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pgmrdan
11-29-2010, 06:13 PM
I thought about putting this in the Gunsmithing forum but it's not really appropriate there so I put it here as an Off Topic.

I sort of have a 'need' for a handgun but I don't have a 'want' for one. I've been around long guns all of my life and have no irrational fear of guns ... just respect. My problem is I just don't like the idea of owning a handgun. I've shot them in .22 up to .44 Magnum. I shoot pretty well for as little as I've shot one. I just consider them useless except for self-defence, thus I sort of have a need for a handgun.

I could put a .22lr semi-automatic pistol to good use at times while out on the property and I wouldn't mind having one of them so much but it doesn't get rave reviews when it comes to self-defence. (Ruger Mark III Hunter in stainless steel with a 6 7/8" barrel comes to mind. Sweet! :D )

I have a silly request. Can you tell me anything that will convince me to get one?

(I have a permit to acquire and I'm scheduled to take a permit to carry class in 5 days that I'm half way tempted to cancel out of.)

JCHannum
11-29-2010, 06:29 PM
Any handgun that you can't or won't use, or are not familiar with is useless in a self defense situation. A 22 is better than nothing, a 38 Special or larger is better yet.

I do prefer a shorter barrel, say 4", in a carry gun. It is handier and quicker to bring into action. You give up little in accuracy or performance. If the Ruger holds your interest, get one and become familiar with it. You will find that it is more convenient than a long arm, and offers opportunities in plinking and casual shooting if it is readily at hand.

Once you get accustomed to owning a handgun, you might find the idea of a heavier caliber more appealing.

If it is a total no go, you can usually sell a good gun for close to the new price, so there is little economic downside in changing your mind.

2ManyHobbies
11-29-2010, 06:33 PM
The starting question is your location.
The followup question is whether you intend to carry or just keep it at home.

.22lr is not something you want to get hit with, does okay with most critters, but is not considered a self defense round. For that, the minimums would be .380 auto or .38 special unless there is a special circumstance.

pgmrdan
11-29-2010, 06:35 PM
IF (and that's a big if) I buy one I'm currently considering the Ruger mid-frame (GP100) 6-shot stainless steel revolver with a 4" barrel in a .357 Magnum with adjustable rear sight.

Would that be a good choice for self-defence/carry? Might be a bit heavy to carry but I weigh about 220 lbs and could probably hide it fairly easily.

pgmrdan
11-29-2010, 06:43 PM
The starting question is your location.
The followup question is whether you intend to carry or just keep it at home.

I live out in the country but work in the city. It would be easier to transport if I have a CCW permit. I'd keep it in the truck while I'm at work so I can carry it to the house when I get home at night. It also might be handy to keep with me while doing chores or in the out building, day or night, especially when I'm the only one on the property.

I *might* carry it more later...IF I get one.

Kenwc
11-29-2010, 06:45 PM
In a true self defense situation with another human that was pointing ANY gun at me...I "personally" would want to he holding a revolver. I want a semi-auto with 15 rounds in a clip and a worrysome sound when you chamber a round in the dark....

I hope you never have to get into that situation because whatever happens...it's all downhill from there...

gary350
11-29-2010, 06:48 PM
I built a single shot 12 guage pistol. Barrel is 4" long. You can't miss at close range. It has a pattern the size of a garage door at a distance of about 12 to 15 ft. It would not be good for snakes or bear. If 2 or 3 guys are trying to rob you this would take them all out.

pgmrdan
11-29-2010, 06:49 PM
Along with a 2 legged critter that caused an incident about 2 weeks ago I've also seen a 4 legged critter near the house twice in about a year - a mountain lion.

I've had a neighbor warn us to keep a gun handy while taking our walks around the place because of mountain lions. My take has been that if a mountain lion attacks me I'll probably never know what hit me but then again???

Pherdie
11-29-2010, 06:50 PM
Would that be a good choice for self-defence/carry?

I suggest you find a GOOD gun shop with a range (if near you, wherever you are) and rent several guns to get a feel for what's right for you. Grip, balance, recoil, load and other factors all play a big part, more so than the long guns you're familiar with. Then you want to get very proficient with it. Carrying a firearm without proficiency is a disaster waiting to happen.

I wish you luck in your decision.

Fred

Fasttrack
11-29-2010, 06:53 PM
I would say you don't need one. Statistically (and you all are going to hate me and argue this point), you are more likely to be shot and killed if you carry a handgun than if you are unarmed.

Furthermore, the psychological impact of taking another person's life can be great. I understand defending one's self or one's loved ones, but I would much rather hand over my wallet than risk either killing or being killed.

If you live in a rural area, a rifle of some sort is almost a neccessity just to deal with wild (or rabid) animals, etc. But a hand gun doesn't seem very practical. They are fun to own and shoot, though.

pgmrdan
11-29-2010, 06:53 PM
I built a single shot 12 guage pistol. Barrel is 4" long. You can't miss at close range. It has a pattern the size of a garage door at a distance of about 12 to 15 ft.

I keep a Mossberg 500 12 gauge hidden in the house. It has an 18.5" barrel and a pistol grip. Plenty of shells handy too.

I don't want to carry that while doing chores but it does have a strap so it wouldn't be too inconvenient.

Transporting might be an issue though. And forget about carrying. :D

2ManyHobbies
11-29-2010, 06:54 PM
The .357 magnum is a quite capable self defense round. A bonus is that you can train and practice with .38 special rounds should you find a full .357 magnum a little much for extended use.

The GP100 is moderately concealable. You probably won't find the size to be the issue and you can be creative with a weighted pouch to see if the weight would be. If you carry in a belt holster, you'll need to invest in a good stiff belt.

I was trying to narrow down your location by state (if USA) to send you towards groups and other web boards with locally relevant information.

Fasttrack
11-29-2010, 06:55 PM
Then you want to get very proficient with it. Carrying a firearm without proficiency is a disaster waiting to happen.



Exactly. Sadly, the majority of people who carry are not proficient. I'll see if I can dig up those statistics that I saw. Typically, the "success" stories where carrying a concealed weapon turned out to be beneficial was when the individual was highly trained - either military or law-enforcement, etc.

randyc
11-29-2010, 06:58 PM
Common knowledge - and it has been well-summarized here - is that the best handgun is the one that you shoot best. Given your size, the GP-100 is a great choice ! You can easily and inexpensively load it down to .38 special (or less) and shoot cast SWC for practice. While large magazines in a semi-auto are definitely attractive, I've always felt that the ability to simply squeeze the trigger again (in the event of a misfire) makes the revolver a great choice.

I have the earlier version (Ruger "Speed Six" with 2-5/8 inch barrel), purchased further back than I like to remember. It's had several thousand rounds through it - the wife shoots it, my son and all the nephews - it's still as tight as the day that I bought it. It's my "camping gun", every other chamber carries a shotshell for snakes.

Because of the short barrel, it's sort of like holding a cherry bomb in your hand when shooting full power loads. I have a lot of handguns and if I had to pick the one that I felt most comfortable with, it would be Grand-Daddy's S & W hand-ejector in .32-20. But for reasonable accuracy and stopping power, I take a Colt Government Model in the conventional caliber.

The ideal - for me but I haven't yet found it - would be the Government Model in .38 Super.

Cheers and good luck !
Randy C

Weston Bye
11-29-2010, 07:03 PM
Not to discourage you, but have you ever had to keep track of a 3 year old in public? Same mindset. If you are carrying, you need to know where the gun is at all times. You also need to know where you are and where you are going. You don't want to forget and carry it into some place where guns are prohibited.

Even then, you don't want other people to see it when you are in a public place. I remember hearing on the police scanner about a guy who was (later determined to be) carrying legally, cause a tense situation for a few minutes in a department store. A "concerned citizen" with a cell phone reported him.

I've never carried, perferring to try to avoid the social occasion that make such things necessary.

That said, I always felt that if you needed a gun then you should have a GUN. As big as comfortable and practical. My taste runs to .45 - large hole equals sudden stop.

.RC.
11-29-2010, 07:04 PM
What sort of sized animal are we defending against?

Tony Ennis
11-29-2010, 07:08 PM
Can you tell me anything that will convince me to get one?

I love guns. But by your statement, I recommend you don't get one. Sounds like you need to talk to the cops.

Pherdie
11-29-2010, 07:11 PM
The .357 magnum is a quite capable self defense round. A bonus is that you can train and practice with .38 special rounds should you find a full .357 magnum a little much for extended use.

True from a physical standpoint, however, I'd like to offer information regarding this practice. The California Highway Patrol issue weapon for years was a .357 revolver. Over a several year period, the Patrol lost a number of officers in major firefights. In combat, the officers were NOT hitting their targets. It was found the officers were using .38 rounds in their weapons to qualify in order to 'save their wrists' and more so, money. Once back on duty, they would load up with .357 rounds. The practice was determined to be leading to the death of officers.

The moral here: Practice like you play and you'll play like you practiced.

Fred

pgmrdan
11-29-2010, 07:11 PM
.RC., Adult human and, possibly, adult mountain lion.

pgmrdan
11-29-2010, 07:17 PM
The moral here: Practice like you play and you'll play like you practiced.

Fred

Fred, you bring up a question I asked someone this morning. "Should I just get a revolver chambered for .38 special?" I don't like the idea of practicing with one cartridge and using another for self-defence.

