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Jim Caudill
12-16-2010, 10:00 PM
Ok, based on what I remember about physics, the greater weight you have over a set of tires - the greater the frictional force: weight x coefficient of friction = frictional force.

However, the greater the weight, the harder it will be to accelerate. I mean that it terms of a "change in speed" or "change in direction".

So, given a fixed coefficient of friction (keeping the same tires on the wife's car). How would you know when to add bags of water-softener salt to the trunk, and when to stop.

Intuitively, there has to be a "crossover point" beyond which the added weight hurts rather than helps, in terms of stopping and cornering.

I'm sure this stuff has already been worked out before, I'm just not familiar with who or where.

Any thoughts?

darryl
12-16-2010, 10:24 PM
One person in the back seat can make a noticeable difference. I'd say one to two hundred pounds in the trunk would be about right. Two hundred might be on the high side of optimum.

Depends what it is also. If it's bricks, it's pretty useless for anything else. If much of it is sand, chains, maybe a spare battery that is hooked up parallel with the main battery, shovels, some spare antifreeze and windshield washer fluid, a small sealed pail of de-icing salt, flares, and an easy-find flashlight-

Willy
12-16-2010, 10:32 PM
As in anything there's no free lunch.
It's a trade off between traction and agility.

I've recently retired after forty years of driving truck under some of the most inhospitable road and weather conditions you can think of and given a choice I will take a heavily loaded truck and trailer any day vs. a light one if I have to drive through a snow storm. Much better traction and stability, especially when going through deep snow and or slush. But once the weather clears the light unit is much easier to handle, almost like driving a pickup in comparison.

Ultimately you should base the decision of how much weight to add on the cars ability to carry the extra weight, the type of weather you'll being driving in most of the time, and the drivers ability to be able to compensate for the decreased agility of the car.
A set of top notch winter tires, (Blizzaks come to mind) will also make a huge difference.

Also if one has the option, sometimes it's just wiser to stay home. It's amazing how much difference a day makes. The difference between heaven and hell come to mind.:)

2ManyHobbies
12-16-2010, 10:34 PM
What darryl said plus a floor jack and a way to keep it from wandering about.

Hopefully you've already covered it, but I'll ask just in case. How are the shocks on the car? That will make a big difference too.

Jim Caudill
12-16-2010, 11:02 PM
The car is a very low mileage 2008 Nissan Versa. I'm thinking the tires need to be swapped out (only 27k miles) for something that is more "all weather". We used to have a couple of Miata's, and we used Bridgestone Blizzaks on them - HUGE difference! On the Miata, we had steel wheels with the snow tires, and I just swapped them out. I don't think I want to go that route with this car; I'm thinking more along the lines of some good "all weather" tires. I'm sure the OEM tires were selected for gas mileage and cost rather than any kind of performance parameters. For the immediate future, I'm thinking of throwing (3) 40lb bags of water softener salt in the trunk (since we need some anyway) and see how it performs.

I used to have a 1995 F-350 dually that was absolutely worthless on snow, unless you had a 1,000lbs or so in the back. I'm sure I had around 3,000lbs in it on a return trip from Connecticut one time (Hardinge lathe, surface grinder, IR 80gal air compressor, and a few other goodies).

tdkkart
12-16-2010, 11:42 PM
Throw 600lbs in the trunk and add 5 or 10 lbs of rear tire pressure to gain back the change in rolling resistance.

Careful though, adding weight behind the front to rear center of gravity tends to make the ass end act like a pendulum. Takes a bit to get it started, but once it starts going sideways there's no stopping it.

beanbag
12-16-2010, 11:43 PM
The car is a very low mileage 2008 Nissan Versa.


Wait... That's a FWD car. If you add weight in the trunk that is behind the axle, you will take weight off the front wheels. When front wheels cars want to drag race (ultimate oxymoron) they take weight off the back of the car. I think the only handling benefit to adding weight to the trunk is less mid turn and exit understeer.

