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View Full Version : anyone here ever make their own lugs for building bikes?



andy_b
12-07-2010, 08:50 PM
I seem to recall some guys on here who have done some bicycle building. I'm getting the urge to ride a real fat tire monster like the Surly Pugsley, and I think it would be cool to build a lugged frame for the Large Marge rims and some 3.8" tires. I don't see why I couldn't weld up my own lugs, but I'm just looking for any tips or gotchas to watch out for. I'd just be using 4130 for everything. I'd be using straight wall tubing for the frame instead of butted because I really don't think I need butted tubes if I use lugs. The tubes would be brazed into the lugs and not welded together, so my thought is I don't need the extra thickness at the tube ends. I may very well be wrong on that though. :)

andy b.

Thruthefence
12-07-2010, 10:28 PM
Bicycle engineering forum:

http://www.eng-tips.com/threadminder.cfm?pid=664

gary350
12-07-2010, 11:04 PM
I ride all the time and I build lots of bikes. Here are some pics of a few.

This one is called a Low Racer. Wind resistance is 2/3 less that of an upright bike. I can pedal along fairly easy at 24 mph. If I pedal real hard I can get it up to 32 mph. It is a lot of run to ride. It has 24 speeds with 100 psi tires. I built 2 of these and I have frames for 3 more.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/gary350/low02.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/gary350/Bike002-vi.jpg


This is a very nice riding bike with 16 speed and high pressure tires. I did not built it for speed but I can pedal it 20 mph. I ride it a lot around town and I have a trailer that I build for hauling firewood, lumber, groceries, all sorts of things. I can haul 130 lbs of firewood on the trailer. I am in the process of putting a 20 gallon air tank on the trailer and a Locomotive Train horn in the bike. It is going to be fun to honk at people.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/gary350/Bike02.jpg



This is a real fun bike to ride it is like driving a sport car. I is very manoverable and quick. It has 24 speeds and 100 psi high pressure tires. It has low wind resistance and if very fast. I built 2 of these. Seats on all the bikes are adjustable, seat slices forward and back for riders with long or short legs, back tilts forward and back too.
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h292/mikeweaver/P-38-018.jpg



This is another nice smooth riding bike I put over 1000 miles on it one summer then sold it. It has 24 speeds with 100 psi high pressure tires.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/gary350/Bike01.jpg




This was a fun bike to ride my Son road it to high school for several years.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/gary350/trike1.jpg




My Son use to ride this one to school sometimes too.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/gary350/tall1.jpg



I use to have 24 bikes that I built when my Son was young all the boys in the neighbor hood would come to our house Saturday morning, leave their bike and take one of mine. The whole group of about 11 boys spent the whole weekend riding bikes.

Randy
12-07-2010, 11:45 PM
Yes, you can build your own lugs. Years ago I was going to build a tandem frame that way. At first I was going to try to TIG weld tube sections together, and cut and file them into lugs. But I found that TIG welding thin tubes takes the hands of a surgeon, and I didn't enough access to a welder (at weekly class sessions at a local school) to aquire that skill. Then I realized that I could brass braze the lugs together, and silver braze the frame tubes into them. About that time Tom Kellogg, one of the country's top framebuilders, did just that, and his frame wound up on the cover of Bicycle Guide magazine. Beautiful work. If I can find that old magazine I can post some scans, if you like. Also some photos of my lugs, as far as they got.

If you want to make something nice, you'll want to use butted tube. The heat affected zone extends an inch or more back from the lug, and the tube is somewhat weaker there, so you need extra thickness there. The middle of the tube can be thinner.

smudgemo
12-08-2010, 12:01 AM
Why not just brass braze the tubes together? Making lugs usually involves brazing short tubes together for a slip-fit of the frame tubes and silver. Skip the extra work and expense. You can get all sorts of 4130 tube sizes from wicks and aircraft spruce, but even if you use straight gauge tubes, you still have to use at least .035 unless you are an experienced welder using hardened tubing. Steerer tubes are even thicker where the crown attaches.

Henry James sells good flux and brass/silver, and he can offer plenty of advice. You can also get an idea of how thick the various tubes should be. Just be careful. I've seen the result of a frame coming apart.

Lots of building info can be found here: http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=142

andy_b
12-08-2010, 12:05 AM
Thanks for the replies!!!

