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nheng
12-12-2003, 10:18 PM
Was at a Brooks pharmacy tonight picking up some kids party stuff with my wife. Found a "Movie Time" popcorn set which included 2 plastic cups, shaped and colored like a movie popcorn box ... cute enough. Looked at the back of the box and the following caught my eye ... almost caused bleeding like Thrud had:

"Popcorn product of China"

We have a problem which is even BIGGER than I thought http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif

I refuse to accept imported food products (unless I want an imported food product) and may never recover from this rant. The producers of this product should be heavily chastised and I will take time out of a busy Monday to do just that.

Den

spope14
12-13-2003, 12:31 AM
I have a great hat, plastic thing, says "Sprit of USA". A 225th "birthday hat" for the US. Kind of a plastic thing looks like a fake Uncle sam hat. The band - red white, and blue, with the "spririt" saying on it. Right below that - in big white letters on the blue "MADE IN CHINA". I keep it around for laughs, sighs, and for reference when I think of where things started to go to hell in manufacturing.

jfsmith
12-13-2003, 01:14 AM
What is made in the states is hard to figure out. Toyotas and Hondas are made in the states, but many of the part for the Amrican big three come from off shore.

Arvin Diamond electrical parts for American brand cars, come from a company in Ohio, but that is their corporate headquaters, everything is licensed out to other companies.

Jerry

jfsmith
12-13-2003, 01:14 AM
Teach your children Chinese, they will need it in the future.

Jerry

Evan
12-13-2003, 03:19 AM
Don't suppose you want to know who makes American flags?

"Shanghai Flag & Tent Works, for example, exported about $1 million worth of merchandise to the United States last year, with American flags accounting for about 80 percent of the total, says Zheng Banglin, general manager for the firm, which claims to control about one-third of the Chinese-made flag market in the US."

ibewgypsie
12-13-2003, 09:08 AM
Getting stress high with high heartbeat cleans out arteries. Unless you stroke on out.

Enough to upset me too, it gets worse each day, each person trying to make a few dollars erodes away our civilization. Like sand from the base of a cliff eroding away a mountain. Someday, the rest of the world will be reduced to a 3rd world country level. Bicycle transportation will be the norm then. Flagrant large homes, autos for each family member, televisions in each room, will all be a thing of the past. Got enough to eat? compared to the rest of the world, you are lucky.

David.

pgmrdan
12-13-2003, 11:29 AM
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[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 03-08-2004).]

JCHannum
12-13-2003, 12:32 PM
When you get right down to it, there is no longer the Big Three. General Motors is still No.1, Toyota (I think, or another rice burner) is No.2, Ford is No.3. Chrysler no longer exists.
The only positive thing that I can see with the German takeover of Chrysler is that it seems to be lowering the quality of Mercedes to Chrysler's level.
There are articles running in the business section of the local paper, The Toledo Blade (Motto; Only the news we want to print), that are an outgrowth of an article in the NY Times about the manufacturer of Etch A Sketch in China. The manufacturer is paying the employees $.10/hr less than minimum wage, which is $.33/hr and working them more than 80 hrs./wk. They regret that they have not paid the proper amount of overtime pay. They are provided with barracks living and food. If they are lucky, they get meat three times a month. Many safety problems. Loss of fingers is one of the more common injuries.
This is a very sorry situation, and is not fair trade or open market competition.
80% of the toys sold in the US are manufactured in China, not to mention how many Christmas trees. Who benefits from Christmas nowadays?

Excitable Boy
12-13-2003, 12:38 PM
Blame Wal-Mart. They might not be thw whole problem, but like gas on a fire, they are an accellerant. The only way they sell everything cheaper is to take it off shore. They are truly an evil company.

John

------------------
Pursue Excellence and the rest will follow.

wierdscience
12-13-2003, 12:48 PM
What do you mean we can't do anything about it?Vote!Just make sure its not one of those NIMBY loving,anti-American,anti-gun,anti-industry,anti-capitalist liberal a--holes!

Be politicaly incorrect on every occasion,you can get away with it and so can I ,after all we're all getting older,and old folks get whatever they want http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Rustybolt
12-13-2003, 12:53 PM
John. They're just giving the consumer what they want. If we didn't have all the labor, environmental, and just plain governmental regulation we'd be much more competitive.
When given a choice I buy anything but China. Instead of a new 4 jaw chuck from the pacific rim, I'll buy a used skinner.
Personally, I'd like to see more east european machine tools offered in this country.

pgmrdan
12-13-2003, 02:19 PM
.

