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View Full Version : Accuracy of the Busy bee 10x18 B2227L lathe



airsmith282
12-24-2010, 05:06 PM
ever wouder how good these machines are well here you go enjoy the video,

here is the youtube link feel free to leave comments

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMC_G22SuCM

philbur
12-24-2010, 06:12 PM
Sorry but that procedure tells you nothing about the accuracy of the machine. About the only thing it is capable of showing is any none cyclical errors in the spindle bearings.

Phil:)


ever wouder how good these machines are well here you go enjoy the video,

here is the youtube link feel free to leave comments

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMC_G22SuCM

Black_Moons
12-24-2010, 06:33 PM
"Accuracy is the sum total of your compensating mistakes."

airsmith282
12-24-2010, 07:49 PM
now thats funny as sh*T

darryl
12-24-2010, 10:01 PM
I couldn't watch the whole thing. He made assumptions that aren't true, and he had the indicator mounted poorly to make that measurement. I was about a half thou of runout, and probably with the angled mounting of the indicator stem it ended up showing less than there might be.

If the runout I interpreted is roughly correct, it's no wonder he needed that many spring passes to 'clean up' the stub. He probably is more or less correct that the stub is now 'round'. After that many passes, all the high spots have been knocked off, and what's left is something smaller in diameter than you may have wanted, but probably fairly round.

I looked at that lathe, but I didn't ask to hear it run. Now that I've heard it- hmm, that whine would drive me crazy, and the loose rocks sound would as well. I'm hoping that all gear head lathes aren't that noisy-

beckley23
12-24-2010, 11:01 PM
Most of the gear heads I've heard are a much quieter than that lathe.
Harry

Tony Ennis
12-24-2010, 11:06 PM
Probably decent for the money.

winchman
12-25-2010, 05:22 AM
Most of the gear heads I've heard are a much quieter than that lathe.
Harry

Until you get them loaded up.....with a few beers.


As for the video, it's really funny. His not knowing if the lathe came from China or Taiwan (or even that it made a difference) got me started. His thinking that the runout on the cylinder he'd just done was a measure of the lathe's "accuracy" had me falling out of the chair. Thankfully, I was able to hit something that closed the video, or I'd probably have died laughing.

DICKEYBIRD
12-25-2010, 08:50 AM
"Accuracy is the sum total of your compensating mistakes."Hey, I resemble that remark!:D

Allan Waterfall
12-25-2010, 11:57 AM
What a plonker,if he's using a HSS tool bit,1520 rpm is a bit fast for that diameter.
Judging by the number of times he retracted the clock probe and let it flirt back into contact with the work I doubt the clocks any good for any accurate work,not that it would matter anyway if he sets it up like that.

Allan

David Powell
12-25-2010, 12:54 PM
I owe my success to those who took the time, and cared enough, to show me the proper way to do things. Kevin's video leaves more questions than answers.Lets look at what he has done so far, and suggest how he can do better, instead of just criticising. Regards and Happy Christmas to all David Powell.

airsmith282
12-25-2010, 05:06 PM
I couldn't watch the whole thing. He made assumptions that aren't true, and he had the indicator mounted poorly to make that measurement. I was about a half thou of runout, and probably with the angled mounting of the indicator stem it ended up showing less than there might be.

If the runout I interpreted is roughly correct, it's no wonder he needed that many spring passes to 'clean up' the stub. He probably is more or less correct that the stub is now 'round'. After that many passes, all the high spots have been knocked off, and what's left is something smaller in diameter than you may have wanted, but probably fairly round.

