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Old Time
12-10-2010, 01:21 AM
I have a really old mill drill, no brand name, no model number. It does have a decal that states made in Taiwan. I bought it to flesh out my lathe and shaper. When I got it I had a friend that was a high school wrestling coach, he brought four of the wrestlers, they picked it up and set it on the stand. I now need to move it and have no wrestlers. The question is, would it be okay to lift it by using T-nuts with studs and nuts with a length of chain between them? The main problem I see is the T-nuts sliding closer together when the load came on them. It doesn't have any provision to lift it by the head. Any ideas would be appreciated, thanks.

Greg Q
12-10-2010, 01:30 AM
As you point out, the studs will want to meet in the middle. They may even bend. Can you move it with rollers or does it need to come off the stand?

The most popular lifting method seems to be an engine hoist which you may be able to rent locally. Otherwise rig up some kind of overhead beam and use a block & tackle.

Can you get a sling under the head? Or install an eye bolt?

PeteM
12-10-2010, 01:42 AM
While chances are it might work, you'd be mighty unhappy to take a chunk out of your t-slot and watch the mill drop.

It would help to know what mill drill you have (pix). In general, it's pretty easy to run a few slings: under the (locked) table, around the column, and under the (locked) head and bring them to a balance point.

It's usually pretty easy to remove parts of the mill (head, table . . .) and move them by hand for all but the largest mill drills.

If you can borrow something like a hydraulic lift table, it's often easy to just slide the mill drill off its base and on to the table; set to the same height.

Lot more ways to move this -- all better than lifting by the T-nuts of a cast iron table.

Tait
12-10-2010, 08:34 AM
Does it have holes in the base for bolting the machine to a table or workbench?

Mine does - if had to move it, I'd probably install eye-bolts on those as lift points. Or, more likely, tie through those to a pair of stacked 2x4s, then lift from bolts in the 2x4s.

Edit for safety: Later posts point out the possibility of the machine flipping over. To clarify, boards should go far enough outside the physical machine to maintain stability; also, if using a crane or sling rather than a bunch of guys, it would make sense to stabilize the head using an additional so it can't tip.

Highpower
12-10-2010, 08:45 AM
You need to lift it from the highest point possible unless you want to watch it do a somersault in mid air. :(

recoilless
12-10-2010, 01:29 PM
You should be able to unbolt the bottom of column from back of the base?? This will allow you to move two lighter components.
This how me and the cop that followed me home got mine into my shop a while ago. This one is also an unlabeled, except for "taiwan" in the chinese characters, mill. My father speaks some mandarin and was able to decipher the code.

GadgetBuilder
12-10-2010, 05:11 PM
There is enough room to pass load straps under the base, protect them with the plastic angles used on steel strapped items. Two 750 pound load straps used as shown and an engine hoist did the trick for me. The towels protected the paint and the position of the straps prevented a flip-over. The head is rotated to the side and the table moved opposite to balance things.

http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/MillLift.jpg

John

PeteF
12-10-2010, 05:34 PM
Never lift a machine by the table, they're not designed to take these sorts of loads. And definitely don't lift from the base ... well ok you could, but be sure to video it, then find yourself featuring on "Funniest Home Videos" as the machine does a double twist with a pike in front of you!

You should be able to run a loop of soft rope around under the table, casting spigots, etc so that it loops around the machine and both ends are at the top. As a rule of thumb, you want to lift from the machine castings and not any tables, handles, switches, or anything else that is bolted to it. As long as your lifting point remains above the centre of gravity the machine will be stable and will lift just fine.

Be careful, once a machine starts to get away from you all you can do is stand back and watch the carnage unfold. My wife was helping me move a heavy item a few weeks back (fortunately just out to be dumped). I wasn't too worried about it as it was just scrap but I foolishly listened to he advice "why don't you do it this way". Unfortunately we found out precisely why my initial slow but sure way was better when it got away from us!

charlesb
12-10-2010, 06:10 PM
I used an engine hoist in combination with 1/4" steel cable for the slings. I slipped an old garden hose over the cable so it would not damage the mill/drill.