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 03-08-2004).]

nheng
12-13-2003, 03:45 PM
Ok guys, I can deal with chucks, wrenches, barbie, barney, etc. but this is from the ground ... CORN !
Den

BC21OSH
12-13-2003, 04:10 PM
OK, so I went to the grocery store the other day and picked up a head of garlic and yep sure enough, it was labeled Product of China. I'm used to seeing onions and garlic out here in the midwest from Mexico, but China?

Another grocery reality, Asparagus; the United States can no longer compete in this market either, China and Peru are taking it over as well.

Bernard

moldmonkey
12-13-2003, 06:33 PM
Nothing new there. My father and brother are ranchers. For years Australian, Canadian, Brazilian, etc. beef has been imported. McDonalds is notorious for using imported beef. My Dad was telling me the packers are getting around the current ban on Canadian beef by bringing in carcasses not live animals. Not sure how that is legal. For the record, beef is not subsidized (sp).

Jon

nheng
12-13-2003, 06:57 PM
Jon: You're scaring me. What are the simptms of mmmd caow disese?

Had to edit this. It is a serious topic. I have a 17.5 yr old son who doesn't recognize the danger of manufacturing and tech jobs disappearing (and corn coming from China) ... and dad is an engineer. I'm working on some serious re-educating of junior right now.

I guess in the future if we want American grain, we'll have to stand on a bread line in the former Soviet Union.

Den

[This message has been edited by nheng (edited 12-13-2003).]

jfsmith
12-13-2003, 09:48 PM
We who make things by hand, should be proud enough to say that our work is made in the States or in Canada.

If you want stuff from Europe, you'll get the Polish stuff like Bison. Which isn't all that good.

How much are you willing to pay for a set of 1-2-3 blocks, Chinese and Polish ones are like $10. How much would a set be if Uncle Thrud made them?

I need some stuff made for a machine I want and my shop doesn't have the capacity to work on that size of stuff. I am getting bigger and nicer machines, but this would tie me up for 3 weeks to make when the new machines arrives. Three places don't even one to bid on making this machine for me or even doing the basic parts, they said that it would cost too much for them to stop doing other things to make this. Two places wanted money for the time to give an estimate on making it. Many places just won't even consider doing the work, unless I want to make a bunch of them, I only need one. They could have the plans and market them on their own, but that hasn't even sunk into their heads, that they could be open a new market for themselves.

Gee whiz, what happen to America?

Jerry

Rich Carlstedt
12-13-2003, 10:31 PM
Ok Guys, Time to put up or shut up !
You Vote in this issue with your WALLET

I buy American made shoes (Wisconsin)
I buy American made Pick up truck (St Louis)
I buy American made Flags (Pennsylvania)
I buy American made Starritt products (N.E. USA)
I buy American when ever I can
I do not buy Chinese

I use Saudi Oil, Because some jerks (that do not understand economics and OUR Security !), make American oil unobtainable.
I can only buy Old American machines, because these same jerks put the foundries out of business.
We do not have a free labor market in this country..that is why we are using foreign products.
The "successful" foreign cars made here in the USA are in free market states
Very interesting to see that a guy who reads X-rays gets 300,000 a year..guess what, the hospitals are now emailing the work overseas to a technitian who makes 35,000...get the message !

JCHannum
12-13-2003, 11:28 PM
Rich;
Your sentiments are well founded but;
Those American made shoes quite likely are manufactured somewhere else for an American brand name. Wolverine for instance are offshore. Not Red Wing yet, I don't think.
That American made auto is assembled from many components made in Mexico, Canada and many other places. Many of the high tech electronic components are Asian.
Flags, I don't know about, but it is probably very difficult to find those that are made in USA, and I would doubt that even those are completely American made. I would not be surprised to find that the grommets for instance are offshore.
Starrett is now having several of their tools manufactured in China. Dial indicators and dial calipers, and some others as I recall.
I too buy American whenever possible. It is impossible not to buy Chinese something at this point, as the American manufacturer is gone. Most small appliances, toys and many electronic products are simply no longer manufactured in the USA.

jfsmith
12-14-2003, 12:28 AM
There is a company called Arvin Diamond, it's address is Coonpath Road, Lancaster Ohio. For decades they have supplied products to the automotive industry, the video industry and several others.

