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View Full Version : Issues with a new item. Advise ?



Bmyers
12-23-2010, 07:23 PM
I recently bought a new tool. It arrived with problems. After going back and forth with the vendor he finally admitted this item had a history of issues and agreed to send me new parts. I inquired what the vendor would do to compensate me for time and trouble to fix this. His reply was, fixing it would make me understand the item better than the typical buyer. It took 10 days for him to pull parts from another machine and ship it to me. I now have 4 hours into cleaning the packing out of the replacement from a poor packaging job and swapping damaged parts for good. I would return the whole mess but it requires truck freight and a trip to Des Moines.
I feel I deserve some compensation for having to repair a new tool that was over $650.
thoughts ?

dp
12-23-2010, 07:50 PM
I would use the machine to make money, but not that way.

Bmyers
12-23-2010, 07:52 PM
This is a hobby not a business.

jugs
12-23-2010, 08:00 PM
He's taking the pi$$, send a recorded delivery letter giving him 14 days to either supply you (at his expense) a fully functioning tool or a complete refund, otherwise you will take him to court & apply for costs & compensation as well. Check with your citizens advice bureau for the correct form of wording for your local court system. If he tries to default - a winding up order works wonders. :eek:

If you bought a new car would you assemble the transmission from a bag of bits ?? so why would you fix his machine. :mad:

BTW What is it ???

Good luck

john
:)

RussZHC
12-23-2010, 08:04 PM
...history of problems...

Is that the item in general (model, type etc.) or that particular item (the one you bought)?

In the case of the latter, to me, it was not new, otherwise how did it have a history and if not new you did not get what you paid for and should have sent it back when you found out this history.

The former is a bit closer to a "lemon" so I am not sure what there...other than buyer beware.

What I don't get is this idea of trying to work some sort of "deal" after the fact that certainly helps the supplier but does little except frustrate you. I certainly don't know law but would almost expect that some if not all of the return shipping to the supplier would need to be covered by that supplier. I get a mutually agreeable solution but I can not see anything "good" happening from this path.
I hear about this from time to time with smaller items (its not worth anyone's time, money or effort to ship something back for refund or replacement, and the supplier just sends out a replacement) but, to me anyway, $650 is not small.


Hope this does not sound too harsh but this is the second time in about a month someone has seemingly worked a good deal based on some flaw in equipment, and I get that, but like I said last time, if you agree to a discount based on some short coming of the original package (items missing, broken, wrong) I am not sure someone has any recourse if the "deal" turns against them. If I make a mistake, and I've made more than may share, you live with it.

Bmyers
12-23-2010, 08:06 PM
New mini mill with a messed up spindle. Vendor admitted in email that he has had trouble with this issue on other mills he sold. I knew what I was getting into with a mini mill but this is unusable. And to wait 10 days for parts is inexcusable. I have not worked any deal. I was offered $10 off my next purchase with said vendor. I can't believe the vendors solution was " here are parts, deal with it"

Rustybolt
12-23-2010, 09:22 PM
In all fairness you should have just returned the whole thing in the first place. By agreeing to fix it, you agreed to spend the time to do it at your own exspense, unless arraigments were made ahead of time.

Bmyers
12-23-2010, 09:57 PM
In all fairness you should have just returned the whole thing in the first place. By agreeing to fix it, you agreed to spend the time to do it at your own exspense, unless arraigments were made ahead of time.

Yes, I have been thinking the same thing... I guess I was hoping to get the same customer service that I would provide.

lbhsbz
12-23-2010, 10:05 PM
New mini mill with a messed up spindle. Vendor admitted in email that he has had trouble with this issue on other mills he sold. I knew what I was getting into with a mini mill but this is unusable. And to wait 10 days for parts is inexcusable. I have not worked any deal. I was offered $10 off my next purchase with said vendor. I can't believe the vendors solution was " here are parts, deal with it"

:::raises hand::::

Was it the R-8 dowel pin being too long on a G------y mini mill? I called them and told them about that 3 years ago when I bought mine. I read about it a year and a half prior on mini-lathe.com....I got the same response from the vendor. I fixed it myself.

airsmith282
12-23-2010, 10:11 PM
i would have shoved he tools up his A** you dont screw a customer and get off scott free,you bend over backwards to make the customer happy, or you lose your business ,,plain and simple, in this hobby/business you will get what you pay for 99% of the time, buy cheap expect junk, but either way the dealer should be the one sending a tech with the parts or offer you a no hassel refund and come good for all shipping charges as well, i cant stand crooked dealers, car dealers are the worse of the whole lot..

Bill736
12-23-2010, 10:12 PM
I assume the mill was made in China, or Taiwan . It's often said that Asian machine tools, as delivered, are just usable castings, and if you want a nice machine you have to take it apart and go through it piece by piece. It may be that for the price, that's all you can expect. The internet is full of step by step documentations of the rebuilding of brand new Asian machines. Agreed, it's a poor way to do business, but that's the way the home machinist tool industry is . You do, however, have every right to expect that the seller will at least supply you with replacement parts as needed. While you've got your machine apart, you can clean out the casting sand, shim whatever needs it, adjust everything as necessary, and make your own modifications. When all that is done, a lot of people are happy with their Asian machines.

Bmyers
12-23-2010, 10:35 PM
Actual problem was the spindle was not bored deep enough, R8 collets would bottom out before ever pulling into the taper. I knew buying the machine I would eventually need to tweak it, but I'll be damned if I will rebore a spindle. And before anyone asks, I checked that the collets were in spec.

Bmyers
12-23-2010, 10:38 PM
:::raises hand::::

Was it the R-8 dowel pin being too long on a G------y mini mill? I called them and told them about that 3 years ago when I bought mine. I read about it a year and a half prior on mini-lathe.com....I got the same response from the vendor. I fixed it myself.

Wasn't Grizzly. It is a little machine shop in California.

914Wilhelm
12-23-2010, 11:31 PM
Did you buy this with a credit card? If so I wouldn't touch it cause then your responsible for that mess. I'd simply dispute the charge as received a non-functional unit. Let the seller deal with the aftermath.

MichaelP
12-24-2010, 12:03 AM
Little Machine Shop in California.
OK. Now I know that I'll never deal with The Little Machine Shop. Thank you.