In my FWD econobox, ummm, I mean "sports coupe", I have relocated the battery into the trunk, and now the car handles like a Porsche!

Jim Caudill
12-16-2010, 11:57 PM
Beanbag, I think you are absolutely correct. Putting weight behind the rear axle would tend to make the front "lighter". Oh well, I guess the tires are going to have to be the immediate solution, as opposed to the "delayed solution".

bob_s
12-17-2010, 01:14 AM
The greatest benefit to traction is the reduction of the weight of the foot on the accelerator!

Bill736
12-17-2010, 01:20 AM
You haven't positively identified what problem you're trying to solve, or why you want more traction on the driving wheels, or under what conditions. If, however, you have a front wheel drive vehicle, I would leave it alone. Your traction and control on snow is already very good, and adding unnecessary weight anywhere to the car is not likely to improve anything, and may adversely affect braking , fuel consumption, and handling. Some tires are better than others in slippery winter conditions or on wet roads, and a publication like Consumer Reports is a good source for comparative tire information. If, however, you have a rear wheel drive pickup truck and need better winter traction, have your fat, big mouthed mother-in-law sit in the back of the bed. (Oh, I'm sorry; that was MY mother-in-law. )

Evan
12-17-2010, 01:20 AM
Adding weight doesn't help on ice anyway. Tires are THE solution, not a temporary "make do".

Bruce Griffing
12-17-2010, 01:23 AM
Get a trunk monkey.

http://www.trunkmonkey.com/2005/01/18/trunk-monkey-4-thrown-off-a-bridge-suburban-auto-group/

Bill736
12-17-2010, 01:40 AM
Weight on the driving wheels is certainly important in mud, snow, and packed snow. When it turns to glare ice, however, you need studded tires, or you may not even move an inch. I use my farm tractor for plowing snow in the winter, but ice is a problem. I put studs in my 12.4 x 28 inch Ferguson TO-35 tractor tires by installing about 50 sheetmetal screws in the tire lugs, per tire. The screws had a sharp raised hex, and did wonders for my traction on ice. Over about 5 years time, several of the screws disappeared and had to be replaced, but they never did any damage to the tires. Studs on highway tires are another matter, since they are illegal in many places.

Evan
12-17-2010, 06:22 AM
In conditions where you can't even stand up then you need claw chains like I have for my Land Rover. Sometimes this is how our driveway looks.

http://ixian.ca/pics7/driveway1.jpg

http://ixian.ca/pics7/driveway.jpg

airsmith282
12-17-2010, 06:47 AM
personly from experence as well as what have seen over the years adding weight is a joke, and its aslo more dangerouse as the added weight when you do spin out excellerates your spin more which in turn also causes more damage, if a trasport weighin up over 80,000 pounds can still spin out on ice or snow and then how the hell do you expect to solve this in a car, sorry but physics is a joke on this one , and totaly incorrect you might gain a tiny bit of traction but the end result is the same you can still lose control and when you do the affects are muiltiplyed many times worse then not having the extra weight, same as lowering tire pressure it auctuly is a false to, lowering below reguall tire pressure cause the tires centre to buckle under hence losing traction not to mention the damage and premature ware you cause to your car/truck/suv as you go over bumps..

ikdor
12-17-2010, 07:46 AM
If you normally have wide tires under your car, think about getting narrower wheels for your winter tyres. This will also help traction on snow quite a bit.

Igor

Arcane
12-17-2010, 08:46 AM
One thing that doesn't seem to be common knowledge is what end to have the best traction tires on with FWD cars. I see so many people putting their best ones on the front and thinking they can run anything on the back but in that situation, having the higher traction tires on the front usually means the back end will break loose first in situations where traction is at a minimum and especially if/when you are on a curve. Applying the brakes just slightly or even just backing off on the accelerator can be enough to set you into a spin. Over the years, I've seen it many times. Myself...I drive a 4X4 with studded winter tires. :D

airsmith282
12-17-2010, 08:52 AM
If you normally have wide tires under your car, think about getting narrower wheels for your winter tyres. This will also help traction on snow quite a bit.

