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madman
12-09-2010, 07:35 PM
George H. Thomas's book "The Model Engineers Workshop Manual
Just read about this book. Went online and there were lists of FREE ? downloads well a hour later besides one asking for a credit card number ???I wonder what all the crap about free book reading ect. online is all about? Anyways has anyone ever seen this book available for free online reading? I was especially interested in the custom through chuck style boring bar./ Thanx Mike

Regnar
12-09-2010, 08:23 PM
Have a look at Google Books. The title popped up but I am outside the US and the service isn't available. Your books publishing date seems kind of new and might not be out of the copyright time frame.

whitis
12-09-2010, 08:30 PM
I don't think there are any legitimate download/reading sites for that book.

There are pirated copies available on the net. Some are hosted without permission on legitimate file sharing sites (rapidshare, filefactory) that make you either pay for a subscription or wait to download. At least one of those was pulled and at least one still seems to be alive. Then there are more sites that are pay only download. Then there are the search engine spam sites that just link to the pay download sites and each other.

This is the publisher's page:
http://www.teepublishing.co.uk/search.php?searchAlive=1&title=MODEL%20ENGINEERS%20WORKSHOP%20MANUAL

lazlo
12-09-2010, 09:30 PM
There are pirated copies available on the net. Some are hosted without permission on legitimate file sharing sites (rapidshare, filefactory) that make you either pay for a subscription or wait to download.

I've discussed the site you're talking about with several prominent members here. They have every Tee Publishing book, every Projects In Metal, Metalworking, and Shop Wisdom of ... book.

Apparently you download an encrypted .PDF, and they charge you for the decryption key. It amazes me that Village Press hasn't sued them by now.

This is the reason I think that the digital subscription to the Village Press magazines is a profoundly bad idea. It took less than 2 months for the entire set of digital archives of Model Engineering Workshop (for which I paid $50 USD) to show up on BitTorrent... I expect the same thing to happen with the digital editions of Home Shop Machinist and Digital Machinist.

snowman
12-09-2010, 10:36 PM
Holy crap batman! MEW is on bittorent?

Is it in a better format than the godawful reading method that I get with my paid subscription?

whitis
12-10-2010, 12:16 AM
I've discussed the site you're talking about with several prominent members here. They have every Tee Publishing book, every Projects In Metal, Metalworking, and Shop Wisdom of ... book.


And which site are you referring to? Rapidshare? It is a file sharing site - with whatever random users upload. Many are legitimate but there are also many pirated works there (which are taken down if the publisher complains), including scans of dead tree editions.

Limiting yourself to dead tree distribution can hurt yourself and your customers. Many people don't want dead tree editions taking up space, that they can't read on the go, etc. The people downloading the pirated copies probably aren't going to buy, anyway. Many publishers and media companies are paranoid that the copies are just as good as the paid originals; their "solution" to this problem is to make the paid originals worse than the copies (copy protection).

Circlip
12-10-2010, 05:13 AM
It took less than 2 months for the entire set of digital archives of Model Engineering Workshop (for which I paid $50 USD) to show up on BitTorrent...

Haven't had a look at the "Bays" rip offs but is the quality the same as MHS's overpriced service??

What you've missed in your post Lazlo is the fact to obtain the "Priveledge" of the digital access subscription is that it's a yearly renewal service for a badly produced archive.

Whilst not advocating copyright infringement, the only way to combat it is to make a copy available for a fair price but there are those who would never buy them no matter how cheap.

There does seem to be however a vast number of the British Model Engineering titles we are allowed to "Share", bet there would be howls of outrage if other modern publications were ripped.

Regards Ian.

snowman
12-10-2010, 06:19 AM
Haven't had a look at the "Bays" rip offs but is the quality the same as MHS's overpriced service??

What you've missed in your post Lazlo is the fact to obtain the "Priveledge" of the digital access subscription is that it's a yearly renewal service for a badly produced archive.

Gotta agree with the quality statement.

I purchased the MEW access, and wish I hadn't....at least now I'll get something that I can hopefully, easily navigate....and read offline.