The same arrangement worked fine for my lathe, when it came in.

The engine hoist was rented, but it was so handy that I'm thinking about making one.

boslab
12-10-2010, 06:34 PM
You REALLY dont want to try what you suggest, not unless its a viral ad for a rigging company!, eyebolts must be shouldered to lift at stated load, into solid metal not a brittle cast iron tee slot, plus the table is designed fo compressive forces, nylon strop round the column is ok, just be careful,,..
when things start to fall over folk do odd things like try to stop them, I had the pleasure [not] of reading a safety bullitin in work of a guy landing a 16 ton narrow coil of steel, it landed on a 4" chock block and started to tip, instead of hoisting he put his hand on the coil to steady it, the brain does funny things, he couldent, it wouldent and the end result was a funeral at the local crematorium, gravity is a good servant but a bad master, it may be small but dont be deceived into thinking it wont bite
regards
mark

PeteF
12-10-2010, 07:20 PM
I think one of the peculiarities with these smaller machines is that they're able to be manhandled and so even if you did know the model etc there's no guarantee the manufacturer would give any specifics on how to properly sling the thing. I just bought a couple of machines and the first thing I did was ring the manufacturer and ask them to send me the slinging page from the manuals. As it turned out, the surface grinder has a few "gottas" in the slinging information so buying the manual from them was money well spent. Mine are NOT big machines either, under 300 kg in fact, but lifting and safely transporting them is something I take VERY seriously. Ironically from what I've seen I think the bigger machines are more straight forward as there's no temptation to take short-cuts hoping for the best. The manufacturers know they will be craned at least at some stage, and possibly even provide points to do so.

What I meant in terms of the description in my previous post is something like this http://www.machinemanuals.net/web_pages/van_norman_no12.htm it probably looks nothing like your machine but the principles are the same regardless.

What you don't want to happen is this http://www.truetex.com/moveclausing.htm

Sorry Tiffie, but I couldn't resist posting some links, I hope you're not a Union Shop in regards link posting :p

gnm109
12-10-2010, 07:31 PM
When I sold my H.F. Mill Drill last year, I used an engine hoist with nylon rope wrapped around the head near the column. I lifted it a couple of inches and then unbolted the base.

Then we rolled the hoist with the unit over to the buyer's pickup truck and lifted a little more and set it down on the bed.

You really need at least an engine hoist. I wouldn't use the T-slots.

whitis
12-10-2010, 07:41 PM
You can hoist a machine from the base - if you do it right. The method shown by gadgetbuilder doesn't look quite right. While the machine would need to be upset a fair amount before it starts to flip, as pictured it can probably flip if something catches on something or gets bumped. The machine can tip out between the straps. Straps need to be secured to the column above the center of gravity, even if they apply the lifting force below the center of gravity. Aternatively, the straps can be reinforced until they are effectively a net. Sometimes, it is necessary to lift from the base alone, in which case you need a wide effective base for the straps and individual straps from each lift point to a rigid frame overhead and the load should be secured even if it flips over (for high lifts). Here is an amusing pic: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-10701281
Not quite right.

As soon as the center of gravity of the machine moves outside the perimeter defined by the polygon connecting the support points, the machine will flip over. With the high center of gravity and narrow base of most machine tools, this is a possibility to be taken seriously. It may take a significant amount of force to trigger such an event, but it is much lower than the forces involved in lifting or the inertia of the machine and in close quarters catching some part of the machine on something is enough to do it.

gmatov
12-10-2010, 10:15 PM
Oldtime,

Can you post a pic of it. I would assume that it would have a couple cored holes in the bed that you pass a couple 3/4 inch bras thru, and sling there.

That absent, put a choker around the overarm part and lift from there. It may lift on an angle. If you mean a mini milling machine, wind the table back to the column, equalize the weight. If it is one that incorporates a lathe, remove the tailstock.

Choker hitch will not allow anything to flip over unless you are totally inept. Stay out from under it, just in case you think you are more adroit than you actually are.

I have picked machines that weigh hundreds of time what yours weighs without incident, but I know what I am doing. Post a picture. We might tell you where the lift should be made.