I don't have a problem shooting .357 Magnum cartridges except for the expense. .38 special ammo isn't tooooo expensive.

2ManyHobbies
11-29-2010, 07:30 PM
I would say you don't need one. Statistically (and you all are going to hate me and argue this point), you are more likely to be shot and killed if you carry a handgun than if you are unarmed.
Citation needed.

You are far more likely to survive a violent assault if you defend yourself with a gun. In episodes where a robbery victim was injured, the injury/defense rates were:
Resisting with a gun 6%
Did nothing at all 25%
Resisted with a knife 40%
Non-violent resistance 45%
-British Home Office

Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 every day. Often the gun is never fired and no blood (including the criminalís) is shed.
-Targeting Guns, Dr. Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State University, Aldine, 1997

Every day, 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes are prevented just by showing a gun. In less than 0.9% of these instances is the gun ever actually fired.
-National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of Justice Statistics, BATF estimates on handgun supply

randyc
11-29-2010, 07:30 PM
Fred, you bring up a question I asked someone this morning. "Should I just get a revolver chambered for .38 special?" I don't like the idea of practicing with one cartridge and using another for self-defence.

I don't have a problem shooting .357 Magnum cartridges except for the expense. .38 special ammo isn't tooooo expensive.

Reload and you can have the best of both worlds using the .357 as the basic platform, tailoring ammunition to your specific needs. An inexpensive Lee rig will pay for itself the first couple of visits to the range.

And it's fun, LOL.

Randy C

Pherdie
11-29-2010, 07:31 PM
I don't have a problem shooting .357 Magnum cartridges except for the expense. .38 special ammo isn't tooooo expensive.

If economy is your concern, then go the .38 special. Whatever you buy in a gun, you need to put several hundred rounds through it to attain proficiency and make sure the weapon is operating properly.

In all honesty, I support the others in whether a handgun is the right answer for your needs (especially Fasttracks comments). Drawing a gun is the last point of escalation and brandishing a weapon as a threat is insane (which I'm sure you wouldn't do). If a lion wants to attack you, you'll never know until it's on your back. As for your two legged foe, maybe trek on down to Harbor Freight for some pepper spray and other goodies, it's cheaper and safer, especially if it winds up getting used on you (like a gun could).

Again, good luck in your decision, what ever course you take.

Fred

2ManyHobbies
11-29-2010, 07:38 PM
Fred, you bring up a question I asked someone this morning. "Should I just get a revolver chambered for .38 special?" I don't like the idea of practicing with one cartridge and using another for self-defence.

I don't have a problem shooting .357 Magnum cartridges except for the expense. .38 special ammo isn't tooooo expensive.
If you spend the time and money to take extended training somewhere, you might find yourself shooting 750-1000 rounds over a weekend.

Decreased energy training rounds are available in just about any caliber as are increased energy self defense rounds. If you spend a day at the range, go through a few boxes of the lighter stuff and end the range trip with a few cylinders of what you plan to carry. Your wrists and wallet will thank you for the lighter stuff and your mental preparedness will thank you for the the heavier stuff. A side benefit to using the hotter rounds at the end of the day is that cleanup is easier once they blast out the leading from the training rounds.

Evan
11-29-2010, 07:50 PM
Every day, 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes are prevented just by showing a gun.

That is utter nonsense. If they didn't happen you cannot count them. :rolleyes:

Dan,

A Ruger Security Six is a decent weapon and very easy to handle. It strips without tools and fires 38 and .357 rounds. It will stop a cougar just fine if you can stay calm enough to aim. Cougars aren't very heavy, no more than a human. Just shooting near the animal will scare it away. If you have climbable trees make sure you keep an eye on them when out on the property. Every year people are attacked here and this year was especially bad. We spotted cougar within 100 feet of the house twice this year and my wife nearly ran it over driving to work one morning. One day this summer I stepped out on the back deck and heard the unmistakeable yowl of a cougar nearby. I never saw him that time but he was no more than 50 feet away.

I carry a cut down 12 guage that I keep ready. First load is 00 buck and a solid slug is next. I used to have a Ruger 6 but it's too much hassle to take anywhere unless you belong to the local club.

Don't buy a weapon to defend yourself from people outside. You kill somebody outside and you will go to prison unless they shoot you first.

pgmrdan
11-29-2010, 08:04 PM
Yep, my main concern is unknowingly walking in on someone inside my house. That's why I want the gun in my truck when I get home at night. It doesn't do much good to have a good short-barreled 12 gauge in the house while some undesirable is in the house and I'm in the truck empty handed.

My second concern is someone breaking in at night. My handgun would be my weapon until I get to the shotgun.

From other reading I've done the best things to have for defence are a shotgun and a big dog. I already have those.

ADGO_Racing
11-29-2010, 08:13 PM
That is utter nonsense. If they didn't happen you cannot count them. :rolleyes:

Dan,

A Ruger Security Six is a decent weapon and very easy to handle. It strips without tools and fires 38 and .357 rounds. It will stop a cougar just fine if you can stay calm enough to aim. Cougars aren't very heavy, no more than a human. Just shooting near the animal will scare it away. If you have climbable trees make sure you keep an eye on them when out on the property. Every year people are attacked here and this year was especially bad. We spotted cougar within 100 feet of the house twice this year and my wife nearly ran it over driving to work one morning. One day this summer I stepped out on the back deck and heard the unmistakeable yowl of a cougar nearby. I never saw him that time but he was no more than 50 feet away.

I carry a cut down 12 guage that I keep ready. First load is 00 buck and a solid slug is next. I used to have a Ruger 6 but it's too much hassle to take anywhere unless you belong to the local club.

Don't buy a weapon to defend yourself from people outside. You kill somebody outside and you will go to prison unless they shoot you first.

Who would want to scare off or shoot a cougar???? I have had lots of fun with them in years past.

My personal favorite, is to just throw your wallet on the ground. When they bend over to pick it up, they get a size eleven in the teeth, and then beaten to within an inch of their life. Left for some Good Samaritan to find and help. If they die in the meantime who cares, no loss to society. If they survive, they may think twice before trying it again. If you don't use a weapon, you aren't obligated to stick around to file a report.:D

Pepper spray is no real defense. Watching the door at my buddies bar one night I was sprayed with that crap. I severely beat the ***** out of the guy who used it on me. Someone determined, ready for it or drugged till his eyes are bugging out of his head, will not be deterred from harming you. They will harm you worse, because you will have pissed them off.

jdunmyer
11-29-2010, 08:17 PM
Fasttrack said:


I would say you don't need one. Statistically (and you all are going to hate me and argue this point), you are more likely to be shot and killed if you carry a handgun than if you are unarmed.

Furthermore, the psychological impact of taking another person's life can be great. I understand defending one's self or one's loved ones, but I would much rather hand over my wallet than risk either killing or being killed


You do need a citation to back up your "Statistically..."

Personally, I'd lots rather deal with the psychological impact of taking another's life than dealing with my own death or injury. Sure, I'd probably give up my wallet IF that would get the thief to leave.

To the O.P.: I began carrying a 3" Kimber M1911, found it too heavy and bulky, went to a Smith Scandium framed .357, which is light enough, but a bit 'fat', and finally to a Ruger LCP in .380 with a Crimson Trace laser. I'd rather carry the Kimber or any other M1911, but it ain't gonna happen. The best gun to carry is the one on your person, not the one in the gun safe.

The LCP is right next to my cell phone and keys; when I leave the shop, it's in my pocket, every single time. Every single time, ALWAYS. In my area, it's extremely unlikely that I'll ever need it, and I don't visit places where a need would be likely. However, I'm extremely careful about fire hazards, too, but I still have extinguishers all over the place.

I've had more than one police officer tell me to always carry, ALWAYS, as you'll never know when/where you might need it. If I considered it a bit more likely to encounter trouble, I'd probably carry the Kimber.

To anyone wanting the facts on guns and gun control, the best source I know of is http://www.gunfacts.info/ This treatise is well-organized by topic, and all statistics come from sources such as FBI, DOJ, etc. In fact, this file debunks the statement by Fasttrack, above.

Willy
11-29-2010, 08:19 PM
Personally if you are having second thoughts I don't think you should as there are a number of non-lethal alternatives that can be very effective.

But if you do decide to "carry", you owe it to yourself and your family to read a book which has become a classic for those about to enter a situation of which most know very little. The book is titled, In the Gravest Extreme, by Massad Ayoob, an ex policeman and firearms/self defense instructor. It covers what many take for granted, the emotional and legal toll associated when one has taken another human being's life.
It's after the victim of your shot hits the floor, when the real hell begins.
Think carefully before you take someone's life, in court the perp's lawyer will do whatever it takes to make his deceased client look like the victim.

Evan
11-29-2010, 08:29 PM
Who would want to scare off or shoot a cougar????

They like to eat things. Last year in this valley we lost 3 Alpaca, two sheep and a dog or two killed. One in our yard I spotted was nose to nose with our malamute when I stepped out. Two years ago a child was killed, a few years before that a mother died defending her children. A older fellow was attacked and nearly killed on Vancouver island. He managed to get out his pocket knife while it was gnawing on his head and cut it's throat. It ripped off a good part of his face though. Just a few weeks ago another cougar was stalking a bow hunter. He managed to shoot it but not kill it. They tracked and killed it. It is thought to be the same cat that was seen several times close to a nearby school.