I looked at that lathe, but I didn't ask to hear it run. Now that I've heard it- hmm, that whine would drive me crazy, and the loose rocks sound would as well. I'm hoping that all gear head lathes aren't that noisy-

the **** noise you hear is cause is the crapy mic on my camera, for one, 2 i have built pellet guns with this last amonge other stuff like axels , barrel mods, recrowing of barrels, many many differnt guns parts that have very tight tolerences that have had to be very percise and this lathe has no problem doing that sort of work at all, ,
if you knew how to make a percision part which sounds like you cant , then you would know that muilty passes for finel clean up to the exact percice sizing is required, oh did i say that ,am i sounding like a know it all again , dam you know you gota lot to learn yet i think,oh wait i know you gota lot to learn yet..

have a great day ,

steverice
12-25-2010, 05:10 PM
am i sounding like a know it all again , dam you know you gota lot to learn yet i think,oh wait i know you gota lot to learn yet..

have a great day ,

Tell me about it, those who think they know it all really piss off those of us who do.

doctor demo
12-25-2010, 05:27 PM
Can We have this thread locked before It gets any farther away from real machining than it is.

Steve

.RC.
12-25-2010, 05:38 PM
ever wouder how good these machines are well here you go enjoy the video,

here is the youtube link feel free to leave comments

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMC_G22SuCM


When measuring with a dial indicator, the probe has to be at exactly 90 degrees to the work.

This is the test chart that came with my lathe... All measurements are in mm. But provided what you own does what you want it does not matter what anyone else thinks..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/testchart_Page_2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/testchart_Page_1.jpg

darryl
12-25-2010, 06:03 PM
Airsmith, I didn't mean to be ignorant in my response, I apologize. However, the points I was making still stand. I see someone else has seen an issue with the angle of the indicator- that's the first thing I saw amiss, then when you talk about spring passes and the accuracy of the lathe- well, let's just say we all have things to learn yet. I don't propose to know everything, yet I have learned a lot about lathework over the last 3 decades or so- and I am able to turn out some very accurate work. And I still blunder.

I know for a fact that if it takes that many spring passes to get to the point where no more metal comes off, then there are other factors that need to be addressed, and probably should have been if your intent was to educate by posting the video. I'm not knocking you- obviously, others have some issues with your video as well. Learn from it- I did.

Regarding the apparently (to me anyway) noisy lathe- maybe that's normal for it, and maybe is has been exaggerated by the poor mic, possibly. Seems a bit much to me though, thus my comment. My lathe is belt drive so I don't have direct experience with gearheads. Maybe there is something you can do to quiet it somewhat- change of lube perhaps- and maybe it's not an issue. So be it.

Happy holidays

oldtiffie
12-25-2010, 07:53 PM
For what its worth, I and several others here have the same lathe as Airsmith.

So far as I am concerned it is a very good lathe. Its basic (no power feeds and no quick-change gear-box) but it does most of what I want and does it very well. It is a solid and accurate performer. My main gripe is the 116 lowest speed but I may rectify that in due course.

If Airsmith had set the axis of his indicator on a radial line from the centre of the job, the indicator would have read correctly. Vertical and horizontal are only two of many possible radial alignments.

If Airsmith had not had the axis of the indicator aligned to a radial line on the job, the indicator would have in fact been multiplying any error, but he'd have had to have tilted it a long way for the error to be meaningful.

For instance:

Set an indicator axis vertical on a plane. Set the dial to zero.

Either move the plane up or the indicator down by 1.000" and the indicator will show 1.000" deflection. This is the same as having the indicator axis on a radial line on Airsmith's lathe.

Now tilt the indicator 10 degrees and move the plane up or the indicator down and the indicator shaft will move 1/cos 10* = 1.015" (0.015" error per inch).

20* = 1/cos 20 = 1.064" (0.064" error per inch).

30* = 1/cos 30 = 1.155" (0.155" error per inch).

The errors in %-age terms are not all that bad, but for absolute precision radial alignment is preferred.

But if the misalignment is no greater than 10* any error can be ignored in many cases. That 10* error of 0.015"/inch is the same as 0.00015" per 0.010" or about 1.5 "tenths" per 10 thou.

And that is OK in many cases for centreing purposes.

So, all in all, I think that Airsmith came out of it all pretty well.

oldtiffie
12-25-2010, 08:08 PM
Can We have this thread locked before It gets any farther away from real machining than it is.

