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Krunch
12-14-2010, 04:00 PM
Hey, all,

I'm in the market for a 1/4" straight die grinder, and I've been looking at them online at Enco, Harbor Freight, etc., etc., and I'm bowled over by how much spread in price there is for units that basically look the same.

I've found kits that include a die grinder and a bunch of stones for $13 ... and I've found grinders that cost over $100 ... the more I look at them the more confused I get.

Can anyone clue me in? Should I just buy a cheap one? Is it worth getting a "name brand" (like Ingersoll Rand for ~ $50 at Enco)?

Is there really that much spread in quality and longevity on these tools?

Thanks for any clues.

jdunmyer
12-14-2010, 04:16 PM
If you're talking about air tools, I wouldn't hesitate to buy from H.F. I've had very good luck with their air tools. My 4" angle grinder crapped out soon after I got it, but they replaced it quickly w/o question.

Highpower
12-14-2010, 04:32 PM
The IR will outlast the "cheapo's" 10 fold. Buy once and your done. :)

radkins
12-14-2010, 04:45 PM
Whether it lasts or not may be a concern but the real difference between a good grinder and a cheapie is the amount of wobble in the chuck, if a carbide burr or stone is not running true it will be destroyed PDQ! Those cheap grinders, most of them anyway, usually will let the burr or stone run so far out of balance that you can feel it while holding the tool while a good grinder will be running smoothly and the stone or burr will not bounce around while being used. Since a good carbide cutter can cost twice as much as a cheap grinder any savings on purchase price will quickly be lost plus the darn thing is a PITA to use. Some of those cheap grinders may last just about forever but this is one tool where longevity may not be the most important factor. Are you looking for air or electric?

mark61
12-14-2010, 04:47 PM
The IR will outlast the "cheapo's" 10 fold. Buy once and your done. :)

Plus 1 what Highpower said!
And the IR has more grunt power than the HF! I use both regularly.

If you are asking about electric-go with Mikita. Great grinder! Mine lasted almost 17 years until some poopoo head ran it for an hour +! Can't get parts from the factory but can get parts online. I bought a new 1 and it is heavier built but still comfortable to use.

mark61

bborr01
12-14-2010, 04:49 PM
Dotco grinders are pricey but they are the Kurt vise of the grinder world in my opinion.

Depends how much you are goint to use it.

Brian

gwilson
12-14-2010, 04:58 PM
You will have to pay more than $300.00 to get a real good air grinder,probably. My Air Turbine Technology air grinder is a beautiful little piece of equipment that I have used .010" endmills in successfully. It wasn't cheap.

oldtiffie
12-14-2010, 05:10 PM
I note that the OP's requirement is for a 1/4" die-grinder which, all things being equal, has way more capacity than the usual 1/8" die-grinder which rather suggests that the grinder is required for some serious and heavy work.

If it is to be an air grinder and if it is going to get a lot of continuous work (ie heavy "duty cycle") it is going to need a compressor with a reasonably high air pressure and "free air delivery" specs. that can deliver the required pressure and FAD at the tool (not just at the tank or regulator).

If as the OP says, a lot of those different branded grinders look the same, there is a fair chance that they are the same, even if they have different brand names.

A lot of those mounted wheels and "points" have a maximum speed rating and many are of unknown or doubtful quality. There is no way of really knowing how fast an air-driven grinder is going.

I only use "Norton" wheels and "points". Not cheap but "losing" or having a high-speed unguarded wheel "explode" under load or over-speeding (often close to my face or eyes) is not something I am prepared to take a chance on.

See the "Norton" (Saint-Gobain) site for details.

I ditched my 1/8" and 1/4" air-grinders and replaced them with electric grinders (much more expensive than air-driven grinders).

Bill Pace
12-14-2010, 05:13 PM
Ive got 5 of them from HF - 3 straight and 2 angles and I use them pretty heavily. Two of the straights are some 6-8 yrs old. Primary uses are with a cut off wheel and the twist-loc sanding discs, though I also will occasionally abuse the crap out of them with a burr, and, like a Timex watch, they just keep on tickin.

Goodness, how can you go wrong, when they practically give the things away at $13 to $15, and of course if you got a %20 coupon...

Carld
12-14-2010, 05:15 PM
If you check you will find that all of them are made in China so buy the cheap one and throw it away when it craps out. I bought a HF one years ago and it is still going strong.

It's a damn shame that all our manufacturing went overseas but they do make some good stuff over there. If the manufacturers were smart they would have have reduced their overhead and stayed in the USA but they didn't.

It seems they are starting to come back home now as labor, transportation and other costs increase overseas.

noah katz
12-14-2010, 05:24 PM
I like the Aircats, strong and very quiet

they make several versions; straight, angle, extended etc

radkins
12-14-2010, 05:42 PM
Goodness, how can you go wrong, when they practically give the things away at $13 to $15, and of course if you got a %20 coupon...