Thruthefence,
I'm going to have a lot of reading to do on that link you posted. :)

gary350,
WILD designs!!!! Definitely post any tips you have (or other frames). Very cool!!! Are your frames all TIG welded? And I want to see that cart with the 130 lbs. of firewood on it.

Randy,
Thanks for the butted tube info. Looking around, it looks like most tubes are sold as double- or quad-butted anyway, so it looks like I'd be using something like that by default. I'd love to see photos of the lugs you were working on. I figure if I leave the tubes round where they enter the lugs, then my lathe should be able to do whatever ID I need for the lug pieces. Post the scans if you find the mag, I'd like to see it. Are there any mags dedicated to bike frame building? I never even thought to look into that.

andy b.

andy_b
12-08-2010, 12:16 AM
Why not just brass braze the tubes together? Making lugs usually involves brazing short tubes together for a slip-fit of the frame tubes and silver. Skip the extra work and expense. You can get all sorts of 4130 tube sizes from wicks and aircraft spruce, but even if you use straight gauge tubes, you still have to use at least .035 unless you are an experienced welder using hardened tubing. Steerer tubes are even thicker where the crown attaches.

Henry James sells good flux and brass/silver, and he can offer plenty of advice. You can also get an idea of how thick the various tubes should be. Just be careful. I've seen the result of a frame coming apart.

Lots of building info can be found here: http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=142


Yes, those buggers posting over at mtbr are what got me thinking about this. :) I originally went there to get some info on a few old Cannondales, and a guy mentioned his Pugsley project. Then at the local bike store two weeks ago they had a Pug on display. We go to the Outer Banks on vacation every year or so and I figured some of those Surly Endomorph tires would be great for sand at the beach, and snow behind my house. The guys in the frame builder forum on mtbr seem a bit harsh on newbies, so I figured I'd check with my buds here at HSM to get started.

I just love the look of a lugged frame, mainly because it looks old, and I like anything old. I don't own a TIG welder, and I'm not sure how much I trust brazed tubing joints. Yes, it looks like lots of builders use them, but since I like the look of lugs, and I'm pretty good with welding fairly thin tubing with the MIG welder (not bike frame thin though), I figure I can MIG the lugs, and then braze the tubing in.

andy b.

TGTool
12-08-2010, 12:27 AM
Gary,

That's quite the chain track on the first bike. How long does it take after you shift the front sprocket for the change to get back to the rear wheel? :D

Seriously, very nice looking and interesting work.

boslab
12-08-2010, 02:27 AM
Recumbent [spelling?] bikes with respect seem a little dangerous, only recently i saw a guy fall over at a traffic light, on UK narrow roads they look more successful than a Swiss suicide clinic.
Didnt Evan build a Hybrid, seem to remember somthing but even saying that they do look like a bit of a challenge to build, in most cases i would guess that a hard soldered or brazed 4130 with a goot tight set up would equal the strength of a tig welded tube or at least come close, at least brittle fracture would be less of a problem, unless of course you want an ali frame in which case tig is the only way [or glued bosses, i seem to remember an article in a mag about using epoxy resins to make bikes]
I have a couple of bike fanatics at work, they seem to spend an awful lot on saving grams on frame weight like titanium nuts and bolt and all sorts of carbon fibre bits, it seems they will pay a couple of thousand for a frame!, it tempts me to start building them!
mark

Randy
12-08-2010, 02:33 AM
You say you like lugs? Well, here is a site you must visit. You'll get lots of ideas for classic fancy lugs.
http://www.hetchins.org/

smudgemo
12-08-2010, 09:08 AM
Those are nice looking bikes, Gary.

I had a couple of other thoughts on this, Andy. The Pugs has a lot of engineering going on because of how wide the tires are, and it's going to be tough to figure all of that out. Chain clearance is the major issue.

Second, I recall a thread (probably on MTBR) about MIG, and that it wasn't really considered acceptable. I only use O/A and know nothing of MIG, just mentioning it. You won't get flamed if you use the search function before asking questions there.

Best of luck! It's really awesome to ride around on something you built, or take it to work and have the folks there scratch their heads at how anyone could actually build something from scratch.

gary350
12-08-2010, 10:17 AM
Thanks for the replies!!!

gary350,
WILD designs!!!! Definitely post any tips you have (or other frames). Very cool!!! Are your frames all TIG welded? And I want to see that cart with the 130 lbs. of firewood on it.



