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fishfrnzy
12-01-2010, 10:48 AM
There does not seem to be any end to the information on others that people feel entitled to save.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704679204575646704100959546.html?m od=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories

Sorry, should say OT

retusaf99
12-01-2010, 11:26 AM
Hmmm....In light of the WikiLeaks situation, what could possibly go wrong with what appears to be "super cookies" for anyone going on the net. :rolleyes:

dp
12-01-2010, 11:37 AM
Replace "save" with exploit.

Evan
12-01-2010, 11:38 AM
It's tough even for sophisticated Web surfers to tell if their gear is being fingerprinted. Even if people modify their machines—adding or deleting fonts, or updating software—fingerprinters often can still recognize them. There's not yet a way for people to delete fingerprints that have been collected. In short, fingerprinting is largely invisible, tough to fend off and semi-permanent

Easy to beat. Use a virtual machine. If you really want to beat it with no shred of doubt then boot from a live CD and use that to surf. Use a thumb drive for data persistence. The live CD will be exactly the same as every other copy in that distribution. The thumb drive isn't accessible to the web browser without direct user intervention.

dp
12-01-2010, 11:50 AM
Thumb drives don't have enough bandwidth to act as the sole destination of persistent data. It's takes a lot of IO even for small sizes of session data, and thumb drives have a limited lifetime.

Virtual machines are an excellent idea are are ideal for building out proxy gateways to limit exposure. I expect to see intelligent routers for home users become affordable, easy to operate, and subscriber-based to fill this need. A Blue Coat Home Edition version (does not exist yet) could run on an iPad size device, fully self-contained. http://www.bluecoat.com/

Black_Moons
12-01-2010, 12:07 PM
dp: What? Thats like saying a 1ghz cpu is not fast enough to run windows. It all depends on exactly how much speed you actualy 'Need', Need being very subjective here.

Also speed of USB drives also varys greatly.

squirrel
12-01-2010, 12:18 PM
There does not seem to be any end to the information on others that people feel entitled to save.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704679204575646704100959546.html?m od=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories

Sorry, should say OT
This whole internet thing is going to choke its self out, eventually. Deep packet is going to be implemented so NOTHING will be safe(we assume our ISP is not watching). Everyone is sitting on their hands and not doing a thing about it. If it was dramatized by the media it would become an issue, but media giants that benefit the most from advertising revenue do not want to lose their "Goose that is laying a golden egg"

dp
12-01-2010, 12:24 PM
dp: What? Thats like saying a 1ghz cpu is not fast enough to run windows. It all depends on exactly how much speed you actualy 'Need', Need being very subjective here.

Also speed of USB drives also varys greatly.

I considered editing that post to quantify the point but figured everyone was clever enough to understand the subjective point. It remains valid as there is a basic tenant in computing that user perception trumps performance charts and graphs. I deal with this every day at work - somebody "feels" the database is sluggish and no amount of hard data will sway them. :) The fact remains the lifetime and performance of thumb drives is inferior to other methods.

So it is my opinion that the typical end user would not accept thumb drive lifetime and performance limitations for day to day work, particularly given there are better methods (pure system RAM disk, for example). How's that?

madwilliamflint
12-01-2010, 12:51 PM
ugh. Time to install/write a solid proxy server that deals with as much of this as I can. Generic user agents, http "X-" attribute filtering, etc. I suspect I can nab most of this nonsense.

lazlo
12-01-2010, 02:13 PM
There does not seem to be any end to the information on others that people feel entitled to save.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704679204575646704100959546.html?m od=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories

It won't fly. Intel learned that lesson the hard way with Processor Serial Number, Microsoft learned it again with Palladium and the Trusted Computing Alliance.

Amusingly, the TPM (the hardware root key) from Palladium/TCA found a second life on the Apple platform, to keep you from running MacOS on standard x86 motherboards. But Apple users are a unique bunch, and don't seem to care that they can be uniquely identified by the TPM :)

lazlo
12-01-2010, 02:31 PM
Hmmm....In light of the WikiLeaks situation

The Wikileaks debacle is a mess, but doesn't it also piss you off that the world is so corrupt?

An Apache attack helicopter kills 12 civilians including several children and 2 Reuters reporters over a 10 minute period, and when Reuters requests the gun camera tape under the Freedom of Information Act, the Pentagon swears they can't find the tape. Then Pfc Manning leaks the video, and the Pentagon screams that it's a threat to national security.

We've all seen the video -- there's not a damn thing on that tape that has anything to do with national security. It's unarmed civilians being red misted by a 30 mm cannon.

Then the same Pfc releases more dirty laundry, including the Obama administration paying other countries to expatriot Guantanamo bay prisoners. The Chinese government admitting that they did, in fact, hack Google because they stopped filtering Internet searches. The Saudis begging us to bomb Iran, the US, South Korea and China negotiating how they would divvy-up North Korea if it collapsed...

Is there any facet of any government that's not bullsh!t anymore?? :mad:

goose
12-01-2010, 02:33 PM
As a marketing tool I think it's overrated, and provides little advantage to cookies other than a less intrusive data gathering method. There's a point at which more information starts to tell you less and less, and I can't help thinking of my Amazon.com recommended products, which are not much more than throwing darts at a wall. Also, smart phones, probably have a usage life of 2 years or so(I'm guessing), before the user upgrades to a new phone/new carrier, starting the cycle over again.

Gary

Paul Alciatore
12-01-2010, 03:07 PM
The answer to this is to avoid purchasing any service or product that you are solicited to purchase via any internet means. Trash ALL e-mails that solicite you as a customer and put that company on your PERMANENT "no buy" list. Likewise for any pop-ups. Never use any company or product that is listed on the top or side of a search page: don't even click on these links. NEVER. And we should have complete and total access to how any such information is used: both on a personal level with complete specifics and on a general level as to how that data base was used- who bought it, what products did they sell with it, who had access to it (real names and functional contact information).