Igor

auctualy this year i have narrower tires on the car as was reccommed by the shop and find i have less control over my car, my regular tire size is 195 60r 15 i now have 185 65r 15 and i have less traction and less control over all. so next theroy you got, which would mean that the taller size by only 5 MM is throwing off the centre of gravity of the car asis the 5MM narrower tires are also throwing of the roll factor in turns thus lose of control as well in turns..

now to back up my theroy with the 195 60r 15s that the car was made for and the model of car and its suspension components, etc, the 195 60r 15s had great control good stopping ability even when half worne out,in all weather conditions, i will also add i do not use winter tires at all i use allseasons only, as winter tires have only been proven to provide no more then 25% better stoping power only, the also ware out fast to incompareson to all seasons...

Willy
12-17-2010, 10:43 AM
.....if a trasport weighin up over 80,000 pounds can still spin out on ice or snow and then how the hell do you expect to solve this in a car, sorry but physics is a joke on this one , and totaly incorrect you might gain a tiny bit of traction....


Everything has a limit. Of that 80,000 lbs. often times a very large percentage is not on the drivers, it's kind of like dragging a piano around, that trailer takes a lot of torque to move. I have parked on compact snow many times when loaded, the tires are warm and create small depressions underneath them, perhaps only a 1/2" deep, an hour later I'm unloaded and stuck in the little divots, even with the power divider on and both axles locked! I have had two guys with good boots and a rope pull me out.! Of course 20,000 over the drivers would have made all the difference too. But you say no.



....same as lowering tire pressure it auctuly is a false to, lowering below reguall tire pressure cause the tires centre to buckle under hence losing traction...


Actually it does work, very well I might add. Every second logging truck, and most new ones are equipped with central tire inflation systems where the driver can optimize tire pressures for on and off road. Most military vehicles also utilize this system....it works very well indeed.



....auctualy this year i have narrower tires on the car as was reccommed by the shop and find i have less control over my car....


As I stated in my first reply to this thread, everything is a compromise, there's no free lunch. You want good handling and braking in dry weather get a good summer tire, but don't expect to be impressed in the winter with these same tires. Same goes for your winter tires, I'll bet if you ran them back to back with your summer tires under the same conditions you would see the difference. It's a trade-off don't expect one tire to be the bright star under all conditions.
Much like tire chains are a great no compromise solution for driving on ice, but they don't handle worth sh!t on dry pavement!

airsmith282
12-17-2010, 01:19 PM
under inflating causes damge to the tires and can also cause damage to the car or truck as well like rim damage and so on, ever seen what an under inflated tire looks like the centre area buckles up leaving only the outside tread pretty usless there, also anyone that only puts on 2 winter tires is asking for problems, you need all 4 the same and the same sizes as well, all season tires are just that all season and i know there not the best in the winter but if the tread is good on all 4 and they ware evenly and are the right size for the car you will have better performance and control alsomaking sure the tire pressure is blanaced in all 4 tires to helps alot and that your suspension is also in good shape all around to and still balanced, your preaching to the choire,studded tires to me are usless and dangerouse as well. thats already been proven, they are effective only in certion weather conditions only, chains are good for transports on icy roads and roads that are badley snow covered, but all the wieght in the world is still not a soloution to traction, which is a large part of my point, weight = more trouble, uninflated = trouble to, using only 2 winters and 2 all seaons yup more trouble, in all ther is no real soloution here at all that is the best, other then , make sur eyour car or truck is in good shape,proper tires weather they are all season or winters, dont matter one bit, drive slower then posted speed limints and also drive according to road conditons and your likely not going to have any problems at all , alot of people think that they donthave to change their driving habbits in winter weather when infact they do , then when they get into a problem they dont take any blame on them selfs at all. its eaiser to blame the jack ass infornt of you, i was out the other day all brand new tires yes all seasons, i was doing 20k under the limint and i still managed to lose control a bit but got lucky the car stopped just in time, i hit ice i could not see,and the light changed at just the wornge time, sure i could have blamed the tires but no i blamed my self , ,but at atleast no damage done so next time ill start braking sooner, and ill not have that problem ever again..

