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View Full Version : In need of Super 11 lathe help real bad !



nheng
12-07-2003, 11:32 PM
After looking forever, I found and just picked up a Maximat Super 11 on Friday. Aside from the paint being in really tough shape, the spindle had about 0.0002" TIR and the ways looked pretty good. Compound, cross and tailstock handwheels were sluggish but after a clean and lube they are like silk again.

But now the horror story begins:

The longitudinal feed pinion gear meshes poorly with the rack. At first it looked like the rack was worn but after taking the carriage off and inspecting and cleaning it, horror has struck. I'm thinking that maybe the ways have SO MUCH wear that the front of the carriage has dropped by upwards of 0.030" ... yikes !

If I indicate the front, flat tailstock way, I get about 0.008" change over the roughly 1" span when moving the cross slide from FRONT to REAR. It takes a feeler gauge of over 0.030" under the front V way to make the flat way read almost flat ! I'm assuming that the flat ways are always parallel to the bench surface ... is this a safe assumption ?

Putting a ground straight edge on the front way over a 24" span from under the chuck to 24" out, NO gap appears. Flipped the straight edge to be sure.

How can the ways be totally without bow yet 0.030" or more is worn off the front way unless ... somebody took a grinder to it.

FYI, one other thing ... the cross slide itself looks good front to back. 0.00015" deviation across a 2" region of the spindle (camlock) face).

What do you lathe rebuilding gurus think about this ? HELP http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//eek.gif

For Super 11 owners, are your front and back flat ways at exactly the same height ?

Sorry for so many questions but I'm in tough shape ... mother nature also blew about 3 feet of snow over my only access path to get this thing back into my car to (maybe) return within the next few weeks.

Den

beckley23
12-08-2003, 01:22 AM
If you decide to keep the lathe, you are in for a heck of a lot of work and a long term project. I strongly recommend that you obtain a copy of Edward Connelly's book "Machine Tool Reconditioning", it is advertised in HSM and well worth the cost.
It is highly unlikely that all the wear is in the bed, more likely most of the wear is in the carriage, and it has dropped , a lot in this case. The carriage height can be restored using Turcite, Rulon, or Garlock Multifil Tape, and then scraped to fit.
I think I would ask the seller what kind of life this machine had, that seems to be a lot of wear for a relatively "new" machine.
Harry

Bruce Griffing
12-08-2003, 01:27 AM
Don't panic. The 30 thou wear you suggest could not have happened uniformly over the bed length. Take a parallel and mount it in a four jaw and do some measurements from that. Correct for any error in the chuck by rotating 180 and retaking measurements. This won't cover the whole bed, but it will give you and idea of what is going on near the spindle. To check the whole bed you need a known good test bar.

nheng
12-08-2003, 02:02 AM
Beckley23: Under the carriage you can see where the Vee way has worn into it but there was only about a 0.004" ridge visible. I'm now wondering now if that "ridge" wasn't actually a recess before. I'll have to re-measure things tomorrow night.

The bed is hardened and perhaps most of the wear is in fact in the carriage. If that proves to be the case, I may be able to replace the carriage.

Bruce: The spindle runout was excellent and I can indicate a flat area on the spindle face while moving the cross slide from front to back ... around 0.00015" difference over 2". This would seem to indicate that wear in the carriage has, at least, not affected the cross slide being very square to the spindle axis.

Den

[This message has been edited by nheng (edited 12-08-2003).]

eeler1
12-08-2003, 03:42 AM
Hey Den, maybe congradulations are premature!!! Ain't used machines just grand?

On my S-11, the front and rear v-ways are different heights. I sure hope they are supposed to be that way. I ended up leveling using some parallels on the flats.

The spindle run out is actually encouraging given the other figures you've noted. Make sure to check the level adjusting screws (assuming you have a factory cabinet) under the bed at each end. You may have some hellatious twist going on.

Reason I say that is I don't see how you can get .008" variance from the front of the flat to the rear of that same flat. Particularly if you measured that .008" near the headstock, as the tailstock is what rides on that flat and shouldn't put wear in that location. Thats if I understand correctly from your first post. I also have a hard time accepting .030" of wear for a machine of that age and with the hardened bed and all. While possible, it just seems excessive to me.

