PDA

View Full Version : Enco and QC



JRouche
12-07-2010, 02:35 AM
They are loosing money. On my last purchase anyway. Saw the free shipping and 15% sale so decided to get some of their ground angle blocks.

Dont. The finish is terrible. Looks like a 20 grit wheel was used. And its square, I checked it on the granite with a cylindrical square just as a prelim check. It is cut square. I havent done any real measurements though. I dont see the need. The surface finish is pretty rough. Ill prolly just use them for setup angles on the mill after I put some holes in them.

But where they lost money was with the adjustable angle plate I bought. I was unhappy to see the made in India sticker first off. But ALL the rust is what was the deal breaker.

Yup, the manufacture sent it out on the long boat trip with not enough lube goop and wrapped in a plastic sheet. Plastic sheet wrapped metal going through all the temperature changes and prolly a high humidity factory made for a nice lil rust factory.

Where enco screwed up is not checking the 40lbs of steel before shipping it to me free shipping.

I will usually pay UPS a buck a pound for heavy dense items, thats the going rate for small customers. So that would be about 40 bucks to ship. Say enco gets a high volume discount and only has to pay 30 or even 25 bucks. Lets say they get a deep discount and only pay 50%, so that would be 20 bucks to ship to me the first time.

Problem is I am returning it. So they pay another 20 bucks to get the rusted part back and they still have to ship a good one out to me (free shipping). So if they have REALLY good UPS shipping they are out 60 bucks in shipping for a 56 dollar part. And the 56 bucks is deeply discounted. Its normally just under 200 bucks. But it was in the flyer for less then the additional 15% off of that, thats why it was only 56 bucks.

And really, they prolly only paid 20 or 40 bucks for the part. But they are already in the hole for shipping at this point.

I hated seeing that made in India sticker. They are on the bottom rung these days for metal products. But really, the metalwork is getting better with them. Not so many voids and trash in the castings like I have seen.

Kinda like a progression of the countries. Used to be way back when that Japan (great stuff now) had the crappy imports, then that went to Taiwan, (decent stuff now) then China (getting on board), now India (still working on it). Watch. You will see made in the Philippines next for machine tooling. And Europe has the progression of tooling also. Just not as fast moving as Asia and the surrounding areas.

But man, either way, enco lost money on this sale. Real money for shipping. Bet they will open the boxes more often. The woman (great woman) even said she will have them open the package to make sure its ok.

Anyway, just a story. I still buy as much as I can from them. Specially when the free shipping and 15% off deals are combined and its in the sales flyer, and I need it.

And they do hold true to satisfying the customer. I could have sent the angle blocks back on their dime. But I might use them and its a lesson learned for me. Ill eat that one. They werent that much. JR

macona
12-07-2010, 02:49 AM
Im betting Enco will just tell you to keep it.

oldtiffie
12-07-2010, 02:59 AM
Why not buy it from Shars?
http://www.shars.com/product_categories/search/?search=angle%20plate&&page=3

Or Mcmaster-Carr etc?

Or better yet, buy it direct from China or India?

Forrest Addy
12-07-2010, 06:54 AM
JTRouche' experience is all too common. Giveen my experience with imported Asian stuff, I'd shrug and scrape. I'd have figured I'd have to doctor up anything from an importer from the get go. I've bought a lot of stuff from importers over the years and while the price was low compared to stuff from a "quality" upplier I figure the time I spent in re-working it as part of the game. Regardless I made out like a bandit for the price, the savings paying for my time at shop rates and then some.

If the hypothetical purchaser buys consumer grade import machine shop equipment expecting consistantly high quality he's deluded. For the money spemt on import shop equpment you frequently buy what amounts to a kit of assembled parts that have to be dismantled, fitted and adjusted, then re-assembled and tested. Sad but them are the de-facto rules.

It's a Murphy's Law thing. Anything you buy hoping to put it to work immediately on receipt is bound to be a dud needing hours of work to make it right.

I hear you about the progression Japan, Taiwan, China etc. Sooner or later we'll get to Nigeria or Chad.

lazlo
12-07-2010, 11:23 AM
But where they lost money was with the adjustable angle plate I bought. I was unhappy to see the made in India sticker first off. But ALL the rust is what was the deal breaker.