They only do these things because THEY WORK. I totally, 100% guarantee you that if they didn't work, they would not be used. Vote with your purchases or the lack of them.

As for privacy, we are not being well served by our government. Not at all. I feel that we should have total knowledge of any of our personal data that any data base that we are being included in. I feel that our credit ratings should be considered our property and we should have complete access to both the ratings and ALL information and decisions that contributed to that rating. We should have completely free and unlimited access to all this data as many times as we wish to access it. Oh, and INSTANT access, no delays. Let the commercial users of this data pay the cost of collecting it.

Where are our elected reprensatives on these issues? Where are they? The military could use their invisibility cloak.

Mcgyver
12-01-2010, 03:08 PM
As a marketing tool I think it's overrated, and provides little advantage to cookies other than a less intrusive data gathering method.

I attended a forum the other day of some start ups presenting their wares. All were focused on internet marketing; not selling stuff on the net, but the deep down underworld where adservers decide real time what to put infront you and while agencies buy the spot on a market, all real time. These were impressive people and ideas, well vetted before they got to the podium. The data they presented showed a strong continuing trend toward increased digital advertising spend and reduced tradition...no surprise there I guess, ...but it was impressive at just how much potential there is as these systems overcome problems.....by problems I mean the last barriers to them not just knowing who you are but what you're about and your intent.

Paul Alciatore
12-01-2010, 03:11 PM
As a marketing tool I think it's overrated, and provides little advantage to cookies other than a less intrusive data gathering method. There's a point at which more information starts to tell you less and less, and I can't help thinking of my Amazon.com recommended products, which are not much more than throwing darts at a wall. Also, smart phones, probably have a usage life of 2 years or so(I'm guessing), before the user upgrades to a new phone/new carrier, starting the cycle over again.

Gary

This is a very good point. And it goes somewhat counter to my point about these techniques only surviving because they work. However, the companies who purchase these services are also being deceived. And in many cases, they are not spending their money wisely. Those of us who make such advertising decisions need to become smarter. And we, the customers, need to teach these lessons.

dp
12-01-2010, 03:31 PM
Amusingly, the TPM (the hardware root key) from Palladium/TCA found a second life on the Apple platform, to keep you from running MacOS on standard x86 motherboards. But Apple users are a unique bunch, and don't seem to care that they can be uniquely identified by the TPM :)

http://www.osxbook.com/book/bonus/chapter7/tpmdrmmyth/

lazlo
12-01-2010, 04:01 PM
http://www.osxbook.com/book/bonus/chapter7/tpmdrmmyth/



http://technocrat.net/d/2006/11/4/10085/

The Infineon Trusted Platform Module as beneficial and useful in Intel Macs


From Amit Singh, author of Mac OS X Internals, an interesting article on the Infineon TPM 1.2 contained in all but the most recent Intel Macs.

When first announced the Trusted Platform initiative was universally reviled by technically minded free thinkers as a mechanism by which content providers would control computers we owned. In hindsight I don't believe that the module or its functionality is so reprehensible but rather the fact the hardware and software vendors are so untrustworthy. This is a sort of a pity because I think many people, especially laptop users could benefit from this module when provided by a trustworthy hardware manufacturer.



For those who aren't familiar, the Infineon TPM 1.2 that Intel uses in the Apple x86 platform is a Super Cookie: it's sole function is to provide RSA keys based on a "Root Key" -- a globally unique private key that Infineon programs into each TPM chip.

Apple makes the same lame claims that Microsoft did with Palladium: "Trust us, although the TPM is a Super Cookie that uniquely identifies your machine, we don't look at it -- We Promise!"



http://www.masternewmedia.org/news/2006/04/05/mac_security_the_evil_drm.htm

DRM protection and trusted computing enabling chip is found to be wired inside the new Intel-based Macs while no official statement, documentation or press release tells consumers about its existence.


Paolo Attivissimo reports:

I have been silent, up to now, on the new Macs with Intel processor. You may find it strange, being evident and unhidden my passion for Macs, but there's a reason for that and its name is Palladium.

To tell you the truth, it also has another name: "Trusted Computing". The name Palladium is a leftover of a Microsoft project of 2002, then awkwardly renamed Next-Generation Secure Computing Base, but it is still used, although improperly.

http://www.masternewmedia.org/images/infineon_chip.jpg


The basic idea of Trusted Computing is that security on a computer is obtained via hardware, through a specific chip dedicated exclusively to this task and called Trusted Platform Module (TPM). It's a very controversial project, as I wrote four years ago. Originally sold as a beneficial security system for users (which is partially true), trusted Computing and Palladium risk to open the doors to inviolable copy-protection systems and to censorship and surveillance issues to unprecedented levels.

squirrel
12-01-2010, 10:14 PM
However, the companies who purchase these services are also being deceived. And in many cases, they are not spending their money wisely.

That is an understatement, when our dot com was launched the Google CPC advertising was between $800-1000 USD per month and NEVER SOLD a thing. Then I got smart and went to the "old school" print ads in magazines route and the phone has not stopped ringing.

dp
12-01-2010, 11:30 PM
[INDENT]http://technocrat.net/d/2006/11/4/10085/

The Infineon Trusted Platform Module as beneficial and useful in Intel Macs


From Amit Singh, author of Mac OS X Internals, an interesting article on the Infineon TPM 1.2 contained in all but the most recent Intel Macs.

http://content.dell.com/us/en/enterprise/d/large-business/windows-7-security-trusted.aspx
http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/think/thinkvantagetech/security.html

I'm not seeing your point of singling out the Mac.