The Artful Bodger
12-17-2010, 01:29 PM
Actually, for mountain driving with a RWD we used to put the chains ON THE FRONT! That was so the vehicle could be kept under control going down hill.

I have no idea if the chains on the front breaking the ice surface helped the rear wheels get traction, maybe they did as these were gravel roads.

This is the road I am talking about:-

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_BfvyeXPx_nU/R3rNv_pS7WI/AAAAAAAAAiI/jA8lLeNR6Wk/s576/IMG_2129.JPG

(Bonus points for identifying the aircraft)

ikdor
12-17-2010, 01:45 PM
auctualy this year i have narrower tires on the car as was reccommed by the shop and find i have less control over my car, my regular tire size is 195 60r 15 i now have 185 65r 15 and i have less traction and less control over all.

Well, your change was a bit small to make a pronounced difference on snow. If you don't get a wheel with the correct offset (as it should be different to your summer wheel) then you'll also change your scrub radius and the suspension geometry will be all messed up. Your experience might be due to this. (it also shortens bearing life, but that'll take much longer to notice)

What I was referring to is that if you have 225 tires on your car you'll have more trouble with fresh snow than if you have 185 on it. That's just physics.

It's interesting to look at the tires that rally teams use on snow (not the studded ones) and compare them to the width of their tarmac variants.

Igor

aostling
12-17-2010, 02:06 PM
This is the road I am talking about:-


That road disappears. Into the Homer Tunnel, I'd guess.

I'm reminded that on my XL250 I mounted a knobby on the front wheel only, for the same reason you did with your vehicle, i.e. going down Wainuiomata fire roads and grassy pastures around Wellington. A trials tread in the rear, slightly deflated, was adequate for going up, and the knobby prevented many spills coming down. A knobby on the rear would have worn down too fast on the long highway miles I put on that bike.

George Bulliss
12-17-2010, 02:07 PM
(Bonus points for identifying the aircraft)


Twin Otter?

Edited to add a better (I think) guess, a Britten Norman Islander.

justanengineer
12-17-2010, 03:53 PM
I found after 4 1/2 years in the army in alaska that the best way to add traction is to learn to use a clutch and "feel" the vehicle. My old S10 2wd is about the worst possible vehicle in any condition but having grown up with farm tractors that had hand throttles I can use a clutch a bit better than most and in 10 yrs have gotten stuck twice. I dont see a need to carry unnecessary weight, but thats just me.

Rich Carlstedt
12-17-2010, 04:05 PM
My brother-in-law, was a test driver for equipment /tires on ice.
His company developed anti-lock brakes which are common today
He did all kinds of ice tests for years on frozen lakes and snow packs, but I cannot now ask him this question as he has passed-on.
I do know his comments about traction/slippage and weight which I will try to relate here.

Rule #1 (This was his strongest point and really a manditory law )
Tire traction can only provide three things:
steering, acceleration, and braking.
Total available friction,traction,adhesion (what ever you want to call it it) is a function of 100 % AT ANY GIVEN TIME.
examples:
With 100 % traction, you can use 60 percent of it for acceleration and that ONLY leaves 40 % for steering.
If braking is 95 %, steering is only 5 %
Anything over 100 % (available) is slippage
To see this in action, lets say you hit the brakes hard and use 90 % of traction, then you try to steer. If your steering is 5 % you are OK, but if you need 20 % , you are in trouble and will skid. This can be seen easily at high speed, when inertia is greater and therefore, turning becomes a greater load for steering with the same angle of the wheel.
The amount/level of traction in the 100 % number , is a function at all times of conditions and equipment
Rule #2, refer to rule # 1