Yup, the manufacture sent it out on the long boat trip with not enough lube goop and wrapped in a plastic sheet. Plastic sheet wrapped metal going through all the temperature changes and prolly a high humidity factory made for a nice lil rust factory.

But man, either way, enco lost money on this sale. Real money for shipping. Bet they will open the boxes more often.
The woman (great woman) even said she will have them open the package to make sure its ok.

No, they won't.

I posted this back in 2007:

Send it back?
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=24049

I went through three tilting angle tables. Each was worse than the previous. And no, they wouldn't let me keep it (I didn't ask, either).

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/img_0001.jpg

gnm109
12-07-2010, 11:47 AM
Enco is good for some things. On the other hand, there are irregularities from time to time. Best to just call them and get a return authorization. They won't care at all.

They are doing such a large volume that a few returns are part of the cost of doing business. A few disgruntled customers won't hurt their bottom line one iota.

I could tell you some Enco stories but you all probably know how they go. When you buy Asian items, you have to be prepared for some flaws. Otherwise, just buy top quality American items all of the time....ahh, where would that be?

lazlo
12-07-2010, 11:57 AM
Enco is good for some things. On the other hand, there are irregularities from time to time. Best to just call them and get a return authorization. They won't care at all.

For the record, I wasn't complaining about Enco, just pointing out that they don't seem to care at all about returning items.

Although, the first thing Enco does is try to file an insurance claim against UPS. They did that with that rusty angle table I posted -- the customer service lady tells me to hold while she files a UPS claim.

I said "Wait, this was in a sealed package -- this isn't UPS's fault!" The Enco woman chuckled, and said, "Oh, it's OK." :rolleyes:

JRouche
12-07-2010, 12:15 PM
JTRouche' experience is all too common. Giveen my experience with imported Asian stuff, I'd shrug and scrape.

Yup.. That was my first thought when I saw the angle plates. They look to be perfect candidates for a good ol fashioned scraping.

But.... That's one craft I don't think I'll ever get to try out. I'm no good with ANYTHING freehand.

Pencil and pen, chisel and mallet or knife and fork, much less a metal scraper. JR

Pherdie
12-07-2010, 12:20 PM
I hated seeing that made in India sticker.

Ditto! The minute I spy that on a newly received purchase, I figure I threw my money away.

Unfortunately, it appears no vendors want to proudly display the "Made in India" logo next to their pictured products, thus allowing you to 'opt out'.

Fred

Tim The Grim
12-07-2010, 12:31 PM
This is nothing new. I bought one of these back in '98 from ENCO with exactly the same type of rust as LAZLO's but in more places and the Made in India sticker. It was wrapped in that smelly wax paper that really didn't protect it.

Who knows maybe they've all been sitting in a damp warehouse since Hector was a pup.

Anyway , I kept mine, used it once for a non precision part and put it away. I even moved it from NJ to TX with me but it would take a while to find it if I wanted too.

Generally I have had very good luck with ENCO and will continue to buy from them. I got some pink surface grinding wheels from them that are outstanding and my 12 x 18 surface plate with free shipping was also very pleasing.

I also have no complaints about Shars or CDCO.
Maybe I'm just lucky

J Tiers
12-08-2010, 12:52 AM
THEY are paying for return shipping? How did you DO that?

They made ME pay to ship back bad goods...... THEY didn't pay a nickel, and I paid to ship them TO me also. So I was on the hook for ALL the shipping, despite THEIR product being crappy.

Amigo
12-08-2010, 02:07 AM
The stuff coming out of India seems to be worse than any of the post war goods that ever came out of far East Asia.
Having spent a couple weeks on a couple consulting jobs in India a few years ago I was able to observe first hand their "manufacturing" processes. In a word.....Crude. The more moving parts in a product, the worse it gets. Example: Parts that should be heat treated are, in a rather unique way. Held with bamboo tongs over a dung fire till smoked tinged and then dipped in used oil of dubious origin. I could go on for hours, much of which I wouldn't not have believed if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes. Then, in the bigger cities like New Delhi, there are the beggers the freaks and the stench......no way am I ever going back. BTW, "New" Delhi was designed for 1/2 million people - 14 million live there, 28 time more than the design. Yes, that 14 million people and then another 1/2 million cattle wandering loose, yes as in free roaming loose - everywhere - streets, alleys, thorough fares, highways. If 4 hooves can stand on it and there is not a cow on it now, just wait a few and there will be.
Damndest sight I ever saw was a filthy turbaned guy driving a wood wheeled single axle cart being pulled by a camel while talking on a cell phone ..... amazing!