PeteF
12-02-2010, 12:07 AM
Easy to beat. Use a virtual machine.

Ah, don't think so. I use a heap of virtual machines, and they're each slightly different and just a machine, the same as if they were a real machine. As soon as you begin using them they begin to morph and change, therefore providing the tools required by organisations to fingerprint them. The only way to use a virtual machine in way you suggest would be to destroy the machine at the end of a session and create a new one each time you wanted to go back online again. NOBODY is going to do that, least of all people like myself who simply leave their machines running 24/7. As I type, on this machine alone, I have about 12-15 apps and 2 O/S running simultaneously across my monitors, there's no way in heck I'm going to trash it all at the end of each night! Even if you created a master machine to clone from (basically what I do), I think the fingerprinting technology is now sophisticated enough to recognise the clones as being the same physical machine.

oldtiffie
12-02-2010, 12:17 AM
If you don't want to be tracked or finger-printed, don't use your computer on the web.

I can't see the sense in getting unduly concerned about who tracks me so long as the risks are not too high.

I just shrug my shoulders and move on.

I try to deal with any matters of concern if and when I learn of them or if I need to - other-wise I move on.

If I have to "wear"or put up with it as part of the risk of using a computer - I do it.

A lot of this stuff leads to or is not far short of paranoia.

PeteF
12-02-2010, 12:25 AM
The answer to this is to avoid purchasing any service or product that you are solicited to purchase via any internet means. Trash ALL e-mails that solicite you as a customer and put that company on your PERMANENT "no buy" list. Likewise for any pop-ups. Never use any company or product that is listed on the top or side of a search page: don't even click on these links. NEVER. And we should have complete and total access to how any such information is used: both on a personal level with complete specifics and on a general level as to how that data base was used- who bought it, what products did they sell with it, who had access to it (real names and functional contact information).

Well, if I did that I would never have read the email from that nice Nigerian man who was kind enough to tell me that I'd won 15 billion dollars, and if he could trouble me for my complete banking details he would deposit it immediately in my account! I must be the luckiest guy on earth I think. He must be really stupid; I didn't even enter the lottery!

Edit: I'm with you Tiff, frankly I couldn't give a toss if somebody wants to track precisely how many porn sites I visit each day. Even my wife has given up caring on that front!! As long as you're keeping your nose relatively clean nobody really cares who you are.

dp
12-02-2010, 12:27 AM
A lot of this stuff leads to or is not far short of paranoia.

It doesn't matter what you think is important about you. What matters is what others think is important about you and what they do with what they know. What they do with what they know will be in their best interest and as it happens, possibly at your expense.

Your not paying attention, passively or belligerently, is part of the problem and is necessary for the black hats to succeed. Making claims of paranoia to computer security professionals such as myself is what keeps the gap between us. I'm on your side, believe it or not. Those who dig into your private information are not. The odd thing is I and others who work to protect privacy receive your insults and the bad guys get a free pass. It's one of the puzzling things about this job.

Astronowanabe
12-02-2010, 12:36 AM
If you are using firefox there is "NeverCookie"

http://nevercookie.anonymizer.com/

If you are REALLY paranoid you might want to add some random noise into your VM system clock so your not tracked via hardware system clock skew fingerprinting ..

oldtiffie
12-02-2010, 12:38 AM
Informed caution and reasonable care are about all that most people can do - me included.

I see people so distraught and hyper-ventilating about such stuff on a daily basis - it keeps the media and social net-works "buzzing" - and profitable.

I am willing to take a loss or a "hit" here and there on occasion if needs be - but that's life.

I can see and accept what you say and do Dennis but I do wonder why - and how - some people ever get their heads out from under the sheets or turn the lights on - let alone get out of bed and the house - or the bathroom.

Ken_Shea
12-02-2010, 12:45 AM
Dennis, you work to protect privacy because you get paid to do that, just like farmers dont get out of bed to feed me.

OT is right for the vast majority of internet users and I did not see his post as insulting to your vocation.
I have a full time job + and it does not permit me to spend the many hours to learn what you get paid for.
Consequently, we put up with what we have to, that's just the way it is, don't like it but deal with it as I can.

I mean this kind of stuff
"If you are REALLY paranoid you might want to add some random noise into your VM system clock so your not tracked via hardware system clock skew fingerprinting .."

What the hell does that mean?

Astronowanabe, not picking on you at all, it's just that kind of Greek that most of us just throw up our hands and say "what Ever".

Ken

PeteF
12-02-2010, 12:47 AM
It doesn't matter what you think is important about you. What matters is what others think is important about you and what they do with what they know. What they do with what they know will be in their best interest and as it happens, possibly at your expense.

Your not paying attention, passively or belligerently, is part of the problem and is necessary for the black hats to succeed. Making claims of paranoia to computer security professionals such as myself is what keeps the gap between us. I'm on your side, believe it or not. Those who dig into your private information are not. The odd thing is I and others who work to protect privacy receive your insults and the bad guys get a free pass. It's one of the puzzling things about this job.

Whoa, hold on there Dennis. You're talking computer SECURITY in terms of mining information and sensitive data from an individual's computer. This article related to computer IDENTIFICATION and they are a world apart. As you well know, even now a computer is identified far more that what many people would possibly realise when they visit a site, indeed by default we all have to have unique identifier at any particular point in time for the net to even work. But what is generally lacking is a permanent means to identify the computer's movements over a longer time. However that's a long way from spewing one's bank account details and secure passwords one might typically associate with security on a machine used in a domestic situation.

