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form_change
12-23-2010, 05:14 AM
I bought a BS-2 dividing head on ebay the other day. The seller didn't quite manage a full disclosure, as when I got it I discovered bits missing, broken, corrosion and worse of all, the chuck seems to be rusted onto the spindle.
At the moment I'm applying penetrating oil in the hope that it will loosen things up. If that doesn't work I may have to attack the backing plate with a cut off wheel - I'd prefer not to as if I can get it off I can probably re-use it once it is cleaned up.
Before I do that, has anyone any favorite methods for loosening large rusty bits? Heat is out as I don't want to chance cooking the spindle bearings.

( Before anyone suggests leaving everything as it is, I want to be able to remove the chuck so it's easier to lift around, as well as swap between lathe & mill - the usual sort of thing)

Michael

hardtail
12-23-2010, 05:25 AM
ATF/acetone is the best antisiezing agent in equal parts with time and patience.......light vibration might also work like an engraver tightened in the jaws........

Metalmelter
12-23-2010, 05:52 AM
ATF/acetone is the best antisiezing agent in equal parts with time and patience.......light vibration might also work like an engraver tightened in the jaws........


I agree. Someone sent me an email a while back which had shown me a comparison of multiple agents and used the simple rusted bolt and torque applied to each agent technique and the ATF/Acetone mixture was the best.

rock_breaker
12-23-2010, 05:53 AM
Hardtail is right!

A coupleof years ago I went thru this too, used light tapping (not hard enough to leave marks) om the collar perimiter with torque applied.

Several sessions of soaking and tapping over a couple of days -- may take longer for the anti sieze to work.

tdmidget
12-23-2010, 06:36 AM
ATF/acetone is the best antisiezing agent in equal parts with time and patience.......light vibration might also work like an engraver tightened in the jaws........
Preposterous. Why would ATF be better than any other oil? Because it has a red dye in it?
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh the magic of acetone. next we can hear how a couple ouces will give a dramatic increase in fuel economy.

Are we really to believe that the folks that make Kroil, PB Blaster, Liquid Wrench, etc are too dumb to stumble onto this?

As I recall this reported in the magazine and the "test" did not even involved threaded fasteners.

I you can't warm up this backplate without hurting bearings, then truly you should play with fire.

Soak it with Kroil, warm it up til it's just to warm to hold and smack it. Should see some movement on the first lick

Boucher
12-23-2010, 07:04 AM
I couldn't get the ATF to mix with the acetone. What did I do wrong?

SmoggyTurnip
12-23-2010, 07:09 AM
I know what acetone is, but what is this ATF everyone is talking about?

rockrat
12-23-2010, 07:14 AM
ATF = Automatic Transmission Fluid. Automotive automatic transmissions use it.

I have used ATF and Kroil. I hate to admit it but I am ashamed that I paid for the Kroil. Yea, it works but I found the same results so far with the ATF and light heat on the part.

rock~

Dr Stan
12-23-2010, 08:48 AM
I'm kinda surprised no one has mentioned flat Coke or Pepsi. Both contain low amounts of phosphoric acid (one slightly more than the other) which makes it a good rusty thread penetrate. Sit the head so the soda can work its way into the threads and apply it for two or three days to hopefully achieve the desired result.

Tony Ennis
12-23-2010, 09:16 AM
I couldn't get the ATF to mix with the acetone. What did I do wrong?

Nothing. They don't mix.

The whole 'witch's brew' of acetone and ATF is interesting. Some swear by it. It might have worked for me, or it might have been that 4' 2x4 and sledgehammer I was using. I was close to being unable to remove my backplate, so perhaps it did help. It's impossible to know.

I have also heard to the 'witch's brew' tests were done with threaded fasteners, but that it had different ingredients, one of the original ingredients having since been banned. I don't know what it is.

In the various tests, the humble Liquid Wrench came off very well.

Ron of Va
12-23-2010, 09:36 AM
The reason a good smack to the rusted part is so effective is that it creates microscopic fractures in the bond between the rusted part and the rust. These microscopic fractures let the penetrate work its way inside to do its magic, instead of just sitting on the surface.

I usually use a punch and a hammer against strategic places to create the most fractures without damaging the part. Your patience is your friend.

KiddZimaHater
12-23-2010, 09:38 AM
Why not try mixing Automatic Transmission Fluid, Acetone, AND Coke?? :D

pgmrdan
12-23-2010, 09:50 AM
Why not try mixing Automatic Transmission Fluid, Acetone, AND Coke?? :D

Or use a mix of ATF and Acetone then drink the Coke while you're waiting. :D

Spandau
12-23-2010, 10:55 AM
I've tried the ATF/acetone thing, PB Blaster, Wd-40, various witches brews, et al. In my experience Kroil beats them all hands down.

Numerous applications, tapping with a deadblow, and possibly heat are all your friends.

tdmidget
12-23-2010, 11:09 AM
Right Spandau. There is a reason places like power plants and such buy Kroil by the case and sometimes, drum. It works. It passes their haz mat standards and is safe, and it works.

aboard_epsilon
12-23-2010, 11:24 AM
before you take the angle grinder to it ..

try putting a bolt in the chuck jaws..a large bolt

then use an impact gun on it .

all the best.markj

Dr Stan
12-23-2010, 11:25 AM
The reason a good smack to the rusted part is so effective is that it creates microscopic fractures in the bond between the rusted part and the rust. These microscopic fractures let the penetrate work its way inside to do its magic, instead of just sitting on the surface.

I usually use a punch and a hammer against strategic places to create the most fractures without damaging the part. Your patience is your friend.