Boucher
11-29-2010, 08:32 PM
I carry a Sig 45ACP and like it but, A Tarus Judge in 410 & 45 long colt is probably a better defensive weapon.

jep24601
11-29-2010, 08:35 PM
To anyone wanting the facts on guns and gun control, the best source I know of is http://www.gunfacts.info/ This treatise is well-organized by [/I]topic, and all statistics come from sources such as FBI, DOJ, etc. In fact, this file debunks the statement by Fasttrack, above.
Unfotunately it also appears to be another gun nut site. It seems to be impossible to find an unbiased website addressing firearm statistics - every site I find is either gun phobe biased or gun nut biased.

If anybody knows of an unbiased site I would like to find it.

Evan
11-29-2010, 08:42 PM
Try the Dept of Justice.

Willy
11-29-2010, 08:46 PM
I don't think I will be asking some Arab his opinions about guns ownership anytime soon. "American citizen" or not.....:eek:

You should educate yourself about the man. He is probably the biggest champion of gun rights and ccw in your country.
As an expert witness in court he has been instrumental in the exoneration of more good cops facing wrongful accusations in the line of duty then any hundred guys you can name.

Judge the man... not his name.

alanganes
11-29-2010, 08:58 PM
I don't think I will be asking some Arab his opinions about guns ownership anytime soon. "American citizen" or not.....:eek:


Ummm, that book is not about Ayoob's opinions on gun ownership. It is mostly about the legal and psychological aspects of what happens to someone in the aftermath of an armed confrontation. It is an excellent book, and brings to light a bunch of stuff most of us would not necessarily even think of.

Ayoob was born here and was a NH state trooper. He is a strong, long time second amendment supporter and runs the Lethal Force Institute that teaches, for lack of a better term, "gun fighting" all over the country. Google it.

Before anyone asks, no, I do not work for him or his company, don't know the guy, etc. I've read a number of his book and find them to be pretty well written and interesting.

EDIT - And just for the record, ADGO, Mr. Ayoob shares your opinion of pepper spray...

Fasttrack
11-29-2010, 09:01 PM
Personally, I'd lots rather deal with the psychological impact of taking another's life than dealing with my own death or injury. Sure, I'd probably give up my wallet IF that would get the thief to leave.

To anyone wanting the facts on guns and gun control, the best source I know of is http://www.gunfacts.info/ This treatise is well-organized by topic, and all statistics come from sources such as FBI, DOJ, etc. In fact, this file debunks the statement by Fasttrack, above.

Talk to any police officer. I have three in my family and one sharp shooter for the KC SWAT team. Everyone of them will tell you that nearly all muggers aren't prepared to kill someone. They'll take your money and run, unless you threaten them. Then they'll retaliate.

Yeah ... ok. Obviously "gunfacts.info" is a reliable source. Come on guys - try looking at some real studies and not half-arsed attempts at science made by a bunch of gun nuts.

I have no problems if you want to carry a gun. I like guns. But I'm also realist.


Overall, Branas's study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher.

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/content/short/AJPH.2008.143099v1

There are other scholarly articles regarding this topic. These are peer reviewed publications - that means the study was carried out by experts and then reviewed by other experts. They are also as nearly objective as possible. It's not published by a pro or con gun group - it's just research. Incidentally, the P value for these studies was less than 5% - not bad at all. Those sources in that Gun Info book relied on estimation and sloppy statistics. Furthermore, I know nothing about UK. Maybe in the UK owning a gun is a very effective way of preventing crime. That is not the case in the US.

So sure ... believe what you want.

EDIT:

Apparently, of convicted felons in 11 different prisons, about 66% of them were NOT deterred by the defensive use of firearms. That's a majority, folks.

Book: Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms (Expanded Edition). By James D. Wright and Peter D. Rossi. Aldine De Gruyter, 1986 (Expanded edition published in 1994).

That study from the UK was taken out of context. That is why the actual study is not cited - the author just says that is was from the UK Home Office If you look at the study, you will quickly see that those figures are not applicable to the US.

HSS
11-29-2010, 09:05 PM
I carry a Sig 45ACP and like it but, A Tarus Judge in 410 & 45 long colt is probably a better defensive weapon.

You beat me to it, I was going to recomend the Judge

randyc
11-29-2010, 09:05 PM
As Evan noted:


"They like to eat things."

In our neck of the woods, it's usual for folks to post a note on the communal mailbox when cougar or bear are sighted.

Two years ago an elderly couple was hiking on a well-traveled trail nearby when a cougar leaped on the man and started scalping him (literally). The wife, amazingly and courageously, picked up a nearby tree branch and beat the cougar from her husband's head. The animal was probably startled witless.

She ran for help and found it nearby, another hiking couple with a cellular telephone. The husband had to be airlifted down to San Francisco for treatment - our local medical staff couldn't deal with the damage. Sheriff's deputies combed the area and shot the animal within a few hours.

Small dogs, as well as farm animals, are easy prey for these animals and I have seen cougars that are three feet at the shoulders weighing over 150 pounds. They have become a problem as far south as Los Angeles !!!

My wife was formerly Director of Nursing at a small convalescent hospital about 1/2 mile from our home. There was constant conflict with bears hanging around the locked dumpsters - the wildlife people are spread too thin to be of help. One day, a housekeeper went into the laundry room to pick up clean sheets and pillowcases and found a bear in the room. Apparently the animal had broken through the window wire, probably smelling food from the hospital cafeteria. This story eventually had a happy ending for people and bear.

Three years ago, as one of my brothers-in-law was leaving for work, a bear blocked his way between house and truck and could not be frightened away. They have small children so he was clearly concerned. I don't want to complete this story because it MAY involve behavior that wasn't exactly legal but let's just leave at the point that he did what he thought was best in the situation. This event occurred within the city limits of a nearby town.

Although this is an obvious understatement, the environment for these critters isn't always predictable to us - we can't know when their feeding habits have been disturbed or even really what motivates them to do certain things. I wouldn't rely on a handgun to protect myself from a bear (maybe a cougar could be frightened by the noise) ... When there is a bear or cougar sighting posted on the mailbox, it's local practice to prop a shotgun by the front door and block the doggie doors. (00 Buck + solid slug is better medicine for black bears than almost any handgun load unless the shot is perfectly placed.)

No particular point is implied in this meandering post other than stuff happens and the boy scout motto ("Be Prepared") is not a bad one, LOL. My feelings about human intruders are mixed but protection of family is pretty strong motivation in just about any situation.

Randy C

Fasttrack
11-29-2010, 09:06 PM
It covers what many take for granted, the emotional and legal toll associated when one has taken another human being's life.
It's after the victim of your shot hits the floor, when the real hell begins.
Think carefully before you take someone's life, in court the perp's lawyer will do whatever it takes to make his deceased client look like the victim.


Well said.

Just so everyone is on the same page, I am not an "anti-gun" guy. I like guns - skeet and target shooting is a blast. Literally and figuratively ;) But like I said, I'm a realist. I stand by what I said in my first post. If you don't want a gun, then you don't need a gun.

randyc
11-29-2010, 09:07 PM
You should educate yourself about the man. He is probably the biggest champion of gun rights and ccw in your country.
As an expert witness in court he has been instrumental in the exoneration of more good cops facing wrongful accusations in the line of duty then any hundred guys you can name.

Judge the man... not his name.

Absolutely - a knowledgeable expert whose opinions I've studied for years. He has written articles for most reputable firearms publications and is indisputably respected by those who read them.

jdunmyer
11-29-2010, 09:22 PM
Unfotunately it also appears to be another gun nut site. It seems to be impossible to find an unbiased website addressing firearm statistics - every site I find is either gun phobe biased or gun nut biased.

If anybody knows of an unbiased site I would like to find it.


Did you actually read any of that file?

I didn't think so.

Willy
11-29-2010, 09:27 PM
My first thought when I saw the title of this thread was...I wonder how many hours this thread will survive?

Well George is probably home now so I guess it should be here till at least the AM.:D

I'm an avid gun owner and competitive handgun shooter and I can't believe some of the stuff here from other gun owners.:rolleyes:

Fasttrack
11-29-2010, 09:33 PM
Did you actually read any of that file?

I didn't think so.


I did. I also checked the sources, when any real publication was given. Just saying it came from the FBI or the UK Home Office is not a real citation, by the way. ;) :)


More importantly, did you read my reply?

A.K. Boomer
11-29-2010, 09:41 PM
I carry a cut down 12 guage that I keep ready. First load is 00 buck and a solid slug is next.




Who's gonna argue with that??? :)



Im with Fastrack - except Id reverse his saying --- if you don't need one then you really don't want one, at least that's the way I feel about them now - I used to be a gun freak as a teen and then just kinda outgrew it --- I could see owning one someday if the situation warrants it but im just batching it, live in a good area and don't want anything more than my half pint aluminum baseball bat for home defense,,,
I would really struggle with it if I had a wife and kids, The only thing worse than not being able to defend them is either having someone use it against them or have the kid "play" with it and have an accident, I don't know if Id get one and have to leave it at that...

There's something about guns that no matter how careful some people try and be it's easy to forget about the potential energy that's being stored in them when loaded --- in comparison imagine a fully sprung crossbow to where you can see the potential energies -- then imagine people haphazardly passing it around a table with the arrow pointed at others --- It would be like GGGEEEEZUUSS dude - watch where you point that fuquing thing!!!

wierdscience
11-29-2010, 09:41 PM
You can't go wrong with a 2 or 3" .38 revolver for self defense.Mine fits easily in my front pocket opposite my wallet containing my CCP.It has come out on just one occasion,but not all the way and it immediately changed the person's mind who saw it.