Edit: BTW I agree with others, I also didn't find Tiff's post at all having a go at computer security professionals, on the other hand I do agree with him in that scaring the public is a way to generate business and is used all the time in marketing different products. I'm afraid you didn't do your cause any favours by immediately lumping unique identification and "dig into your private information" into the same basket!

Evan
12-02-2010, 12:50 AM
As soon as you begin using them they begin to morph and change, therefore providing the tools required by organisations to fingerprint them.

Not if you boot from a live CD. The live CD can reside in a virtual CD rom on your hard drive and will boot clean every time you use it. Data that you download, favorites and anything else you want to keep goes to a thumb drive or in my case a ram drive. You unload the thumbdrive from time to time and every time you boot Ubuntu or even Windows XP Portable you are using a fresh install of the operating system. You will look exactly the same every time you use it. You will also look like anybody else doing the same thing.

PeteF
12-02-2010, 01:09 AM
Not if you boot from a live CD. The live CD can reside in a virtual CD rom on your hard drive and will boot clean every time you use it. Data that you download, favorites and anything else you want to keep goes to a thumb drive or in my case a ram drive. You unload the thumbdrive from time to time and every time you boot Ubuntu or even Windows XP Portable you are using a fresh install of the operating system. You will look exactly the same every time you use it. You will also look like anybody else doing the same thing.

Yes Evan. As I said above, just as an example I have some 15 apps open right now, plus 2 O/Ses, and pretty much all are being used and changed constantly. Your suggestion is nice in theory, but completely unworkable in the real world that most of the rest of us exist in. I could do precisely the same right now from starting up a clone but of course virtually never do unless I want a machine to trash. Starting off a green machine is a PIA.

.RC.
12-02-2010, 01:12 AM
[quote=lazlo]The Wikileaks debacle is a mess, but doesn't it also piss you off that the world is so corrupt?



It's unarmed civilians being red misted by a 30 mm cannon.

/quote]

Some of the people killed in that video were carrying AK47's, you could see them in the video... Wikileaks has a policy to attempt to destroy the US...

As for the latest "leak"... Amazing how the world is shocked that US foreign diplomats spy on other diplomats... I have not read anything in the media that I did not assume occurred already... Except for the dickhead politicians saying Assange should be assassinated, or arrested for "terrorism"..

KIMFAB
12-02-2010, 01:29 AM
If you look at the complete video you will see many guns and suspicious behavior throughout.
The problem is in the edited version this is not there.

As for the fingerprinting problem just use a separate computer for downloading your porn.

I agree with dp, just because you are not paranoid does not mean that they are not out to get you.

oldtiffie
12-02-2010, 01:31 AM
Seems a lot of people got "fingered (printed)" already already with those Wiki-leaks.

Astronowanabe
12-02-2010, 01:41 AM
Hey Ken don't worry, although technically correct, the clock skew thing was meant to be over the top.
I almost added remembering to properly ground your tinfoil hat if you tried this at home :D

Evan
12-02-2010, 02:09 AM
Your suggestion is nice in theory, but completely unworkable in the real world that most of the rest of us exist in.

Funny, it seems to work just fine here. This is Opera under Windows, IE under Windows and Konqueror pretending to be IE 5 running under Win 98 but really running under Knoppix Live.

http://ixian.ca/pics8/vm1.jpg

Knoppix boots within Windows using the Sun Virtualbox so you don't have to reboot the computer. Favorites are stored on my USB terabyte drive as well as anything else I need. The folder on the terabyte drive is backed up to an internal hard drive by SyncToy.

I can invoke the Sun VM anytime I want and whenever I do I can choose to start fresh or to restore the previous state. Obviously it takes some knowledge of systems to set this up but it isn't hard to make this into a plug and play distribution. I can also boot Win 98 using generic drivers so even the hardware can't be fingerprinted.

PeteF
12-02-2010, 02:50 AM
Evan for the THIRD time, most people use a computer for more than simply surfing the internet and collecting favourites. What you chose to do with your machine is, of course, your own business. :rolleyes:

dp
12-02-2010, 03:01 AM
But what is generally lacking is a permanent means to identify the computer's movements over a longer time. However that's a long way from spewing one's bank account details and secure passwords one might typically associate with security on a machine used in a domestic situation.

I don't know where you came up with this but the reality is there's not an accurate word in it. I presume you are not aware that cookies are widely shared, for example. That's only the beginning - not all cookies associated with you are on your PC. TPM would be handy but it is hardly necessary.

In addition to providing free and unsolicited advice on computer security and user exposure I run computers that collect and exploit everything possible thing we learn about you do and I get well paid for it. Yes - I'm actively on both sides of the issue. One side pays my bills, the other clears my conscience.

dp
12-02-2010, 03:06 AM
I can invoke the Sun VM anytime I want and whenever I do I can choose to start fresh or to restore the previous state. Obviously it takes some knowledge of systems to set this up but it isn't hard to make this into a plug and play distribution. I can also boot Win 98 using generic drivers so even the hardware can't be fingerprinted.

The Sun VM product (Oracle, now) is one of the least efficient vm hosting packages out there, but what you say is exactly right regarding the security benefit.

If your vm hosting product supports snapshots (ability to restore to previous state) your worries are pretty much over. Even if it is not built in, it is still functionally possible by simply copying in a new master version over the top a previously run version. It's like Ground Hog Day, the movie :).