As for your problem, I'd follow Wilhelm's advice. Speak to your card rep. and find out if you

1. have to return the item in order to reverse the charge (vs. let the seller worry about getting the junk back)

2. have a right to request a prepaid pickup label from the dealer rather than paying for return shipping (if you're required to take care of return)

Good luck! What a bunch of scumbags!

Black_Moons
12-24-2010, 12:43 AM
Actual problem was the spindle was not bored deep enough, R8 collets would bottom out before ever pulling into the taper. I knew buying the machine I would eventually need to tweak it, but I'll be damned if I will rebore a spindle. And before anyone asks, I checked that the collets were in spec.

That sounds like a really lazy/sad/etc problem to have, especialy after its reported once. Its like, Simple solution, Change one spec on the drawing +0.1", Use existing tollerance. Problem solved forever more.

Arthur.Marks
12-24-2010, 01:00 AM
Especially if you have this exchange over email about the spindle being completely out of spec', my understanding of the law is that you are not responsible for any costs----and can follow through in small claims, and win, over the simple matter of "merchantability". A small explanation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implied_warranty

Of course, do you really want to force the seller into such legal matters if they won't agree to refund you in entirety? I would tend to say it is a no-win situation. The trouble is worth more than the initial purchase. That said, I also expect this to be the reason that this stuff never gets corrected.

macona
12-24-2010, 01:16 AM
Expecting them to compensate you for your time is futile. Its just not going to happen. It wont happen anywhere. You can send the machine back to them for repair, but it will be at your cost. I am sure you could return it but again it will be at your cost and you will loose shipping both ways.

RussZHC
12-24-2010, 01:37 AM
The "deal" I was talking about in this case was expecting some compensation for fixing the supplier's problem i.e. your time and effort and I would hazard a guess if an offer was made of a lessened cost (your compensation) you may be tempted to take it, BUT DON'T!

Do you "deserve" it?
To be compensated I mean...in your eyes probably since it is as you state a new machine and you fixed it but from the dealer's perspective, why?
Sorry, I just don't get why someone would fix a new machine to that extent.

IF the general belief is that merchandise from a given source will require a complete tear down and cleaning just to be functional, and from what I have read it sounds routine in some cases after awhile one should either then accept it as "part of the cost of doing business" or not buy that merchandise.

It just sounds to me like there is no concern about having a repeat customer and if for whatever reason that is not a concern, why should they care? In a way I am surprised they sent you replacement parts and that they didn't ask for the old parts back! And unless you have some sort of proof it came that way they will try and say you caused all the problems, though that they sent you parts sort of proves their prior knowledge and THAT works in your favor.

I agree its not the way a customer should be treated and the only thing in our favor is businesses that operate this way don't last...problem is there are a few bodies along the way.
Send it back.
One of the worst examples I can think of was a friend building a garage. The concrete trucks showed on admittedly the wrong date and time yet for some reason the friend accepted the delivery and scrambled like mad trying to find enough friends, relatives and neighbors just to get it poured...I have occasion to use that building every so often and it is the worst floor and poorly fitting base of a building I have ever seen, no where close to level and never entirely dry to start with.


The previous similar post the individual had rec'd a discount as the item was bad to begin with but I guess last one or something really needed or wanted...and then it needed more fixing yet.

Sorry to say at some point, you pays your money and you takes your chances:eek:

oldtiffie
12-24-2010, 02:19 AM
I recently bought a new tool. It arrived with problems. After going back and forth with the vendor he finally admitted this item had a history of issues and agreed to send me new parts. I inquired what the vendor would do to compensate me for time and trouble to fix this. His reply was, fixing it would make me understand the item better than the typical buyer. It took 10 days for him to pull parts from another machine and ship it to me. I now have 4 hours into cleaning the packing out of the replacement from a poor packaging job and swapping damaged parts for good. I would return the whole mess but it requires truck freight and a trip to Des Moines.
I feel I deserve some compensation for having to repair a new tool that was over $650.
thoughts ?

Unless you bought it with a warranty and a statement that it was in good order and fit for purpose through eBay or similar, I really can't see what chasing the vendor will do for you.

Once you have "repaired" or used the item and unless you have pics of it to prove what condition it was in when you got it, I can't see that you have a realistic leg to stand on.

For US$600 I'd just put it down to experience and "eat" or "wear" it.

Getting all upset etc. is not going to solve the problem but is more likely to cause other problems that you can probably do without.

Was that "new" tool and the "new" parts really new?

oldtiffie
12-24-2010, 02:33 AM
This is what Bmyers said:


Wasn't Grizzly. It is a little machine shop in California.

This is how MichaelP quoted it:

Originally Posted by Bmyers
Little Machine Shop in California.

at:

OK. Now I know that I'll never deal with The Little Machine Shop. Thank you.

As for your problem, I'd follow Wilhelm's advice. Speak to your card rep. and find out if you

1. have to return the item in order to reverse the charge (vs. let the seller worry about getting the junk back)

2. have a right to request a prepaid pickup label from the dealer rather than paying for return shipping (if you're required to take care of return)

Good luck! What a bunch of scumbags!

I could not see where the OP mentioned LittleMachineShop - perhaps it was - but he should say so.

macona
12-24-2010, 03:19 AM
Way back when, I bought a 7x12 lathe from grizzly. I ended up replacing the spindle, tailstock ram, and speed controller. They sent me parts but did take a while to get some of the parts. I could have sent it back but shipping would have been no fun.

All chinese machines have issues at this price point. I cant see really what LMS has done wrong other being slow on shipping. They have done what Grizzly has done for me.

Bmyers
12-24-2010, 08:48 AM
it was LMS. They were slow on shipping. Questioned my knowledge of what I was claiming the problem was and just generally treated me poorly.
His reply was "It's a bummer that your mill isn't right. But when you are done you will understand how your mill works a lot better than the average purchaser" I guess he doesn't think the rest of his customers are too smart.
I knew when I bought it I would have to clean and tweak it, but I could have gone to Harbor Freight, bought a POS off the shelf and saved several hundred dollars. I bought from LMS because I read good feedback. I dont think the customer service warranted the higher price IMO.
BTW, I do have to send back the "bad" parts.