The subject of guilt has come up,well it should,but worse than the guilt of shooting a perp is the guilt felt when YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTED a violent crime,but didn't have the means to.

I have a good friend who witnessed an armed robbery at a gas station.He knew the owner,the owner was robbed at gunpoint and then shot dead for no reason while he stood there and watched because he was unarmed.His gun was in his truck,instead of in his pocket.It took him many years to get over that feeling and it still bothers him.

As for critters,mountain lions,bears,and gators are a good reason to carry larger bores and longer barrels IMHO.Even a .22lr revolver with an 8" barrel will stop a good sized animal.Around the farm,get a good holster and strap it to your leg,a cougar doesn't observe CC law,neither should you;)

lazlo
11-29-2010, 09:51 PM
I carry a Sig 45ACP and like it but, A Tarus Judge in 410 & 45 long colt is probably a better defensive weapon.

A .410 shot shell sounds like a lot of power, but the Judge measures out at around 345 ft-lbs with 3 000 pellets. On the low-end of .45 ACP muzzle energy.

I prefer the bigger calibers: 10mm, .44 Mag. Delta Elite, Ruger Redhawk... Stock 10mm ammo easily hits 750 ft/lbs, but is also available in "dainty" .40 S&W loads. ;)

Dan: I just bought a Witness Elite Match in 10mm. It's a CZ-75 derivative, and the platform is very versatile: you can drop-in barrels for .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 Sig, 38 Super etc, without changing the slide. The barrels are around $120 from EAA.

ADGO_Racing
11-29-2010, 09:52 PM
They like to eat things.

Thats ok, it is good to find a couple cougars willing to play with each other.....


Oh wait......I think we may be talking about two different types of cougars.....My mistake:rolleyes:

wierdscience
11-29-2010, 09:53 PM
That is utter nonsense. If they didn't happen you cannot count them. :rolleyes:



Don't buy a weapon to defend yourself from people outside. You kill somebody outside and you will go to prison unless they shoot you first.

2 Points,

#1 They do get counted if they don't happen,but are reported.

#2 If your in a state with Castle law they may just have to be inside your property line or just outside your car to be fair game.

My state you can defend your property with lethal force including your vehicle.

jdunmyer
11-29-2010, 09:56 PM
Adgo racing said:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan
Try the Dept of Justice.


Hahahahhahaha!.......Yeah, there is a reliable source....


Who would you suggest as a source? Fasttrack doesn't believe FBI stats, you don't believe the DOJ, so who, then? Brady Campaign, Violence Policy Center, or who?

Fasttrack
11-29-2010, 10:27 PM
Adgo racing said:


Who would you suggest as a source? Fasttrack doesn't believe FBI stats, you don't believe the DOJ, so who, then? Brady Campaign, Violence Policy Center, or who?


So I'm assuming you haven't read what I replied. I believe FBI statistics, provided the conclusion has a reasonable P value. But the "myth" that was "debunked" didn't use statistics from the FBI. These are the statistics that were cited in a very hand-waiving manner:

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/offenses/violent_crime/index.html
and
http://www.archive.org/stream/criticalincident019110mbp/criticalincident019110mbp_djvu.txt

BTW ... the author of that bogus website tries to use "statistics" from an FBI report whose purpose was to

"identify those personality characteristics as assessed
by the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI) and the California
Psychological Inventory (CPI) that correlate positively with successful police hostage
negotiators."

lazlo
11-29-2010, 10:37 PM
I believe FBI statistics, provided the conclusion has a reasonable P value. But the "myth" that was "debunked" didn't use statistics from the FBI. These are the statistics that were cited in a very hand-waiving manner:

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/offenses/violent_crime/index.html


Someone at FBI should be beaten with a rubber hose for that chart. The way they've drawn the Y-axis, it looks like there was some pivotal event in 2004 that violent crime dropped radically. But if you do the math, it's only a 5% deviation, and the "massive" increases in 2004 and 2005 are ~1.5% each. The total violent crime in 2005 is nearly identical to the beginning of the survey -- about a .4% deviation across the 5 year survey.

I don't have a dog in this fight, and I seriously doubt it was intentional, but that's not a meaningful way to present statistical data.

mochinist
11-29-2010, 10:43 PM
I found just what you need Pgmrdan

http://crunchgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/hello-kitty-taser.jpg

lazlo
11-29-2010, 10:45 PM
I found just what you need Pgmrdan[/IMG]

Can't mention that here Mochinist -- it's illegal in Canada :p

Rustybolt
11-29-2010, 10:53 PM
By"cougar" I take it you mean the four legged kind, not the two leged kind that hang around upscale bars and hunt much younger men.





99.7% of the time if the bad guy just sees the weapon he/she/it will take off.
Back in the day when it was only a misdemeanor to have a loaded weapon in your car in Illinois, I had to show the weapon on two occaisons. Both times the bad guys decided I was more serious than they were.

Willy
11-29-2010, 10:55 PM
Can't mention that here Mochinist -- it's illegal in Canada :p

Yeah, but a cattle prod ain't.:D

ckelloug
11-29-2010, 10:56 PM
For those that have not been assaulted, whether to carry a gun can be viewed as an academic matter. When someone has used potentially lethal force against you, it is much easier to view the aggressor in the inhuman terms in which he views you.

A couple years ago, someone grabbed me and pulled a knife outside the grocery store demanding my wallet. My shirt was ripped in half when I jumped back as he grabbed me. (It may have been slashed or just ripped, I don't really know to this day but I can post a picture of it when I get back from travel if anyone is interested.) The dirtbag was on a mugging spree in Huntsville and injured a dozen or so citizens before being caught by the police. He was certainly willing to and did use force injuring many people over the course of several weeks.

When the police arrived after my encounter they expressed what appeared to be disappointment that I hadn't been armed and able to shoot the aggressor. IF you are unable to or unwilling to provide your own security, you are bound to be dominated by an aggressor who doesn't value your life. I don't choose to be in this situation again.

I was lucky enough that day to have had nerves of steel and been able to act rationally rather than emotionally. I was able to sense that the aggressor was confused by my breaking his hold when he grabbed me and further confused by me verbally resisting his demand for my wallet. I was able to escape him by turning and running while he was not expecting it and jumping over a planter and making it back to the customer service desk of the grocery store. This was lucky because he was in all likelihood faster than I was so I must credit my safety that day to my response being unexpected rather than deftly and hastily executed.

I would have to say that in my experience, a gun would be an asset to maintaining your safety unless you are unwilling to shoot the aggressor when you are forced to draw your weapon. This doctrine does require you to never draw the weapon unless your life or limb is being threatened.

If you are unable or unwilling to fire your weapon or not sufficiently practiced, that is when the weapon is a liability. If you are willing to train yourself to use the weapon proficiently and you are mentally prepared to value the life of your aggressor to the same extent that he values yours, being armed is definitely an improvement over having brought fists to a knife fight.

Having been threatened once before this assault during a burglary I interrupted at my house, I no longer view the criminals as having any more value than bacteria and if one threatens my life then I am prepared to disinfect the threat.

Regards,

Cameron

Your Old Dog
11-29-2010, 10:56 PM
I haven't read the entire thread but will offer this.

In my opinion, I don't think your question can be answered by other people. You either feel comfortable with what you plan to do or your don't. May folks are leery of firearms because they don't trust themselves. I have every confidence in myself and have carried concealed for over 30 years. I have a Colt Officers 45, S&W 357 with round but and 3" tube, Walther TPH in 22 LR for extreme conceal and several 22's for plinking in the back yard. The one I carry the most is the S&W Model 60 in 357 w/3" tube and round butt. It's a 5 shot and if you can't get the job done with 5 shots at an average distance of 21 feet then 50 more rounds aren't likely to help you either.

http://www.randymays.com/Model_60-15_2_rotated_640.jpg

gwilson
11-29-2010, 10:57 PM
Elmer Keith,a famous handgun expert,said the MINIMUM handgun for self defence should be a .357 magnum. Otherwise,you might just make someone mad enough to kill you before they bleed out(in 5 minutes).

This sheriff thought a cowboy was a wanted man,and EMPTIED his 9MM Luger into him. The cowboy said"are you finished shooting?" Then,he killed the sheriff with 1 .45 slug.

I keep a .45 S&W model 1917 revolver for self defense. Revolvers do have some advantages: They don't have to be manipulated if they mis fire. Just squeeze off another shot. They are not particular about their ammo. If you don't use the correct type ammo,like round ball as opposed to hollow point,in an automatic,often it will not cycle. I got a .380,which is a PUNY caliber. It would not cycle with Hydro Shock ammo,so I sold it. 380 is a .38 SHORT. You CAN now get hot loaded .380 now,but make sure the pistol is up to the task of handling it. There are,of course,double action autos,but a double action pistol doesn't have to be cocked. A revolver doesn't have to have the safety clicked off to shoot it. You can tell at a glance if it's loaded(except some .22's). I like hollow points in a self defense gun,and the revolver will always shoot anything you put in it,if it's the right caliber.

As for police accuracy,when I was younger,4 highway patrolmen lived on my street out in the country. We used to walk to the end of the street and shoot. I swear,I would have killed all of them in a gunfight. And,their personal weapons were SUCH crap!!!