Tim T G, that was a heck of a deal last May on Enco 12 x 18" grade A surface plates.... $37 & free shipping. Bought only 1 and had buyers remorse for not buying a dozen. LOL Could have sold them all and made a buck or two.
The problem with ordering the 18 x 24" when on sale with Free Shipping is that the ship weight is about 252lbs. and is "truck" shipment only. The driver is not obligated to help you so a guy is between a rock and a hard spot if alone with no lift equipment, when the truck arrives.

lakeside53
12-08-2010, 02:09 AM
I wanted to send back some junk India tooling.. Enco told me to keep them, and credited my credit card for the tools and shipping.

Amigo
12-08-2010, 02:26 AM
Forgot to mention something else about Enco. The SPI brand calipers they sell at 2x to 3x the price, would be identical to the "import" brand calipers, if it weren't for the "SPI" label. Had a chance to examine them side by side under high magnification.

gnm109
12-08-2010, 12:36 PM
Forgot to mention something else about Enco. The SPI brand calipers they sell at 2x to 3x the price, would be identical to the "import" brand calipers, if it weren't for the "SPI" label. Had a chance to examine them side by side under high magnification.


Quite right. Apparently they are all made in the same alley in Singapore or Hong Kong.

tlfamm
12-08-2010, 02:07 PM
I generally find Indian-made goods to be of unacceptable quality - and routinely send them back to the retailer. HSM-related products from that source are often coated with a distinctive-smelling petroleum product. One whiff, and I know that a return is likely in the offing. I've sent back about 75% of such products from Enco - pure laziness (and low-dollar amount) kept the figure below 100%.

To be fair: I have received a few acceptable Indian-manufactured items from Grizzly, but basically, I won't knowingly purchase Indian goods. If Enco provided the country of origin for their products, I doubt many from India could be sold.

------------------------

My biggest Enco disappointment: a set of spring-calipers sold with the "General" label - I bought them to expand a set I purchased decades ago, and which were quite nice. General Hardware has obviously outsourced some of their production to India (marked so on the packaging), and the new items were inferior in fit and finish. I didn't even pull them out of the clear-plastic pouches: back to Enco they went.

I called General to confirm that someone hadn't stolen the company's trademark. Nope: General has created a separate entity, "General Hardware, Ltd." to peddle off-shore goods.


Caveat emptor ...

Rosco-P
12-08-2010, 02:39 PM
A new low for Enco, Indian made items. I've also noticed that the replacement policy isn't as flexible as it used to be. If something was damaged (UPS or Enco packaging problem), they used to tell you to keep or discard it, your choice and ship you a replacement. They don't seem to be as trusting anymore.

bob ward
12-08-2010, 08:54 PM
The stuff coming out of India seems to be worse than any of the post war goods that ever came out of far East Asia.
Having spent a couple weeks on a couple consulting jobs in India a few years ago I was able to observe first hand their "manufacturing" processes. In a word.....Crude. The more moving parts in a product, the worse it gets. Example: Parts that should be heat treated are, in a rather unique way. Held with bamboo tongs over a dung fire till smoked tinged and then dipped in used oil of dubious origin.

And I'm sure we could all have a good chuckle over the manufacturing processes of our forbears in conditions of grinding poverty not too many years ago.

The problem is not with Indian manufacturers, but they are a convenient scapegoat for the unthinking, the xenophobes and racists, not that I'm suggesting any forum members fall into those categories. The problem is with, as JRouche alluded in his title, Enco's QC, or rather lack thereof. Do you really think Enco don't know the quality of what they are buying for resale? Do you really think Enco have QC standards that keep getting flouted? Do you think those f'n Indians keep putting one over Enco, container after container after container?