I think the $10 off was another purchase was just an insult.

Here is the code: 566772 Enjoy !

thank you for all the advise. Merry Christmas

JCHannum
12-24-2010, 09:22 AM
It would appear that LMS is going the way of other vendors who have grown too large too fast if their service has deteriorated to this point. I am no fan of chicom tools, and warn prospective purchasers to beware of the pitfalls of buying cheap. I recommend to spend a few dollars more and purchase from those who will provide follow up service and back up their products. In the past, LMS has been one of those I would recommend. Apparently, this is no longer the case.

The biggest problem with the chicom tools is that the customer does the QC, and is expected to correct the problem at their risk and expense as a benefit of the low price. I would expect that a reputable vendor, being fully aware of a problem of this nature would at the very least perform the basic inspection needed to determine if the machine would accept the R8 collet. Anything else is unacceptable in my mind.

airsmith282
12-24-2010, 09:55 AM
I assume the mill was made in China, or Taiwan . It's often said that Asian machine tools, as delivered, are just usable castings, and if you want a nice machine you have to take it apart and go through it piece by piece. It may be that for the price, that's all you can expect. The internet is full of step by step documentations of the rebuilding of brand new Asian machines. Agreed, it's a poor way to do business, but that's the way the home machinist tool industry is . You do, however, have every right to expect that the seller will at least supply you with replacement parts as needed. While you've got your machine apart, you can clean out the casting sand, shim whatever needs it, adjust everything as necessary, and make your own modifications. When all that is done, a lot of people are happy with their Asian machines.

suff made in China, or Taiwan are not the issue the issue is the company thats getting the stuff made if he pays 20 bucks a mill and the other guy paiys 75.00 per mill and the next guy pays 150.00 a mill or lathe etc who the hell do you think is going to have the best product , and yet all are made in same factoy, you would be supprised how much stuff is made in China, or Taiwan and have made in USA on them or made somewhere else , but all in the end China, or Taiwan ,, its not the factoys fault, they give what you pay for, so you pay for junk you get junk you pay for good stuff you get good stuff,plain known fact..

tlfamm
12-24-2010, 10:34 AM
JCHannum:
-->The biggest problem with the chicom tools is that the customer does the QC, and is expected to correct the problem at their risk and expense as a benefit of the low price.


That's not quite the model I expect. Yes, I know I'm the sole QC tech - but when I fail a product for QC reasons right out of the box - then I want a replacement shipped at the vendor's expense, or a full refund. I have definitely experienced that behavior with Grizzly & Enco.

Like you, I'm dismayed to learn that LMS has treated a customer this way. I think the OP might make further attempts to gain satisfaction - though I think demanding compensation for his labor is unrealistic.

Either LMS will protect its reputation, or it won't. In the latter case, the HSM community will take note and shop elsewhere.

S_J_H
12-24-2010, 11:10 AM
Actual problem was the spindle was not bored deep enough, R8 collets would bottom out before ever pulling into the taper. I knew buying the machine I would eventually need to tweak it, but I'll be damned if I will rebore a spindle. And before anyone asks, I checked that the collets were in spec.

That is a major problem, I'm curious what parts they sent you to fix this problem? A whole new mill head?

Steve

Bmyers
12-24-2010, 11:23 AM
That is a major problem, I'm curious what parts they sent you to fix this problem? A whole new mill head?

Steve
A whole new head, but it wasn't without issues. They shipped it unwrapped, so the head was full of styrofoam, the fine feed was bent. I have 4 hours into a fix that LMS said should take 30 minutes tops.

Bmyers
12-24-2010, 11:31 AM
JCHannum:

Like you, I'm dismayed to learn that LMS has treated a customer this way. I think the OP might make further attempts to gain satisfaction - though I think demanding compensation for his labor is unrealistic.


Perhaps compensation is unrealistic, but I feel my time and inconvenience has a valve. I didn't pay with money that had stipulations attached.
To be told this is how any retailer would handle a similar situation is B/S as I have dealt with Enco on several issues, only to have a new item in a day or 2. I was ok with having to fix the machine, what pissed me off was waiting 10 day for replacements! The parts should have been pulled the same day I called and over nighted or second day to me. LMS waited 4 days to remove the parts and that was after I enquirer to the status of the issue.

tlfamm
12-24-2010, 12:30 PM
Is it possible that reduced staffing (because of the holidays) made the situation worse than it would have been normally?

I've been contemplating a machinery purchase from LMS myself - but if they don't address your dissatisfaction, I may just put them in the "no business from me" category.

danlb
12-24-2010, 01:35 PM
I'm not trying to defend LMS, but sending a new head to swap out in 30 minutes (if it had been properly packaged) is not a real bad solution. If you can do it in 30 minutes then that is less time than is needed to uncrate and clean up a new mill.

It seems it would be a lot less work than crating up and shipping a mini-mill. Less costly for you and them too.

Even QVC will not pay you for your time when you send back a broken, rdefective or unwanted item. I think you still end up paying for shipping with them too.

At least they did offer to make it good in some fashion.

Dan

DR
12-24-2010, 01:39 PM
With this whole business of low quality merchandise from where ever, I see HSM mag as a willing participant in this.

Who advertises in the mags? And, who publishes articles abut repairing the faulty equipment?

My advice is only pay with credit card. If there's a problem the seller doesn't respond favorably on stop the payment, put the item on your porch and tell the seller to come and get it.


Amazon apparently knows how to deal with problems. I ordered a tank less gas water heater. It came via UPS, as you would expect from UPS, the package was damaged. I took photos prior to opening. Called Amazon about the dent in the front cover. They said it was my choice, keep the damaged one less the price of a new cover, or they'd send a new one. They also said they would cover the factory warranty in the event of undiscovered problems in the inner workings. Oh, yeah, they offered a small gift certificate for our troubles.

Richard-TX
12-24-2010, 01:52 PM
I think asking for to be compensated for labor is a bit much. I know of no seller or manufacturer that would do that.

If I were the seller and someone was insistent they be compensated for labor, I would tell the buyer to box it back up and that I would send a truck to pick up the item. I would refund the buyer's purchase price including shipping. Sure I would take a loss but better that than to spread a bunch of ill will or spend a bunch of time trying to make an unreasonable person happy. I would make a silent notation in my database to never sell that customer another thing. In other words, I don't want that person as a customer.