While the greatest challenge for anti-lock brakes was "Duel Coefficient Surfaces" there are some fundimental understandings of surfaces in general that can be made.
When you skid on snow or ice, you are really sliding on water most of the time.
This is because the weight of the vehicle liquifies the ice or snow and it becomes a boundry layer of water.
Water has a very low coefficient of friction compared to other solids
Tires have different coefficients based on wear, tread design, rubber composition, dry, damp, and wet surfaces. All this is also a function of contact area or tire surface density as well . if the density is greater than the surfaces' co-efficient needed, you have excess weight, so adding surface area increases traction available ( think of why they use "slicks" on dragsters!).
To increase area, letting air out of the tires is a viable solution. While the tires can buckle as pointed out earlier, there is a sizable lengthening of the contact area that more than makes up for the loss in the middle. ( decreased density !)
When a tire skids on ice, it is melting the ice from pressure and the ice becomes water, hence the skid. But if the tire surface density is high, and the ice thin enough, the tire melts through the ice and is in contact with a "wet" concrete of asphalt road which gives it better traction (in most cases) .
Hydroplanning ( when a tire is lifted by the water) is a sign/result of low density.

What does all of this mean ?

It means increasing tire density ( adding sandbags ie) is good if it will increase the traction. Traction is increased on dry roads or wet roads and in some (see above) ice conditions . Don't forget now, adding sandbags increases surface density AND surface area (!) for increased traction.
However its use of the 100 % rule may consumes more of the 100% due to inertia then you have gained.

What about Snow?

Snow has all forms: dust, hardpack , loose, caked etc.
Each has a different set of conditions . Snow that will pack gives added traction to chains, snow tires or select treads, while loose snow does little.
Whats underneath the snow applies as well.

In short, there is no simple answer.

Truck drivers know that by changing inflation, they effect immediate change in driving conditions.

I would say (my opinion) if you drive in snow pack, use weight.
If you drive on ice, minimise your weight.
In either case, the greatest and safest approach is good tires, as they safely add to all concerns without weight.
I have 200 pounds of sand that I keep in my F 150 and drive it when there is lots of snow which is common here in Green Bay. When its icey, we use my wifes car (no weight) as a safer approach

This is a huge subject guys. My brother-in-law could talk for hours without repeating himself when talking about snow ice and driving.

You want cannon fodder ? think of the 100 % rule, and front drive versus rear drive !

Whats worse, is that when you are sliding, if you have an automatic transmission, the engine is still trying to propell the vehicle (acceleration) while you are trying to brake..try shifting into neutral in a slide and you will see the difference in utilization of the 100 % rule
I am out of here ...
Rich

brian Rupnow
12-17-2010, 05:16 PM
Get out the duct tape----Tape a fat girl to the hood!!!

Jim Caudill
12-17-2010, 06:07 PM
Yeah, I thought of that, but they're so hard to see around (ducking for cover)

The Artful Bodger
12-17-2010, 06:32 PM
That road disappears. Into the Homer Tunnel, I'd guess.

.

Thats right Allan, the tunnel entrance is just close to that patch of snow/ice.

We would stop in the tunnel portal and put the chains on the front then take it very carefully down those zig zags with the deep drop offs!

The Artful Bodger
12-17-2010, 06:33 PM
Twin Otter?

Edited to add a better (I think) guess, a Britten Norman Islander.

Yes George, I am sure it is a BN2A.

Evan
12-17-2010, 07:26 PM
The best thing to do for winter driving is to get 4 wheel drive. It greatly improves acceleration, braking and general handling. The difference is enormous. Add some sticky tires and traction control as well as a continuously variable auto transmission with 6 speed manual up/down shifting and even glare ice feels like dry pavement. That is what my wife's new Jeep Patriot has and it is remarkable. It also has skid control that gives the vehicle precisely neutral handling when it breaks loose which really takes a concerted effort even on icy roads. I have driven it to town a few times recently and the biggest problem is trying to avoid scaring other drivers who are convinced you aren't going to stop in time or will not make the turn and cross into their lane.