That's easy, just compare them to a really good grinder in operation, the better quality grinder will run a heck of a lot smoother since the stone or burr run-out will be much less. I am not bashing HF and indeed I have spent a lot of money there, HF has some great buys in spite of what some might think but unfortunately it has been my experience those die grinders are not among the real bargains. Sure they will last and they will take a lot of abuse but comparing the two I had to my new IR was a real eye opener even though I was already aware of the differences, I was just surprised at how much better the IR really was in operation especially when using a carbide burr. As I mentioned before one good carbide burr can easily cost twice as much as a HF grinder and it will not last nearly as long in the HF tool as it will in a good high quality tool. In addition for exacting work the IR (as is other high quality tools) is MUCH easier to control the cutter in tight places and it will make a smoother cut without bouncing around. Like I said I am not against HF tools and buy from them what works for me but I have been spoiled by the high quality grinders and find there simply is no comparison in performance, plus cutter life can easily save the extra purchase cost in a short time. Usually the difference in cutter/stone balance can be felt, and even seen, by just running the tool while holding it as cutter/stone wobble is usually quite apparent when the tool is running.

Ries
12-14-2010, 10:25 PM
I use either Bosch 1210's, which are made in Switzerland (at least, the ones I have bought are) or Milwaukee 5192's. Maybe the Milwaukees are made in China now, but the one I have is made in the USA. I like the compact size of the Bosch, but I usually make add on T handles for em, kinda like the clip on a submachine gun, so they are easier to use accurately with two hands. But the Milwaukee is a workhorse too.

http://www.cpotools.com/bosch-1210-4-6-amp-utility-die-grinder/bshn1210,default,pd.html?start=1&cgid=bosch-die-grinders

http://www.milwaukeetool.com:80/tools/metalworking-and-grinders/grinders/die-grinders/4-5-amp-die-grinder/5192

I work my tools hard, and both of these models hold up to daily use on stainless and mild steel, and last years and years.

But neither of em is remotely close to $13.

Ken_Shea
12-14-2010, 11:28 PM
There are still a few not made in China, I have a Master Power and an ARO, both made in the US, also have a couple made in China, they do the job but no comparison on power or smoothness, but you pay for that difference.

lazlo
12-14-2010, 11:56 PM
There are still a few not made in China, I have a Master Power and an ARO, both made in the US.

I recently bought a Chicago Pneumatic, and it was made in Taiwan. Still, great quality, but not as nice as my Dad's Chicago's.

An option for some might be the Dotco, Suiox, et al on Eba that are listed as basket cases. You can often buy them, get a maintenance kit with new bearings and seals, and be up and running with a like-new industrial quality grind for cheap.

EddyCurr
12-15-2010, 12:05 AM
I have a couple of die grinders that were sold under the Metal Removal
name, now a Kennametal brand. (A quick check suggests that MR only
offers drills, burrs and mills these days, though.)

However, I purchased a number of inexpensive DG air tools after seeing the
convenience that comes from having a rack of these things standing by
already chucked up with the various mandrels, pads, stones, burrs and
whatever else that gets used on a task.

.

oldtiffie
12-15-2010, 02:02 AM
Here is my Bosch GGS27LC (Germany) 1/4" die-grinder - a superb tool- which besides off-hand grinding will be used for internal (cylinder) grinding (collet run-out is not more than 0.01mm ~ 0.0004"):

http://www.sydneytools.com.au/shopexd.asp?id=1229&bc=no

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=Bosch+GGS27LC+&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Med_Speed_Spindles/Bosch_HS_Grinder3.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Med_Speed_Spindles/Bosch_HS_Grinder2.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Med_Speed_Spindles/Bosch_HS_grinder1.jpg

metalmagpie
12-15-2010, 02:03 AM
I use a pair of I-R die grinders (one straight, one 90) and also a Florida Pneumatic, probably made in Taiwan. I lust after a good quality variable-speed electric die grinder. Those are the shiznits.

darryl
12-15-2010, 03:34 AM
Where I once worked, we had a Makita electric die grinder. Like everything else, if you bought one today it might be a piece of crap, or maybe they are still good. It is, or was, a good tool, and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it.

One of the guys used it a lot. He didn't have much mechanical skill, so he was dangerous- One day he was grinding away on a faceplate or something, and I heard a loud whack! He had lowered the collet nut in between the jaws of the vise. Nothing like forcing the tool to go from 25000 rpm to zero in 1/4 revolution. A piece inside snapped, separating the motor shaft from the collet shaft. So I orders up a new piece, comes in, I installs it, and within about 5 minutes---whack! He done the same thing again. Then I get a brainwave- instead of the coupling piece, it should have a centrifugal clutch. Only it should be backwards- the output shaft has to come up to speed before the clutch engages. I built it up from metal tubing, and behold and lo, it works. There's enough drag that the output shaft starts to speed up, and pretty soon it catches good and doesn't slip in normal use. If you jam it, it instantly disengages while the motor continues to turn. Unjam it and internal drag begins to speed up the output shaft again, and the clutch applies full torque once more.

Wasn't the last time I heard the whack! sound- But that was the last time I had to repair it.

If you're looking for an air die grinder, the only experience I've had with them is taking apart a cheap one. This was one with a 90 degree head on it. I was appalled at how cheesy the gears were in it- so little meshing area. The bearings did have play, and I passed on buying it. (I took it apart right in the store, I don't think anybody saw me do it) Don't recall the brand, but I as well would be choked at having to use a poor tool, even if it didn't die right away.