If I had to carry a gun,like them,and stop all kinds of strangers,i'd sure as hell be a better shot than ANY of those guys. I don't think any of them knew the personal danger they were in,being so incompetent with their revolvers.

One of them pulled from under his cruiser's seat a 12 gauge double barreled shotgun with 12" barrels,and the stock cut into a pistol grip. Illegal as can be. He said it was his(N word)gun. I didn't want to get in trouble with that jerk,so I said nothing about it. If he ever used it,he would(hopefully) have been in a lot of trouble. Those guns WERE legal back in the 20's. I saw a pair of original Stevens car guns.

Evan
11-29-2010, 11:12 PM
Yep, my main concern is unknowingly walking in on someone inside my house.

Put a motion sensor inside the house where it isn't obvious. Wire it to an outside light. Set the turn off delay to maximum. Aim it so the dog won't set it off. Even simpler, put a magnetic switch on the bedroom door and leave it closed when you go out. Have that turn on the outside light. The bedroom is the first place a B&E punk will go to check the drawers. They will also leave the door open as they do and when they go into the rest of the house.

mochinist
11-29-2010, 11:20 PM
Can't mention that here Mochinist -- it's illegal in Canada :pI forget that this a multinational forum sometimes:p

Picoprecision
11-29-2010, 11:27 PM
Everything I have read and been taught recommended a minimum of .357 or a .40 cal for self defense carry.

Personally, I wouldn't carry a .357 or similarly powerful handgun loaded with anything but hollow points. Consider the danger presented by rounds that can pass completely through the target.

Anyone who has aspirations of being a cowboy needs to forget about owning a gun. Killing is serious business. Stealing my lawnmower isn't justification for killing a thief. Imminent threat to life should be the only justification for killing. Disagree all you want....

If you aren't committed to getting and staying familiar with the operation of your chosen firearm, don't own one. Count on the cops and prayer. The latter will probably be more useful.

Your accuracy and ability to shoot in an emergency situation degrade rapidly if you don't shoot often. You'd be surprised how often I see people close their eyes just as they pull the trigger. Practice.

A few years ago, a buddy won our state tactical handgun competition. He said that most LEOs couldn't even qualify. I am sure there are exceptions.

Dirk

alanganes
11-29-2010, 11:37 PM
Well, then there is the:

combo Taser & MP3 player, with leopard skin finish, of course... (http://gizmodo.com/341692/taser-gun-%252B-mp3-player-%252B-leopard-skin--one-insane-gadget)

Carld
11-29-2010, 11:40 PM
Pgmrdan, from what you have posted I agree with others that you should find a gun shop with a range and try some pistols. I prefer the M1911 .45 but it's to big to carry concealed. My next choice is the S&W Chief Special .38. It's compact and I load mine with hollow points and I have a CC permit.

It is VERY important to be extremely familiar with the gun you choose and shoot it until your very comfortable with it. It's also and good idea to unload it and practice drawing it from the CC holster you choose until you can draw it with easy from any position and during any movement. Your life may depend on it.

It's also a good idea to practice drawing with the other hand. That is, if your right handed and carry it inside your pants in a holster practice drawing it upside down with your left hand and dry firing it. That too may save your life.

It's better to be extremely proficient with your gun than barely able to handle it. Take the CC course, learn what you can and can't do to defend yourself. Then carry it all the time and most importantly be aware that you are carrying it.

x39
11-30-2010, 12:22 AM
A firearm is a tool, just like a lathe or milling machine. If you aren't proficient in its use, particularly under stress, you're going to have poor results. If you decide to get, and more importantly carry a handgun for defensive purposes, first do yourself and the world a favor and get proficient with it. Taking a handgun safety course will not make you proficient, it will only insure that you know how to operate the weapon safely. Proficiency takes practice, lots of it. I've been shooting action pistol regularly for a few years now, and while I don't consider myself a good shot, I'm WAY better than I was when I started. My first time on an action pistol course was an eye opener, to put it mildly. Finally, when you have attained a level of proficency you are comfortable with, are you prepared to face the legal, moral, and social responsibilites and possible consequences that come with carrying and/or deploying a lethal weapon? If you are in doubt on any count, you should probably pass.

smiller6912
11-30-2010, 12:59 AM
A compromise might be the new Kel Tec PMR30. I have had mine for a few weeks now and I love the gun. It is a semi auto chambered in .22 Mag (WMR), with a 30 round magazine (2 of them) and fiber-optic match sights. It is very accurate and a pretty good trigger. It's not quite as cheep to shoot as the .22 LR but the ballistics go way up and getting closer to those of the 38 Spcl. It would be great to dispatch a nasty old groundhog and could be considered (with 30 rounds) to be closer to a real self-defence gun.

.RC.
11-30-2010, 01:13 AM
This is what I would pack :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd3tUg6Dj1Y

gnm109
11-30-2010, 01:15 AM
All due respect to poster or posters above but I can't imagine that 15 rounds of hollow point bullets from a 9mm handgun won't stop someone. That's an awful lot of lead. Maybe even one round between the eyes would handle matters. It seems to work on the streets here in Sacramento when the gangs shoot at one another.

My two favorites, and I've been shooting for many years, are the 9mm Beretta Model 92 and my stainless steel .22 WMR Taurus 8 shot. The 357 is also a wonderful cartridge, excellent for defense, but I haven't got one of those. I live in a rural area and I prefer having a shotgun handy for burglar duty at home.

Unfortunately, they won't allow CCW permits here. That only prevents us honest folks from carrying weapons. The crooks haven't heard about that.

.

PeteF
11-30-2010, 01:38 AM
I'll stop munching on my popcorn for a moment and before the thread is locked, as it invariably will be, say that I've never understood the American fascination with guns. I always love the justification that it's for "personal protection" ... "just wait a minute Mr Mugger, I have my Glock here somewhere ... scratch scratch scratch ... yeah yeah, just wait a moment, I know you want my wallet but when I find my 'piece' THEN I'll show you who's boss ... scratch scratch scratch, now where the heck did I put that thing ... just wait, my memory's not like it was you know!"

If somebody is holding a weapon to me they can have my wallet, if they were going to kill me they would have done it already. As for breaking into my house, I'll help them load my TV if it means that much. Where I live we have insurance! As for protecting from "cougars" WTF :rolleyes: Look up the number of accidental shootings in the US! Particularly the comparison of children killed by accidental firearm discharge versus children killed by being mauled by cougars!

Anyway, back to my popcorn :D

BTW yes I have used firearms quite a lot some years ago. And yes I have lived in areas where humans are most definitely NOT top of the food chain, so over-sized pu$$y cats don't rate I'm afraid. If you want a gun to shoot at xxxx then fair enough, just don't try to kid yourself or anyone else that it's for "personal protection".

lenord
11-30-2010, 01:45 AM
Most gun manufacturers have guns made specifically for conceal and carry use. I found two to start with.

www.smith-wesson.com (http://www.smith-wesson.com) is one.
www.taurususa.com/whats-new.cfm (http://www.taurususa.com/whats-new.cfm) is another.



FWIW
Lenord

Picoprecision
11-30-2010, 02:01 AM
I'll stop munching on my popcorn for a moment and before the thread is locked, as it invariably will be,
Maybe not, Pete. The OP asked for suggestions and advice and he is receiving it. Not every discussion on this forum has to degenerate into a slugfest to prove who is RIGHT.


If you want a gun to shoot at xxxx then fair enough, just don't try to kid yourself or anyone else that it's for "personal protection".

Maybe where you live. I'd suggest that the news in the US is biased against any positive reporting of defensive use of firearms, but I'd sound like one of those gun nuts. :)

http://gunowners.org/sk0205.htm

Dirk

PeteF
11-30-2010, 02:29 AM
Dirk, it's always possible to find isolated incidents counter the trend to help push one's barrow; I'd hardly call gunowners.org impartial ;) It reminds me of those who try to argue that seatbelts in cars are "dangerous" and quote the few cases where people not wearing them have been thrown clear in a major accident in an attempt to justify their argument.

I've spent quite a bit of time in the US but from an outsider's perspective I'm just saying I find the typical excuses to own/carry a firearm simply bizarre. Yet some get absolutely fanatical (on both sides of the argument) about the topic. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING I will say here is going to change anyone's opinion one iota, so I won't even attempt to try. But I'd leave those clinging to the tenuous excuse that they "need" a firearm for self-defence with this thought/scenario. You're walking along with your wife minding your own business. I walk up behind you and stick something in your back and tell you it's a gun. You believe me (it is). I demand your wallet, but lucky for you you're carrying your trusty concealed weapon. Do you seriously, SERIOUSLY mean to tell me that with a cocked gun in your back you're going to reach for your own weapon, swing around, and accurately discharge it? Indeed apparently numerous times by all accounts of some stories told here. Precisely how many times do you think I would have shot you by then? Up to that stage you'd lost your wallet and had a heck of a scare. Or does the scenario conclude that you hand over your wallet, and as I'm running off you then swing around and a gun fight breaks out like in a B grade western movie? I think you guys have been watching too much Hollywood, it's not real you know!

As I said, just 2 cents from an outsider looking on in bemusement. Carry on ;)

Cobbler
11-30-2010, 02:44 AM
Here's one way it could go down...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0D78JtxmqI

Picoprecision
11-30-2010, 02:45 AM
Pete, I appreciate your opinions, and out of deference to the OP, I'll make this my last post in what is becoming OT to the original thread.