I built an adjustable frame welding fixture. I start at the back wheel and mount the metal parts the correct wide to match the back wheel the bike will have. I cut out those pieces on the mill. Next I set the front axle distance between the 2 wheels also the axle height. Next I mount the steering fork in the fixture with the steering tube with bearings. The steering tube angle has to change according to the distance between the front and back axle other wise the bike will not steer correctly. The angle of the steering tube changes from 20 degrees for short wheel base to 33 degrees long wheel base. If you put a steep angle on a short wheel base bike steering is very quick and sensitive. Next I adjust the fixture to hold the pedal crank tube in the correct location. Now that all the parks in the fixture I measure between the parts, cut the tubes, mill half round places in the tube ends so they fit perfect to the part they will be welded to. I tack weld all the tubes in place. After all the tubes are in place then I weld everything using an old Lincoln stick welder using 3/32 7014 rods. If all the tubes fit perfect it is easy to weld. I can't weld any tubes with a wall thickness of less than .062". Next I grind all the welds smooth. Next the frame is cleaned, sanded, primed, and painted. In the summer I hang the frames in the hot attic 150 degrees for a week makes the paint hard as rock. Now the parts are ready to assemble to the bike.

http://home.earthlink.net/~gary350/lowracer.jpg


Check out the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMGN94NVU3k

RussZHC
12-08-2010, 12:08 PM
+1 on the fillet brazing idea...if you want the molded look as opposed to what you appear to be after (the fancy type of lug)

IIRC if the fancy lug is your choice, and you have LOTS of time, you can buy "blanks" that are longer than the norm and you can cut in whatever shape you want, often a makers logo for example

And this is one case where "cheap" works better since, again IIRC, many of the really fancy lugs are cast ("pre") and you then have to make the angles, with a very small allowance, exactly as cast or you will crack the casting. The "cheap" are more thick sheet metal factory welded together and have a large range of angles that can be accommodated at each joint. There needs to be some care with overall geometry of the design since you can effectively build yourself into a corner where either nothing matches or end up with characteristics of the finished frame that are the last thing you want (often "lazy" handling; "mine" tended to be the opposite since they were track bikes, you look at them and they turn)

Not knowing the model you refer to, you may find it difficult to find lugs of the size of tubes you want to use (they may be using something proprietary) which was the reason some went to fillet brazing back in the day. I could be horribly wrong but most lugs will come from SE Asia, people like Henry James and Kelllog may get some of theirs done locally but for the most part...and you may find it tough to get what you want unless you go through another established builders since, given what these pieces are, volume is an issue.

http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/LUGS-ROAD-STD-FLEUR-DE-LYS-SERIES.html

is from Nova. Don't forget if you want all the bits and pieces matched, not all lugs sets can be "gotten" with matching bottom brackets and some lugs don't work with some other details (that you may or may not want to use). Once you start digging there are choices though that may require back and forth to Europe.

I would also suggest you do really want to go with butted tubing v straight gauge, the cost can be quite different but that is most prevalent when you go to the aero shapes and really high end tubing types and the cost of tubing is a relatively small percentage of the overall "cost" of the frame, time is the big $$$.

bborr01
12-08-2010, 01:19 PM
Gary350,

Thanks for the eye candy. Very, very nice work.

Brian

kf2qd
12-08-2010, 03:57 PM
AtomicZombie.com is a cool site for bicycle building on a budget. Check it out.

jep24601
12-08-2010, 04:22 PM
I fillet brazed a frame.

andy_b
12-08-2010, 07:37 PM
You say you like lugs? Well, here is a site you must visit. You'll get lots of ideas for classic fancy lugs.
http://www.hetchins.org/

Randy,

Now THOSE are some sweet lugs! That is the kind of crazy look I'm going for. Just imagine a Pugsley-looking fat-tire bike with lugs looking 100 years old. I'd almost have to paint the frame red and lugs gold just to add to the effect. :)



Those are nice looking bikes, Gary.

I had a couple of other thoughts on this, Andy. The Pugs has a lot of engineering going on because of how wide the tires are, and it's going to be tough to figure all of that out. Chain clearance is the major issue.

Second, I recall a thread (probably on MTBR) about MIG, and that it wasn't really considered acceptable. I only use O/A and know nothing of MIG, just mentioning it. You won't get flamed if you use the search function before asking questions there.