Racebrewer
12-17-2010, 09:34 PM
Hi Jim,

I've been driving in Northern NY, near the Canadian Border, for the last 40 years. Trucks, vans, rwd cars.... Front wheel drive small cars for the last 17 years. Nissans, Hondas, Acuras and now a Mazda 2.

Best thing you can do is 4 new winter tires mounted on their own rims. Check the Tire Rack reviews for the tires that are biased for either snow or ice. I worry way more about the ice.

Check local junque yards or dealers for deals on take-off rims. You can often buy half-way decent mag wheels (Rota's for example) cheaper than OEM steel wheels.

Fly low,
John

vpt
12-17-2010, 09:54 PM
I had a hole story this morning writen up on traction and my internet took a crap.

It was about 3200-3800 pounds being optimum weight for traction on pretty much all surfaces.

Also about adding weight to any vehicle. You would need to take the vehicle out to a snow covered parking lot or what have you and push the car past its limits at a minimum of 25 mph. Most vehicles the rear end will kickout on you. To make the vehicle optimum weight wise you would add weight in this situation to the rear untill the vehicle goes into a 4 wheel slide in a corner.

But the most important thing I had all typed out was the best winter climate upgrade you can do for any vehicle. Snow tires! Nice new snow tires will make 100% improvement. I have an extra set set of wheels with snow tires mounted up that I just swap on after the first snow of the year. I have ran this set of winter I-pikes for 3 winters now and they are still like new. I would recommend winter/snow tires to anyone any time.

spope14
12-17-2010, 10:08 PM
About adding tire pressure, I went nitrogen filled tires a few years back and tire pressure varies little between hot and cold conditions. Automobile tire pressure is set to maintain the best "footprint" for handling conditions of the tire.

In our Northern New England winters, I also noticed a lot less initial out of balance or flat spotting (whamming I call it) when I start off on a well below zero morning.

For a front wheel drive car, don't mess with too much weight in the back, like mentioned, normal survival winter gear should do it.

Willy
12-17-2010, 10:24 PM
The best thing to do for winter driving is to get 4 wheel drive. It greatly improves acceleration, braking and general handling. The difference is enormous.....

I agree, 4 wheel drive is absolutely amazing, especially in conjunction with an excellent set of winter tires and traction control.

But unfortunately for the general public it seems to be a confidence booster that they rely on rather than skill. The general public doesn't put a lot of miles on in adverse weather conditions. When these individuals get behind the wheel of an all wheel drive vehicle during unfavorable weather conditions all they seem to remember is how confidently their vehicle climbed up Uncle Bob's steep driveway. They are lulled into a sense of confidence which far exceeds not only their ability to cope with situations brought on by existing road conditions, but they also exceed the design limitations of their vehicles.

While whizzing down the highway they seem to have a cavalier regard for the laws of physics and soon find themselves on their lid wondering "what happened", while negotiating a curve at 20 mph above the posted speed limit.

After having spent the last 15 winters maintaining the highways of British Columbia I can honestly say that whenever I saw a vehicle in the ditch during a snow storm, odds were that it was a 4x4, it almost got to be a joke for those involved in the industry.