2X on tapping on the rusted parts. One can always use a soft punch (brass, copper, aluminum, wood, etc) to reduce the possibility of damaging the assembly. If you have a descaler (we called them needle guns in the Navy) that would also be a good way to introduce vibration without damage.

metalmagpie
12-23-2010, 11:29 AM
The ATF/acetone reference came from a study which was published in one of the Village Press mags. I have used it, had no trouble getting the ATF to mix with the acetone, and found it to work very well indeed.

I have heard, though, that the best possible penetrating oil is oil of wintergreen (methyl salicylate).

Kroil works OK but I found ATF/acetone to work better. It's a pain to store, though, as the acetone evaporates. So you have to mix it up at the time of use, thus it's not as convenient. If you need a large volume, though, it's also cheap.

metalmagpie

Willy
12-23-2010, 11:46 AM
before you take the angle grinder to it ..

try putting a bolt in the chuck jaws..a large bolt

then use an impact gun on it .

all the best.markj

Exactly!
This along with a couple of days with the penatrent of choice, (I like Kroil) and that thing will rattle right of.
I like to use a 3/4" impact on things like this as it gives a soo much more sharp impact.

Think of the force you exert on a wheel nut of your car or truck with an 18" flex bar while removing a wheel. Even with a 1/2" impact you can stand back and at arm's length the force of the impacts rattle the nut loose without effort.
Same principle.

Black_Moons
12-23-2010, 12:34 PM
Uh, Exactly how many totaly diffrent types of ATF are there? I seem to recall theres like 5 or 6 diffrent types of 'dextron' released over the years alone!

PS: I kinda suspect an impact gun won't do much at all when it trys to impact a 20lbs+ chuck insted of a 0.2lb nut, Except maybe ruin your jaws.

Willy
12-23-2010, 01:06 PM
Uh, Exactly how many totaly diffrent types of ATF are there? I seem to recall theres like 5 or 6 diffrent types of 'dextron' released over the years alone!

PS: I kinda suspect an impact gun won't do much at all when it trys to impact a 20lbs+ chuck insted of a 0.2lb nut, Except maybe ruin your jaws.

Try it before you knock it.

Of course if you'd rather lean on it with a 5 ft. 2x4 in the chuck jaws be my guest. This technique is great for learning the nuances of jaw alignment, not to mention back gear replacement when used on lathes so equipped.

Black_Moons
12-23-2010, 01:17 PM
Try what before I knock it? dextron 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6?
Or maybe I need ATF type A? or F?
Or one of the 5 types of Chrysler ATF.

Do I need import Mitsubishi Diamond SP-II for metric rusted bolts?
BMW LT7114l for expensive luxury bolts?
How about Toyota Type T? or can I use one of the aftermarket ATF fluids?

Seriously, saying "use atf" is JUST as vauge as saying "use oil"

Some ATF like used in CVT's is actualy designed to INCRESS friction under pressure!

Willy
12-23-2010, 01:21 PM
Try what before I knock it?

The impact gun.
Was I talking about ATF?

kc5ezc
12-23-2010, 01:23 PM
I believe the article in one of the village press mags the author used 'power steering fluid.' Don't know the difference between psf and atf. Maybe psf is type A atf. My friends who beg, borrow, or steal a batch from me swear by it. Around here it is called, 'miracle juice'. Acetone has a high vapor pressure and if left in a squirt bottle will squirt out the spout all by itself. Escpecially in the summertime.\
I have Kroil, WD-40, PBlaster, liquid wrench and assorted other solvents from acetone to VM&P naptha. The ATF or psf beats them all for me. I also have a torch and a BIG hammer if all else fails.

tdmidget
12-23-2010, 01:44 PM
But no one has yet been able to make them mix so what's up with that?
Since those who swear by this say that mixed them it would seem that their ingredients are not what they believed them to be.

Black_Moons
12-23-2010, 01:45 PM
I was not sure what you where talking about, You did'nt say, So I assumed it was the subject of my post and not the PS.

tdmidget: Some people say they got them to mix, and others say they can't, Making me think some types of ATF mix, and others do not.

aboard_epsilon
12-23-2010, 01:51 PM
I believe the article in one of the village press mags the author used 'power steering fluid.' Don't know the difference between psf and atf. Maybe psf is type A atf. My friends who beg, borrow, or steal a batch from me swear by it. Around here it is called, 'miracle juice'. Acetone has a high vapor pressure and if left in a squirt bottle will squirt out the spout all by itself. Escpecially in the summertime.\
I have Kroil, WD-40, PBlaster, liquid wrench and assorted other solvents from acetone to VM&P naptha. The ATF or psf beats them all for me. I also have a torch and a BIG hammer if all else fails.

my power steer fluid in my car is dextron 2.

all the best.markj

form_change
12-23-2010, 02:03 PM
Currently I'm attacking with Penetrene - I think it's a local brew (but then I've never heard of Kroil)
http://qsmart.net.au/Penetrene1.htm
It contains Tetrachloroethylene, which is probably good. I had a friend who maintained that the less environmentally friendly something was, the better it would work
According to the web site it's the best there is, but I've never seen a product marketed as anything but that. Still, they've been making it since 1924, so it may have something going for it. It looks a lot like auto trans fluid, although perhaps a bit thinner.
I'll see what I can do to get some vibration in there. I don't have air tools, but I can probably find a hammer drill that I can push against a block I mount or something.

Michael

metalmagpie
12-23-2010, 02:40 PM
Some ATF like used in CVT's is actualy designed to INCRESS friction under pressure!

So what do 'actualy' and 'incress' mean in Canada?

Black_Moons
12-23-2010, 03:25 PM
metalmagpie: means I need to work on my spelling more.