I guess the question now becomes, do I renew my digital archive access, or do I spend that money on getting a hard copy instead.

rohart
12-10-2010, 08:12 AM
I can understand young cool city types not wanting to burden their shelves with anything other than Madonna's book on female pheromonics, or a coffee table treatise on bungee jumping. And they might live in cramped apartments, as I know they don't all get bonuses.

But our way of life has to include space for bits of iron, so spare space for the odd 5 volumes of Holzappfel should be possible. When the time comes for me to chuck out all my tools, I'll still keep my shelf of old machinery books.

I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time associating someone who wants to read about machining techniques with the same person wanting to rip off publishers in the same field by uploading material.

Bar stewards !

snowman
12-10-2010, 09:14 AM
You are kidding me right?

You are talking about the publishers that screw the actual authors out of anything resembling a paycheck, then charge exorbinant prices for their perils of printing (or in the case of the kindle, simpy converting the authors typewritten words to their format).

I pay, on average, $200 per copy for my various veterinary texts. It is strange to me that I can buy a similar sized book with better quality printing for $30 at retail with fiction in it, all the while, the fiction author getting paid considerably more.

I've personally got no qualms telling Elsevier, Blackwell, and any other educational publisher out there to suck it.

Mcgyver
12-10-2010, 09:46 AM
I've personally got no qualms telling Elsevier, Blackwell, and any other educational publisher out there to suck it.

Why? You just begrudge $200 for a text....that doesn't mean they're doing anything wrong or that the price is unfair. It is simply a matter of volume. Examining a $200 medical/scientific text vs the the $30 novel provides zero insight into whether publishing is lucrative or that they are being unfair.

Informa, a publicly traded med/science publisher averages a 7.5% net profit, respectable but not over the top. Some of their subscription titles (the old G&B line for example) are thousands per year often with only 4 issues appearing.....but they only make a 7.5% profit? Obviously the answer is very low volumes vs popular fiction.

lazlo
12-10-2010, 10:26 AM
I've discussed the site you're talking about with several prominent members here. They have every Tee Publishing book, every Projects In Metal, Metalworking, and Shop Wisdom of ... book.
And which site are you referring to? Rapidshare? It is a file sharing site - with whatever random users upload.

The website to which I'm referring is a professional website (it looks like a legitimate business) with a giant catalog of illegally scanned Pdf's of hobby-related publications. Each entry in their catalog links to encrypted Pdf's they've uploaded on various file sharing websites, including Rapidshare.

I'm told by other members here that the way their system works, you download the encrypted Pdf for free, and pay for the decryption key.

Meaning, anyone else who downloads the file from Rapidshare et al won't be able to read it until they've paid for the encryption key.

lazlo
12-10-2010, 10:35 AM
It took less than 2 months for the entire set of digital archives of Model Engineering Workshop (for which I paid $50 USD) to show up on BitTorrent...Haven't had a look at the "Bays" rip offs but is the quality the same as MHS's overpriced service??

I downloaded the Bittorrent to see what they were, and they are in fact the same crappy scans that I paid $50/year to read online with MyHobbyStore's lousy Flash reader.


What you've missed in your post Lazlo is the fact to obtain the "Priveledge" of the digital access subscription is that it's a yearly renewal service for a badly produced archive.

Yes, sorry for that omission Ian. I've posted before that MyHobbyStore is the perfect antithesis of Village Press: terrible customer service, userous subscription rates for North American subscribers (but not Europe, Australia or New Zealand ???), retroactively reducing the size of the digital archives we already paid for, and a clunky scheme to "rent" access to a badly produced archive with an oddball Flash reader...

Lest Tiffie imply that we're whinging -- the scans are so bad that in many cases you can't see what's in the pictures, or read the dimensions off the plans :(

snowman
12-10-2010, 10:39 AM
Why? You just begrudge $200 for a text....that doesn't mean they're doing anything wrong or that the price is unfair. It is simply a matter of volume. Examining a $200 medical/scientific text vs the the $30 novel provides zero insight into whether publishing is lucrative or that they are being unfair.

One might think your line of thinking if the digital versions coming out were not sold for the same, or a very lightly discounted price. If they are doing that with virtually no overhead costs for the digital version, do you really think that the costs are related to sales?