Black_Moons
12-15-2010, 05:12 AM
I got multiple of the cheapos, Seem to work very well, Except my 1/8" pencil grinder, the carbide burrs have a tendency to work thier way outta the collet after awhile.. Otherwise, A++.
Just remember to oil them often.

mf205i
12-15-2010, 05:31 AM
It depends on the type of work you do. By all means try a cheepo. When you get tired of the excessive air consumption, noise, vibration and run out, then you can dedicate it to a cutoff wheel. But, as the need for finesse and quality increases, you would be well served by buying a good one. Most folk’s default to air tools, I did daily for 14 years, but when you consider the noise, cost of air and how damn cold they get in winter, the quality electrics sure begin to shine. Makitas are nice, but it is true that if you horse a Makita you can blow the coupler apart. The couplers are a couple of bucks and it is an easy repair, I still consider them to be excellent grinders.
Have fun with it, Mike

Krunch
12-15-2010, 06:57 AM
Thank you all for all the great replies. I really appreciate the help.

I guess I'll start with a cheapo HF unit and then (since I never seem to have enough grinders) try one of the better brands for comparison.

If there really is a lot of runout on the cheap ones I can see how it would be "penny wise pound foolish" when using carbide burrs. That's a good point.

Thanks again, everyone.

Black_Moons
12-15-2010, 08:19 AM
PS: don't try a cheap electric. I tryed some awhile ago.. 3 of them burnt out within a week.. Well, One burnt out within 5 mins. They had plenty of power.. but where giant, unwieldly and had 6mm collets.. 1/4" Burrs are 6.3mm and do NOT fit worth a damn in a 6mm collet.

radkins
12-15-2010, 09:19 AM
Thank you all for all the great replies. I really appreciate the help.

I guess I'll start with a cheapo HF unit and then (since I never seem to have enough grinders) try one of the better brands for comparison.

If there really is a lot of runout on the cheap ones I can see how it would be "penny wise pound foolish" when using carbide burrs. That's a good point.

Thanks again, everyone.



Try this and you will most likely relegate that cheapo to the "spare"tools bin.

Using a burr just lightly touch a work piece and you will feel the bounce that will occur due to the run-out, a good tool will run smoothly against the piece without chatter. Not only will this chatter dull a burr in short order it causes a stone to wear unevenly which contributes to even more unbalance which then contributes to even more uneven wear, etc. A bouncing burr or stone will not cut nearly as fast since it will not be in contact for the full revolution, this bouncing does not have to be pronounced to cause this effect and greatly reduced performance will result even if the bounce is barely perceptible. Do yourself a big favor and don't waste your time on the cheapies no matter how cheap, you may think it is doing "ok" until you compare it side-by-side to a good one. When you are trying to use that cheapie to just touch up something, as it will often be used for, and it bounces and is hard to control that cheap price won't be such a bargain after all. Even when trying to "hog out" something the good grinders are so much better and faster it just makes little sense to even use the cheap ones. Besides the poor performance the savings on purchase price will evaporate quickly even if using only stones so after a while the price advantage is gone but you still have the cheapo tool.



A trick for using the cheap grinders with a stone is to true the stone against a dressing stone prior to use even if it is new, it will make a world of difference but of course this trick is useless for burrs. A well balanced stone is orders of magnitude faster and easier to use than an out of balance stone but out of balance is what you will get with that cheapie while a good grinder will run true, those guys who insist on using the cheap ones don't know what they are missing! There is a hell of a lot more involved in building a usuable die grinder than just spinning a shaft at high speed but the makers of the cheap ones could not care less! You will be doing yourself no favor by going with a cheapie "for now", the differences are just not worth it!

Ken_Shea
12-15-2010, 09:25 AM
Cheap DG have a definite use, when my so called friends ask to use or borrow, guess which one they get ;)
Same goes with drill bits, end mills, have cheap and quality for any occasion.

gnm109
12-15-2010, 10:42 AM
I think they're all made in the same alley in Hong Kong regardless of brand. Just different prices. I have three of the H.F. ones and they're all 10-15 years old and still work fine.

.

lazlo
12-15-2010, 10:55 AM
I think they're all made in the same alley in Hong Kong regardless of brand. Just different prices.

There are three classes/qualities of pneumatic tools that I've seen lately (now that the Western world has outsourced): mainland China, Taiwan, and Japan.

I just bought a Sioux pneumatic belt sander (model 556), it's made in Japan. Gorgeous quality. Enco/Harbor Freight sell a Chinese knock-off, and it's really crappy. I bought one and returned it.

As I posted earlier, I bought a Chicago Pneumatic butterfly impact, and was surprised that it was made in Taiwan. Definitely not as nice as the old Made in USA CP's, but still quite nice.

I've got the HF Central Pneumatic saw, needler, and a die grinder. They're loud and vibrate like crazy and seem to loose air pressure/power at weird angles. But for an occasional use tool, they're OK.

Krunch
12-15-2010, 11:26 AM
Using a burr just lightly touch a work piece and you will feel the bounce that will occur due to the run-out, a good tool will run smoothly against the piece without chatter. Not only will this chatter dull a burr in short order it causes a stone to wear unevenly which contributes to even more unbalance which then contributes to even more uneven wear, etc.