Best of luck! It's really awesome to ride around on something you built, or take it to work and have the folks there scratch their heads at how anyone could actually build something from scratch.

Yeah, the funky offset for the fat Pug tires and 100mm bottom bracket are the parts that concern me. It is interesting how Surly overcame that with the odd curves of the rear triangle and fork.

I only want to MIG the lugs. There is no way I'm good enough to MIG the thin-wall tubing of a bike frame (at least not one under 50 pounds).



I built an adjustable frame welding fixture. I start at the back wheel and mount the metal parts the correct wide to match the back wheel the bike will have. I cut out those pieces on the mill. Next I set the front axle distance between the 2 wheels also the axle height. Next I mount the steering fork in the fixture with the steering tube with bearings. The steering tube angle has to change according to the distance between the front and back axle other wise the bike will not steer correctly. The angle of the steering tube changes from 20 degrees for short wheel base to 33 degrees long wheel base. If you put a steep angle on a short wheel base bike steering is very quick and sensitive. Next I adjust the fixture to hold the pedal crank tube in the correct location. Now that all the parks in the fixture I measure between the parts, cut the tubes, mill half round places in the tube ends so they fit perfect to the part they will be welded to. I tack weld all the tubes in place. After all the tubes are in place then I weld everything using an old Lincoln stick welder using 3/32 7014 rods.



Gary,

I'd like to see photos of your frame jig. And I can't believe you are welding up frames with an old Lincoln stick welder!!! It certainly looks like it works though. :) I also see you measure headtube angles like I do. For some reason it just seems more normal to refer to the angle away from vertical instead of the angle away from horizontal.



+1 on the fillet brazing idea...if you want the molded look as opposed to what you appear to be after (the fancy type of lug)

IIRC if the fancy lug is your choice, and you have LOTS of time, you can buy "blanks" that are longer than the norm and you can cut in whatever shape you want, often a makers logo for example

And this is one case where "cheap" works better since, again IIRC, many of the really fancy lugs are cast ("pre") and you then have to make the angles, with a very small allowance, exactly as cast or you will crack the casting. The "cheap" are more thick sheet metal factory welded together and have a large range of angles that can be accommodated at each joint. There needs to be some care with overall geometry of the design since you can effectively build yourself into a corner where either nothing matches or end up with characteristics of the finished frame that are the last thing you want (often "lazy" handling; "mine" tended to be the opposite since they were track bikes, you look at them and they turn)

Not knowing the model you refer to, you may find it difficult to find lugs of the size of tubes you want to use (they may be using something proprietary) which was the reason some went to fillet brazing back in the day. I could be horribly wrong but most lugs will come from SE Asia, people like Henry James and Kelllog may get some of theirs done locally but for the most part...and you may find it tough to get what you want unless you go through another established builders since, given what these pieces are, volume is an issue.

http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/LUGS-ROAD-STD-FLEUR-DE-LYS-SERIES.html

is from Nova. Don't forget if you want all the bits and pieces matched, not all lugs sets can be "gotten" with matching bottom brackets and some lugs don't work with some other details (that you may or may not want to use). Once you start digging there are choices though that may require back and forth to Europe.

I would also suggest you do really want to go with butted tubing v straight gauge, the cost can be quite different but that is most prevalent when you go to the aero shapes and really high end tubing types and the cost of tubing is a relatively small percentage of the overall "cost" of the frame, time is the big $$$.

Russ,

Thanks for all of the info and links. I have the info for Henry James, but not the others. I'm just looking at using round 1" tubes. Nothing odd-shaped or over-sized. The Pugsley is kind of a cross between a beach cruiser and mountain bike with lightweight 26" motocross tires stuffed under the frame. There's no suspension on it due to the low pressure you run in the 4" wide tires.

I have been reading and talking to some guys who said fillet-brazed joints are plenty strong enough, but I'm just after the look of frame lugs. I figure if I make my own then I can cut them for whatever tube angles I need. The tubing to make the lugs is cheap enough ($15 for 2' of it), that I can experiment with lug styles and not worry about scrapping a few. Heck, 2' is probably enough to make every lug for one frame and still have 6" left over.

Yeah, butted tubing for the frame itself definitely seems like the way to go. That looks like all I'm finding anyway, and it really isn't that expensive (about $120 for enough tubing to do an entire frame). I figure I'd buy a headtube and bottom bracket tube, but the rest I can make. I'd probably also buy the front and rear dropouts only because they are cheap, and then I don't need to worry about the correct geometries for the derailleur hanger and disc brake tabs.