Steve

I don't think so.

If it - even indirectly - clears up some ill-founded misconceptions about indicators its very much in line with "real machining".

doctor demo
12-25-2010, 10:17 PM
I don't think so.

If it - even indirectly - clears up some ill-founded misconceptions about indicators its very much in line with "real machining".
1620 rpm on approx. 1'' dia. aluminum with 9 finish passes and then put the indicator back on the work and turn on the lathe and watch the needle flutter slightly has nothing to do with accuracy of the lathe or real machining. However Your post about indicator alignment is worthy of it's own thread.

Steve

oldtiffie
12-25-2010, 11:42 PM
Thanks Steve.

You are correct as regards "accuracy" as I'd never use an indicator on anything at high speed - 20>100rpm max - as it does the indicator no good and it does not have time to recover and give a correct reading. It was quite possible that Airsmith's lathe had a 10 thou error but it was going too fast for the indicator to "catch" it and "settle down". High speed dial reversals are induced "flutter" which can "kill" a good indicator.

I always rotate the lathe by hand as it will pick up any eccentricities that may have occurred while cutting.

One other thing that Airsmith went over was the removal of the lead-screw and the saddle. I haven't had to do mine and I can assure you that the "Chinga-lish" manual (where the "drawings"?? are less useful than the text) is less than helpful in that regard, so A-S's explanation was of interest to me "just in case" ...................... !!

I put the stuff in about the accuracy of indicators as there is a lot of "off the top of the head" stuff said that is either not correct or not thought through.

My gear-box was noisy too until I drained the oil that came with it and replaced it with a quality oil and its as good as I want it as all gear-boxes are noisy to some degree. I use it as "way oil" as well - works well on my relatively light machines

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Lubrication/Machine_lub_oil1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Lubrication/Machine_lub_oil2.jpg

So perhaps Airsmith did us some unintended good after all.

doctor demo
12-26-2010, 12:27 AM
So perhaps Airsmith did us some unintended good after all.

Well, I gotta hand it to You....You stick with it until You find the good in everything. A good positive outlook.

Steve

oldtiffie
12-26-2010, 02:24 AM
That's largely true Steve - but not always.

There was a lot of content in Airsmith's video other that the single item that some fastened onto and "rubbished" both that narrow segment and Airsmith.

There was a lot in the video that may be wrong or may have been done better or otherwise - no argument there.

But there was a lot to be learned from it too.

Not all positive learning experiences are about what to do and how to to it correctly as that is quite often re-inforced with object lessons in how not to to something and to that end they are positive too.

All too often when Airsmith puts up a post or a video he is "jumped on" by a few as an "easy mark" and then when the rest of the heroes see how easy it is and how little chance there is of Airsmith adequately defending himself or re-acting the "pile on" starts.

There are better way of commenting on his work or criticising his work than this is.

Give him a break.

Airsmith needs to lift his game a bit too and get things into better order.

I've had the misfortune to see quite a few real life cases of sharks in a feeding frenzy which is not a pretty sight anymore than seeing some here attacking Airsmith is.

Same goes as regards the way some newer members are treated here on the now seldom occasions.

David Powell
12-26-2010, 09:57 AM
I had a few minutes to spare, duplicated Airsmith's trial and added a bit. Just running 2 passes, a final cut of only one thou, a HSS tool at about 1200 revs, with 1 1/2" sticking out from my 3 Jaw chinese chuck on my elderly Standard Modern lathe. I got a taper of 2 tenths large on outer end on the diameter. Running a cheap( one thou) dial gauge, roughly square on to the piece at 100 revs or so produced no discernible flicker. On revving it up I got a tiny flicker like Airsmiths, then the end of the dial gauge scratched the surface and I got a bit more I pushed and pulled on the end of the workpiece( 6061 aluminium) with the mandrel turning and got a reading of plus or minus a thou without much effort. My lathe is in regular use, both commercially and hobby work. I can make good piston valves for model locos. Kevin.s test while not exhaustive gives at least an idea of a lathe's capability. If I get a chance I will try it on the big lathe I sometimes run( EX Montreal loco works, I stand on a milk crate to run it, last bearing refit by angle grinder and shims and still satisfying its owners, how many lathes can screw cut the end of a flagpole? Bet I know the results already!) regards David Powell.