Hmmm, I hadn't thought of that, but it makes a lot of sense.

I imagine under certain circumstances, runout in the DG shaft can aggravate an untrue or out-of-balance stone and cause the condition to get progressively worse until eventually the stone is unusable for anything except a miniature jackhammer. Interesting.

Thanks again.

radkins
12-15-2010, 11:49 AM
they're all 10-15 years old and still work fine..



That seems to be the general consensus when evaluating these cheap grinders but it really misses the point, there is a LOT more to it than just how long they last, they may last but what kind of performance do they have? It makes little difference how long they last if they perform poorly and that difference between cheap grinders and good ones in operation is no joke, I have seen this several times starting with the Snap-On tool truck owner showing the shop mechanics the differences to doing my own testing. That Snap-On dealer sure made a lot of guys dump their HF, Buffalo, etc die grinders by using that little test I mentioned about lightly touching a work piece with a burr. Makes no sense to me to put up with low power and a bouncing tool that takes twice as long to do a job all the while eating stones and burrs at an alarming rate just to save a few bucks on purchase price.

radkins
12-15-2010, 11:54 AM
Hmmm,I imagine under certain circumstances, runout in the DG shaft can aggravate an untrue or out-of-balance stone and cause the condition to get progressively worse until eventually the stone is unusable for anything except a miniature jackhammer.


It becomes even worse when you consider that the cutter, either a stone or a burr, is going to contact the work surface during only part of each revolution of an out of balance tool as opposed to full contact with a smooth running cutter. A good smooth running grinder will cut much faster because of this even if the power is the same.

lazlo
12-15-2010, 12:22 PM
That seems to be the general consensus when evaluating these cheap grinders but it really misses the point, there is a LOT more to it than just how long they last, they may last but what kind of performance do they have? It makes little difference how long they last if they perform poorly

Agree completely, hence this month's signature. But the choice of the price point/quality point is very personal (and application dependent) and people will fight to the death to defend their choice on the curve.

Seems like the most productive approach is to throw-out experiences you had with specific tools -- the rest is up to them.

JRouche
12-15-2010, 12:42 PM
I have a couple. I started out with the HF grinders. I think only one has made it for the long haul. All the rest gave up the fight.

Then I got a Husky which I think is home depot. Great grinder. Very powerful and long lasting.

Then the IR grinders came into play a few years ago. The 301 and 302 models. Pretty nice grinders. I don't see much of a diff between the two so the less expensive 301 would be a good buy.

Then recently I got a hold of some Dotco (Cooper tools) and Dynabrade grinder/sanders.

WOW!!! They are better tools. The smoothness, power and speed control. Its pretty amazing.

But the real issue is cost for many people. And with that in mind I have to say. For me, the best bang for the buck in my line-up is the Husky. I have really abused that thing for many years and it is still running strong. When I say abuse I don't mean neglect. I oil all my air tools that require it. I just mean some really aggressive use.

Its a good tool for a good price.

Tool pics......... JR

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/Jrouche/HSM/grinders.jpg


After looking at this picture I just realized I don't have many straight grinders. Hmm, that's odd. So I took a look in a different spot. Found some. It appears I prefer electric for straight grinders. Maybe for the power, dunno. For 3" cutoff wheels I use a HF router speed control to slow the speed down. JR



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/Jrouche/HSM/straightgrinders.jpg

radkins
12-15-2010, 02:07 PM
Most of the attachments you have there will work fine on a cheapo grinder since a sanding disc or cut-off wheel is not nearly so balance sensitive (within reason anyway) as a stone or burr. The problems I have been referring to have been concerning mostly use with a burr although I encountered quite a bit of frustration trying to use stones also.


BTW, I do not in any way mean to infer that you have cheap tools as your selection there is impressive, I was only pointing to the experiences I had with my own cheapo tools and the fact that I did find, and still do to some extent, a use for the things by using them for cut-off work and sanding.

gnm109
12-15-2010, 02:32 PM
If you are actually "grinding dies" then it might pay to buy only the best. If you use the typical die grinder in the usual way, grinding ports, cutting down burrs, etc., then the el-cheepo ones will do just fine.

I'd like to see a test of just how much better the expensive ones. I will assume that they are, but I have no actual tests to show.

Black_Moons
12-15-2010, 03:01 PM
JRouche: Nice collection, Think you could stick a few in a clamp and put a TDI on a shaft on a couple of em? (measure the runout, And maybe how much they deflect under a light force)

radkins
12-15-2010, 03:12 PM
Actually grinding ports and removing flashing as well as many other small grinding jobs is exactly what I have been talking about and that is were the better grinders really show their worth. Think about the difference in cutting efficiency between a burr (the burr for example) being used with a smooth running tool allowing contact with the work piece for the entire revolution and an out-of-balance tool that lets the burr wobble out of contact for part of the revolution. The difference in performance is quite noticeable plus the pounding the burr will take will destroy the teeth in a short time. I thought nothing of buying the cheap ones from HF until that Snap-On man showed us the difference between what he was selling and the cheap ones we were using, I have never considered buying another cheapo since I bought my IR and Snap-On Grinders, I do however consider the Snap-On way over priced and if I had it to do over I would not have bought it.

lazlo
12-15-2010, 03:31 PM
Wow, very nice collection JRouche! I know which tools I'm going to borrow next time. :)

I have several Dynabrades -- they're very nice. Someday, I'd like to buy a Dotco. I guess I'd better get one before they outsource (if they haven't already).