If you go to the address you will find a sales office of one person, a finacial person and the executive incharge of the company. All other products are licensed out to different manufactures over seas, and have been for a long time. The research and the patents are American, but the products are made else where. My Dodge back in the early 70s, which had all MoPar parts and American brands, most were made somewhere else than North America. My last Ford pickup truck (which I wish I still had) was made in Canada with parts from all over the world, and ran well beyond 180,000 miles. I bought a Ford Aerostar in 1988, it spent more time with the dealer being fixed under warranty than with me. It was proudly made in St. Louis. The last 5 Toyotas that I purchased ran well the whole time I had them, they came from factories in the states.

If you want a high quality American built automobile, that will last forever buy a Humm V (not the Humm 2), talk about sticker shock, the wagon version lists for $117,000US.

The American work ethic for things is how little do you have to spend and how high a price can I sell it for. One businessman keeps saying it's not what you sell it for, it's how much you buy it for at his company.

A friend of mine owns a clothing retail store, he sells to me at cost, which is 20% of the tags price. Most of his stuff is Pacific Rim in origin and do last. What happen to getting jeans made in North Carolina for $20 a pair?


People are willing to put up with moderate quality or short usage time and then you throw it away.

Are you willing to give up the American way of life, to live much poorer, but have things that last until your grandchildren grownup? My grand parents were not wealthy, they made modest incomes and I still have many of the things that they bought new. My bed was handmade for my great grand parents, I had a custom size mattress and box springs made for it. But it has a regal quality to it, that some wood crafts person, took his time to make it right and was very proud of his work.

Where is this pride today?

Jerry

Arcane
12-14-2003, 01:21 AM
Rustybolt...
If we didn't have all the labor, environmental, and plain governmental regulations.....I suspect we would probably be just like the Republic of China.
I believe part of the problem is the idea people have that they should make a huge income from "investments". I agree that money invested in a company should give you a return but I think expecting double digit figures is bull****. THAT is just plain greed. I work in what would be considered a "service industry", I am one of the people who keep the power flowing to your shops and homes. Necessary, but it still doesn`t produce anything in and of itself. I believe true wealth comes from producing something tangible and useful..not from some dot.com company being "worth" millions overnight because of the stock enchanges and not from the production of throw-away crap that we didn't need in the first place and that we wouldn't have missed if we had never had it. Is it my imagination or is there a trend towards more people being able to only use the things they buy and not being able to fix items when they break down, even when it is possible to fix them? Seems like more and more stuff just can't be fixed anyways. And yes, Walmart is a very, very evil company....

BillH
12-14-2003, 01:49 AM
Threat to the heartland is increase cost of living.

Unions demand a bigger piece of the pie, cost of manufacture goes up, Company is forced to go over sea's. The union guys need the money to survive.
High Taxes, cost of living is ruining this country. Industry was traditionally cheap labor, low paying wages, but one could live off of it. Not anymore in this day and age.
People with college degrees were the ones that got payed the big bucks, now Union workers often get payed as much as college graduates.
Cost of living goes down, so the cost of manufacture goes down. Thats the only way, otherwise this country is going to replace manufacturing with Service Industry.

Car mechanics I hear have it mighty good now.

andy_b
12-14-2003, 09:40 AM
here's a link to a list of some US-made merchandise (sometimes they get a little crazy with pop-up windows):

http://www.usstuff.com/prodlist.htm

the footwear topic interested me. my 9-year-old Red Wing boots are "Made in the USA". at $149 for steel-toe insulated, they weren't a bad price (i don't know the price for the same thing today). if you really want to spend some bucks for footwear, check out these guys (US-made, of course):

http://www.whitesoutdoor.com/boots_sub.php?request=category&p_id=White%27s+Boots

and my current everyday footwear is a pair of handmade ankle-height shoes made by Tom Mattimore at Mattimore Harness. he specializes in Civil War footwear, but as he put it "we ARE a REAL footwear manufacturer".
:-)

i have the CS Oxfords (bottom of the page). he put a Vibram sole on them (not Civil War correct of course), but dang are they comfortable.

http://www.civilwarboots.com/shop/index.html?target=Boots.html

sure, none of this stuff has "air-anything" in the name, and you won't find them for $15 at pay-less, but if my $100 pair of Tom Mattimore shoes last as long as my $149 pair of Red Wings, i think averaging out to $10 per year is a worthwhile investment. i guess the younger folks today can't relate to that since they quit teaching them math.

just thought the footwear thing was interesting.

andy b.

wierdscience
12-14-2003, 12:41 PM
Well your right I did forget one other thing you can do about it,make it here yourself!