MotorradMike
12-26-2010, 10:14 AM
Hi Kevin:

I watched your video and enjoyed it. Your narration is much easier to follow than your writing.
I'm not sure what you've managed to measure but the thing I got out of it was the sound of the gearbox. My B2227L sounds the same. I could tell what gear yours was in by the sound!
The whine at 1620 is sweet.
The quietest speed seems to be 550.
The rest are grumbly but if yours still sounds the same after all the miles you've put on it, I'm guessing this machine will serve me well for a long time.

Thanks

aboard_epsilon
12-26-2010, 10:23 AM
i could imagine doing Kevin's test on the cheapest lathe i could buy...even an electric drill powered wood lathe ..and getting the same results ..

one step ..just one step up from his test ..would be to chuck a 3 inch x say 6 inches long bar in it ...........make your cuts ..and measure the diameters at each end after.

after that stick 1 foot bar in it ..with it supported by the tailstock ..

then you will be back asking ..how to adjust the tailstock !

all the best.markj

John Stevenson
12-26-2010, 10:37 AM
T

I always rotate the lathe by hand .





Saves using it :D

Doozer
12-26-2010, 10:58 AM
We should all let airsmith just enjoy his mind trip. He really isn't hurting anybody. Just smile and wave. --Doozer

airsmith282
12-26-2010, 12:49 PM
the idea of the test was to show how accuratly it turns metal and with very little run out at that, iam sick and tired of people knocking the chinese and taiwan people for there so called Lack of QC in their products that they make for us, expecially in the machinest areas, weather for hobby or business , alot of you knock them, and thats plain out wronge , some of you iam sure can not do any better in fact ill bet worse.. oh but lest not make fun of or knock down the white guy that would not be very nice, iam not a 3 decade old machinest, and times matters not how long your at something its how good you are, and even thou sometimes ill not do things as some say the right way , i can get the job done and done 100% right what methoed is used sometimes dont matter either, anything past 3 inchs i use the tail stock and follower rest so tapers cant happen,flash news boys i do it right, you cant free spin past 4 inchs and get it totaly accurate with out support, i dont grind my lathe bits like alot of you do and really i dont see the benifit to all that fancy crap angles if in the end its still cutting the metal iam still not turning tapers,

any moron should know just as well as anyone with a brain, that all 3 jaw chucks have some run out and so do 4 jaw chucks and, every one knows that you can not take a peice of metal for example and run down lets say 3 inchs on one side then flip it and turn down the same length and then have it were its perfect the entire lenght that is one law of physics that is solid at least for humans and our equipment at present time,

youll always have run out at the chuck end and any thing seen at the chuck is usualy 3 times or more less on the turnned area,

having to do fininsh passes is a must on all hobby base or none production class equipment from what i have seen , i can not speak for hi end production stuff, now why is this you might ask , well tool deflection carrage deflection the metal it self when cut deflects as well weather its suppoted or not ,so several fininsh pass's are needed other wise you will have taper issues and you will have alot more run out to,

and i dont care if the lathe or mill is made by jet BP busy bee, HF grizzly the all have the same thing in comman, even MS and SB same deal, any one that says different is a lier and wants attention..

just cause you gota big tool dont mean its any better

its not the size its what you can do with it that counts, now that sounds just wronge but its a fact ,

my first lathe was defentaly a POS 7x12 but when it was working it was accurate, but it did blow up on me after 2 months , so sence then i have had the busy bee 10x18 which rules in my opnion and the stuff i have built on it and still do is just amazing, if you dont take time to do things right and you dont calulate the need for fininsh pass metal that comes off, then iam sorry your not much of a machinest in my opnion , the 10x18 b2227ls can compete rather well , i have even made a few car parts with it and even i can do better then the manufactors did in the first place on the parts, now thats sad, but alot of you seem to think cause i cant spell right or some of the methoeds i have are to YOU and YOU alone are not correct then i must be some half wit, you dont even know me, and likley never will. thank god for that..