The costs are related to what we are used to. I expect to pay $200 for a textbook (and have to), while I would be enraged to pay $200 for a work of fiction (and wouldn't).

Circlip
12-10-2010, 11:10 AM
Good ole "My balls are sore", another advantage of purchasing the "Official" digital rip off is that those on the site are incomplete, the plans included as a pull out aren't. Don't understand how the accountants passed up the opertunity to have a FREE, quality scanned archive. Bet Percival Marshal is rotating at high velocity in his grave.

Rohart, I started with Issue 1 of MEW and have approx 80 issues which take up a groaning 2Ft. of wall space together with the attendant weight. My holiday reading is greatly enhanced by being able to take the whole damn lot with me on one or the other type of plastic storage media. Figure.

Regards Ian.

Mcgyver
12-10-2010, 12:15 PM
One might think your line of thinking if the digital versions coming out were not sold for the same, or a very lightly discounted price. If they are doing that with virtually no overhead costs for the digital version, do you really think that the costs are related to sales?
.

Cost of sales is easily determined, I didn't bother looking that far though.
I don't think you understand what overhead means - overheads are your fixed expenses, the expense that don't change much as unit sales vary, they are NOT raw materials/supplies or things consumed in production. If you sell something with a zero cost of goods sold , all your expenses are overhead. For something digital you'd expect COGS to drop to next to nothing vs hard copy but overhead to increase (additional IT resources, whatever). It may well be that the required increase in overhead to offer something digitally offsets the reduction of cost of goods sold, paper ink etc.

Anyway, doesn't matter, my line of thinking was that with only a 7.5% profit, why do they deserve your scorn over the price of the books or digital version? They're obviously charging just enough to make a modest profit, if Infroma's metrics hold true through the industry....or were you saying the price should drop a lot with digital? Maybe, but adding the ability to deliver digital adds overhead.....and so long as they are also delivering print they can't carve overhead costs out there to offset

rohart
12-10-2010, 07:35 PM
Snowman: If your earlier reply was aimed at me, I said publishers in the same field. I somehow doubt that the bosses of Lindsay or Tee are coining it with the low volume runs they have, and the relatively low prices they charge.

I was under the impression that this thread was started on the subject of engineering texts being uploaded.

I, like you, have little sympathy for outrageous prices, but some of these academic texts need one hell of a lot of pulling together, and don't get many sales.

I'm trying to gather as many 'dead tree' reference books as the house will hold. I've got three copies of the two volume shorter oxford dictionary. There aren't going to be any more when book publishers have all gone to the wall. Books will be like brass microscopes - solid investments.

mike4
12-11-2010, 02:46 AM
Snowman: If your earlier reply was aimed at me, I said publishers in the same field. I somehow doubt that the bosses of Lindsay or Tee are coining it with the low volume runs they have, and the relatively low prices they charge.

I was under the impression that this thread was started on the subject of engineering texts being uploaded.

I, like you, have little sympathy for outrageous prices, but some of these academic texts need one hell of a lot of pulling together, and don't get many sales.

I'm trying to gather as many 'dead tree' reference books as the house will hold. I've got three copies of the two volume shorter oxford dictionary. There aren't going to be any more when book publishers have all gone to the wall. Books will be like brass microscopes - solid investments.
One advantage of a book is that you can read it any where , no pc or power required.

Circlip
12-11-2010, 04:42 AM
I'm trying to gather as many 'dead tree' reference books as the house will hold. I've got three copies of the two volume shorter oxford dictionary. There aren't going to be any more when book publishers have all gone to the wall. Books will be like brass microscopes - solid investments.

Ahh, the truth will out, sod the content, how much is it worth?

Told before, I managed to pick up (well not all together) about 3Ft. of a specialist model making magazine years before home computers and scanning etc. for the equivalent of $8 (bout £5). Sadly the seller stated had he known that they were worth some thing, he wouldn't have taken an equivalent pile his father had collected over the years to the local DUMP.