At this time of year, delays can occur due to the onslaught of Xmas orders. 10 days to receive parts is not unusual. I just had an item shipped to me and UPS took a week to deliver it. I shipped an item from Texas to Ohio via USPS Priority mail and it went from Fort Worth to Orlando to Toledo. Suffice to say it did not arrive in the expected 2-3 days time.

macona
12-24-2010, 01:56 PM
Perhaps compensation is unrealistic, but I feel my time and inconvenience has a valve. I didn't pay with money that had stipulations attached.
To be told this is how any retailer would handle a similar situation is B/S as I have dealt with Enco on several issues, only to have a new item in a day or 2. I was ok with having to fix the machine, what pissed me off was waiting 10 day for replacements! The parts should have been pulled the same day I called and over nighted or second day to me. LMS waited 4 days to remove the parts and that was after I enquirer to the status of the issue.

Overnight the mill head? That would have cost near as much as the mill is worth.

DR
12-24-2010, 02:02 PM
....................................an unreasonable person.............................



.................................................. ............................





Have things come to the state that expecting something to work out of the box is unreasonable?

Encourage this kind of behavior by sellers and expect more of it.

Bmyers
12-24-2010, 02:08 PM
Richard, do you not expect something new out of the box to work as expected ? If you bought a new car, appliance, mower... and it had problems you would be ok that the only solution offered was parts sent to you so you can fix it yourself and better understand that product ? I wasnt looking for cash to cover my time nor was I looking for lame excuses. I think it is crap LMS knew that these mills sometimes have spindle issues and they still made me jump through hoops to get some kind of solution to the problem.
I think you miss the point about the 10 days, the vendor sat on his ass for 5 days before even bothering to ship parts to me.
Perhaps time and money comes easier to you than me.
\ rant off\

Arcane
12-24-2010, 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by Richard-TX

....................................an unreasonable person.............................



.................................................. ............................


Have things come to the state that expecting something to work out of the box is unreasonable?

Encourage this kind of behavior by sellers and expect more of it.


Now you know why I say people have accepted crap for so long they now think it's normal.

38_Cal
12-24-2010, 04:11 PM
As a gunsmith, I've seen it many times over the past thirty plus years...I refer to most new guns as "almost like an assembled kit" with a fair amount of detailing work needing to be done. :rolleyes: Of course, it kept me in beans & beer for that amount of time!

David

RussZHC
12-24-2010, 04:23 PM
Playing devil's advocate here...

Most of what I have read regarding "chicom" machinery implies that a company can have the same item built to different standards, either in original materials (I assume QC on the ground there is the way to have this happen), pieces used to make up sub-assemblies or entire machines or "fit and finish".
What is it that convinces someone to purchase a given machine over another? And I think I have read more here than on PM that some can differentiate between what is good and what is not so good from the same manufacturer/supplier/store, frankly, how?

I am saying several things here, mostly that locally I don't know that I have much choice, it is either poor quality or of such high quality I can not afford it or have no reason to get a machine of such standards. Like the standard of living, there appears to have been a complete erosion of the middle ground.

I would present a "what if"...would there be a market for someone to buy in bulk (though this maybe so close to having them made off shore to your specs...) and spend a lot of time, money and effort to resale the now "guaranteed" machines? And would there be a market for that now "improved" machine?

One would have thought the detail at fault in the case of the OP would/should have been of sufficient importance as to never have left the factory, even with limited QC. And if it did arrive at the seller, that they would have some sort of QC in house to catch the worst, just from the standpoint of wanting good customer relations, i.e. not having this exact situation arise.

Finally, I am tired of "it" too, does this get back to the debate about older "American" iron (possibly worn out with not parts in sight) versus "chicom" that seemingly has little QC in many cases?
Neither option is all that palatable, or should not be, +1 Arcane!!

oldtiffie
12-24-2010, 04:58 PM
I am more than a bit surprised and disappointed as it seem that it IS LittleMachineShop.

I've had excellent service from them over time but I only buy "tools" and not "Machines" (which I'd class a milling head as) and in all cases the preliminary email to and from, ordering, packaging, USPS and OZPost have been excellent as has the quality. I could use the tools "as is" right out of the box.

I've had the same experience with CDCO tools and a couple of others in the USA.

I'd expect the odd one or two "failures" to "slip through" once in a while but overall, I've done quite well.

"Returns" are pretty well a non-event from Australia to the USA but I had to return an item to the UK and they were excellent about it and the replacement item was excellent.

I buy may larger, more precise and more costly tools right here in OZ as my main supplier is only about 40Km (~25 miles) from here and I pick them up. I get a good warranty and have had no real troubles with the tools or machines and in the event I wanted a replacement, I got it, right there and then, no questions asked. I've had to "touch up" the occasional minor item here and there - nothing that stopped me using it - and have no complaints.

Robin R
12-24-2010, 06:43 PM
I don't think it is unreasonable in a situation like this to expect the dealer to make things right and I'm not sure that just sending the customer some parts to do the repairs himself qualifies. What if the customer didn't feel confident to do the work themselves, should they have to pay someone else to do the work for them. Given that the dealer knew this was a recognised problem with this machine, they should have a decent plan of how to make things right. Otherwise perhaps it should have been advertised as defective, but this is the price anyway.

Arc Eurotrade seems to have this scenario covered. They either sell you the machine on the understanding that it needs to be stripped and prepaired, or you pay a premium to have their service personel do the work for you. On the mill I looked at, the cost of having them do this work for you is about 30% extra. They do say that you should only undertake the work if you are an experienced engineer/machinist. http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories

Bmyers
12-27-2010, 11:08 AM
the latest in this saga: I called UPS this morning to schedule a pick up of the bad parts (UPS return label provided) It seems that I am required to PAY to ship back the defective parts. I have emailed LMS expressing my complete disappointment.

Arthur.Marks
12-27-2010, 11:18 AM
Arc Eurotrade seems to have this scenario covered.
I would highly support this system. It would seem to be a win/win for both parties. The business can make a little extra $ while at the same time expressly covering their butt in the instance something is amiss. If the "factory" option was the agreement when purchasing, then I believe simply providing replacement parts clearly rectifies the situation. With the ambiguity in the LMS purchase, it is a headache for both parties. Strict price shopping is not going to work based on reputation alone. A clear definition of service is to be applauded.

