PDA

View Full Version : Something interesting about our Sun



wierdscience
12-14-2010, 12:29 AM
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2010/13dec_globaleruption/

Black_Moons
12-14-2010, 12:36 AM
Meh the movie is in quicktime format. Other then that giant blunder, the article was rather intresting.

Evan
12-14-2010, 01:10 AM
I'll pass on that one.

dp
12-14-2010, 01:16 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuTijH1Jqu0

krutch
12-14-2010, 03:28 PM
I don't know what's more amazing, that we don't know as much as we think we know about the sun, or that we ignore the suns effect on global warming. As far as I know man didn't make the sun but we get blamed for what the sun is doing to warm the planet.

noah katz
12-14-2010, 05:14 PM
I don't know what's more amazing, that we don't know as much as we think we know about the sun, or that we ignore the suns effect on global warming. As far as I know man didn't make the sun but we get blamed for what the sun is doing to warm the planet.

Not sure it's what you're saying, but the sun isn't getting any hotter.

It's what we're doing that retains more of the sun's heat.

Carld
12-14-2010, 05:57 PM
If that's so then why are we having such cold winters?

noah katz
12-14-2010, 08:49 PM
If that's so then why are we having such cold winters?

You can't just pick one area and look at it.

This last summer in the SF Bay Area was the coolest I can remember, but there were record breaking high temps in a lot of other regions.

Plus the earth goes through huge variations without us, i.e. ice ages.

Not sure how exactly they apportion cause/effect, but I believe it's pretty straightforward computer climate modeling to predict the effect of all the gases we put into the atmosphere, and that the predictions are that we are a significant factor.

We look up and the sky looks infinite, but if it were all as dense as it is at sea level, it would be about 5 miles thick; not a lot really.

kendall
12-14-2010, 10:29 PM
I don't know what's more amazing, that we don't know as much as we think we know about the sun, or that we ignore the suns effect on global warming. As far as I know man didn't make the sun but we get blamed for what the sun is doing to warm the planet.


A couple years ago there were various news releases that stated that ALL the planets in the solar system were shown to be warming up, many with data that corresponded with data used by global warming supporters.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080522121036.htm

is one found after a quick search, certain there are others.

Many global warming/climate change sites report them as inaccurate due to the equipment used to publish those facts, even though most of their own supporting data is obtained from monitoring stations such as these:
http://www.norcalblogs.com/watts/weather_stations/

No bearing?

In my own town, they recently moved a weather station from an empty field (implement dealer built there) to a location ON the freeway right of way located at most 15 feet from traffic. (slow lane, shoulder,guard rail, weather station) This is 70 mph freeway traffic that from experience is normally moving at 80+. Shortly after they installed it the posted average wind speed and precipitation levels went up a lot because it is measuring the wind ,spray and re-blown snow kicked up by traffic.

gwilson
12-14-2010, 11:15 PM
The Sun certainly does have cycles where it gets a bit cooler,or hotter. From the 900's till 1857,the Maunder Minimum was in effect. The Sun wasn't producing as many sunspots,and the climate cooled a few degrees. It eventually caused the French revolution. Everyone in Europe had to change their eating habits,growing colder weather crops formerly considered cow food,like turnips. The stubborn French refused to stop trying to grow wheat,and began to not have enough bread.

Suddenly,in 1857,the Sun warmed up again. This is well documented fact.

lazlo
12-14-2010, 11:33 PM
From the 900's till 1857, the Maunder Minimum was in effect.

Suddenly,in 1857,the Sun warmed up again. This is well documented fact.

:) The Maunder Minimum was 70 years, from 1645 to 1715.


The Sun wasn't producing as many sunspots,and the climate cooled a few degrees. It eventually caused the French revolution.


Solar physicists are puzzled why the cold weather during that period of low sunspot activity was isolated to Europe and the Americas. What's your theory on why the reduced sunspot activity didn't lower temperatures in Asia or any of the Southern Hemisphere?

Bill736
12-15-2010, 12:02 AM
As for global warming,there are factors that come and go, but I do believe what we've been doing to our atmosphere will have dire consequences in many ways. Our atmosphere is but a thin shell of a layer over our planet. If the earth was represented by an 18 inch diameter beachball, the atmosphere would be a layer about 1/8 of an inch thick . Three quarters of our atmosphere would be in the first 23 thousanths of an inch of that layer. Put into that perspective, it's not hard to imagine that the huge amounts of pollutants and contaminants we pour into our atmosphere hourly will have serious effects on those creatures as ourselves who rely on the atmosphere for our existance. Add to that the water and soil pollution we create continually, and we're wallowing in our own filth; breathing it, drinking it, eating it, bathing in it. There have to be consequences.

dp
12-15-2010, 01:07 AM
:) The Maunder Minimum was 70 years, from 1645 to 1715.

The effects of that are still being felt. Snout ice in many glaciers can be traced to the beginning of the Maunder Minimum and there has not been one since. The glaciers are retreating to pre MM status. Much of the world has depended for a long time on that ice melt. It was never a reliably renewable resource.


Solar physicists are puzzled why the cold weather during that period of low sunspot activity was isolated to Europe and the Americas. What's your theory on why the reduced sunspot activity didn't lower temperatures in Asia or any of the Southern Hemisphere?