Ever read some of the history articles on the machine achieve?Most of those comapnies started as small one or two man shops in the back of somebodies barn or garage.

We can not forget that we are capable of making our own new industry,so long as Hillary doesn't get elected,like she said when asked what about small business and what they do if her health care plan would be passed into law,her response was"I can't be responsible for every under capitalised small business out there"-in other words let them eat cake!

farmwrench
12-14-2003, 12:52 PM
New York has lost most all of our apple growers due to juice from China shipped and delivered with a nondeposit container for less than our guys can pick the fruit much less get the apples juiced for.

My father is on the NAFTA board as a grower rep. for potatoes (The suits made the deals and we are to try to straighten the details out.) Canadian potatoes are just eating us alive. I fielded a lot of calls fron NY growers letting my dad know the acers they left in the ground before the November meeting. They get 1/2 the trucking paid for once the load crosses the boarder. Property tax is repaid to the grower if they farm another year. Ag cemicals are about the same as prescription drugs as far as the border is concered. Quebec gets an income insurance program that kicks in once the product price drops below the cost of production, the program is structured so that they can profit MORE from the ins. than the market will ever let them... So they dump spuds and let the gov pay. I think you will have a real wake up call as more products get with the COOL (country of origin lableing) rules.

Farm mags were figureing about a $1million savings per shipload of soy from south america vs home grown by the time it got to the big livestock feeding operations.

In the last five years at least one large farm operation sold at auction in preperation to relocate to the southern hemi per year.

Rich Carlstedt
12-15-2003, 01:29 AM
JC
My shoes have an American flag in both tongues, a union Label and say "Made in America"! and "real leather"
The sole says "Polyped"...."Made in America".
I think it is a division of Wolverine shoes ??

I have found American Made Flags at Sears,
"The Fly Me Flag Company" and Fleet Farm stores. Also at a Ace hardware
The "problem" is I paid 20 bucks, where most supporters of foriegn goods pay 8 for a Chinese replica
Check out
http://crs-enterprises.com/flag.htm

The Starritt stuff I have says" Made in USA"
I won't argue over the ferrules, as I don't know, and it evades the real issue in my opinion. Just as the other posts, say"parts are made for autos in Canada " etc etc ,to me, its an excuse to not buy the product made here in the USA.
I don't play head games, particularly with myself.

I would like to address our Farm and manufacturing problems if I may:
I think that "Economics" is one of the least understood aspects of education....and a lot of what we say here has to do with economics..but I will keep it simple.
Everyone wants "stuff" as cheap as possible.
THIS is human nature......
"Cheap" is only possible though :
1.control of raw material and energy costs
2.control of labor costs
3.control of taxes
4.control of tranportation costs
5.improved production efficencies

To see how this applies, think of just two things:
Englands industrial rule of the world in 1800
Farms and milk production.

England "lost" their leadership in the world to the USA around the time of the Civil War..
Why ????
Its the same problem...no its the Identical situation "WE" now face with China.
England lost, because we could beat them in all 5 cases. We had the iron ore and coal,
taxes were cheap, labor was cheap,transportation was cheaper AND the Americans figured out ways to do it faster...ie.more productivity !

Compare this to China...
1. they have a lot of raw matrials, but still import our scrap steel
2. dirt cheap labor
3.lower taxes ( industry pays 75 % of American rates)and no health care costs
4. Higher transport costs.
5. Productivity getting better each day...Did You know that China has LOST 10 million jobs in the last 3 years ? (improved production rates)

So how do we not become another Great Britain.
Lower 1 thru 4 as much as possible and kick heck out of #5..we can do it, but will we ?
When we look at the machine shop trade, we all lament about the "loss of jobs"....BUT a lot of that is from CNC machinery..my lands, a CNC center outproduces a manual machine by 5 fold, so we can expect to see some changes here.....the problem is that China sees it too ! thats why they have also lost jobs but pose a threat..still.