Clearly, I would like to see more of this type of approach from sellers of this level of machinery.

SteveF
12-27-2010, 01:55 PM
I have emailed LMS expressing my complete disappointment.

You should have sent an email asking for their UPS account number if they want their parts back.

Steve.

Black_Moons
12-27-2010, 02:53 PM
Yea, I no longer return damaged parts anymore. I just photograph them in detail with my microscope camera/12mp macro zoom camera and give them the photos. They can give me my replacement parts, or I can post about it to world+dog with pics. If they REALLY want them back, they can pay, But I have not been asked to do so after showing pics of clearly faulty unusable parts.

In this case, Id show a picture of the spindle bore with a caliper set to depth gauge mode inserted, And then one with an R-8 collet inserted, idealy with a thickness guage or something inserted into the taper area, or just a photograph of the gap.

Bmyers
12-27-2010, 03:33 PM
i simply emailed that the parts are boxed up on the porch, make arrangements to get them

Mcruff
12-27-2010, 03:51 PM
I think someone needs to provide a link to this thread to Little Machine shop so they get the idea of how bad this could affect there business!

mbensema
12-27-2010, 05:56 PM
If they still want you to return the parts at your expense, tell them to reference the terms & conditions of sale on their own website.

http://littlemachineshop.com/Info/terms.php

Bmyers
12-27-2010, 06:38 PM
according to LMS all i have to do is flag down a UPS truck or take it to a UPS store for paid return shipping. I called the 800 # provided by LMS to arrange pick up and was told that return shipping was not paid I had to pay. I contacted LMS, they told me they would pay shipping but I dont have time to chase a UPS truck and the nearest UPS store is 45 miles one way. I informed LMS that it is sitting on my porch they can figure out how to get it. I am done dealing with LMS, the customer service sucks. Chris has been rude and arrogant to the point I dont think he want to solve an issue that might cost him money.
Anyone want to buy a new mill ?

RobbieKnobbie
12-27-2010, 09:12 PM
I've been in the custom machinery business for a number of years and, at least for this segment of the market, it's not unusual for parts to be sent out to a customer when problems arise. Only in special circumstances did we send out a tech or an engineer to replace/re-engineer a solution. Typically when we didn't fully understand a problem and it would be an investment for us to go out and whitness the issue first hand.

We never compensated a customer for installation.

These were machines hat cost anywhere from 100K to 1.7M

The difference in this situation is that Bmyers (and many of us in this hobby) is dealing in the grey area between the consumer and industrial markets. LMS leans toward the consumer end by offering improved service / mini lessons, advice and such on his web site, and with that comensurately higher prices. As such customers expect an experience more in tune with the consumer end of things. Unfortunately, at $650, there just isn't enough profit in the machine to support the kid glove treatment you (we) have come to expect from our local Big Box retailers

Sending you the parts sounds about right IMHO. Compensation for repair time? It would be nice, but not realistic.

John Stevenson
12-28-2010, 05:53 AM
I think someone needs to provide a link to this thread to Little Machine shop so they get the idea of how bad this could affect there business!

LMS are aware of this post but cannot register to reply.

.

Ketan Swali
12-28-2010, 11:22 AM
The difference in this situation is that Bmyers (and many of us in this hobby) is dealing in the grey area between the consumer and industrial markets. LMS leans toward the consumer end by offering improved service / mini lessons, advice and such on his web site, and with that comensurately higher prices. As such customers expect an experience more in tune with the consumer end of things. Unfortunately, at $650, there just isn't enough profit in the machine to support the kid glove treatment you (we) have come to expect from our local Big Box retailers

Sending you the parts sounds about right IMHO. Compensation for repair time? It would be nice, but not realistic.

So true!

I think Bmyers gripe with Chris is more to do with wanting to be compensated properly for the repair time, more then anything else.

Issues with mini-mills are well documented on the web for all to read. I would have thought that Bmyers, being a senior member here with years of experience would have read up on these issues before purchase.

This is not an excuse. I have known Chris to be reasonable. He has provided a replacement head instead of spindle only - which is a bit over the top - IMHO. He has offered to pay for return of faulty spindle back to him.

Chris has offered US$10.00 compensation towards future purchase. I admit that I would have paid Bmyers the US$10.00 plus something extra for the trouble, by mutual agreement. So I wonder if there is something more to this.

In most cases, the machines do work straight out of the box - this being a possible exception. You can prepare a machine to improve on the accuracy. To what extent you go to depends on your personal expectations.

If Bmyers expected to do the prepartion himself, then to be compensated for his labor may be unreasonable. Also, we only know Bmyers side of this story. It would be good if Chris could also respond.

All of this should have been discussed between both parties before agreeing to proceed with the repair.

US$650.00 for a Super X2 Mini-Mill with brushless motor, represents very good value for money. I think Bmyers should re-consider his opinion and options. If he still wants to sell, someone here should consider to buy it from him.

I agree with both parties to certain extent. At the end of the day both of you need to be reasonable.

KiloBravo
12-28-2010, 12:56 PM
I agree with both parties to certain extent. At the end of the day both of you need to be reasonable.




New mini mill with a messed up spindle. Vendor admitted in email that he has had trouble with this
issue on other mills he sold. I knew what I was getting into with a mini mill but this is unusable.

Actual problem was the spindle was not bored deep enough, R8 collets would bottom out before ever
pulling into the taper.


Fit and Finish is one thing but a mill that is unusable and the vendor knows it is a problem and still sells it without checking the spindle. That is a disgrace. IMO of course.

Ketan Swali
12-28-2010, 02:26 PM
Fit and Finish is one thing but a mill that is unusable and the vendor knows it is a problem and still sells it without checking the spindle. That is a disgrace. IMO of course.

I think that "disgrace" is a strong word to use when we can only read one part of the story. I do not think that LMS knowingly sent out a machine with a faulty spindle. What would LMS hope to gain out of it?. LMS may have failed to check it before dispatch but that is a different matter. They may have sent it thinking that this does not need to be checked.