PeteF
12-02-2010, 03:15 AM
Well Dennis if you don't know how to erase cookies then that's hardly a glowing endorsement of your computer prowess is it. I stick solidly to what I said as being 100% true; there is no PERMANENT means to RELIABLY track the typical home computer over the internet and this is WHY fingerprinting is being sought. Why do you think it's being pursued, for a laugh and a giggle? The means to track the machine is EXTERNAL to the machine itself, and by and large permanent, hence much more difficult for a user to circumvent.

Edit: Incidentally, the ability to invoke a clone is hardly what anyone would call groundbreaking IT, of course it works from a security point of view. However as I have repeatedly pointed out, from a PRACTICAL point of view, using a machine in an everyday setting the very best one could hope for would be a cumbersome working environment while missing some of the attributes of modern browsers that make them increasingly customised to the user, hence easier to use. Still, if that's what floats your boat, go for it ;) BTW I am speaking from practical experience as I typically have at least one VM open at any time, and moving data between machines is a PIA compared to the pretty much seamless environment in doing so under the one machine.

Evan
12-02-2010, 07:25 AM
The part that you are missing Pete is that it won't be difficult to defeat fingerprinting. There is absolutely no reason to make it robust. The people using it couldn't care less about small groups of people such as us that even know what "fingerprinting" means in this context. We are not their target. They are interested in the unwashed masses that are trying to decide where to buy their next online romance novel or how to collect a few more air miles the next time they check out the weekly flyers before shopping.

A small bunch of geeky computer nerds are not in the play book and they are not concerned that we may discover to a way to defeat their efforts. It simply doesn't matter to them.

jugs
12-02-2010, 07:47 AM
[quote=lazlo]The Wikileaks debacle is a mess, but doesn't it also piss you off that the world is so corrupt?



It's unarmed civilians being red misted by a 30 mm cannon.

/quote]

Some of the people killed in that video were carrying AK47's, you could see them in the video... Wikileaks has a policy to attempt to destroy the US...

quote]

Good point, as some were carrying weapons then is OK to wipe the lot out !! :rolleyes:
So you are saying that, as some of the occupants of the twin towers would have been carrying concealed weapons &/or been involved with the arms trade, 9/11 was justified !!

The fact is -In both incidents we see - A group of foreigners, flying planes, in someone else's airspace, killing people for political ideals :mad: How come one is good & Which is which :confused:

[quote]
Wikileaks has a policy to attempt to destroy the US...



I recon the USA can do it quite well, without any help from Wikileaks, we in the west are starting to learn (belatedly) that might is NOT always right.

john
:)

lazlo
12-02-2010, 09:35 AM
The Wikileaks debacle is a mess, but doesn't it also piss you off that the world is so corrupt?

It's unarmed civilians being red misted by a 30 mm cannon.
Some of the people killed in that video were carrying AK47's, you could see them in the video...

It's an unarmed group of Reuters reporters. Two of the Reuters camera men are carrying telephoto lenses.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/ApacheGunCamera.png

The gunner calls back to base saying:


"Have five to six individuals carrying AK-47's.
Request permission to engage"

The air controller replies back:


"We have no men on the ground in that position"

But they still don't give them permission to fire. Then the same Reuters camera man with the telephoto lens rounds the corner, and peeks out, to see if the street is safe, and the gunner claims:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/ApacheGunCamera2.png

Does that look even remotely like an RPG? :( Especially since there's uninterrupted video of the same guy with a telephoto lens walking up to the corner.

Later in the video, after they've gibbed all those men, a van drives by a sees a pile of dead and dying men, and tries to get them to a hospital. The apache is still loitering, and calls in that there's a rescue mission that's been mounted for "the insurgents." They open fire on the mini-van, which is carrying a bunch of children.

The issue isn't that the Apache gunner exercised very, very poor situation assessment and judgement. It's war -- sh!t happens.

The issue is that the Pentagon tried to cover it up. Reuters, of course, was furious that an Apache killed their entire news crew, and attempted to subpoena the gun camera video. That's when the circus of "We can't find the video" started. The Pentagon even refused to admit that there were any collateral deaths in the area -- that the news crew (and the children in the mini-van) were actually armed combatants.

After the video was leaked, embarrassing the hell out of the Pentagon, they started screaming about national security.


Wikileaks has a policy to attempt to destroy the US...

"Wikileaks" isn't an organization. It's one young Australian kid. You need to separate the issue of how the material was leaked from the dirty, nasty stuff that governments of the world are doing.

On of the leaked diplomatic cable points out that the vast majority of Al-Qaeda operatives, and more importantly, funding, are coming from Saudi Arabia. Another cable is King Saud begging the US to bomb Iran's nuclear reactor. How screwed-up is that??? :(


Except for the dickhead politicians saying Assange should be assassinated, or arrested for "terrorism"..

Suddenly, there's an Interpol arrest warrant for Assange on rape charges. Totally a coincidence, of course -- only a Tinfoil Hat would wonder if the US government is putting the screws to Sweden and Australia to punish him...

Evan
12-02-2010, 09:49 AM
The only question I have is why isn't "Wiki leaks" dead? There must be a small crowd of covert agents elbowing each other to try and get at his brake lines.

Lew Hartswick
12-02-2010, 09:49 AM
[quote=.RC.][quote=lazlo]The Wikileaks debacle is a mess, but doesn't it also piss you off that the world is so corrupt?



It's unarmed civilians being red misted by a 30 mm cannon.

/quote]

Some of the people killed in that video were carrying AK47's, you could see them in the video... Wikileaks has a policy to attempt to destroy the US...

quote]

Good point, as some were carrying weapons then is OK to wipe the lot out !! :rolleyes:
So you are saying that, as some of the occupants of the twin towers would have been carrying concealed weapons &/or been involved with the arms trade, 9/11 was justified !!