Now to see what the "Farm scene" has look at the 5 issues above and compare it to Farming.
The USA led the world in farm output for most of the past century, but farm prices are going up when all else comes down.
Think about it, Farmers want price supports and guarantees, but people want cheaper product. You can't have both.
look at the 5 items above and you will see that the rest of the world is matching our productivity and we pay farmers to NOT grow some crops...make sense ? of course not.
Farmers want to "keep " prices, but buyers are looking for lower prices. Does this mean the end of farms? probably , unless they can pool their resources and lower their prices.
I know my brother-in-law wouldn't do it, and I suspect our farmers are equally independent!
thats why Corporate farming is growing..cheaper prices and better yields
Just as the auto industry charged 3,000 bucks in 1900 for a car ,Henry Ford made one for 350, and people went mad for the ford car.

The future for America lies in our technowlogy, wither its computers, or medical and drugs, areas we still lead the world in.
Number 5 is our only savior since I doubt we can do much with 1 to 4

A few notes
We have the cleanest air of any industrial nation and we have the highest costs in the world for polution control
We pay the highest legal (Tort) cost in the world..thank you lawyers...and by the way we have the most lawyers Too.("our cost" is $809 per US citizen per year)
Only Japan has higher taxes then us on industry.
Forth highest Employee benefit costs of all industrial nations.

All of the above places a 22.4 % added cost on American goods versus our competion

The statistics above from
Investors Business Daily Newspaper
Monday Dec 15,2003 page A 20
Check it out !

BillH
12-15-2003, 01:55 AM
FarmWrench, we have a cabin up by Skaneateles. WE used to go to the local apple Orchard, Ackles Apples. Husband and wife ran it, all the way into their 90's. The best Apple cider I ever had. Was sad, when his wife died, he went into seclusion. Strangely all the apple tree's died at the same time. Nothing but memmories now, and a few apple tree's.

BC21OSH
12-15-2003, 03:45 AM
The apple market is something I don't quite understand. Some years ago, about 1998, I lived just across the border from Milton Freewater Oregon. They grow a lot of apples in the area. At that time the farmers were either letting the apples rot on the trees or selling them for twenty dollars a ton as cattle feed. The Chinese had flooded the market with apple concentrate so cheap that the farmers here couldn't compete, however, the grocery stores had fresh apples for sale from such places as Australia and elsewhere for about a dollar a pound.

Bernard

[This message has been edited by BC21OSH (edited 12-15-2003).]

BC21OSH
12-15-2003, 03:53 AM
I buy SAS shoes made here in the good old USA. They are well made and really comfortable. Last pair I bought was $110 but well worth it. One pair I have had for about ten years now and wear to work.

Bernard

wierdscience
12-15-2003, 10:12 PM
Same thing down here with seafood,shrimp,oysters,crabs you name it lots of stuff coming in from China.

If you see boiled shrimp anywhere and they have black legs its because they where blast frozen somewhere in China or Vietnam

bspooh
12-16-2003, 12:31 AM
Sometimes you have to buy stuff made in china...Thats the only place some stuff is made in...Its unfortunate, but its the way of life..I am a manufacture, and proud to say my products are made with USA labor..but, some of my machining tools are made elsewhere..like the inserts for Iscar...or that 2" diameter HSS drill for $65.00..what a bargain...I do my best in buying "made in USA", but its not practical all of the time for myself...

brent

Evan
12-16-2003, 03:54 AM
How can we compete when I can buy this for $7.00 US last weekend? Made in Taiwan. $7.00!!!. how is it possible to retail this so cheap? The normal rule is that the cost of manufacturing is around 25% of the retail price. ??????

I don't even really need it but for $7 I couldn't pass it up.

http://vts.bc.ca/img/air1.jpg

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 12-16-2003).]

JCHannum
12-16-2003, 11:11 AM
If you didn't need it why did you buy it? That is part of what they count on. When it fails, you will be much less likely to complain, and more junk has been unloaded on us.
My experience with most of this sort of thing is that most of the pieces will fail short order. The QC air fitting, blow gun and inflation chuck will leak, the pressure gage will crap out after a couple of uses. That will leave you with a couple of QC nipples and maybe some other things you probably won't use.
You will say, "Oh well, I only spent $7.00 any how, so I'm not out much, and I still have the......"
Cheap materials and poor quality are part of the reason they can sell so cheaply.
Other reasons are the semi-skilled labor that may cost $10-$15/hr here costs $0.50/hr or less there, and that same $10-$15 here costs another 50%-100% more for fringes, while the $.50 is out the door. Add the other costs mentioned above imposed for whatever reason, pollution, insurance, property costs, taxes and so on and the gap gets wider.
One thing you can bet is that the CEO of Campbell Hausfeld will eat tonight, and pretty well. The stockholders and ex employees may not do as well, as "increased competition and necessary reductions in profit margins have reduced income and necessitated reduction in the labor force".