Boring out the spindle to the correct diameter has been an issue experienced by various people in the past, on random machines. It normally effects small production batches. However, this is the first issue I am reading about where the collet has bottomed out. LMS has sold many of these machines by now and if it was a problem across the batch, they would have had a lot most customers bringing this issue to their attention. As they havnt - I hope - it could mean that this is an isolated issue - specifically to do with bottoming.

You need to be aware that this problem is being looked at seriously, and this specific machines issue has been brought up to the attention of the production department at SIEG. So, along with LMS, SIEG and I are waiting to read about the real problem with this specific spindle, once Chris receives it back.

Bmyers
12-28-2010, 03:21 PM
Discrace is a harsh word.
My gripe was not about being reimburshed in any monitary value, I never expected that. I felt $10 coupon was kind of insulting in light of the time that lapsed from first contact until i received the new head. The wait is my gripe (10 days I believe). I was suprised that an entire head was sent, I was expecting just piece parts, so that did speed up the replacement. Poor packaging is inexcusable from a company that deals in precision tools and machines daily. There was packing foam in every nook and cranny. Wrapping the head in a bag would have solved that easily.
The hassle with UPS upset me only because it seems as if this has drug out too long with less than stellar customer service.
The head is on the way back to LMS, btw.
This is just my experience with LMS (my first purchase) your mileage may vary.

KiloBravo
12-28-2010, 03:35 PM
I think that "disgrace" is a strong word to use when we can only read one part of the story. I do not think that LMS knowingly sent out a machine with a faulty spindle.

I have no "skin" in the game so I won't debate the issue further. But, the Vendor has acknowledged this has happened before and is a known problem.

You seem to be like others in saying it is OK. Have we have been buying crap so long we accept it that a "brand new product" is unusable out of the box ?
I don't and don't think the vendor should get a pass either. Why bother buying from LMS if that is the case. Harbor Freight has the same model cheaper.

As I said before it's my opinion and YMMV ;)

Disgrace means loss of honor, respect, or reputation. Seems to apply to me.

lynnl
12-28-2010, 03:45 PM
You need to be aware that this problem is being looked at seriously, and this specific machines issue has been brought up to the attention of the production department at SIEG. So, along with LMS, SIEG and I are waiting to read about the real problem with this specific spindle, once Chris receives it back.

I'm just curious Ketan Swali, you seem to have more than just a passing interest in this, and your "join date" and number of posts suggest you've registered just for the purpose of voicing an opinion in the matter.

Are you affiliated with LMS or SIEG? or What?

Alistair Hosie
12-28-2010, 04:09 PM
You have been treated less than fairly ask for compen-----.my opinion Alistair

Bmyers
12-28-2010, 04:29 PM
Ketan Swali
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/

LittleMachineShop.com
12-28-2010, 04:37 PM
Before you all line up to lynch us or file a lawsuit, I hope you'll allow the scumbags (that would be us) to respond.

We've built our business on not only having the right tools at the right price, but most importantly, providing great customer service. We stand behind all the products we sell; like every retailer, we occasionally receive a defective product from one of our suppliers, but when that happens we strive to replace, repair, or refund as quickly as possibleŚwhichever will best serve the customer. We've tried to maintain that level of service in this case, but we screwed up on timely delivery and clearly we haven't met this customer's expectations.

In this case, when the customer informed us of the problem, we worked with him in a series of e-mails over the next few hours to diagnose the problem so that we could provide the best solution. The simplest solution would be to ship a new mill to the customer and ask him to re-crate and arrange truck shipment (at our expense of course) for return of the defective unit. Instead, after determining what the problem was, we offered to send a replacement mill head assembly, which would arrive sooner (because we could ship by UPS) and would be fairly easy to swap out (it was not "a bucket of parts"). At the time, the customer seemed satisfied with this solution. Regrettably, we didn't ship the new head until nearly a week later (four business days plus a weekend). We had to test the new unit, remove it from a mill, and pack it, but it should've gone the next dayŚno excuses. Yes, four days is too long, and it's not our usual practice.

We included with the shipment a prepaid label for return shipping of the defective item. At no time did we suggest that the customer pay anything to return the parts. When the customer informed us that he doesn't live near a town where he can drop off the package, we sent a UPS call tag so that UPS would pick it up at no expense or inconvenience to him.

In short, with the exception of a delay in sending the replacement part, we've responded quickly to all of this customer's requests, and we've tried to do so with respect and with appreciation and understanding of his situation. Clearly, our good intent hasn't come across in our communications and we haven't met his expectations, to our great regret. We're glad that two weeks after reporting the problem, he has the working machine he wanted, but regret that it took that long and that we've created an unhappy customer.

So, collective wisdom of the forum, given that we messed up by taking four days to ship a replacement instead of one, what should we have done differently? What should we do now?

John Stevenson
12-28-2010, 04:43 PM
So, collective wisdom of the forum, given that we messed up by taking four days to ship a replacement instead of one, what should we have done differently? What should we do now?

I think two Hail Mary's, two Mitoyo's and a Moore and Wrights should cover it this time - don't let it happen again. :p

.

KiloBravo
12-28-2010, 06:13 PM
I would be happy if LMS would test the spindles before shipment. If it is in fact a known problem, which it appears to be.

Also, timely communication is essential with an unhappy customer. I guess you can figure that out from all the posts !

The customer seems happy so the Hail Marys should suffice.

I have purchased from LMS in the past and will continue to do so in the future if they have a product I like.

AllThumbz
12-28-2010, 06:55 PM
Before you all line up to lynch us or file a lawsuit, I hope you'll allow the scumbags (that would be us) to respond.

I have been reading this thread, waiting for your response, so that I could hear both sides before commenting. Of 60+ posts, this is only about the third post since you responded a few hours ago. There have been many posts before that. My personal view is that without hearing your side of this dispute, it would be premature to determine that you were in the wrong. Far from the moniker "scumbags," I think it was pretty reasonable of you to come here, take time from your business to register, and address this issue directly, and I thank you for doing so, and am glad you did.



So, collective wisdom of the forum, given that we messed up by taking four days to ship a replacement instead of one, what should we have done differently? What should we do now?