for the record 99% of the time the sharks jump on someone in order to hide there wish to be as good as someone not as old at the hobby as them,
its called jelousy, and there is alot of it in fact it reaks sometimes,

also if any of you would like to prove your better then the china man making mills and lathes then go work with them and ill be you wont last an hour in the place cause you wont know what the hell your doing,

making the tool to make stuff is alot more skill then then the stuff you make on the tools .

if you make crap you get crap out of it,

look at all you HF worshipers out there and they sell a ton of crap machinest tools and all you guys can do is bitch about haiving to do this or that before you can even use it, and then you still complain ,

get a grip and get a life, in this field hobby or business you get what you pay for, when i got my busy bee lathe i took it out of the box pluged it in and was up and running right away , and i went brand new not used i still would have bought one used if there would have been one and it was in good shape , and USA iron is no dam better new or used , and i seen alot of guys complain about that stuff as well.just not as much after all cant make your slefs look to bad now can you to easy to pick on someone thats not so commanly around..

like i also said before you dont want to know how much stuff you buy is really made in china or india and so and has a made in USA label on it,

what do i know, well honeslty alot more then alot of you thats for dam sure,

oh and Evan who ever told you that the stars we see in the sky now were burnt out along time ago , lied to you, ,

so if you say what we see now was gone even thousands of years ago your still wornge, and there is no proof to back up that , any where , unless of course you were there when they burnt out thoes thouands or millions of years ago, and the human race did not exist at least on earth then, and we all know you werent around then either, nore was the guy that wrote the statment unless he was a time travler and you know him or the guy that wrote it knows him, and still there is no proof,

turn off a light it stops transmitting its light period now thats physics and thats they way it is..

oh but the stars are 70 billion light years away that burnt out and it takes 70 billion years for that light to get here, well it was hear and gone
along time ago and there is still thoes so called same stars showing light, sorry but i gota cry out BS
the lights went out 70 billion years ago then there out and thats all there is to it,
and besids your only guessing that it takes 70 billion years to travel that distance at the speed of light, you dont even know no one ones how long a light year is its assumed only that its 1 year which is incorrect,

if you travel at the speed of light you travel distance of that speed in 1 hour,

if you travel 100 or 1000 times the speed of light you cover alot more ground even faster dont you,

a day to us we say is 24 hours what if it turns out some day that we find out its really 6 hours or 8 hours personaly iam hopiing for it being 12 hours cause that makes sence to me and its the bet i got going on...

so in total , dont belive everthing you read in books, they are only form someone elses view point only , just like history books are form someones vew point and opnion,

now if you can offer us solid proof that we still now and will also see for the next 70 billion years stars that burnt out that long ago then ill belive you but you say it takes as long to diminsh the light as it does to travel so they are now cancelled out, lol

i cant belive it i just proved to you that a star burnt out 70 bilion years ago is now burnt out according to your phycis its still producing light BS , but according to my under standing which must surley far surpass what you read , it was already out 70 billion years ago and also stoped producing light then as well . so its not there now its been 70 billion years..