tonydacrow
12-16-2003, 12:11 PM
Guys,

Much as I sympathize, economics obey certain immutable laws that can't be repealed by government fiat. It's like water. It will always find its own level. A free consumer will always engage in a cost/benefit/utility analysis; and freedom is a good thing, right? Does anyone really want to compel consumers at the point of a gun? (Look to the former Soviet Union to see what eventually happens when those laws are enforced.)

If an air tool cost $7 and breaks after 1000 uses, a $70 dollar tool will have to be used 10,000 times before it begins to be cost effective. (I say "begins" because there is also a time value to money that has to be taken into account.) Most homeowners who want air tools will not use them 10,000 times so the $7 tool is cost effective. We can extol the virtues of $70 US tools all day long, but in the end, the customer makes the choice. Business owners will still buy the $70 tool because they may use them 20,000 or 30,000 times in a year; but it’s only because it makes financial sense. This kind of stuff is inevitable. Governments since the Roman Empire have tried to avoid these laws and it always leads to the same disastrous results. Yes, there are short-term dislocations that occur due to free trade. It happened during the rise of the Greek City/States, it happened during the industrial revolution and it is happening now. Eventually, however, increased market efficiencies will provide benefits to both sides.

Think of the following as an example: Assume Mexican farmers can grow tomatoes for $.20 a pound and US farmers can produce them for $1.00 a pound. Next, assume that Mexican machine shops can produce widgets to a certain tolerance for $1,000 whereas US shops can produce them for $500 due to the increased efficiencies of CNC and highly skilled labor. The US Machine shop can sell two widgets to US farmers and obtain 1,000 lbs. of US tomatoes. The Mexican machine shop can sell just one widget and get 5,000 lbs. of Mexican tomatoes.

Without free trade, the Mexican farmer gets 1/2 as many widgets but has to give 5 times as many tomatoes whereas the US farmer gets 2 times as many widgets for 5 times fewer tomatoes. If we allow free trade, the Mexican farmer can sell those same 5,000 lbs. of tomatoes to a US machine shop for 2 widgets. The US machine shop owner gets 5 times as many tomatoes and the Mexican farmer gets 2 times as many widgets.

Obviously, there’s a problem for the US farmer and Mexican machine shop: they either go out of business or discover how to compete by increasing efficiencies so that each may produce more for less. And guess what? That’s exactly what happens! This is why the standard of living has been steadily rising from the beginning of the world until today. Increased trade results in increased economic efficiencies that result in increased goods and services for ever-less effort. Yes, it causes disruption which changes our lives. We have to constantly learn new skills just to compete; but, do you really want to try Soviet style economics, instead?

Evan
12-16-2003, 01:15 PM
When I say I don't really need it that is because I already have all the air tools and fittings necessary. But, some are rather old and do leak. I'm afraid the quality of the parts in that accessory kit is first rate and they don't leak. I have been using some of the same parts such as the blow gun for some time now in the shop with my little compressor with the 2 gallon tank that I use to blow chips out of blind holes etc. It will still have air in it two days since last run with that blow gun and QC fitting on it.

I don't understand how those parts can be manufactured and finished, packaged and transported, displayed and sold for that price. I can't get a single piece of metal the size of the blow gun chromed for $7.00.

Greg Parent
12-16-2003, 01:24 PM
Don't support a system that pays its workers a dollar a day. It is false economy of the worst kind. By supporting this type of economy you breed desparation and hopelessness.
Forget religious beliefs, poverty is THE cause of terrorism.

Evan
12-16-2003, 01:35 PM
Greg,

Have a look inside your computer and see where the parts were made. If you really want to do as you say you will have to forego owning a computer or any other electronic device such as car, microwave etc.

Greg Parent
12-16-2003, 02:17 PM
Evan,
Good point, but as a consumer of the products you mention (computer, automobile, etc)do we have a choice?

When I have a choice I buy from a producer who shares my belief.

Coffee is a good example. I buy my coffee from a company who does not leave the farmer in desparate subsistance living conditions.

As a consumer its about making the right choice when you have the option to do so.