You owned up to making a mistake in delaying shipment, which is certainly to your credit. While the delay was apparently not as lengthy as stated by the customer, it did occur. None of us is perfect, and delays do occur. On the other hand, there were many allegations made, including that you required the customer to pay return shipping, which did not ring true at the time, and which I find hard to believe, given that the package was picked up. Also, there were allegations that you knowingly sold an item which has problems, which, given the amount of aggravation that this incident has caused, and the potential for damage to your reputation, I simply find lacking in credibility.

The thing to have done differently would have been to notify the customer by email that shipment was delayed pending inspection of the item. However, given what I read here, I think there certainly were some things that were simply blown out of proportion.

As for what to do now--you have explained and apologized, so I do not see what else there is to do. (Have a shot of Jamiesons perhaps, and chalk it up to life's experience?) As you well know, having been in business some time, there are people that you simply cannot satisfy. No matter what, their minds will be made up, and you will not be able to change that. Having read this thread, and considering the chronology, and my own personal experiences with Mr. Myers, I think you have done what you could, and must move on and try to satisfy others.

Thanks once again for logging on here and presenting your perspective.

Nelson

Bmyers
12-28-2010, 07:09 PM
Wow, having Nelson say something is blown out of proportion after the way he has acted over at PM ?
To be factual, I said I contacted UPS to schedule a pick up, UPS said I was required to pay for pick up. LMS did take care of the return promptly. I apologize for going off prematurely on that point.

RussZHC
12-28-2010, 07:13 PM
LittleMachineShop:


After going back and forth with the vendor he finally admitted this item had a history of issues and agreed to send me new parts.

I took this to mean the particular item he received had a history, as in something like not good from the supplier, sold to a customer who returned it and then sold again OR sold to person one who returned it for whatever reason and then sold again...not saying you do that but that it does happen. And frankly shouldn't.
What I am thinking now is he meant the general group of items (a particular model of mill as example) has, according to many reports, a general history of issues, some small, some, clearly not so minor.


Two thoughts:
quality control in-house either start it (as opposed to just rec' goods with minimal inspection) or improve it but how far you take that is a matter of degree.
I think there was reference to another seller who has two separate price lists, one that is more or less "straight out of the box" which I take to mean the seller receives it from supplier and other than exterior visual inspection, it just continues on its path to the end user and the second where the "known" problems are taken care of to a large degree. I think there is near to universal feeling that at a given price point (if that is subconsciously used as a standard for higher quality) one expects to do a near complete rebuild of some products because the chances of a "known" problem happening are pretty good.

The second thought would be putting the shoe on your foot, so to speak.
What happens between yourself and the supplier when an item is not up to your standards? It must happen from time to time just as an issue like with the OP, while likely happening rarely (I am guessing from a business standpoint it just can't happen too often...) do you even have a choice or just eat the costs?
And further up the food chain, IF what is rumor, that one can get the same original factory to make the same basic machine at various levels of quality depending on how much $$$ is spread around, what does SIEG (am I correct in that?) do if a bunch are sent out on its behalf that just are not what they are supposed to be, how does that get resolved?

To me both of those examples have a lot of parallels to the issue between yourself and the OP, a matter of degree and in that degree $$$ but again, relative. How does LMS and further up, SIEG, handle those similar issues? "Rhetorical"

Ketan Swali
12-29-2010, 04:31 AM
I have no "skin" in the game so I won't debate the issue further. But, the Vendor has acknowledged this has happened before and is a known problem.

You seem to be like others in saying it is OK.

There is some mis-understanding here. Bmyers said that LMS acknowledge this has happened before. Did LMS say that the bottoming issue has happened before?..As I said, the boring issue is know about, but this is the first time I am hearing of a bottoming issue.

By the way, I am not saying this is OK. As pointed out by you, now that LMS is aware of it, perhaps they will check the spindle before sending the machine out.:)

Ketan Swali
12-29-2010, 04:39 AM
I'm just curious Ketan Swali, you seem to have more than just a passing interest in this, and your "join date" and number of posts suggest you've registered just for the purpose of voicing an opinion in the matter.

Are you affiliated with LMS or SIEG? or What?

I am the Director of Arc Euro Trade Ltd. based in U.K.. We are a distributor of SIEG machines. I believe that vendors have a right to respond.

There have been several times I have wanted to comment on topics overs the past two years, but I had problems with resgistration. George sorted the problem out for me, so now I have joined and voiced my opinion in this matter.

Ketan Swali
12-29-2010, 05:54 AM
LittleMachineShop:



I took this to mean the particular item he received had a history, as in something like not good from the supplier, sold to a customer who returned it and then sold again OR sold to person one who returned it for whatever reason and then sold again...not saying you do that but that it does happen. And frankly shouldn't.
What I am thinking now is he meant the general group of items (a particular model of mill as example) has, according to many reports, a general history of issues, some small, some, clearly not so minor.


Two thoughts:
quality control in-house either start it (as opposed to just rec' goods with minimal inspection) or improve it but how far you take that is a matter of degree.
I think there was reference to another seller who has two separate price lists, one that is more or less "straight out of the box" which I take to mean the seller receives it from supplier and other than exterior visual inspection, it just continues on its path to the end user and the second where the "known" problems are taken care of to a large degree. I think there is near to universal feeling that at a given price point (if that is subconsciously used as a standard for higher quality) one expects to do a near complete rebuild of some products because the chances of a "known" problem happening are pretty good.

The second thought would be putting the shoe on your foot, so to speak.
What happens between yourself and the supplier when an item is not up to your standards? It must happen from time to time just as an issue like with the OP, while likely happening rarely (I am guessing from a business standpoint it just can't happen too often...) do you even have a choice or just eat the costs?
And further up the food chain, IF what is rumor, that one can get the same original factory to make the same basic machine at various levels of quality depending on how much $$$ is spread around, what does SIEG (am I correct in that?) do if a bunch are sent out on its behalf that just are not what they are supposed to be, how does that get resolved?

To me both of those examples have a lot of parallels to the issue between yourself and the OP, a matter of degree and in that degree $$$ but again, relative. How does LMS and further up, SIEG, handle those similar issues? "Rhetorical"

By admitting that there is a history of issues with the R8 spindle, what has LMS done wrong?