It'll be interesting to see how this turns out.

Jon

Ian B
12-08-2003, 05:47 AM
Den,

30 thou sounds like an awful lot of wear, and the rest of the machine doesn't seem to reflect this. Could it be that the saddle is not the original one? Just a thought.

Ian

debequem
12-08-2003, 08:45 AM
DON'T PANIC

That's the biggest and friendliest letters I have.

Call Blue Ridge Machine and explain your story. I would also call the Emco office in Columbus Ohio. They should be able to help you sort this out.

I measured my Super 11 CD and there is a significant difference between the height of the ways from front to back. Mine is a new machine, so it is probably normal.

If you lightly lock down the carriage clamping screw, does the resistance of the carriage remain the same over the whole length of the bed when the carriage is moved? I'll bet the bed is fine.

Give them a call, you'll get it fixed, and then we won't be able to shut you up when you keep telling us how great the machine is. :-)

Keep the faith. I think you will find that you bought a good machine after all.

Marv

nheng
12-08-2003, 11:07 AM
Used machines are grand the same way my son's first '92 Saab with 160k is grand http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

Ian: That's a thought but the paint is uniformly bad http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

Jon, Marv: The front Vee under the carriage has so much wear that the carriage seems to be either just touching or starting to touch the tailstock flat.

It's good to know that the front and back flats are at different heights. That is a big help.

The 0.008" is almost unbelievable and it seems to take around 0.030" on the way (about 0.042 vertical drop assuming 45 deg. Vee) to cancel it out !!!

I got a good price on the machine and will price out a carriage, then measure some more to see if the ways are worth it.

Marv: I did tighten up the carriage and it will bind as it travels right but doesn;t take much to free it. Don't forget, the cast iron "finger" which grab under the front edge are probably somewhat distorted with the extra 0.04-ish of vertical wear.

Thanks to all !

Den

[This message has been edited by nheng (edited 12-08-2003).]

x39
12-08-2003, 12:03 PM
Have you tried indicating a rod held between centers to see whether the ways are parallel to the axis of the spindle?

Bruce Griffing
12-08-2003, 01:40 PM
My suggestion with the parallel was to check the ways, not the spindle runout. I meant to mount the parallel with the long axis parallel to the ways. If you have a long parallel you trust, you can check the ways for a distance of a several inches. The measurement can be pretty precise if done this way. Not hard to try either.

nheng
12-08-2003, 02:41 PM
Bruce: Thanks for the clarification. I was wondering if that was what you meant. Unfortunately, I don't have any workholding items for this machine yet.

It appears that the carriage is toast and I'm getting a replacement price. Looks like about 0.04" vertical drop which is also screwing up the long. feed pinion big time http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif
Den

winchman
12-08-2003, 03:50 PM
It looks like you have decided to keep this machine, so here's a suggestion which won't cost you much and may save you a lot.

I'd first contact the seller to let him know you've discovered a serious problem, and want some time to check it out with the option of returning it if it cannot be fixed at a reasonable cost.

Since the ways appear to be good and the carriage seems to be worn, clean up the carriage where it rides on the ways. Bond on some shim stock (brass, steel, or whatever) to return the carriage to its original position. Reinstall the carriage, and see how the lathe works. The shims will probably wear quicker than what was originally there, but the change that takes place during a typical project won't be enough to cause a problem. As long as the cross-slide moves perpendicular to the spindle axis and everything is tight, what harm will a little drop in the front of the carriage cause, since it's going to be constant over the longitudinal travel.

Based on how the lathe works with the shims in place, you can make a decision to return it, get a new carriage, or make a note to change the shims every six months, every year, or whenever required. At least it will give you a chance to evaluate the performance of the rest of the machine.