Interesting thing about Dynabrade, they have a tiered price/quality product line, all Made in USA (at least, last time I bought them). The pale green are the industrial line. Their Cadillac models. The "Spirit" line is red, and a step down in price/quality.

If you hold them side-by-side, the different is very noticeable.

oldtiffie
12-15-2010, 04:28 PM
Some might do well to read the stuff from Saint Cobain (owns Norton) abrasives regarding the types of "mounted points", their use and speed ranges etc.

http://www.nortonindustrial.com/MountedPoints.aspx

http://www.nortonindustrial.com/advsearchres.aspx?all=mounted+points&exa=&one=&out=&lan=1033&sin=&cat=&app=&doc=&cs=False&contentType=

gnm109
12-15-2010, 04:38 PM
Actually grinding ports and removing flashing as well as many other small grinding jobs is exactly what I have been talking about and that is were the better grinders really show their worth. Think about the difference in cutting efficiency between a burr (the burr for example) being used with a smooth running tool allowing contact with the work piece for the entire revolution and an out-of-balance tool that lets the burr wobble out of contact for part of the revolution. The difference in performance is quite noticeable plus the pounding the burr will take will destroy the teeth in a short time. I thought nothing of buying the cheap ones from HF until that Snap-On man showed us the difference between what he was selling and the cheap ones we were using, I have never considered buying another cheapo since I bought my IR and Snap-On Grinders, I do however consider the Snap-On way over priced and if I had it to do over I would not have bought it.


OK, so your assumption is that all other die grinders other than Snap-on have an out of balance condition with excessive runout and will wear tools quickly. Show me the data.

I've also heard rumors that Snap-on items, some of them anyway, are made off shore.....a little bird told me.

radkins
12-15-2010, 06:02 PM
OK, so your assumption is that all other die grinders other than Snap-on have an out of balance condition with excessive runout and will wear tools quickly. Show me the data.


I never said anything of the sort, so how did you come up with that? I only mentioned once that one of mine was a Snap-On and that IMO it was overpriced. :rolleyes:

All I have been saying is that cheapo HF type die grinders are notorious for run-out and gave my reasons for saying so, I have repeatedly suggested that anyone interested should try a simple test. I did this and it sure made a believer out of me, as it also did for several other fellows in the shop. Maybe you have a cheap grinder that runs smooth as silk, I have yet to see one however, or maybe yours are perfectly satisfactory for your purposes with some run-out. All I have been doing is pointing out something that a lot of people seem to overlook and that there is a lot more to selecting a grinder than just how long the thing will last, I too probably would still be using the cheap outfits if I had not seen that little demo and checked my own HF grinder. Actually I don't think it should come as any surprise to anyone that a HF or other cheap import grinder would not run as true as a high quality tool, that they would be as smooth running is what should come as a surprise if it were so. The detrimental effects of this run-out is what seems to be overlooked because it usually is not immediately obvious unless someone is looking for it, when they do some are quite surprised by what they find

gnm109
12-15-2010, 07:21 PM
I won't bother with links, I don't even link to Wiipedia much anymore. I will say that all you have to do is go to Google or Google Groups and use keywords Snap-on China. You wll find many, many of their tools are now made in China, Taiwan and India. That means that the tools that you think are "better" than the H.F. and Enco stuff are very likely made just down the road.

I chased the Snap-on truck for a year trying to buy one of their sand blasting guns. I finally caught him making a delivery to an independent Harley shop that I used to frequent. I wanted the Snap-on to replace the POS that came with my H.F. blast cabinet which was OK except for the gun. He finally agreed to sell me one as long as he could invoice it to the motorcycle shop. So, OK, I paid my friend who owned the shop when it was delivered.

It was Chinese. End of story.

oldtiffie
12-16-2010, 05:53 AM
Most "die" grinders use mounted "points" on a (usually) 1/4" or 1/8" mandrels.

Most wheels/points are aluminium oxide and need just as much "dressing" and "truing-up" as do other al-ox wheels on pedestal grinders, drill sharpeners, surface grinders, T&C grinders etc. but while all those other grinders get lots of dressing and mentions, those al-ox mounted points rarely if ever do.

The points get just a "glazed", "clogged" and "blunt" and never dressed. Its no wonder they are called "poor performers" and the die-grinder gets the blame.

Even a small and perhaps "cheap/import" grinder will perform much better if you give it a bit of assistance and less blame.

Keep those wheels dressed and at their rated speeds and you will do OK.

I hand-dress mine with "emery-sticks" which are very effective and very cheap and available at many good tool shops.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Precision_grinding/Wheelbalance14.jpg

I never use my diamond dresser for "hand" dressing.

radkins
12-16-2010, 09:43 AM
I won't bother with links, I don't even link to Wiipedia much anymore. I will say that all you have to do is go to Google or Google Groups and use keywords Snap-on China. You wll find many, many of their tools are now made in China, Taiwan and India. That means that the tools that you think are "better" than the H.F. and Enco stuff are very likely made just down the road.