Cheers,

George

gmatov
12-10-2010, 10:43 PM
Whitis,

I just looked at Gadgetbuilder's post to see what you are complaining about.

One choke hitch on the overarm, if there is one, will lift it without problem.

Many of my machines were built with holes in the base to take 4 inch solid bar to loop large wire rope slings about. Or trunions, to loop even bigger braided cables about, like 500 ton generator stators.

Engineers ALWAYS determine lift point, CG. They can be off, especially because chain slings are close but not perfect. When I lowered steam turbine rotors into the casing, we used Allen wrenches to adjust the lift. 1/8, 9/32, whatever it took to make it absolutely level. Clearances were in the thousandths.

To pick up that mini machine, throw a sling about it and lift it. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Tittilating LOTS of people who don't have anything else to do, but still, c'mon. Pick the sum'bitch up. You ain't gonna break it.

Cheers,

george

oldtiffie
12-10-2010, 10:57 PM
Re-thought it and deleted it.

Bill736
12-10-2010, 11:28 PM
I bought an older Bridgeport round ram milling machine a couple of years ago, and the seller delivered the machine to my shop . He had loaded the mill onto his truck with his forklift under the base, all on smooth concrete. I had a rented forklift, but we were unloading and transporting the mill on very uneven gravel and dirt outside my shop. I insisted on unloading the mill by lifting from the top, on both sides of the ram, (a method approved by Bridgeport.) Unloading by lifting under the base would have been far too unstable for the conditions, and for a top heavy Bridgeport. The previous owner left in a big huff, claiming I may have damaged the mill , but as long as the clamping bolts on the ram are tight, there is no damage done to the mill by lifting that way.

PeteF
12-11-2010, 12:19 AM
You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Tittilating LOTS of people who don't have anything else to do, but still, c'mon. Pick the sum'bitch up. You ain't gonna break it.

Cheers,

george

George, with due respect, you said yourself that you're doing this all the time so maybe it's no big deal for you. However for those of us who aren't riggers, this type of thing does demand respect. Even a machine of 100 -200 kg can really ruin somebody's day(s) if they're in the wrong place doing the wrong thing at the wrong time, not to mention the damage to the machine itself. The OP's initial suggestion was, as I understood it, to put some T nuts in the table and use them to lift the machine :eek: In which case yes he CAN break it when they break out. As you said, without seeing the machine, almost certainly the best way to lift this is to sling it, but that's a far cry from the initial proposal, so maybe it's just as well there are those of us willing to point that out, given that we "don't have anything else to do" :mad:

Old Time
12-11-2010, 01:27 AM
Thanks for the ideas, I looked the project over and I think the best plan is to unbolt the column and lft it off with the head attached. Then sling the base. This all came about from poor planning when I got it. The crane I have, with a chain hoist will only lift the complete machine about an inch and a half before it runs out of chain. The stand is on wheels but as luck would have it, the machine on the stand is 2 inches to tall to fit under the truss in the middle of the shop. Thans again and take care.

AllThumbz
12-11-2010, 08:57 AM
There is enough room to pass load straps under the base, protect them with the plastic angles used on steel strapped items. Two 750 pound load straps used as shown and an engine hoist did the trick for me. The towels protected the paint and the position of the straps prevented a flip-over. The head is rotated to the side and the table moved opposite to balance things.

http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/MillLift.jpg

John


+1 on John's method- the position of the straps is key and needs to be adjusted before you begin lifting to prevent tipping over. Notice he has the engine hoist right there, and the legs are surrounding the mill. Lift slowly and watch for any shifting of the straps.


Nelson

gmatov
12-12-2010, 01:31 AM
Thumbz,

The problem is, with the legs alongside the machine, he can only put it down on a stand that will fit between the lower members of the lift. If he wants to put it on a bench, the lower member prevent that, unless he is going to get it swinging.

PeteF,

I don't think you CAN break out the slots on a table with the weight of the machine. The size of the machine determines the size of the table, and the depth of the slots.