AtomicZombie.com is a cool site for bicycle building on a budget. Check it out.

Thanks! Another one I never heard of. "On a budget" is always a positive in my book. :)


I fillet brazed a frame.

Pics??? :)

andy b.

gnm109
12-08-2010, 07:41 PM
British motorcycles were mostly built with brazed frame lugs back in the post war era. Brazing, when used on thin tubing is very strong indeed.

jep24601
12-08-2010, 10:23 PM
British motorcycles were mostly built with brazed frame lugs back in the post war era. Brazing, when used on thin tubing is very strong indeed.
They eventually went to welded lug frames but even then brazed lug frames were always used for racing because they were stiffer. This is because the frame tube was fully fixed in the lug as the braze alloy flowed down between the tube and lug. With welded frames you could always get a bit of flex of the tube in the lug becuase it is only fully attached at the face of the lug.

smudgemo
12-08-2010, 11:03 PM
Fillet brazed frame and lugged fork for my six year old. If you properly fillet brazed a join, the tubes will fail before the join.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5202/5199999725_ef1d6d7a71_o.jpg

My lugged commuter sans paint:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4102/4794646971_bc10f68564_b.jpg

My home-built frame fixture:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4118/4795280170_9a40afff45_b.jpg

PeteF
12-09-2010, 12:18 AM
That's a superb looking jig!

andy_b
12-09-2010, 09:53 PM
Fillet brazed frame and lugged fork for my six year old. If you properly fillet brazed a join, the tubes will fail before the join.


My home-built frame fixture:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4118/4795280170_9a40afff45_b.jpg

Those frames look beautiful. And I like that jig. Nice and simple. I think that is what I'll build for my jig.

andy b.

Randy
12-10-2010, 02:42 AM
As promised, some scans & photos.

Here is the article from Bicycle Guide magazine Dec '85. You can't read the text or look closely at the small photos, so if you want I can email you the full size scans.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/rykrisp/bg1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/rykrisp/bg2.jpg


This is a set of (rather roughly) welded lugs from a Columbus tandem tube set, around 1980.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/rykrisp/coltanlugs.jpg

Here are my brazed lugs, as far as I got them. (Yet another project that, sadly, will never be completed.)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/rykrisp/mytanlugs.jpg

andy_b
12-10-2010, 06:44 PM
As promised, some scans & photos.



This is a set of (rather roughly) welded lugs from a Columbus tandem tube set, around 1980.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/rykrisp/coltanlugs.jpg

Here are my brazed lugs, as far as I got them. (Yet another project that, sadly, will never be completed.)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/rykrisp/mytanlugs.jpg

Randy,

Thanks for posting!!! Building a regular bike seems like a project, building a tandem is like a whole different world. What did you use to weld the first lugs, MIG? I see on the second set you started sketching how you were going to cut them. That is pretty much what my idea is. I have some funky ideas for them though, and there is absolutely nothing available from any current manufacturer that even comes close. The old Hetchins ones are something along what I'm thinking, but even more outlandish.

I'm still debating on whether to MIG the lugs, or braze them with bronze/brass. I plan on brazing the frame tubes into the lugs with silver brazing wire, so the temperature should stay low enough to not remelt the brass joints on the lugs themselves, or so I'm thinking.

One thing I just discovered is that with the price of all precious metals going up, the silver alloy wire will probably cost almost as much as all of the frame tubes.

andy b.

gary350
12-11-2010, 11:29 AM
Here is my bike frame fixture. Everything moves except the bracket for the back wheel. The bottom bracket holder can be any place I like even in front of the front wheel any heights I want. The front fork bracket moves too and can be adjusted to any height with longer bolts and spacers. Fork can be bolted in place at any angle. Measure between the parts, cut and mill tubes, weld in place. I get all my parts from $5 year sale bikes it takes longer to cut the frames and grind the welds and remove scrap metal from old frames than it does to make a new frame.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/gary350/BJ1.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/gary350/BJ2.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/gary350/BJ3.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e358/gary350/BJ4.jpg

andy_b
12-11-2010, 08:39 PM
Here is my bike frame fixture. Everything moves except the bracket for the back wheel. The bottom bracket holder can be any place I like even in front of the front wheel any heights I want. The front fork bracket moves too and can be adjusted to any height with longer bolts and spacers. Fork can be bolted in place at any angle. Measure between the parts, cut and mill tubes, weld in place. I get all my parts from $5 year sale bikes it takes longer to cut the frames and grind the welds and remove scrap metal from old frames than it does to make a new frame.