I chased the Snap-on truck for a year trying to buy one of their sand blasting guns. I finally caught him making a delivery to an independent Harley shop that I used to frequent. I wanted the Snap-on to replace the POS that came with my H.F. blast cabinet which was OK except for the gun. He finally agreed to sell me one as long as he could invoice it to the motorcycle shop. So, OK, I paid my friend who owned the shop when it was delivered.

It was Chinese. End of story.



So will you get off the SnapOn nonsense! I was not talking about Snap-On or any other particular brand except to say that one of mine is a Snap-On, Snap-On quality or where it is made has absolutely nothing to do with run-out on the cheap HF type die grinders and the problems it causes.

airsmith282
12-16-2010, 09:50 AM
i have both samona and CH die grinders and both are great , what you need for these things is lots of CFM but they do seem fine on my 8 gallon compressor just gota stop here and there let the tank catch up..

the IR stuff is also great stuff one of the best out there but dam expensive...

radkins
12-16-2010, 10:00 AM
oldtiffie, you are certainly right about that and had I pointed out in an earlier post that stones would benefit greatly from a light dressing and that dressing them before use would largely negate any unbalance condition of a tool, however as you have pointed out dressing the stone prior to use should be standard procedure even with a smooth running tool. I mostly use carbide burrs so any unbalance condition is very detrimental to both performance and cutter life, dressing of course is not an option with a burr. The type of run-out I have been talking about is usually quite subtle and will hardly be noticeable on some tools but an honest comparison over a few hours use, not just a 30 second test, will almost always reveal a problem with the cheaper tool.


As an added note cheap carbide burrs are worse in this respect than a cheap grinder, they almost never run true in any tool. because of this they dull quickly and the teeth chip (probably would soon dull anyway due to poor quality carbide). I learned real quick about buying "bargain" burrs off E-bay, I never got a single one I could use at a bargain price. I do however buy SGS burrs off E-bay sometimes but I have yet to save any money by doing so, even if auctioned and not "buy-it-now" they almost always go for a high price.

Several good brands of burrs out there and I am NOT saying SGS is the only one that is any good!

gnm109
12-16-2010, 10:49 AM
So will you get off the SnapOn nonsense! I was not talking about Snap-On or any other particular brand except to say that one of mine is a Snap-On, Snap-On quality or where it is made has absolutely nothing to do with run-out on the cheap HF type die grinders and the problems it causes.


No I won't. I'm rather sick of even hearing about Snap-on this and Snap-on that. I've got lots of Snap-on tools. The old ones are great. The new ones are Chinese.

Your Snap-on die grinder is not one bit better than the other ones avaliable on the market. There simple no way to prove that it's better anyway. We can agree to disagree.

radkins
12-16-2010, 11:21 AM
No I won't. I'm rather sick of even hearing about Snap-on this and Snap-on that. I've got lots of Snap-on tools. The old ones are great. The new ones are Chinese.

Your Snap-on die grinder is not one bit better than the other ones avaliable on the market. There simple no way to prove that it's better anyway. We can agree to disagree.



What the dickens is wrong with you? For the last time this is not about Snap-On or Snap-On quality, I couldn't care less about Snap-On! I just mentioned that I had a Snap-On grinder and never even commented on it's quality other than to say it was not worth what I paid for it so what is your problem? As far as the Snap-On tool truck driver, he had more than one brand of grinder and his demo was to show what we were getting for our money with the cheap outfits. If you want to complain about something someone posted then go find something that actually was posted. :rolleyes:

gnm109
12-16-2010, 11:45 AM
That seems to be the general consensus when evaluating these cheap grinders but it really misses the point, there is a LOT more to it than just how long they last, they may last but what kind of performance do they have? It makes little difference how long they last if they perform poorly and that difference between cheap grinders and good ones in operation is no joke, I have seen this several times starting with the Snap-On tool truck owner showing the shop mechanics the differences to doing my own testing. That Snap-On dealer sure made a lot of guys dump their HF, Buffalo, etc die grinders by using that little test I mentioned about lightly touching a work piece with a burr. Makes no sense to me to put up with low power and a bouncing tool that takes twice as long to do a job all the while eating stones and burrs at an alarming rate just to save a few bucks on purchase price.


You're the one that brought up Snap on. The truck driver did a test for you that made you feel like his stuff was better than the other stuff. From that you deduced that the cheap HF and other DG's are no good and will bounce.

You are telling us that we are all stupid and will put up with bouncing die grinders. It's like you are trying to teach granny how to suck eggs. You have no evidence that all brands other than IR and whatever are better.

It's all a bunch of nonsense supported by hype and guesses. But I mean that in a nice way.

:)

radkins
12-16-2010, 12:05 PM
You know very well that Snap-On is not the issue here and it was the simple test that a dealer (who just happened to be a Snap-On dealer) showed us that was the entire point, it made no difference what-so-ever what dealer it was since I never said ANYTHING about Snap-On quality except to say (once again so listen closely as you seem to have a hard time understanding anything) that the one I have was IMO not worth what I paid for it, I never said squat in support of Snap-On tools in particular and you know it. You are making no sense at all but if you want to continue to babble on ridiculously about a non-issue that's your problem so have at it.

oldtiffie
12-16-2010, 03:37 PM
Meanwhile.