That is not to say that any given machine will balance and be lifted safely with table slots. Some machines cannot be lifted, or even balanced with lift on the table slots. Surface grinders, for one. Some planers, for another. Roundways, not V-ways. Just lift the table off.

Those with V-ways can take advantage of the table to get equilibrium. Crank the table in or out to balance. MOST machines come from the factory with diagram of how TO lift. If you don't have the book, ask, maybe someone does have the book.

My machines ran from about 3 tons to 500 tons, or more. 200 ton limit on the cranes, of course they were segmented, laid in in pieces. Not a lot of 125 foot long, 40 foot tall machines shipped down ANY roads.

I don't do that anymore. My mini-machines tell me to stick a 3/4 inch rod in the headstock, and another hitch at the tailstock end to lift it. That's a Chinee machine, f'rcrissake.

I have some manuals for Bullards, Cinci 80's, etc, and every one has "How To Lift" in the book.

First way to determine COG is to cut out a picture of the piece. Stick a pin through it, somewhere, and see if it balances. If not, move the pin till it does. I would all but bet that that is the way they did it with 120 foot long lathes. You don't pick them in one piece. They are segmented, BUT, the head end, the headstock and the first 30 feet or so, is one piece. CG would be about 1/3 the way back from the faceplate.

Mini machines as depicted, wrap a rope about it and haul away. One I bought I used leverage, board and pivots, to lift 2 feet, to the bench. 100 or so pounds, but I can't lift that, anymore. Other, I drilled into the joists to rig a HF tackle. Worked well.

I maintain that the puny little machine posted is a simple matter of getting your back under it and lifting. It probably goes 3 to 400 pounds, 2 men could do it, but he DOES say he hasn't got the wrestlers to do the move.

Wrestlers, I might add, are not all big fat guys that jump off the ropes and kill people. Wrestlers are skinny 120 pound kids who outsmart their opponents and pin them. And then the next class and the next, all by weight. When you get to 600 pounds, you get to Sumo.

IF you need help to lift the machine, go down to the curb and ask a couple half way decent looking people if they would help you? 10 or 20 bucks apiece would get your machine where you want it.

This ain't rocket science. I had some damned dumb people ass my helpers.

Cheers,

George

Arthur.Marks
12-12-2010, 02:11 AM
MOST machines come from the factory with diagram of how TO lift. If you don't have the book, ask, maybe someone does have the book.

Yup.
http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx357/Arrak_Thumrs/Widgets/mill_drill_lift1.jpg
http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx357/Arrak_Thumrs/Widgets/close.jpg

AllThumbz
12-12-2010, 09:25 AM
Thumbz,

The problem is, with the legs alongside the machine, he can only put it down on a stand that will fit between the lower members of the lift. If he wants to put it on a bench, the lower member prevent that, unless he is going to get it swinging.


The hoist ram can be extended outwards and has holes for adjustments. You simply extend it out as much as possible and is safe for the load that you are moving. I have a 2T from HF and the final hole is 1/2 ton I believe, which should be plenty in this case. I would attach a tag line to the base of the mill and use that to swing the base onto the bench, then release the lift as soon as it is steady on the bench.

dave5605
12-13-2010, 11:50 AM
Be darn careful with the lift arm extended beyond the arms with the casters on them. If what you are lifting weighs more than the weight of the engine hoist then the whole thing is going to pivot on the casters and come crashing to the ground.

Of course you could use some redneck engineering and put counterweights on the back of the engine hoist. then your limit becomes the strength of the arms/legs on the engine hoist.

gnm109
12-13-2010, 12:06 PM
I went back and re-read the OP here. It seems that all he said was the he want's to "move" his mill drill. He didn't say, initially at least, whether he was moving it across the room or into a truck so as to move it across town.

I needed to move my H.F. across the room a couple of years ago. My son and I just dragged it. took about two minutes.

When I later sold it, I just picked it up with a rope and an engine hoist to remove the base. Then I rolled the mill part over to the buyers truck. The engine hoist was on the forthest extension. No problem. After the buyer left, I had a cup of coffee and counted the money.

You folks are making this job too hard. But after all, this IS the internet. LOL. :)