Roger

Bruce Griffing
12-08-2003, 04:12 PM
I would try to repair the carriage. If you are thinking of replacing the carriage anyway - you have very little to loose except time and a little $. I suggest you look into turcite. This link gives an idea of how to do the process.

http://www.mtsandtg.com/application.htm

wmgeorge
12-09-2003, 12:22 AM
I've got a used Super 11 also and I find it hard to believe that either the bed or carrage is worn as much as you describe. The beds are hardened and if the felt wipers under the carrage are working most of any grit should be kept away from it. In any event if the carrage is worn, just purchase that lower part you need and re-use the rest. Blue Ridge machine sometimes will wheel and deal on prices, if you are purchasing a lot of parts ( and I did). I had to replace the main gearbox gears that drive the power feed to the price of about $300 +. Good luck.

wierdscience
12-09-2003, 12:51 AM
It sounds to me like something else is going on,I don't think that hard ways would produce that much wear in a saddle,anyway we got an 150 year old plus machine with soft ways that doesn't have that much.

It sounds to me like you have either a married machine or a bent feed rod,something is lifting the carrage.

Is it possilbe to run the machine?If so I would chuck op a test bar the max length of the bed and take trial cuts a several places,this will tell you more than anything.

L Webb
12-09-2003, 01:06 AM
Perfect timing on this topic.

I need parts for a Maximat Super 11.
It is missing the gears from the quadrant that drives the gearbox.
The quadrant is there, but the change gears 120 and 127, washers, bushing and everything is missing.

Wmgeorge, is that the parts you had to replace?
Who is the best source?

I appreciate any help.

Les

nheng
12-09-2003, 01:16 AM
Guys: I know it's hard to believe but when I shim up both faces of the front vee way with 0.034" material (about 0.042" vertical !!), the following happens:

1) the huge front to back vertical difference in the flat tailstock way is just about gone ... needs a little thicker shim !

2) the longitudinal pinion gear meshes correctly with the rack

I also discovered that the thin cast iron web on the apron which adjusts vertical play is CRACKED http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif due to the 0.040" plus over-adjustment which was made in it http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif

Wierdscience: The front vee in the carriage was worn so bad that the carriage was rubbing on the flat tailstock way !

Could all this be from major grinding operations and worn out wipers ?

I've read that the harder material (the ways in this case) will often wear faster due to lapping effects of the softer material (the carriage) with embedded grit. Yet the ways only have about 0.001" maximum under a straightedge (flipped over to verify). They also have a very smooth, unidirectional finish, no doubt from the carriage acting like a lap.

Den

nheng
12-09-2003, 01:19 AM
Les: Sorry for the double post. Generally, I've had very good luck with Blue Ridge Machinery on several Emco machines. On the Super 11, if you can't get the Super 11 part, the Super 11 CD parts (the red and black, newer machine) are mostly the same with different parts numbers only where color is involved. If you need parts manuals, I posted both the S11 and S11 CD previously over on the Yahoo Super 11 group.

If I get a new carriage and apron for this machine, it will be on its way to becoming a Super 11 CD http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

Den

Thrud
12-10-2003, 05:43 AM
Den
You could repair the carrage with www.moglice.com (http://www.moglice.com) and the apron with titanium putty - make it stronger than new for a hell of a lot less cash methinks laddie. If you go the Moglice route you will have to scrape it in of course, but it will be a permanent repair.

Oh, the adventures ahead! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

debequem
12-10-2003, 09:00 AM
I would be worried about replacing with a material that could lead to wear on the ways.

The repair cost to the carriage is probably cheaper than the cost to regrind the ways, head, and tail stock.

Personally, I would go the OEM route and be done with it, but that's my prefference.

marv

nheng
12-10-2003, 09:24 AM
Thrud and Marv: I'm still beating on the machine (if that's still possible) and if all goes well, I'll probably spring for a new carriage $490 and new apron $ ??. The seller wants to help with it http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

After repeat measurements, it sure looks like someone wore the hell out of that carriage vee but incredibly, the bed is virtually untouched http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Marv: I've got some noise from the reversing gear in the headstock which drives the external intermediate (120 or 127) gear. The gear reverse handle is also out of sync with the detents but it is pinned so it looks like I have to drain the swamp to get at the end inside the headstock. Sure hope it's adjustable.

Den

L Webb
12-10-2003, 12:23 PM
Thanks Den. I'll give Blue Ridge a call.
Les

Bruce Griffing
12-10-2003, 05:33 PM
A agree with Thrud - as I already said above - but I would go further. The repair would be better than original. If you use Turcite, the carriage could run dry with no damage to the ways. Not that I am suggesting running it dry, but that is probably what the last owner did. Even if you hire someone to do the scraping - it will cost much less.