SWTSMBO has just finished scanning a three volume set of engineering books which take up all of about 1/2 a meg. This can easily be dropped onto a CD and will probably be sold. NOT for some exhorbitant fee, but just enough to cover price of raw disk and postage, possibly a few coppers to her too (don't want to spoil her). This was done NOT to try to rape unsuspecting punters but for ME to take on holiday electronically again. It also ensures that theres a record of it thats more redily available than the local dump.

Remember the lead charachter in H.G. Wells "The Time Machine" going apes**t in the library cos all the books had been left to Rot???

Again, not advocating trying to put anyone else out of business, but how many specialised jobs in other industries have hit the wall thanks to electronic technology, same argument for loads being able to "Afford" machine tools?

Regards Ian.

Weston Bye
12-11-2010, 07:22 AM
...You are talking about the publishers that screw the actual authors out of anything resembling a paycheck, then charge exorbinant prices for their perils of printing ...

I don't know who you have been dealing with. When I started writing for Digital Machinist, I did a survey of other hobby magazines, electronics, woodworking, etc, and found that Village Press paid very well in comparison to the others. Very well indeed when circulation figures are considered. The machining magazines sell fewer subscriptions than the others - a smaller market, so the cost of content is a higher percentage. By this comparative measure VP is rather generous to their authors.

Evan
12-11-2010, 09:18 AM
I don't know who you have been dealing with. When I started writing for Digital Machinist, I did a survey of other hobby magazines, electronics, woodworking, etc, and found that Village Press paid very well in comparison to the others.

My understanding is that the usual rate is $40 per page. That is a token payment in my book. I was making that (standard) rate in the early 1980's writing for a very specialized computer magazine called the Transactor. Just taking into account inflation since then the rate should be about $120 per page.

SGW
12-11-2010, 07:13 PM
I hope you realize there is a cost and profit difference between a veterinarian textbook containing a lot of detailed information that may optimistically sell a few thousand copies, and a work of fiction that is straightforward text and may sell a million copies.

Weston Bye
12-11-2010, 11:33 PM
My understanding is that the usual rate is $40 per page. That is a token payment in my book. I was making that (standard) rate in the early 1980's writing for a very specialized computer magazine called the Transactor. Just taking into account inflation since then the rate should be about $120 per page.

And where is Transactor today? Seems they might have been too optimistic and you may have been overpaid. Apparently VP has been more prudent with their business model. They were publishing Live Steam magazine back in the '70s, and HSM, MW and Digital Machinist are offshoots from that.

I find considerable enjoyment doing the projects and then writing about them. That aspect may not mean much to you, but is worth something to me. It is certainly better than sitting in front of the TV.

I knew what the pay was when I started. I am able to support my hobby. My point still stands: VP still pays better than other such magazines.

Evan
12-11-2010, 11:54 PM
And where is Transactor today? Seems they might have been too optimistic and you may have been overpaid.

Transactor folded because their business model depended on a computer company that ended up being run by a soft drink salesman. VP may pay better than the others but that doesn't make it generous. $40 per page is very low pay for a technical article. When I write an article there is no editing to do. It is camera ready. That takes time.

George Bulliss
12-12-2010, 12:23 AM
I will be the first to admit that the pay is low; I have proof of it every other week in my paycheck. The truth is, with a circulation of somewhere (Iím not at my office computer) around 13,000, there is only so much money to go around.

The figure of $40 per page is a bit misleading though. That is for text only. Photos and drawings push that figure higher. An average payout runs about $425 per article. That is an average of course; each issue has at least one or two authors receiving over $1000.

It is certainly not a career option for most of us, but if you are doing the project, or experimentation, as a hobby anyway, it is a lot more than you would have received.

It is what it is, but I assure you that there is no one getting rich off the authors

Iím still pushing for more pay though.

George

jkopel
12-12-2010, 12:38 AM
Hey Evan, that brings back happy memories.
I bought a used PET in 1979 and was thrilled to find out about Transactor from the seller who gave me a few early copies. I subscribed until 1981 (your welcome) when I sold the machine and when it arrived each month I would lose a day or two reading it and experimenting with the ideas.

Kind of like when HSM shows up now :D
Josh

The whole archive is online BTW http://www.csbruce.com/cbm/transactor/