Find me an unbiased person anywhere, on any topic that matters to them.

The scenarios you present are indeed, indefensible for the victim. There are others that are not. The thugs and gangsters here are shooting real bullets, Pete. Nothing Hollywood about it.

You have discounted the credibility of my link. Okay.

From a personal standpoint, I have a right and a duty to do anything I can to defend my family and to the extent possible, my neighbors.

I grieved for the Husband/father and victims of those two animals(edit: who went on trial)in CT this year. It is easy to be a Monday morning quarterback, but there is a strong possibility that when the police arrived here a half hour after they learned what was happening, there would have been a different outcome. Maybe not. I simply believe in stacking all odds possible in my favor. If that seems ridiculous, so be it.

Dirk

A.K. Boomer
11-30-2010, 09:06 AM
The "odds" game is a slippery one to pin down, people need to make their own choice and that's that, and realize their choice can effect others there trying to "protect" in either a good or bad way.
there are arguments for and against.


I will add this - crooks are like terrorists -- if both you and they are armed then they hold the trump card no matter what, its called the element of surprise.

They can even make out against a very experienced individual without either the trump card OR the firearm,

Yesterday a semi-local police officer was put to rest - he pulled a car over that was stolen - he and the unarmed occupant got into a scuffle and the officers own gun was used against him, 3 times, this was a veteran of the force and a pretty big in-shape guy to boot.


Guns are by no means a "cure all" and it's important to recognize they come with their own set of problems.
Same as not owning one...

Black_Moons
11-30-2010, 09:22 AM
*shrugs* I just live my life without fear of being muged by armed (and with body armor?) gangsters hell bent on murdering me in the street for no apparent reason.
Its worked so far I guess. Maybe its just where I live or something, Or maybe its the fact im many times more likey to be run over by a car, or killed by someone I know, Or slip and fall and smash my head open on the cement stairs like I did last week. Weird thing was, I was 5' away from the stairs at the time going the other way, Turned around because I forgot something in the house and sliped head first into a stair.

I really gotta watch out for ice more often, Think maybe with a gun I could shoot the ice? Sorry, Just trying to be ontopic with this post.

http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/death_stats.html
Apparently cars account for 1.8% while firearms are only 1.2% overall.
Influenza and Pneumonia account for 2.7%, Making dying from encountering someone with a cold more likey then encountering someone with a gun.

Major Cardiovasular Diseases ranks 39% overall. I should REALLY eat better if I plan on getting killed some other way.

vpt
11-30-2010, 09:25 AM
I as well don't have a hand gun unless you call a Co2 BB hand gun a hand gun. I have all kinds of long guns from 10G double barrel side by sides to .22's. I have shot hand guns before and to me they seem to much like a toy. I notice lots of people that shoot handguns are fairly (loose) with them and don't treat them totally like a gun. I myself have thought about getting something small as well like a .22lr or similar just in case something someday would happen where it would be nice to have. Not so much for intruders or robbers but something unknown where a handgun is almost a must.

I have found out just two days ago that a aluminum base ball bat isn't as safe as one would think with kids. I keep my guns locked up in a safe and a fairly heavy aluminum baseball bat next to the bed. Well my 2 year old got ahold of my bat just the other day and smashed my toilet apart.

Your Old Dog
11-30-2010, 09:40 AM
I carry not only for my own safety, but for the safety of my family and even you nay-sayers who may be in the same restaurant I'm in when someone barges in with mass homicide in their heart.

The nay-sayers can load up their fingers tips with 911, that loud report they hear will be me attempting to save my own life because it's the shift change hour at Police HQ....

You only site the guns that cause problems. The guns that DON'T kill people don't get mentioned. In the eyes of some, the guns that save people are always the exceptions? And PeteF, if the thread does get locked up we will all know who blew out a multi post on topic thread in a sour direction. You throw the bait out there and expect no one to comment? :rolleyes:

jdunmyer
11-30-2010, 10:06 AM
PeteF,
There's one very good reason that many Americans carry a concealed weapon:

Because we can.

That's good enough for me.

vpt
11-30-2010, 10:09 AM
If everyone carried a gun would anybody be robbed any more?

Would planes get highjacked, gas stations get robbed, etc?

jep24601
11-30-2010, 10:15 AM
I carry not only for my own safety, but for the safety of my family ......
One of the statistics carried on the gun-phobe sites is that if a loaded gun is kept in the house then there is a 13x greater chance of a family member being shot than of an intruder being shot. If this is true then you would think that even the responsible pro-gun sites would make mention of that fact in their members (and members families) interest.

The problem in finding balanced arguments and relevent statistics arises from the extreme polarisations apparent on the issue. I mentioned this in an earlier thread and was referred to the department of Justice site - but that only deals with gun crimes. The gun-phobe sites concentrate on teen suicides and the risk to family members(as quoted above) while the gun-nut sites concentrate on crime issues and make no mention of family risk issues.

Still would like to find a balanced issue site with an understanding of statistics.

ikdor
11-30-2010, 10:44 AM
If everyone carried a gun would anybody be robbed any more?

Would planes get highjacked, gas stations get robbed, etc?

There would still be robberies, but none of the victims would survive the event. If everybody is armed, logic dictates that you need to kill someone to rob them.

The problem with arming everyone is that you arm all the idiots. The idea that the US would be safer place when one million (guesstimate) meth addicts are carrying guns is beyond me.

Igor

Abner
11-30-2010, 11:05 AM
I also live in a rural area and to ask myself these very same questions. Every gun owner I know has their favorites, and reasoning to back their decisions. My comments are not to enter in debate but rather explain why I choose what I did.
We have meth-high mushroom pickers out our way and my one (1) encounter with 2 of them was clearly a point where I got the hell away from them ASAP. What ever that stuff does to these guys is frightening. I think they would keep coming at you even with lethal injuries.
We also have cougars. Sure they can jump on you from behind but WTF? My and my neighbors encounters have been in broad daylight to total darkness. These cats may not attack but they are also not afraid - zero fear. I think whether they attack or not is a tactical decision on their part. The one neighbor had one creep toward him in the dark while he had a flashlight trained on it. He raised his flashlight above his head and then the cat took off.
I have a picture of one small cat walking/trotting down the road ahead of my truck. Walking - not running. Didn't seem fearful until I pulled up toward it.
We have as many sightings at 2 pm as all other combined.

I have had enough confrontations with people usually young males doing something they shouldn't and often intoxicated, while being armed with a loaded shotgun. I can tell you from experience that having a visible weapon heightens the tension out of proportion to the desired outcome - getting them to as calmly as possible to leave the area.

I called a local sheriff I know and asked him - giving him the same dual reasons that you have. His advice 'made sense'. He recommended a revolver. Any situation you get into where you think you will need a handgun will be high stress. His comments are that a semi-auto will need the shell jacked in - more time involved, possibly vital delay, and will you even remember under stress? Jamming is another issue he mentioned again under stress.

He recommended a dbl action revolver. Basically it is point and shoot. No question, and possible delay, about whether it is ready to go. I'm a big guy with big hands. Small easy to conceal handguns had to small of grip. I ended up with a Ruger GP101 .357 mag. You cannot hide this thing up front on you. I bought a holster that keeps it in the small of my back. I like this for several reasons. If I confront someone; it isn't visible so doesn't escalate the situation. I keep my back away from them at all times approaching and leaving. I practice removing it with and without firing to get it as fast and controlled as possible.

I have never yet (knock on wood) been unable to talk to someone and one way or the other get them to leave or at least stop - dumping trash, target practicing, what ever.

As for ammo... It will take a .38 special. The most 'accurate round' (bullet and powder combination) for my revolver will fit that casing. As I load myself I bought XJP hollow point bullets. This is a seriously dangerous round.

You want a gun/round that you can control accurately. And like everyone else says practice. Shooting all over the place in a stressed out situation is not what you want.

They make speed reloaders for revolvers, which help if you need more rounds.

Be very careful how you practice. The seemingly non important issues like standing still and picking up shell casings will become the fall back habit you will default to in a stressed out non thinking just reacting situation.

One more thing the sheriff mentioned. A .357 is not a big game hunting round. I get his point. I have hunted a number of years - wild animals are incredible tough.

I would not buy a laser sight, it shows your location. I would however recommend the illuminated sights - don't know what they are called and haven't bought any yet. Great in low light situations where you can see your target but not your sights

Hope this helps
Abner

Carld
11-30-2010, 11:08 AM
Pete lives in Australia, a country that has extremely controlling laws on firearms and only 5% of adults own firearms. Knowing that can give you insight as to why he feels the way he does. Unless he can prove a real need for a firearm of any type he CAN'T own one and he can't carry one for protection unless he is police or a body guard.

Only a fool would try to draw against a gun pointed at you. We did that in demonstrations when I was in fast draw and the person drawing could out shoot the one with the drawn and cocked gun but if the guns had real bullets both would have been shot. It's a lose, lose situation.

At a demonstration we put on a Ky state patrolman told me you can't fast draw a Sam Brown holster. The next year at a demo he was at I proved him wrong and turned some very fast times on the clock, not as fast as our western rigs but fast none the less and with the strap snapped down on the holster as it would be carried on duty.