You probably don't want to go there - or at least read up on the latest data regarding the MM impact on South America where proxies show it was as impacted as those parts of the world that kept records.

The problem has not been that it didn't happen, or even that it did - nobody with a clay tablet and written language was available to keep records, and the populations in the new world were overturned before historians gathered a proper record of pre-contact events. Follow the trail to lake bottoms. The truth is in the mud cores. Of great interest is the discovery of glacial flooding as happened in the northwest (google scablands - but don't accept any cookies!).

dp
12-15-2010, 01:10 AM
Add to that the water and soil pollution we create continually, and we're wallowing in our own filth; breathing it, drinking it, eating it, bathing in it. There have to be consequences.

You just described the ocean. It seemed to be working fine for all the stuff that has always lived in it. I think adaptation has always been busy keeping creatures in balance with changing habitat.

lazlo
12-15-2010, 01:31 AM
The effects of that are still being felt. Snout ice in many glaciers can be traced to the beginning of the Maunder Minimum and there has not been one since.

The Maunder Minimum dropped temperatures by .5 - .7F In Europe and North America. During the same time, temperatures in Asia and South America actually increased. The Polar caps, and the largest glaciers, were completely untouched.

Which is not surprising, since the overall emissivity of the Sun only changed by 1/2%.


You probably don't want to go there - or at least read up on the latest data regarding the MM impact on South America where proxies show it was as impacted as those parts of the world that kept records.

Citation? Preferably not one paid for by BP or Exxon, or a Winger site?

Evan
12-15-2010, 01:58 AM
If that's so then why are we having such cold winters?


We aren't. The lowest lows are much warmer than they used to be. It isn't the highest temperatures reached that define warming. It's the lowest temperatures.

Here is an example. This pattern is the same at weather stations all over Canada. I haven't checked but I am sure it doesn't stop at the border.

The chart shows the average of the daily low temperatures for every month. The dips below the line are the average lows in winter and the peaks are the average lows in summer. The summer time lows haven't changed but the winter lows have become very much warmer.

http://ixian.ca/pics8/tempchart.jpg

dp
12-15-2010, 03:10 AM
The Maunder Minimum dropped temperatures by .5 - .7F In Europe and North America. During the same time, temperatures in Asia and South America actually increased. The Polar caps, and the largest glaciers, were completely untouched.

Which is not surprising, since the overall emissivity of the Sun only changed by 1/2%.

If you're limiting your self to solar irradiance as the prime forcing agent in terrestrial climate you are leaving yourself big gaps in what is actually going on.



Citation? Preferably not one paid for by BP or Exxon, or a Winger site?

http://meetingorganizer.copernicus.org/AvH6/AvH6-10.pdf

http://www.drroyspencer.com/

You might think Dr. Spencer is a winger because he doesn't agree with you. Oil money is now going to alarmists as it is the quickest way (my opinion) to shut them up.

jackary
12-15-2010, 03:37 AM
Snout ice in many glaciers can be traced to the beginning of the Maunder Minimum and there has not been one since.

How did they sniff out Snout ice?

Alan

John Stevenson
12-15-2010, 04:22 AM
How did they sniff out Snout ice?

Alan

Looking for truffles Alan ?

.

jugs
12-15-2010, 04:58 AM
5 min version HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07hbPtpcjx8&NR=1) - beautiful images.


Back in Aug/sept the local farmers noted a change in plant & animal behavior & said we are in for a hard winter.

Late Aug was unusually wet.

This yr the the jet stream has moved (normally predictable), bringing us arctic air

We had SNOW !!! in Nov :eek: , first time in 30yrs, normally we don't get snow

Suns activity in aug followed by large changes in weather patterns, a coincidence ?? I think not.

john
:)

Evan
12-15-2010, 05:45 AM
Suns activity in aug followed by large changes in weather patterns, a coincidence ?? I think not.


There is no question that the Sun influences the weather. That isn't the issue. What is in question is the rise in average temperature that is occuring without a corresponding rise in solar output. The changes in the solar output are a factor of ten too small to explain the temperature rise of our atmosphere. It is only the suface of the planet that is changing temperature, not the entire planet.

Increases in the amount of energy stored in the atmosphere mean more extreme weather. It is exchanges of energy between the heat reservoirs and the heat sinks that drives the weather. The greater the differences the more extreme the weather. For Canada this year is now officially the hottest on record since records have been kept.

mike os
12-15-2010, 06:03 AM
so less that 200 years then......;)

I'm with prof emeritus J stott... "climate change is a tautology"

"Climate science" is imo about as relaible as alchemy was 200 years ago... lots of ideas all grasping at straws & the only allowable "evidence" is that which agrees with my pet theory of the day in the persuit of a "goal" that is unachievable and probably impossible, and about as useful. Although in truth it is a religion rather than a science, and as such will not allow contradictory information to be admitted or influence its preponents in any way or form. Any disenters are obvioulsy "heretics" and can therefore be ignored or rubbished as ther are "obviously wrong, becasue the ""consensus"" disagrees".

A quote I read recently sums it up perfectly..."if it's settled, its not science, if its science, its not settled"

jugs
12-15-2010, 06:18 AM
"climate change is a tautology"


I thought all the "ology's" were taught @ the university's :confused: :D

john
:)