No all wheel drive is blessing, but only when it is tempered with the ability to drive responsibly in the first place. Unfortunately for the public at large it is just another crutch for poor driving skills.

airsmith282
12-18-2010, 12:30 AM
4 wheel drive is cool, but it is exppensive to maintain and does tend to screw up alot, not to mention your gas miliage takes a big dump,so not very good for miliage , front wheel drive cars tend to have one large problem and thats the snow plow effect. so ya dont add weight to a front wheel drive car not a good plan, also adding air is not a good idea to try and get traction you get less, and you ware out the cente treads really fast to been there done that..
i miss my 84 fith ave it was a good car in the snow and was rear wheel drive even with all seasons was pretty good in the winter, and yes it is true tire brand and tread design also does make a difference , iam using Falkens for the first time and so far iam not impressed and the tread is almost idenctial to the BF good crap tires that were on it and they we also all season and where great in the winter, where part of my problem seems to be rightnow is these new tires are 185 65 r 15 and my car calls for 195 60 r 15, the guy told me the narrower tire is better for winter, but said **** aboout it being taller, 5 mm does throw of the centre of gravity but how do you win the arguement witiha guy who has sold tires for over 30 years, the 5mm taller does screw with the speedometer alot, i noticed that right away,other then the lack of control the car is having that it didnt have with the bf good crap tires. this sort of topic can go on forver and there are way to many views.

so to make it simple, if you get some extra tracton adding weight then thats fine just be aware of this simple fact when yout car breaks lose on you your going to have a much worse spin out then you would have had without the added weight,

winter tires are only been proven to provied 25% better stopping power and thats about it, now thats statisacs . want to aruge argue with the experts that put out the info..

winter tires also ware out faster then allseasons..

winter tires are also only good on the surface they are intended for and thats it.

spikes are dangerouse but are good on ice but thats all there good for

in all do what you want and if you get some magicial thing that works for you then great,

driving slower then posted speeds limints is safer and you will have less change of stuff going wrogne no matter what tire you got..

if you think that the best tires in the world are still going to allow you to drive like a mad man and survie think again.

if you can afford the costs in runing a 4x4 car truck or suv then go ahead, but just keep in mind you will still need proper and good tires and that can also get costly.

such as it is have fun , iam out of this topic ..

vpt
12-18-2010, 08:53 AM
winter tires are only been proven to provied 25% better stopping power and thats about it, now thats statisacs . want to aruge argue with the experts that put out the info..




Which snow tires were these that were tested? The are quite a few different brands out there and they DO all perform differently.

airsmith282
12-18-2010, 10:31 AM
Which snow tires were these that were tested? The are quite a few different brands out there and they DO all perform differently.

your asking the wronge perosn that question , it was on the new a few days ago,

1 of the best ones i know of are the avalanch extream which are also on my step sons monte carlo this year and they are ok but even those will still break lose and cause a fish tail. they are great in snow but no tires on the planet i know of can handel ice its pretty smiple logic, the use of chains is very hard on wheel bearings , spikes can can also only do so much but were talkin about tires them selfs,

vpt
12-18-2010, 10:57 AM
Any tire can break loose on any surface and cause "fishtail" with a rwd vehicle. We are talking about trying to get the best traction possible with any vehicle in a winter condition, ice is a unavoidable condition like you mentioned only studs or chains would help but that isn't feasable for daily road driving. Plain and simple for the best possible daily driving winter traction snow tires are the only way to go. Any brand snow tire will be a improvement over all seasons. When it comes to cars I don't believe any "experts" about anything. They test on man made track conditions and only test a few conditions like stopping, acceleration, and skid pad G's. Between my friends and I we have tested many different tires in all kinds of different conditions also including racing on ice. The best all around winter tire we have tryed so far has been the bridgestone blizzak. We noticed the blizzak holds better in corners, goes threw deeper snow, and helps stopping better than the rest. Even on the ice track front wheel drive cars with blizzak tires were performing almost if not as well as the awd cars with all season tires. If you live in an area that gets snow more than a month out of the year an extra set of wheels with snow tires will be the best investment you will ever make as far as winter driving goes. There are places in the world that in winter snow tires are law. I wonder why that is.

beanbag
12-18-2010, 04:41 PM
Yeah, I thought of that, but they're so hard to see around (ducking for cover)

Ask your wife to sit in the passenger seat and lean forwards.