The fact is -In both incidents we see - A group of foreigners, flying planes, in someone else's airspace, killing people for political ideals :mad: How come one is good & Which is which :confused:



I recon the USA can do it quite well, without any help from Wikileaks, we in the west are starting to learn (belatedly) that might is NOT always right.

john
:)

I often wonder what people like this would have said if they had been around in the 1940 to 1945 area. :-(
...lew...

SmoggyTurnip
12-02-2010, 11:03 AM
Does anyone think it is better that the advertisers know who we are and what we want? I was on facebook lastnight night and noticied several of the advertisements that were presented to me were about machining tools and equipment. I often read tool company catalogs for entertainment. If I always took the precautions that some of you are recomending those ads may have been for tampons and lipstick. Which would you rather look at?

Evan
12-02-2010, 11:48 AM
Generally I either see a blank spot on the page where the ad was supposed to be or some times a message that "Navigation to this webpage was cancelled" or sometimes nothing shows up at all to interrupt my reading pleasure. If I want to find something to buy I will go looking for it. Otherwise don't waste my time.

There is also the serious issue of invasion of privacy. Who knows how information that is gathered might be used in a negative way? Perhaps you need to find out information online about hemochromatosis. If that can be tied to a specific individual and an insurance company buys that information it will automatically be shared to all insurance companies. They have a cozy little arrangement to do that. Then you will find that you cannot buy medical or life insurance in the USA. You may also become unemployable. All this because they are adverse to a risk that doesn't exist when correctly treated. It even extends to Canada since most of our insurers are US companies.

The people that are doing the "fingerprinting" intend only one thing: To make as much money as possible selling the information to all comers.

SmoggyTurnip
12-02-2010, 11:55 AM
If there was no effective advertising on the internet (ie. every user figured out how to hide all ads and did) would the internet vanish or degrade into something usless? Would this site exist?

lazlo
12-02-2010, 12:08 PM
There is also the serious issue of invasion of privacy. Who knows how information that is gathered might be used in a negative way?

Flash cookies, for sure, are being used to track you, and most cookie cleaners don't remove them.

Try this experiment: filter all your ads, and clean all your cookies. Now go to YouTube, and search for a video on an obscure topic. Watch the video. Then go to Amazon. You'll find a whole bunch of suggested items related to that video.

That's Flash cookies.

If you look at the HTML for a many popular sites, they're downloading Flash cookies even when there's no Flash content on the damn web page. That's because they know it's much harder to delete the Flash cookies, and the vendors are sharing a Flash profile they're creating for you.

Evan
12-02-2010, 12:59 PM
If there was no effective advertising on the internet (ie. every user figured out how to hide all ads and did) would the internet vanish or degrade into something usless? Would this site exist?


The Internet attracted advertising. Advertising did not create the Internet. The Internet without advertising would have nothing left except content. What a concept.

This site also existed long before advertising was presented on these pages. It's primary purpose is to promote awareness of the publications of Village Press. Secondarily it is to promote and encourage the hobby in general and to give a place for those so inclined to meet and discuss machining as well as entirely unrelated topics. It serves those purposes well.

The inclusion of a few ads is to take advantage of a commercial opportunity. It also insures the continued existence of this forum by providing the accounting dept with tangible proof that this is not a pure loss on the balance sheet. While this forum is unlikely to become a profit centre for VP the inclusion of advertising make it possible to quantify the value of operating this forum to the decision makers in VP.

For myself, I am rarely influenced by advertising. That is due in large part because I rarely see any. I don't watch TV and I don't listen to the radio. I don't read the local newspaper unless my wife alerts me to something that I should see. My main exposure to advertising is on the Internet and most of that is either blocked or irrelevant. When I need to buy something I go looking for it.

The security aspect and implications of identifying individuals by their Internet habits is similar to the idea of using voice recognition systems to listen in on your telephone calls and then using that information to develop a personal dossier for you. Worse yet, that dossier will be for sale.

dp
12-02-2010, 01:36 PM
Flash cookies, for sure, are being used to track you, and most cookie cleaners don't remove them.

Try this experiment: filter all your ads, and clean all your cookies. Now go to YouTube, and search for a video on an obscure topic. Watch the video. Then go to Amazon. You'll find a whole bunch of suggested items related to that video.

That's Flash cookies.

If you look at the HTML for a many popular sites, they're downloading Flash cookies even when there's no Flash content on the damn web page. That's because they know it's much harder to delete the Flash cookies, and the vendors are sharing a Flash profile they're creating for you.

There's much more to flash cookies that goes ignored. For example:

http://www.macromedia.com/support/documentation/en/flashplayer/help/settings_manager02.html#118539

What's in your cookie jar? ;)

http://www.macromedia.com/support/documentation/en/flashplayer/help/settings_manager02.html

This is where you tell Flash to get out of your life. You don't want not to visit this page.

How many people know Flash is capable of using your laptop camera and mic to be sure your daughter or wife is behaving herself?

SmoggyTurnip
12-02-2010, 02:12 PM
This site also existed long before advertising was presented on these pages. It's primary purpose is to promote awareness of the publications of Village Press.

That's what I call advertising.

SmoggyTurnip
12-02-2010, 02:28 PM
It also insures the continued existence of this forum by providing the accounting dept with tangible proof that this is not a pure loss on the balance sheet.

So the forum would not exist unless either:

1)VP advertisement alone worked and was obvious ie VP sales increased

or

2)The secondary advertisements worked.

Effective advertising required for this sites existance?

dp
12-02-2010, 02:36 PM
That's what I call advertising.