Greg

jfsmith
12-16-2003, 03:10 PM
We all want something for the cheapest price we can find. VCRs were never really made in the states, DVD players aren't made in the states. The technology was developed in the states. How many TVs are made in the U.S.??? If your $200 20" TV dies, you throw it away, instead of getting it fixed, because it cheaper.

This the way we do technology and with jobs. When it breaks or is used up, we throw it away.


Jerry

BC21OSH
12-16-2003, 04:10 PM
On CNN today they announced that the SAS shoe company in Pittsfield Maine is giving each of their employees a Christmas bonus of $1000 for each year of service. Some employees will be getting a $20,000 check.

They can do this and still compete in the shoe market in America. Maybe it has sonmething to do with the integrity of the companie's CEO and not the pressures of a competetive market.

I read the other day in USA today that the average wage of a manufacturing employee in the US is $16, while the average wage in China is $0.61.

Bernard

jfsmith
12-16-2003, 06:05 PM
How many of us in the baby boomer generation remember the Honeywell Pentax cameras? A real American made camera, NOT! Or the Roberts Reel to Reel tape machine???

Most of those cheap and unreliable early small American brand cars were made off shore. Mine had a seizure and died 8 months after I bought it, it was a Chrysler brand car.

I have a set of Craftsman tools that my father bought, it was a 1/2 inch drive set, made in the U.S., it isn't flashy or have a vacuum molded case. Never had to take any of it back for replacement, unlike the new ones I have purchased.

I buy American and Canadian made stuff, but most things are made off shore. The U.S. Army's Black Beret's (stolen from the Rangers) are made in China.

A while ago some stuff came in to the country that said "Made in USA", there is a village whose name is Usa in the Orient. Great trick.

In the 50s, stuff made in Japan meant junk, today the junk comes from China and India.

What happen to the quality product that we bought lots of, called Volkswagon? With a simple set of tools and a book called "How to keep your Volkswagon alive and well for the complete idiot" you could actually fix your car. I used to dangle my feet between the bif block engine and the inner fender of my '66 Impala when working on it. Now I can't get my hand inside most places on current cars.

Please don't give me that clean environment crap and lessons in world economics, If we just used our heads, we wouldn't need to worry about those things.

Any one remember the Chrysler Turbine Car? Ran on corn squeezings or Channel Number 5, if it was liquid and would ignite, it would use it. Where is that technology today? It actually had better emmisions that any of the piston engines.

Thats my 2 cents for the moment.

Jerry

Evan
12-16-2003, 06:21 PM
Jerry,

The major car manufacturers are driving gas turbine/electric vehicles as we speak. It overcomes the big limitation of the pure turbine car, the spool up lag of a turbine. It sure did sound cool though, I saw one once. The old Chrysler turbine was pretty undrivable because of the several seconds lag as the rpms built up. With a turbine electric it all changes as you have a few batteries or ultra capacitors to provide instant power. Coming soon to a car dealer near you. Made in Asia.

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 12-16-2003).]

wierdscience
12-16-2003, 09:54 PM
Something thats lost in all this is our own government.

Overseas many times the government incourages industry and small enterprise,not so here.

Overseas workers make less,but it goes further because of a lack of taxes(we average .60 on the dollar once its all added up)whats the guy in China paying?Less than we!

Things will and do change,just look at Hong Kong,total slum 50 years ago now look,even with the Communists in charge its still easier to go in business there than it is here.John Stossil did it in 1:15 flat.

The workers will not work forever for what they are making now,wages will increase over time right along with taxes just like they did here.

Conditions will improve just like they did here.

Its funny that in China,under a communist government you can get all the finacial aid you want to set up shop,not here.

Used to you could setup shop,hang your sign out and you lived or died by your service or product,it was that simple,but no longer,it was shown recently that to do it right in this country in the average city with all forms and permits it costs on average $24,000 just for permits and licesense fees.

I haven't added up all the crap at work yet this year,but last year inventory,property,business and personal property tax amounted to $28,000 so waht that means is the first two months of every year are spent working for free just to pay the taxes to stay in business thats not including uncle sam or the state of Mississippi.And the best part,with the exception of sales tax Wal-Mart is totally exempt! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//mad.gif

This used to be a capitalist open market society now we are socialist to the core,according to recent figures from the GAO 40% of the land mass of the United States is owned by either the state or federal government also they consume 43%of the GDP every year,where did we go wrong?



[This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 12-16-2003).]