Back to practicality and reality.

I find that I have much better control of a "die" grinder - particularly 1/4" - if I grip the grinder as near as I can to the cutting wheel but more importantly that I only "down" mill and do not "climb mill".

There are times when "climbing" is unavoidable but it is harder to control and can "get away" and start to "bounce" which tends to unbalance the wheel and to "clog" and "glaze" it at which point the wheel has to be replaced and/or re-dressed.

I use aluminium oxide and (a type of) CBN wheels as well as carbide and tungsten carbide "tips".

I will post some pics later.

lbhsbz
12-16-2010, 03:54 PM
I wait until the HF ones go on sale for under $10 or so and I go buy 10 of 'em. I've had 2 lock up within about 1 minute of use, but the rest are still going strong. I think the oldest air tool I own is a cutoff tool from HF...purchased almost 17 years ago, and still going strong. I've bought the good stuff too....snap on, mac, matco....they've all failed. I don't think it really maters. Buy the cheap ones and grab another when they quit.

RussZHC
12-16-2010, 04:40 PM
Interesting thread...JR's pics (post # 32) and the side tracking of an internet search (finding Bosch, Metabo, and Makita discussions elsewhere) have me wondering...

the appearance of many electric die grinders look as though the companies are using the body of an angle grinder and then fitting a different "nose piece" to it...is this likely?

I ask since there are several Bosch models including the one in JR's pic and that particular one looks very, very much like the body of their "Colt" trim router
http://www.boschtools.com/Products/Tools/Pages/BoschProductDetail.aspx?pid=PR20EVSNK

which is "easy" for me to get as opposed to the GGS27L(C) I found mention of on Australian pages...variable speed (16000 to 35000), soft start etc.

Any reason(s) I should not consider this v. a "true" die grinder?

radkins
12-16-2010, 05:23 PM
Since the body of both the angle grinder and die grinder are really just motors they only need to change the gearbox design and gearing to change speeds to create the different tools, thus the difference between them need only be the gearbox.

Black_Moons
12-16-2010, 09:44 PM
Funny you should mention that, I bought a router at princess auto..
It advertises you can remove it from the base and use it as a variable speed electric die grinder ;)

I never have used it as such however, because the body is just barly small enough to fit uncomferabley in a hand.

lazlo
12-17-2010, 10:41 AM
Interesting thread...JR's pics (post # 32) and the side tracking of an internet search (finding Bosch, Metabo, and Makita discussions elsewhere) have me wondering...

There seems to be a perception with some here that everything made in China is the same quality. So if you find a name-brand tool that's made in China, you might as well go for the $13 cheapie at Harbor Freight.

As many of us have experienced, there's a vast spectrum of quality coming from China. But like anywhere else in the world, quality costs.

Almost all of Apples' products, including the iPhones, iPads, and MacBooks, are made in China. But they're made in high-end, modern factories, with well-paid, and happy workers (judging from the unauthorized pictures and videos that are posted all over the web). Ditto for the Mattel factories.

I would imagine that most name-brand factories in mainland China are similar.

Then you have the knock-off shops staffed by minimum wage migrant peasants.

Sir John and Mariss (from Gecko) have described this system as "tiered" quality, where the buyer specs the quality level they want, and the Chinese distributor bids a corresponding price.

That would explain the variation in quality between Harbor Freight, Grizzly, Enco and MSC no-name brands, Enco and MSC house brands (SPI et al), and the name-brand Chinese imports (Fowler, and the Chinese tools from Brown & Sharp and Starret).

gnm109
12-17-2010, 11:28 AM
There seems to be a perception with some here that everything made in China is the same quality. So if you find a name-brand tool that's made in China, you might as well go for the $13 cheapie at Harbor Freight.

As many of us have experienced, there's a vast spectrum of quality coming from China. But like anywhere else in the world, quality costs.

Almost all of Apples' products, including the iPhones, iPads, and MacBooks, are made in China. But they're made in high-end, modern factories, with well-paid, and happy workers (judging from the unauthorized pictures and videos that are posted all over the web). Ditto for the Mattel factories.

I would imagine that most name-brand factories in mainland China are similar.

Then you have the knock-off shops staffed by minimum wage migrant peasants.

Sir John and Mariss (from Gecko) have described this system as "tiered" quality, where the buyer specs the quality level they want, and the Chinese distributor bids a corresponding price.

That would explain the variation in quality between Harbor Freight, Grizzly, Enco and MSC no-name brands, Enco and MSC house brands (SPI et al), and the name-brand Chinese imports (Fowler, and the Chinese tools from Brown & Sharp and Starret).


I totally agree. I've seen the wide variation of quality myself. Without mentioning and particular sellers, the difference is especially noticeable between really low-end ROC lathes and mills and similar models coming from Taiwan.