As an example: Lets say that LMS received 50 x SX2 machince. All 50 went out. 49 did not have a problem with the spindle - that we know of -, and machine number 50 came up with the problem, which was brought up to LMSs attention by Bmyers.

Lets say that LMS automatically presumed that it is the same spindle boring/keyway problem which occurs every now and then, so they say that there is a history.

Combining the two points, now that LMS has been made aware, the only thing they can do in the future is check each and every R8 spindle, before sending the machine out. Still, we will only know what is the exact problem with this specific spindle, once LMS gets it back from Bmyers.
------------
Your comment "quality control in-house" - this is an on going exercise. No seller wants to hear about problems, not even SIEG. This specific machines spindle problem has already done a lot of milage in terms of "talk" at SIEG HQ. All opinions have been thrown up in the air with a lot of finger pointing internally. I have advised SIEG that it is pointless to speculate, and better to point after the faulty spindle is in hand.
------------
Your comment "reference to another seller who has two separate price lists" - that seller is ARC. We check the R8 spindles as a matter of course now, even for in-the-box machines. We will not release these machines if there is a problem with the R8 spindle bore. In the past three years, we have experianced this problem once or twice only. It was nothing to do with botteming out. Usually, either the bore was too tight, or the stub inside the spindle for the keyway was the wrong diameter or length. This problem was not to do with the factory QC.

Every now and then, there is an American importer who provides different specifications for R8 spindle bore. This has been discussed by me and others on other forums, at that time, specifically to do with X3 x R8 spindles. It created a hell of a problem for everyone else including Lathe Master. Finally, I spoke with my competitors in U.K. to see what Chinese R8 collet stock they had with dimensions. Compared them with what we had, and gave SIEG two master collets they could use to inspect every R8 spindle they installed for ARC.

Since then, the problems have reduced to the point that I can now specifically raise the matter with QC, for one or two machines only, out of a large batch.
------------
Your comment "IF what is rumor, that one can get the same original factory to make the same basic machine at various levels of quality depending on how much $$$ is spread around" - Importers specify build specifications such as length of bed for lathe, motor, Mill column height, table length, - control board - with or without overload protection, basic model or the all singing and dancing brushless model - etc.. This has an impact on the $$$ they pay, and in turn what you pay. The said machines are built on the same production lines, so the QC rumor relationship to $$$ you pay is simply marketing BS.

If an importer has a problem with the batch they recieve from SIEG, they usually resolve the matter between themselves by mutual agreement. Depending on the problem, the importer is compensated financially to a small extent only, but he/she is provided with spares to cure the minor problems. Regardless of what you may think, the production costs - especially of late, and the margins on these machines - especially for U.S. and U.K. due to certain giant importers, are extreamly tight. So, importers like us and LMS try to work with SIEG as well as our customers to resolve problems the best way we can. At the same time, it has been know for SIEG to take back machines which have major problems - but this is a rare occurance.

If the machines were double the price they are, it would be difficult to attract more people to the hobby. Yes, I agree that you should not pay for crap. At this price, generally speaking, you are not paying for crap - in most cases -. Also, in most cases, the machines do work out of the box. Where there is a problem, it is being resolved "within a reasonable length of time" - in a hobby environment.

Personally, I think that the time LMS took to resolve the problem, and the way they resolved it, is reasonable. Perhaps they should have advised Bmyers of expected delay, and perhaps they should have paid Bmyers a little more by way of compensation, but then again, I do not know what it costs them to send out the head, and getting the faulty item back - so I may be being un-reasonable in my comment. This is my opinion, and I apologize in advance if I offend anyone here.:)

KiloBravo
12-29-2010, 09:03 AM
Ketan Swali I don't think anyone is offended and YOU have a good oppurtunity to hear what your customers have to say. I think that is very important.

I still don't see your point about the spindle you mention two other possible problems. If it doesn't work when the customer receives it it doesn't work.
They are not concerned about which problem is preventing it from working.

Also, if it does not work which customer do you think is going to post on this board ? I'm pretty sure the 49 customers whose machine works will be using it and the one guy who has a brand new machine sitting in his shop with nothing to do will have the time to post on this board !

As I said before testing the spindle before it goes out should solve the problems. Hopefully, SIEG can do this because it would be a lot easier to test before it is crated.

Also, timely communication with an unhappy customer is a must.

I will reiterate everyone posting is a potential customer so listen to what we have to say. That's my opinion and I think it is a valid one.

Ketan Swali
12-29-2010, 09:29 AM
Hi KiloBravo,

Your opinion is totally valid. I do listen to what my customers have to say. OK, a spindle problem is a spindle problem - which ever way you dress it.

With reference to this post, up until recently, the topic was going in one direction only without hearing the vendors side of the story.

I agree that without customers we would not have a business. We dont want problems.

Yes - QC at SIEG should have checked the spindle before the machine was crated. This has been brought to their attention.

We try to solve problems the best way we can.

Arthur.Marks
12-29-2010, 01:21 PM
Every now and then, there is an American importer who provides different specifications for R8 spindle bore. This has been discussed by me and others on other forums, at that time, specifically to do with X3 x R8 spindles. It created a hell of a problem for everyone else including Lathe Master. Finally, I spoke with my competitors in U.K. to see what Chinese R8 collet stock they had with dimensions. Compared them with what we had, and gave SIEG two master collets they could use to inspect every R8 spindle they installed for ARC.

Ketan raises the often overlooked "dirty little secret" of R8 collets. ;) I will let Machinery's Handbook explain,

R8 Collet.---The dimensions in this figure are believed reliable. However, there are variations among manufacturers of R8 collets, especially regarding the width and depth of the keyway. Some sources do not agree with all dimensions in this figure. R8 collets are not always interchangeable. p.944, 28th Ed.

I have found this to be personally true with my RF31. When I first received the machine I bought a set of collets. They did not fit. In my case, I followed the assumption that the collets were out of spec' and not my machine. I returned the collets and bought a different brand. Those fit quite perfectly. I have since found this to not be an isolated incident---even among the established, higher price-point manufacturers. For example, Lyndex and ETM manufacture to slightly different R8 dimensions. It should go without saying that the above comment does not bear on the issue with Bmyers. I felt it was on-topic, though, to mention the point and the trouble it raises not only for distributors, but also for manufacturers.