Evan
12-10-2003, 05:58 PM
If the ways are in good shape then there isn't any scraping to do with the Moglice. The carriage is positioned at the correct height and the Moglice injected. Presto, new carriage vees. Well, almost that simple, but no scraping.

wmgeorge
12-12-2003, 09:31 PM
L. Webb: You got the answer I was going to give you, Blue Ridge Machinery. My problem was inside the main gear box, bad gears. It was in a school and students must not of bothered to stop the motor before engaging power feed.

I had pictures I took with digital camera before and during the repair so I could get it back together ok. I also have a PDF file of the parts book... somewhere, if anyone needs.

nheng
12-12-2003, 10:11 PM
Thanks to all for the support and ideas. Turns out the bed was pretty worn and the carriage gibs even worse. Apron gibs were cracked from being over-extended. I found a fine black crud everywhere and it looked (to me anyway) like it was abrasive. Probably explains the 0.040" carriage drop. Drained and filled the headstock, ran it a while and the same black ooze was mixed into the clean oil, giving it a black oily brine appearance. Enuf said ! It was a good learning experience. I could have saved many hours by simply doing the carriage gib tighten / move routine.

Guess you've got to get bitten by that special machine bug at least once in your life http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

Den

BillH
12-12-2003, 10:19 PM
Hmm, They aint kidding when they say protect the lathe from grinding dust with a blanket.
Sorry to hear about your misfortune, what are you going to do now?

nheng
12-12-2003, 10:37 PM
Probably sit back and have some fun over the holidays with my other machines (and family of course). Next time I evaluate a used (unless I hit Powerball) S11, it will be a LOT quicker. I'm afraid that I had blinders on during my S11 quest. I saw but ignored a number of bad signs.

Den

debequem
12-12-2003, 11:28 PM
How disheartening.

Do you have a figure for a rebuild? Even though it is way more money than you paid for it, if it is a loss, then you might want to think about a rebuild if it is cheaper than a used S11. After the rebuild you will have a virtually new machine.

Marv

Thrud
12-13-2003, 03:55 AM
Den

I still think you can fix it with moglice. It is damn tuff stuff. it would give you a good scraping project to do and when done it will be better than new. Might just as well turn that sows ear into a silk purse. All is not lost my brother...

nheng
12-13-2003, 03:48 PM
Thrud: My back is sore but the machine went home this morning. Valuable lessons learned from it.

I am interested in Moglice however. What keeps chips, dirt, etc. from slicing the cr-p out of it? And how about its density and dampening properties since you're replacing that last x.xx (" or mm) of cast iron with it?
Den

Evan
12-13-2003, 03:55 PM
I don't think you can run Moglice against Moglice. It has to be against metal. See thier site for info.

nheng
12-13-2003, 07:04 PM
Evan: I would imagine it slides pretty well against steel or cast iron but I was wondering about it's tolerance to hard, sharp fragments. I'm picturing something with hardness between Delrin and Ultem plastics. Is that close? ... I suppose I should go read the specs.
Den

Thrud
12-13-2003, 07:42 PM
Den

It is harder than hell once it sets up. It has moly in it to lower surface tension. It has to be machines or scraped to get it off. If you want more info contact Dewitt Machinery (the guys that sell it) www.moglice.com (http://www.moglice.com) If you shipped the lathe to Dewitt you could have them rebuild it for you.

If Evan is right and you can't run moglice against itself (I am sure he is wrong) you can always build up your apron with tool steel or iron plates and machine it, then scrape it in - or buy another apron. I would fix it. You could have it spray welded as well.

Evan
12-13-2003, 08:15 PM
Thrud,

Compressive strength is 23000 psi. There is no logical way to run Moglice against itself. It is a replication material. It is intended to adhere to one surface and not the other (release agent). In the case of a worn bed and a worn saddle using Moglice it would adhere to the saddle and replicate to the worn ways. NOT what you want. The surface being replicated must be in the condition you want as a final condition. If both mating surfaces are hooped then one will have to be fixed by some other method first.