A wise buyer, however, can learn to pick and choose among the items after a while.

radkins
12-17-2010, 11:39 AM
Agreed and it really is just unrealistic to expect the same quality from a $10 tool as opposed to it's $100 counterpart just because they are both made in China. Small hand power tools such as we have been discussing here are a prime example of exactly what you are talking about and quality differences are readily apparent even if both are of Chinese origin so it's just as unrealistic to say that the expensive Chinese tool is just as poor quality as the cheap one based on country of origin.

Even if the upper-end Chinese tools are better than the HF variety it seems to me that an even higher standard is to be found in similar tools from other countries with higher quality standards, German made tools for example seem to be noticeably better than the best Chinese imports, I may be wrong about that but it sure looks that way to me.

oldtiffie
12-17-2010, 04:02 PM
Interesting thread...JR's pics (post # 32) and the side tracking of an internet search (finding Bosch, Metabo, and Makita discussions elsewhere) have me wondering...

the appearance of many electric die grinders look as though the companies are using the body of an angle grinder and then fitting a different "nose piece" to it...is this likely?

I ask since there are several Bosch models including the one in JR's pic and that particular one looks very, very much like the body of their "Colt" trim router
http://www.boschtools.com/Products/Tools/Pages/BoschProductDetail.aspx?pid=PR20EVSNK

which is "easy" for me to get as opposed to the GGS27L(C) I found mention of on Australian pages...variable speed (16000 to 35000), soft start etc.

Any reason(s) I should not consider this v. a "true" die grinder?

Russ,

I have one of those:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Med_Speed_Spindles/Bosch_HS_grinder1.jpg

as I posted at post #17 in this thread at:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=619028&postcount=17

That "soft start" is a very nice feature, but as the body of the grinder is round, having 600W (~ 0.8 HP) with a "jerk" start might take some holding on to!!

The collets are excellent. The most run-it I could find was just less than 0.01mm (~0.0004") and the others hardly registered.

It is very well made, well balanced and considering what it is made for is very smooth.

We have full "Bosch" support here in OZ. I've used it before and it is one of the reasons I bought it. Same applies to my Proxxon and Metabo tools.

I regard the machine as an excellent die grinder.

Mine is also intended as a tool-post grinder for my universal grinder.

These are quality machines and they are expensive but in my opinion are well worth the cost.

The "for cheap" brigade had better look else-where.

Krunch
12-29-2010, 07:06 AM
<snip>
I hand-dress mine with "emery-sticks" which are very effective and very cheap and available at many good tool shops.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Precision_grinding/Wheelbalance14.jpg

I never use my diamond dresser for "hand" dressing.

Oldtiffie,

Do you know whether there's another name for those wheel dressing blocks?

I Googled "emery stick" but all I found were sandpaper-on-a-stick things for dressing fingernails.

I'd like to buy a couple of the things in your picture, but I can't seem to figure out what they're called in the USA. Can anyone give me a clue?

Thanks again.

Ken_Shea
12-29-2010, 07:12 AM
Called dressing stones Krunch.

John Stevenson
12-29-2010, 07:30 AM
I have a couple. I started out with the HF grinders. I think only one has made it for the long haul. All the rest gave up the fight.

Then I got a Husky which I think is home depot. Great grinder. Very powerful and long lasting.

Then the IR grinders came into play a few years ago. The 301 and 302 models. Pretty nice grinders. I don't see much of a diff between the two so the less expensive 301 would be a good buy.

Then recently I got a hold of some Dotco (Cooper tools) and Dynabrade grinder/sanders.

WOW!!! They are better tools. The smoothness, power and speed control. Its pretty amazing.

But the real issue is cost for many people. And with that in mind I have to say. For me, the best bang for the buck in my line-up is the Husky. I have really abused that thing for many years and it is still running strong. When I say abuse I don't mean neglect. I oil all my air tools that require it. I just mean some really aggressive use.

Its a good tool for a good price.

Tool pics......... JR

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/Jrouche/HSM/grinders.jpg


After looking at this picture I just realized I don't have many straight grinders. Hmm, that's odd. So I took a look in a different spot. Found some. It appears I prefer electric for straight grinders. Maybe for the power, dunno. For 3" cutoff wheels I use a HF router speed control to slow the speed down. JR



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/Jrouche/HSM/straightgrinders.jpg

Wow tools that are actually used.

I know who's experience is worth considering against posed photo's..............

luthor
12-29-2010, 07:39 AM
Wow tools that are actually used.

I know who's experience is worth considering against posed photo's..............


Is this the second snipe on the same person I have seen in recent days?????

gda
12-29-2010, 07:45 AM
I have a couple of Campbell Hausfelds, and an Astro Pneumatic right angle. They work fine enough for what I use them for, deburring and with the ro-loc grinding and surface prep discs.

If I used them heavily I would switch to electric - cheaper to run than having my air compressor running non stop.

Sophiedoc
12-29-2010, 09:54 AM
There is a condition called Vibration syndrome getting more attention causing symptoms in some folks of tingling and numbness particularly in the hands called paresthesias in medical parlance.This seems to be a problem worse in some who are susceptible such as noise injury to the ears etc.This would suggest when you must use vibrating equipment use one which vibrates least.(I don't know the frequency that is most harmful to nerves and blood vessels at this time).Also may not show up till age takes its toll on blood vessels etc.