Advertising isn't a problem. Smart ads are a problem because the technology needed for smart ads is the same technology needed to steal your identity. The defense for identity theft is the same as for blocking adverts. The collateral damage is lost trust, lost privacy, over-kill with defense measures, and a growing adversarial relationship with online providers. I'm ok with all of that so long as I'm winning.

squirrel
12-02-2010, 02:37 PM
The only question I have is why isn't "Wiki leaks" dead? There must be a small crowd of covert agents elbowing each other to try and get at his brake lines.
According to Fox, Sweden is pressing for his arrest on the rape warrent, England does not have the boys to do it and blames it on a small mistake on the arrest warrant. Sounds to me like a good consipiracy theory brewing..... some one is being leveraged by Assange

SmoggyTurnip
12-02-2010, 02:46 PM
Advertising isn't a problem.

If advertising is not a problem and you are willing to accept it in order that we have have more content could it be better if the advertisers understood your character and only subjected you to advertising that is suited to your lifestyle.

Mcgyver
12-02-2010, 03:16 PM
either that or he raped someone and this is most eleborate conspiracy theory defense ever created

squirrel
12-02-2010, 04:02 PM
I hope its manuvering until the USA has enough to charge him with terrorism. It might be easier to extradite him from England than it would be if Sweden has him locked up.

dp
12-02-2010, 04:05 PM
If advertising is not a problem and you are willing to accept it in order that we have have more content could it be better if the advertisers understood your character and only subjected you to advertising that is suited to your lifestyle.

Of course not. That is the problem. I choose not to be profiled and I expect people to accept my decision.

.RC.
12-02-2010, 04:08 PM
It's an unarmed group of Reuters reporters.

If you watch it carefully there are people in the video certainly armed with AK47's and possibly an RPG.. They are visible but wikileaks being all "impartial" does not point it out..

But they still don't give them permission to fire. Then the same Reuters camera man with the telephoto lens rounds the corner, and peeks out,





As 300m away up the street is a US army patrol... Why does he suspiciously poke his head around the corner if there is nothing there?


So we have the situation where in a warzone we have reporters wandering around with armed people a few hundred metres from a US patrol, suspiciously peeking round corners and then complaining when two apaches attack them...

dp
12-02-2010, 04:17 PM
It's an unarmed group of Reuters reporters. Two of the Reuters camera men are carrying telephoto lenses.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/ApacheGunCamera.png

I watched both videos and it is my opinion that the mistakes that led directly to this error happened in the first 60 seconds (including this image) when civilians in an active war zone were carrying equipment and behaving in a manner indistinguishable from hostile forces. Reuters has admitted they needed to review their methods when covering live combat and was one of the reasons they FOI'd the gunsight footage. There's only two kinds of people in the streets when small arms fire is filling the air - good guys and targets. The good guys depends on whose side you are on.

The military has no obligation to hand out such footage if it exposes identities, tactics, or other information useful to the opposing forces. Even after hostilities are ended there is still a need to protect some of that information.

What happened on that day is unfortunate but inevitible. This was a tragic non-event and it will happen again. It's a far cry from saturation bombing of Dresden, Tokyo, etc., but that is part of the larger debate regards fighting war morally. There's no such thing.

lazlo
12-02-2010, 04:43 PM
It's an unarmed group of Reuters reporters.
If you watch it carefully there are people in the video certainly armed with AK47's and possibly an RPG.. They are visible but wikileaks being all "impartial" does not point it out..

The full video is here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25EWUUBjPMo

Show me a single frame where any of the reporters have an AK or an RPG.

Countless military experts have viewed that video, including US military personnel, and it's very clear even to a layman that the gunner incorrectly identified a telephoto lens as an AK, and later an RPG, and proceeded to massacre 10 civilians, including 3 children.

Towards the end of the 38-minute version of the video, the US ground forces open-up the mini-van, and are horrified that there are children inside. While one of the US soldiers runs off cradling a dying child in his arms, the others berate the Apache gunner.

The gunner's response: " "Well it's their fault for bringing kids in to a battle."

But the point is not that it was a tragic mistake -- the point is that the Pentagon tried to cover it up.
After tape was leaked, the White House and the Pentagon formally condemned the shooting, admitting it was a "tragic mistake" and that they would revise the rules of engagement to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

How nice.


As 300m away up the street is a US army patrol... Why does he suspiciously poke his head around the corner if there is nothing there?

Because he's a Reuter's camera man in a war zone, and there are bullets flying everywhere?

PeteF
12-02-2010, 04:57 PM
I'd hardly call the main person behind Wikileaks a "kid", I think he's around 40 years old! It seems to me the issue is not that the incident happened, it was the coverup that was exposed. Is the vehicle for doing so (Wikileaks) good or bad? Well I guess that depends on how much you trust your government ;) I'd suggest "charging him with terrorism" is a bit rich though, I haven't seen too much out of there that has done much other than severely denting a few over-inflated egos and jeopardising military careers

lazlo
12-02-2010, 05:03 PM
I'd hardly call the main person behind Wikileaks a "kid", I think he's around 40 years old!

You're right -- my mistake Peter. He's 40.


It seems to me the issue is not that the incident happened, it was the coverup that was exposed.

Exactly. What's especially amusing is Wikileaks also leaked the ClimateGate emails, and the same people complaining about Assange being involved in "terrorism" were pretty happy with him back then...


Is the vehicle for doing so (Wikileaks) good or bad? Well I guess that depends on how much you trust your government ;)

I didn't trust my government before the WikiLeaks, but I trust them a whole lot less now.