Whether you carry a gun or not you need to act like everyone is going to attack you. That's crazy you say, but it's not. Someone looking to rob you wants someone that is not aware of what's going on around them. If your constantly looking at everyone around you and where your going they will look for someone else to rob. The police will tell you the same thing, look around you, know if someone is following you or watching you, let your sixth sense kick in, don't become a victim. Let someone else be the victim is how I feel.

Abner
11-30-2010, 11:19 AM
I couldn't agree more trying to draw on a gun pointed at you is foolish. Another reason I like mine behind my back. I can talk move my hands around some and they will not overreact and shoot me.

gnm109
11-30-2010, 11:24 AM
Dirk, it's always possible to find isolated incidents counter the trend to help push one's barrow; I'd hardly call gunowners.org impartial ;) It reminds me of those who try to argue that seatbelts in cars are "dangerous" and quote the few cases where people not wearing them have been thrown clear in a major accident in an attempt to justify their argument.

I've spent quite a bit of time in the US but from an outsider's perspective I'm just saying I find the typical excuses to own/carry a firearm simply bizarre. Yet some get absolutely fanatical (on both sides of the argument) about the topic. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING I will say here is going to change anyone's opinion one iota, so I won't even attempt to try. But I'd leave those clinging to the tenuous excuse that they "need" a firearm for self-defence with this thought/scenario. You're walking along with your wife minding your own business. I walk up behind you and stick something in your back and tell you it's a gun. You believe me (it is). I demand your wallet, but lucky for you you're carrying your trusty concealed weapon. Do you seriously, SERIOUSLY mean to tell me that with a cocked gun in your back you're going to reach for your own weapon, swing around, and accurately discharge it? Indeed apparently numerous times by all accounts of some stories told here. Precisely how many times do you think I would have shot you by then? Up to that stage you'd lost your wallet and had a heck of a scare. Or does the scenario conclude that you hand over your wallet, and as I'm running off you then swing around and a gun fight breaks out like in a B grade western movie? I think you guys have been watching too much Hollywood, it's not real you know!

As I said, just 2 cents from an outsider looking on in bemusement. Carry on ;)


Nonsense Mate.

If someone breaks into your house and shoots you and your family, you'll feel different if you survive.

In Sacramento, where I am, they have been working to stop home invasion robberies for many years. Gangs of robbers will target a house, break in and torture them until they give up their valuables.

I won't tell you what I think about your prognostications.

Carld
11-30-2010, 11:26 AM
Plus, with it in the rear you can draw the gun rather than your wallet and with the right movement of body you may come out alive and him dead or wounded.

To defend yourself in an armed robbery you can't just draw and fire, every situation has to be analyzed and you have to read the body language. You have to look for opportunities to get away or shoot and it's better to get away.

Willy
11-30-2010, 11:33 AM
It's good that crackheads don't know who is armed and who is not.
Like a shell game.

I sure as hell would not put a sign on my front lawn announcing to the world that no weapons are on this property!

But yes guns are not for everyone, and I'm glad of that as a lot of citizens are dangerous enough in their cars.:D

GKman
11-30-2010, 11:45 AM
I use a Bersa 380 automatic around the farm.

With about 100 shots, it has never failed. Thats important.
I don't shoot for a hobby so I'll never get used to the noise and shock. With this gun it's not a problem. With a 357 or some other cannon I wouldn't be able to concentrate on shooting. I'd be thinking about the kick, blast etc. I'm confident that I can hit close to the middle of someone within 20 feet. I don't think I could do that with a big gun. On the second or more shots I'd be much more accurate with a smaller gun.

Main use is for coons and possums. I live trap them so I don't kill a dog or cat by accident then shoot the varmints. Humans are a lot bigger but are made out of the same muscles and guts. Seeing what a hollow point does to a coon make me think a person would change intentions quickly if hit in the gut with one.

Friend had people trying out a 38 with a 2" barrel at his farm recently. They quickly switched from a pop can to a 10" tree at 10' and only one of three shooters could hit it consistently.

Pawn broker that sold me a pump 12 gage said he had just read that if a person with a handgun encounters an intruder in his house he has a 50/50 chance of needing to fire it. With a shotgun it drops to 1 in 7. My first choice.

gwilson
11-30-2010, 11:50 AM
We KNEW a very liberal(non gun) family in Richmond. A pair of robbers broke into their house,tied up the mother,father,and 3 kids. Then,they cut their throats and set the house on fire. neighbors called the fire dept,but the whole family was dead.

i'm not letting ANY stranger invade this house without my gun in my hand. You don't know who they are,what they want,or anything about them. They get into my house,they get shot.

One night I was laying in bed with a nearby window up about a foot. There was a LATCHED screen on the window. Someone started messing with the screen. Lucky for them,they gave up and left. My handgun was right beside me.

When they took the guns away in Australia,I understand robberies increased a lot.

There is a town in Georgia,where a law was passed that every household HAD to have a gun. Robberies dropped right off in that town.If they had started CUTTING the screen,I would have been ready for them as soon as they got half way in the window. I lived in a lone house,no neighbors,but with a bad neighborhood some blocks back through the woods from me.

There have been several robberies in this area lately. We got a message from the sheriff's dept. about them. Jerks come to your door,and ask if "Mike",or some other made up name lives there. If no one answers,they break in. This happened to my old Journeyman,Jon. Girl in 20's came to his door. Boyfriend with tatoos all the way down his arms stayed at their compact car. Car was parked so jon couldn't read the license plates. She wants to know if her AUNT lives there. Jon's house is 2 miles up a dirt road through the woods,no other houses. He has 100 acres. He knew it was B.S.,but they drove off. He reported the incident and descriptions to the sheriff.

By the way,a .357 doesn't kick hard at all. My 1917 S&W .45 kicks much more because it has old fashioned SMALL grips that impact a small,more concentrated part of your palm. So,don't be wooses about a .357.

Boucher
11-30-2010, 11:54 AM
The two scariest sounds an intruder can hear, The click clack of a pump shotgun, the knuckle cracking sound of a single action pistol being cocked.

gwilson
11-30-2010, 12:01 PM
Shotgun IS BEST,IF you are in your house where you can keep 1 handy.

Willy
11-30-2010, 12:14 PM
The shotgun is my first pick as well.
Not only more accurate in a stressful situation but more important is the fact that it will not over penetrate a building.
Once a round leaves the barrel of a high powered handgun or rifle there's no calling it back. The person in the next room or two houses down could conceivably be an unintended victim.

garagemark
11-30-2010, 12:30 PM
Perhaps some of you watch too many cop shows or movies. Armed defense isn't like TV in real life. Been there- but have little need of re-living it. It was just bad for everyone involved.

A firefight will not last for 15 rounds, or usually even six rounds- unless you are stupid. And if you ARE stupid enough to stand there for a 15 round exchange, you are more than likely dead and not reading this anyway. **** happens fast. Too fast. Assuming you can even think that fast. Good cops train for years to think that fast. You do not. I do not. Bad cops die young.

Unless you fire hundreds of rounds a week under similar pressured circumstances, you probably couldn't re-acquire your target after the first shot, much less after two. After that you simply fire wildly. Your heart is pounding through your chest. Your adrenaline is in overdrive. You are scared! Anyone who thinks it would be different is purely kidding themselves. Yeah, we'd all like to think we would just do it for the good of our family- and some of you might be able to pull it off. But it isn't as cut and dried as just pulling the ol' piece out and shooting someone.

I am well armed at home, and carry a concealed piece. I carry mostly for animal protection in the woods when trout fishing in the mountains. I shoot many rounds at a given session and reload for it. Until recently I could dance a tin can along the ground for six rounds (my eyes and reflexes are waning a bit). But nothing could prepare me for what actually happened a few years ago. I survived... but that’s about all. It’s always in the back of my mind.

But enough of that. Assuming you are cowboy enough, the best home defense round I have EVER found is a .38 special case, a few grains of Bullseye (don’t remember the exact measure, but spit it out at about 850-900 FPS), a magnum primer, and a 148 grain hollow base wadcutter with a copper skirt loaded upside down (seated flush with the case mouth, slight crimp). The skirt prevents leading in the barrel, and the hollow side up will expand like crazy at short range. The slower speed also makes for a more controllable gun and a bullet that does not do as much peripheral damage to the surroundings. It WILL open a hell of a gash in a human though. Gun size is your choice- whatever you are comfortable with. I use one of two S&W model 66’s, but any .38 revolver would do the job. Yes, I prefer a revolver.

Oh, and if you have to talk yourself into a sidearm- save your time and money.

lazlo
11-30-2010, 12:43 PM
I've never understood the American fascination with guns.

It's a cultural thing. Same reason we're very attached to our cars, especially giant trucks and SUV's :)

I've been reading Leon Kapp's "The Craft of the Japanese Sword", and he was remarking how the katana is a cultural icon to the Japanese in the same way that the gun is to Americans.
The Japanese are raised with stories of Samurai and swordfighting, and we're raised with stories of the Wild West and the Alamo and the O.K. Corral.


Oh, and if you have to talk yourself into a sidearm- save your time and money.

I think that's the best advice I've seen. Go to a gun shop with a range, try out several handguns. I think that experience alone will make the decision for you.

Fasttrack
11-30-2010, 01:10 PM
PeteF,
There's one very good reason that many Americans carry a concealed weapon:

Because we can.

That's good enough for me.


Fair enough. :)

***

Thanks GarageMark and Willy - I really enjoyed your posts. A lot of good, level-headed advice there.