That's funny on the old yard sale bikes. I think the only tough part would be a headtube to fit 1 1/8" fork tubes, but that standard has been around long enough that they should start turning up fairly regularly.

Regarding your jig, it doesn't get much simpler than that. I think the only mod would be for larger wheels, or fat tires, the bottom bracket needs to have a pretty good drop. For my crazy project I'd say it needs to be 2" lower than the line between the front and rear axles. It would be easy to just set your jig up with the front and rear axle mounts higher to take care of that though.

Since we've gone from lugs to jigs, anyone else have any bike building jigs they've built? I like the ones using the 8020 aluminum extrusions, now I just need to find some cheap.

andy b.

smudgemo
12-12-2010, 02:25 AM
Some alternative fixtures, but I simply used vee-blocks and shims for my first frame.

http://www.instructables.com/id/The-simplest-bicycle-framebuilding-jig-I-could-com/

http://www.instructables.com/id/Bare-Bones-Bicycle-Fork-Jig/

http://www.instructables.com/id/Almost-jigless-bicycle-frame-building/

gary350
12-12-2010, 12:49 PM
I never really intended my fixture to be used for multiple bike frames. I built a low racer and needed a fixture. I started with the back axle then mounted the fork attachment then mounted the bracket to hold the bottom bracket tube just infront of the 20" front tire. The bikes has a 700C back wheel and a 20" front wheel.

Then I wanted to build a different bike so I decided to use the same fixture I just had to move a few items to different places and change the height.

Then I did the same thing to a 3rd and 4th bike frame.

The mistake I made was permently welding the bracket for the back axle. It is designed to be 4" wide thats perfect for all bikes if I use different width back wheels all I have to do is use a longer 3/8" threaded rod for that back axle and put double hex nuts on each side of the parts to hold then in place. The right side always has to be offset more than the left because of the freewheel or cassette and derailleur.

Front axle bracket I can move any place I like and use any length axle I need too.

Bottom bracket tube holder is the same way I can move it any place I want in between the 2 wheels or in front of the front wheel and it can be adjusted to any height.

I did not build infinite height adjustments I only have it drilled for the 4 frames that I built. But there is plenty of places to drill more holes for any bike frame size and shape you can thing of.

It is all mounted to a piece of 1/2" x 4" CRS. This piece of metal was scrap from something else and it already had a lot of unwanted holes in it. It was originally about 12" long I cut it shorter to some random length I think it is about 8 ft long now.

I built a tandom bike frame for 2 after riding the bike I decided not to build anymore. The person on the back needs to coperate if they lean over side to side and wiggle and don't want to help pedal its a pain in the ass to ride. I was going to build a bike for 6 then get some friends to see how fast we could make it go but I never did.

I still want to build a 3 wheel Low Racer when I get finished with some of my other projects first.

I am going to build a totally inclose bike car that I can ride in the rain and snow in all weather conditions. We get about 250 days of rain per year here in TN I would love to move back to Arizona they get about 5 days of rain per year.

TGTool
12-12-2010, 02:20 PM
I've been intending to run around to a museum in OKC that has a two person bike but not a tandem. I learned after some searching that they used to be called a sociable. In any case, two seats, side by side, with two large wheels outboard amidships. It had two smaller wheels fore and aft with a small D- handle in the middle for steering that turned the fore and aft wheels in opposite directions. (Still not sure if that seems like a good movement. Why not just a rear caster?) Anyway, the thing looked terminally cute for just meandering around with a friend or significant other. This thread makes the possibility of actually building one seem more realistic and buying old bikes from the annual police sale another boost toward possibility.

bruto
12-12-2010, 03:54 PM
I've been intending to run around to a museum in OKC that has a two person bike but not a tandem. I learned after some searching that they used to be called a sociable. In any case, two seats, side by side, with two large wheels outboard amidships. It had two smaller wheels fore and aft with a small D- handle in the middle for steering that turned the fore and aft wheels in opposite directions. (Still not sure if that seems like a good movement. Why not just a rear caster?) Anyway, the thing looked terminally cute for just meandering around with a friend or significant other. This thread makes the possibility of actually building one seem more realistic and buying old bikes from the annual police sale another boost toward possibility.There was a modern version of this, called the "buddy-bike". Unfortunately it was rather cheaply made, and the pedal design was a bit of a problem, resulting in the rather cheap-looking bent-steel crank setup you see often in side-by-side paddleboats. I've seen pictures of a more sophisticated one using two bottom brackets, which gives a much better pedal design at the cost of more frame.