Then again, there's a whole bunch of dirty laundry about just about every industrialized nation: the former UK Labor Minister was a "hound dog", the Italian Prime Minister holds "wild parties" (those are euphemisms -- read the transcripts if you want the ugly details), the Afghanistan Vice President was busted by the DEA and the government of Qatar carrying $50 Million in cash in a drug smuggling operation, ...

oldtiffie
12-02-2010, 05:10 PM
Here is the OP:


There does not seem to be any end to the information on others that people feel entitled to save.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704679204575646704100959546.html?m od=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories

Sorry, should say OT

I can't really see how the OP relates to the current discussion nor can I see how it relates to where the current discussion seems to be heading (to or where-ever what that might be).

PeteF
12-02-2010, 05:18 PM
I can't really see how the OP relates to the current discussion nor can I see how it relates to where the current discussion seems to be heading (to or where-ever what that might be).

Quite right Tiff ... the irony being that the thread I read immediately before this one involved you passionately arguing the merits (or otherwise) of buying a "cheap" Asian lathe versus restoring an older lathe ... on a thread about grinding ways. You may like to securely stow your bag of stones for future casting ;)

Edit: Ooops, sorry, forgot to include the Tiffylink http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=44797&page=22 :P

dp
12-02-2010, 05:21 PM
The full video is here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25EWUUBjPMo

Show me a single frame where any of the reporters have an AK or an RPG.

There is no point in any part of that video where weapons can be clearly identified. That is not uncommon, as it happens. However, the context is deadly if you appear to be carrying weapons.

At 2:11 into that video the people in the left upper quadrant are carrying umbrellas. Or AK-47 rifles. The gunship is half a mile away. It's a bad place to be carrying umbrellas or AK-47s.

The press learned early on that they can't walk around with CNN on their flak jackets because it motivates the crowd. So they don't wear safety equipment and they walk around without clear identification in a hostile zone. That will get you killed and we know this is the truth because they're dead.

The alternative was to remain in escorted groups but that's no way to win a Pulitzer so now they're dead. War is truly hell.

There is also this crazy notion that cameras are never weapons. What would you think of a press photog showing up and transmitting real-time video of a firefight including tactical information that can and will be used against coalition forces? Not everyone with a camera over there is on our side.

oldtiffie
12-02-2010, 05:50 PM
Thanks Pete.

Given my age and stage in life, and in case you hadn't guessed already, my "bag of stones" is not going to do anyone any harm or any good either - me included.

"Throwing stones" elicits visions of "tossing" - and tossers.

dp
12-03-2010, 01:54 AM
This is a sober analysis of the events in the video showing the "red mist" attack on what were presumed to be hostiles. It presents the pragmatic and the seat of the pants decision process that precedes these war zone problems.

http://blog.ajmartinez.com/2010/04/05/wikileaks-collateral-murder/

I tend to disagree with the author regarding the "red misting" (Lazlo's term) of the van. It's a war zone, people are shooting each other, no, there are no on-site obvious hostilities, but then bank robbers probably grab a coffee and sandwich at Denny's without tossing hold-up note on the counter. That doesn't mean they're angels - it just means they're between jobs.

The van could as easily have been full of RPGs or IEDs as kids.

But - later in the video they put rockets into a building on rather light evidence. That building could easily have contained a school, a synagogue (well, maybe not), or a 7-Eleven. Putting a bunch of Hellfire missiles into it was not justifiable based on what I saw. An unwitting pedestrian was strolling by as one Hellfire hit. Anyone's guess how many were inside and what they were doing. But I wasn't there and don't know for a fact if it was justified or not.

That last point is important - who really knows? I looked but did not find any reference to weapons found among the dead after the initial attack. Don't know what was in the SUV. Don't even know if people were carrying umbrellas or AK-47's. That is what makes the video by itself meaningless.

PeteF
12-03-2010, 02:02 AM
Dennis, I think the point is not what happened, it's the BS coverup that grates. If a bank gets robbed and a few customers killed my bet is that the bank doesn't try to deny that a hold-up occurred, that not only were no customers killed, the customers were actually at the bank down the road!

dp
12-03-2010, 03:14 AM
Dennis, I think the point is not what happened, it's the BS coverup that grates. If a bank gets robbed and a few customers killed my bet is that the bank doesn't try to deny that a hold-up occurred, that not only were no customers killed, the customers were actually at the bank down the road!

I haven't yet read any first person coverup stuff so don't know what that is about. I know an FOI was refused but that happens a lot. Was there a court overturn of an FOI rejection?

.RC.
12-03-2010, 03:37 AM
The full video is here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25EWUUBjPMo

Show me a single frame where any of the reporters have an AK or an RPG.



At 0.50 onwards it shows a person swinging an AK47 and another swinging either an AK47 or a RPG.

There is only one reporter there.... And where is his bullet proof vest with the words "Reporter" or "press" on it?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/pic1-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/pic2.jpg

In this case the reporter made the mistake by firstly not wearing anything identifying himself as a reporter and secondly by associating with people carrying weapons..

oldtiffie
12-03-2010, 09:55 PM
I'd hardly call the main person behind Wikileaks a "kid", I think he's around 40 years old! It seems to me the issue is not that the incident happened, it was the coverup that was exposed. Is the vehicle for doing so (Wikileaks) good or bad? Well I guess that depends on how much you trust your government ;) I'd suggest "charging him with terrorism" is a bit rich though, I haven't seen too much out of there that has done much other than severely denting a few over-inflated egos and jeopardising military careers

Pete.

I read my papers this morning, and this article by Laurie Oakes made me think of this post of yours.

Perhaps there has been no crime committed at all if LO is half right - which he usually is.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/wikileaks-founder-julian-assange-on-a-knife-edge/story-e6frfhqf-1225965449505

It seems that "they" are more interested in shutting him down (up?) at any cost and by any means rather than using current (inadequate?) legislation etc.