ite=jimmy_choo_'quiet'_pump:284889&cm_ven=Froogle&mr:trackingCode=AE4AE61D-C202-DF11-9DA0-002219319097&mr:referralID=NA)

What can I say? Her favorite show was Desperate Housewives, and at least these don't look too silly. If you think these are spendy and/or silly just look at some of the OTHER ones he has. My wallet had a coronary just thinking about it.

Ken

MuellerNick
10-14-2010, 01:38 PM
I would be trading her in on a new mill!

I would treat here with an old mill!

I hate blood on mint tools.


Nick

Benta
10-14-2010, 05:52 PM
Considering ken5881 want a mill to match his 10EE, and that he's in an area with abundant supply, I'm surprised noone has suggested a B&S Omniversal yet.

Benta.

hardtail
10-14-2010, 06:42 PM
This one looks interesting........

http://edmonton.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-tools-equipment-Abini-Tool-Room-Mill-W0QQAdIdZ235888635

EddyCurr
10-14-2010, 08:19 PM
Looks like Metric Machine's facility.

.

gundog
10-14-2010, 09:18 PM
I have a Wells Index 847 Mill I bought used and I think it is a nice machine and they still make them here in the US new.

Mike

hardtail
10-15-2010, 06:07 PM
Yes that was a machine from Metric, they seem to have lowered their pricing lately and are trying to reduce inventory......even a 602 there but not at $100 like you found.....

Heres a Supermill that sold recently on ebay, hope to pick mine up on Sunday, mine has 40 taper but no DRO.....they resemble TOS in a lot of ways and bulk.....

http://i509.photobucket.com/albums/s337/corn56/th_r03a.jpg (http://s509.photobucket.com/albums/s337/corn56/?action=view&current=r03a.jpg)

Arthur.Marks
10-21-2010, 12:09 PM
Well... as asked. LOW priced, DREAM machine with ultimate capabilities and no sticking problem points from a reliable seller... that just about any home-shop-guy would drop his jaw over:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Hermle-UWF800-Deckel-style-manual-mill-Video-/200531761625?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb09fd9d9#ht_6189wt_1141

gundog
10-21-2010, 04:54 PM
Well... as asked. LOW priced, DREAM machine with ultimate capabilities and no sticking problem points from a reliable seller... that just about any home-shop-guy would drop his jaw over:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Hermle-UWF800-Deckel-style-manual-mill-Video-/200531761625?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb09fd9d9#ht_6189wt_1141

That is really nice!!!! How come these things are always in the East?