Searching the web for these is complicated a bit because apparently the original "Buddy-Bike" is no longer made, but the name now is used by a company making tandems for handicapped riders.

Here's the single-bottom-bracket one that apparently is no longer made: http://www.velo-zuerich.ch/velo-zuerich/velo/tandem/buddy-bike/tandem-buddy-bike.htm

As you can see, the components are pretty low grade, steel wheels, steel cranks, bolt-on derailleur hanger, etc. I saw one once at a sale, and it was quite unimpressive in terms of quality, looking as if it would be frustrating for anyone but the most casual cyclist on level ground.

Here's a picture of a more sophisticated if bulkier design, though I haven't bothered to look further for details. But you can see that it has a double bottom bracket and a good deal more frame holding it all together.

http://rockthebike.com/node/492

andy_b
12-12-2010, 06:15 PM
Those two-wheel side-by-side things look like death traps. This one looks more similar to what TGT was thinking of:

http://www.hiwheel.com/antique_replicas/courting_cycle.htm

I'd like to see photos of the one with the small wheel in front and back. That sounds cool.

Oh, I'm going to order up some 1.125 x 0.058 tubing to play around with building some lugs, and some 1 x 0.035 tubing to use as sample frame tubes to see how silver brazing works to hold the tubes in place. My first attempt will be just MIG welding the 1.125 into various lug configurations to test my theory. I'll post photos, but they probably won't be anything refined looking.

andy b.

bruto
12-12-2010, 07:30 PM
Those two-wheel side-by-side things look like death traps. This one looks more similar to what TGT was thinking of:

http://www.hiwheel.com/antique_replicas/courting_cycle.htm

I'd like to see photos of the one with the small wheel in front and back. That sounds cool.

Oh, I'm going to order up some 1.125 x 0.058 tubing to play around with building some lugs, and some 1 x 0.035 tubing to use as sample frame tubes to see how silver brazing works to hold the tubes in place. My first attempt will be just MIG welding the 1.125 into various lug configurations to test my theory. I'll post photos, but they probably won't be anything refined looking.

andy b.I agree. You'll never catch me on one

rowbare
12-13-2010, 11:33 AM
I am going to build a totally inclose bike car that I can ride in the rain and snow in all weather conditions. We get about 250 days of rain per year here in TN I would love to move back to Arizona they get about 5 days of rain per year.

Here is a good if non-technical article about velomobiles:

http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2010/09/the-velomobile-high-tech-bike-or-low-tech-car.html

There is a side by side shown as well.

bob

TGTool
12-16-2010, 10:53 PM
I finally got down to the museum today and actually have an entry in the lugs department. This is interesting for the wooden frame which was said to have enough reslience to eliminate the need for springs.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/TGTool/P1010320.jpg

Anyway, the one I was really thinking of was even more interesting than I remembered. It was called a convertible adult tricycle because one side consisting of wheel, seat and pedals could be unbolted leaving a three wheel remainder of one large wheel amidships and two smaller ones fore and aft - an arrangement that would never have ocurred to me.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/TGTool/P1010309.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/TGTool/P1010307.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/TGTool/P1010306.jpg

The prospect of a convertible bicycle doesn't have any particular attraction, but the basic layout seems like a nice prospect for a rolling stroll about town. If doing it today I'd certainly make some changes such as gear changing and might think about a frame arrangement that could use regular cranks and sprockets. OTOH, a well built pedal system like this might actually work.

andy_b
12-16-2010, 11:00 PM
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/TGTool/P1010307.jpg



That's pretty neat! Now imagine you're on one side pedaling, and Lance Armstrong is on the other side. You'd spend all day going in circles. :)

andy b.

TGTool
12-16-2010, 11:00 PM
And to add machining content, there's also this steam power possibility. 1885 Lucius Copland.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/TGTool/P1010325.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/TGTool/P1010323.jpg