Rustybolt
11-30-2010, 01:51 PM
Dirk, it's always possible to find isolated incidents counter the trend to help push one's barrow; I'd hardly call gunowners.org impartial ;) It reminds me of those who try to argue that seatbelts in cars are "dangerous" and quote the few cases where people not wearing them have been thrown clear in a major accident in an attempt to justify their argument.

I've spent quite a bit of time in the US but from an outsider's perspective I'm just saying I find the typical excuses to own/carry a firearm simply bizarre. Yet some get absolutely fanatical (on both sides of the argument) about the topic. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING I will say here is going to change anyone's opinion one iota, so I won't even attempt to try. But I'd leave those clinging to the tenuous excuse that they "need" a firearm for self-defence with this thought/scenario. You're walking along with your wife minding your own business. I walk up behind you and stick something in your back and tell you it's a gun. You believe me (it is). I demand your wallet, but lucky for you you're carrying your trusty concealed weapon. Do you seriously, SERIOUSLY mean to tell me that with a cocked gun in your back you're going to reach for your own weapon, swing around, and accurately discharge it? Indeed apparently numerous times by all accounts of some stories told here. Precisely how many times do you think I would have shot you by then? Up to that stage you'd lost your wallet and had a heck of a scare. Or does the scenario conclude that you hand over your wallet, and as I'm running off you then swing around and a gun fight breaks out like in a B grade western movie? I think you guys have been watching too much Hollywood, it's not real you know!

As I said, just 2 cents from an outsider looking on in bemusement. Carry on ;)



I worked in an area of Chicago where it was a crime to be white. You never went out to the fenced in parking lot alone and you never went out unarmed. As other did, who worked in that area, I had a "work" car a Datsun B210. On more than one occasion it had bullet holes in it when I left to go home at night.
You didn't go out in the morning saying to yourself,I hope I don't have to shoot somebody. You go out hoping you don't get shot.
As I said, 99.79 % of the time all you need to is let the bad guy know you're armed and they'll go away.
You don't want to get hurt. He doesn't want to get hurt. He'll go find somebody that isn't packing.
The frightening thing recently is latino gangs whos initiation includes going out and gunning down a stranger.


Hey! It's the U.S. get over it.

GKman
11-30-2010, 02:19 PM
We KNEW a very liberal(non gun) family...




We're a very liberal (three gun) family.

saltmine
11-30-2010, 02:28 PM
A 12 gage shotgun would be my first choice for "home defense". As far as "carry & conceal" goes, I'd be more inclined to hauling around a Taurus Judge (45-70/.410) or a good 'ol 1911 Colt ACP.45. I had a Sergeant once tell me that a .45 was the best "self defense" weapon because if you couldn't knock somebody down with 7 rounds, you could always beat them to death with it.

I have both. With a rash of home invasion roberies lately, I can only hope some dirtbag gives me the chance to use one of them.

dp
11-30-2010, 02:38 PM
If somebody is holding a weapon to me they can have my wallet, if they were going to kill me they would have done it already. As for breaking into my house, I'll help them load my TV if it means that much. Where I live we have insurance! As for protecting from "cougars" WTF :rolleyes: Look up the number of accidental shootings in the US! Particularly the comparison of children killed by accidental firearm discharge versus children killed by being mauled by cougars!

That choice is not denied you just because you are armed. You are cherry picking situational decisions. Personally I'd rather have the option you don't, but it is a mistake, as the observer (you) and as the one in possession of this option (me), to consider it the first choice for every situation. It is especially bad if the bad guy always thinks it is always your first choice as it makes their first choice in opening the encounter more impactful.

I would be more inclined to get killed in defense of my wife than in defense of myself, but I'd also try harder to be the second one to die (the perp being the first) in that situation.

MrDan
11-30-2010, 02:47 PM
I guess we could talk about abortion and religion and make this a passionate trifecta... Maybe not.

For qualifications, I shoot between 3-5000 rounds per year and have trained dozens of new shooters. I own and operate my own range and do some light gunsmithing, progressing towards heavier as I learn more here. I probably own any gun that will come up here.

First point, being unsure isn't an automatic disqualification for doing anything new. I'd still be living at home nursing mothers milk if that were the case. You're unsure if you want a handgun. You're cautiously curious. Good, nice place to start, I was there with machining a year ago.

It's hard to find good information on guns one way or the other. Either you are offensively pro-gun, or offensively anti-gun. We've seen some examples of both here. Since you are on the web, might I suggest something free. There are a few good pro-gun podcasts available, one being The Proarms Podcast which features as a major contributor Masaad Ayoob. I had hear bad things about Masaad in the past and for a lifetime have avoided whatever he had to say. Having heard him on the podacast, I'm sorry for the time I missed. The guy is VERY factual and is a walking historian. All of the people on the podcast are very successful and well educated. The topics range all over but you can pick the ones that apply most to you. You can listen as you drive or in your shop or whatever rather than listening to the radio. With podcasts, I haven't turned on the radio in years. Did I mention they are free?

Another podcast that I enjoy is The Gun Dudes. You'll accidentally learn something there. Mostly they are entertaining and learning sorta sneaks in while you're laughing. These are the kind of people you wish you could talk to, who aren't "gun nuts", just the guys next door who enjoys shooting and can answer your questions.

As for what gun to buy. Many of the old truisms of needing a 45 because it's big, or 38s won't kill people, my buddy the cop said so, etc. are exactly that, OLD. Much of the knowledge was correct at the time it was originally stated but much has changed since then. A 380 was considered to be a bad choice for a defensive round for quite a long time. Even a 9mm has had a bad reputation. The difference in today's ammunition and that of the past is dramatic.

I've noticed that if you ask someone like myself who is a civilian what to carry, the conversation will drift off into calibers, 45s, round capacity, etc. If you ask someone who carries for a living, they will often ask what the gun weighs and does it work EVERY TIME. Past that, they don't much care. Talking guns with a gun nut is like talking baseball with a baseball fanatic. I don't know what Barry Bonds batting average is and I don't know the feet per second on my defensive round. I don't care and if I did, it bores normal people.

Statistically, you'll carry your revolver for thousands and thousands of days. Statistically, you'll never fire it in anger. If you do fire the gun in anger, it will be because you chose to carry it every day, not because it's a 45. Pick a gun that you can and will carry comfortably every day. If it's a 380, fine. If it's a 45, fine. Just have something, that's 99% of the battle, and with deference to Yogi, training is the other 50%.

It's been mentioned here that "because a cop says" this, or a "cop says that". I went to college for criminal justice, on track to be a federal marshal. Many of my friends are police both state and federal. Guys, most department have VERY limited training budgets. Shooting is about 1% of what makes a cop a cop. There are MANY statistics showing that as a group they do not score very well in shooting situations. In my last CCW class there was a cop the instructor deferred to constantly because he was a cop. He failed his written and his shooting test, a test I literally shot left handed just to make it fun because it's so easy. Being a cop doesn't make you a gun expert just like being a pilot doesn't make you an ornithologist. There are master level shooters who are cops, but being a cop doesn't make you a shooter.

Btw, I can count three occasions where I needed and thankfully had a gun to defend myself or others in my lifetime. I never fired a shot and all is well. Not quoted facts, personal experience.

That's the long answer. Short answer is, if you'll train and practice, buy whatever you'll carry and like. If you won't train and practice period, go take karate or something. If you'll at least go once a year to the range, buy a small 357 revolver. Shoot 38s in it all day at the range, and 357s for the last rounds. If shooting the wrong loads made your a worse shot, then dry firing wouldn't make you a better shot.

wierdscience
11-30-2010, 03:22 PM
If everyone carried a gun would anybody be robbed any more?

Would planes get highjacked, gas stations get robbed, etc?

The DOJ does have data that spans the last thirty odd years showing a decline in violent crime coinciding with an increase in CC permits.

garagemark
11-30-2010, 03:23 PM
There are several ways to cure flinch (which can happen to just about anyone). My favorite is to have my wife load the gun (revolver). She will load some .38's, some .357 mag loads, and some empty chambers. God only knows what she might put in it. I have seen times when she put NO shells in the chambers, and other times straight up hot stuff... and everything else in between.

She does the same drill for my .44 mag hunting pistol as well (I gave up rifle hunting years ago).

Done enough times, it will cure the flinch. At least it did for me.

MrDan
11-30-2010, 03:48 PM
There are several ways to cure flinch (which can happen to just about anyone). My favorite is to have my wife load the gun (revolver). She will load some .38's, some .357 mag loads, and some empty chambers. God only knows what she might put in it. I have seen times when she put NO shells in the chambers, and other times straight up hot stuff... and everything else in between.

She does the same drill for my .44 mag hunting pistol as well (I gave up rifle hunting years ago).

Done enough times, it will cure the flinch. At least it did for me.

I'd say it will help an experienced shooter. Not sure on a new shooter but it is a MIGHTY fine drill. For a minute there I thought your wife was loading up your 357 and shooting at you. I know I'd flinch!

PeteF
11-30-2010, 03:58 PM
When they took the guns away in Australia,I understand robberies increased a lot.

That is complete and utter BS!

George Bulliss
11-30-2010, 04:08 PM
I have kept an eye on this thread since it started last night and have been surprised that, with only a few exceptions, it has been pretty civil. I donít see that lasting forever though and am going to lock it now.

George