That's BS guys. You can't run an organisation like Enco (or Grizzly or HF or Shars) without a business plan, without knowing EXACTLY what you are doing, ie buy as cheap as cheap as possible. Quality control? No thanks, that will push up our buying price. All over India there are desperately poor people trying to weld sh*t to clay with coathanger wire to make parts for Enco. They are making what Enco wants, what Enco orders, don't blame them or 'India' for the poor quality of some of Enco's products, place any blame for poor quality product squarely on Enco's shoulders. Now where are they headquartered?

J Tiers
12-08-2010, 10:34 PM
Bob:

What you say is true. What the folks you choose to "call" racists say is ALSO true.

it's really simple.......

Companies GO to china or India in the first place to reduce their costs...... getting anything made there is cheaper than here, or most anywhere else. Everyone knows that.

So you START OUT knowing that the company selling the product is trying to make money by buying from the cheapest possible source.

The problem is that, as I can vouch for from personal experience, it is VERY HARD to get goods that are the "next rung up" in quality. I have been pressed hard by the chinese sources (I worked at one time for a company that sourced in china) to accept lower quality because the cost was less.

On top of that, the chinese company would sometimes simply make the units the cheaper way anyhow, and then basically stand there and say "who ya gonna call? here's your stuff, you gotta have it, it will be months before you can replace it, quit complaining and accept it". They didn't actually say that directly, but that is the real story on how it worked.

if you ever accepted that, EVERY shipment would be made to that lower standard forever after.

Every sample would need to be fully evaluated, even if only a small correction was made..... If you did not do that, and there was a problem with the shipment,. the vendor would say "you accepted a sample just like that". And when you look, it is true..... the problems you had got fixed before were back in the new sample, and you are stuck with the shipment.

What it means is that the chinese businesspeople are pretty sharp, they know how to "work" american customers, and they know what they can get away with.

From another angle, they are, or at that time only a few years ago, were, still learning the manufacturing biz..... they had to take uneducated farm workers and make them high tech manufacturing workers..... in no time. And then they had to do it again, because 25% of their workers might not come back after chinese new year, they went to Shanghai to get a better job.

You can have the nicest factories in the world, and the chinese do have a lot of those..... but at the end of the day, workers put the products together, and in china it is simply hard, and getting harder to find qualified workers. they move on as soon as they get to be good, because they can get paid more, and maybe get out of the hot sweaty factory.

Plus, in both china and India, and most of asia and the east, manual work is low class, everyone wants to be a white collar worker at least. Factory work is no longer the only thing going, and is no longer desirable even to uneducated farmers.

Both effects mean that it was harder to get complex products made to spec. I suppose that to still be the case, with the secondary and tertiary level manufacturing companies that are involved with this sort of product. Top quality factories pay well and keep good workers.

It isn't racism, it is a realistic assessment of the state of manufacturing and business practices in asia.

And the result is that often the products are second or third class, made in low budget factories, or even by piece work at home, by workers who are not skilled, and are poorly trained and low paid.

India is merely china with 25 years less experience.

JRouche
12-09-2010, 01:40 PM
THEY are paying for return shipping? How did you DO that?

They made ME pay to ship back bad goods...... THEY didn't pay a nickel, and I paid to ship them TO me also. So I was on the hook for ALL the shipping, despite THEIR product being crappy.

I'm thinking its because I got it to me originally free shipping so the free shipping just continues.

Ummm? Guess what? Yup, number two is also a lil orange. I actually took this one out of the plastic (didn't the first one it was so bad) to see if it would clean up. Its acceptable, orange turned into some small dark lines. Ill live with it and move on. Too many other things to do than chit-chat with Enco about a replacement.

To be honest, I still enjoy shopping at Enco and I truly believe we will see some higher quality items being sold by Enco and others coming out of India. Some day, just not this day. JR

First one. It was like this on all sides.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/Jrouche/HSM/a.jpg

Rough angle plate. There are two options. Machined and precision ground. This is definitely ground. Or would that be dragged, like behind the UPS truck.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/Jrouche/HSM/b.jpg

Next to an Indian ground surface. Maybe the Chinese could use some lessons from the Indian company. Just kidding. It ALL falls on Enco's shoulders. Back to QC and that was the purpose of this thread. Hey look. My slag covered hot rolled plate steel work bench has a better finish. Its all good. I'm a lil disappointed but not pissed. Off to tackle some other issues that are more important......

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/Jrouche/HSM/c.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/Jrouche/HSM/d.jpg