i can go on for hours proving flaws in so called laws of phycis as we have been taught it, CAN you , sorry to pick on you Evan but you have done your share of comming at me alot now its my turn.. and for the record aliens from other planets are real and have been here on and off for thousands of years helping us out and still are now.. want proof there is all kinds of it on the net
oh but waite not every thing you read is true , so take a hisrory lesson or 2 as well.even the bible shows proof as does the painting of jesus with the aliens do your home work ,also try and find the info king james and other chuchs had taken from the bible on purpose, so we would not know the whole truth, you gota study and read the bible and all its versions to know whats going on and has gone on for the last 8 thousand years, but to get the complete bible before it was stripped and stuff was changed youll never find that copy of it, and lets now all forget what really went down at roswell 63 years ago and its only been sence then our technoledgy has amazing sky rocketed cause some dumb as shot the ship or ships down some how by accident, woops did the miitary screw up , 3 days later they tried to cover it up and look what happen in the world sence then as well ..tsk tsk tsk,

i can keep going on this subject for days and weeks infact

have a nice day guys

John Stevenson
12-26-2010, 01:05 PM
.. and for the record aliens from other planets are real and have been here on and off for thousands of years helping us out and still are now.. want proof there is all kinds of it on the net


A classic example of why not to drink and type............

.

MotorradMike
12-26-2010, 01:29 PM
A classic example of why not to drink and type............

.

It's only noon here.

John Stevenson
12-26-2010, 01:38 PM
It's only noon here.

Which proves some people are more dedicated than others :D

David Powell
12-26-2010, 01:51 PM
I have, and believe you me I reckon that plenty of them are aliens! Canada is a strange country, partly a modern city based world and partly a nearly barren wasteland with isolated towns. Certainly the Internet has brought us together much more than ever before and change will occur.Sometimes folks in one part have little or nothing in common with those in other parts, and even Federal politicians have little grasp of the wide differences. We have one political party( Bloc Quebecois) whose Published aim to dismantle the country would get them jailed or shot elsewhere, which often holds the balance of power.Maybe for reasons different from Airsmith's I am prepared to believe there may be aliens here.IF you dont believe me take a look at Mackenzie King.s decision making processes for a sample. regards David Powell.

S_J_H
12-26-2010, 02:18 PM
the idea of the test was to show how accuratly it turns metal and with very little run out at that, iam sick and tired of people knocking the chinese and taiwan people for there so called Lack of QC in their products that they make for us, expecially in the machinest areas, weather for hobby or business , alot of you knock them, and thats plain out wronge , some of you iam sure can not do any better in fact ill bet worse.. oh but lest not make fun of or knock down the white guy that would not be very nice, iam not a 3 decade old machinest, and times matters not how long your at something its how good you are, and even thou sometimes ill not do things as some say the right way , i can get the job done and done 100% right what methoed is used sometimes dont matter either, anything past 3 inchs i use the tail stock and follower rest so tapers cant happen,flash news boys i do it right, you cant free spin past 4 inchs and get it totaly accurate with out support, i dont grind my lathe bits like alot of you do and really i dont see the benifit to all that fancy crap angles if in the end its still cutting the metal iam still not turning tapers,

any moron should know just as well as anyone with a brain, that all 3 jaw chucks have some run out and so do 4 jaw chucks and, every one knows that you can not take a peice of metal for example and run down lets say 3 inchs on one side then flip it and turn down the same length and then have it were its perfect the entire lenght that is one law of physics that is solid at least for humans and our equipment at present time,

youll always have run out at the chuck end and any thing seen at the chuck is usualy 3 times or more less on the turnned area,

having to do fininsh passes is a must on all hobby base or none production class equipment from what i have seen , i can not speak for hi end production stuff, now why is this you might ask , well tool deflection carrage deflection the metal it self when cut deflects as well weather its suppoted or not ,so several fininsh pass's are needed other wise you will have taper issues and you will have alot more run out to,

and i dont care if the lathe or mill is made by jet BP busy bee, HF grizzly the all have the same thing in comman, even MS and SB same deal, any one that says different is a lier and wants attention..

just cause you gota big tool dont mean its any better

its not the size its what you can do with it that counts, now that sounds just wronge but its a fact ,

my first lathe was defentaly a POS 7x12 but when it was working it was accurate, but it did blow up on me after 2 months , so sence then i have had the busy bee 10x18 which rules in my opnion and the stuff i have built on it and still do is just amazing, if you dont take time to do things right and you dont calulate the need for fininsh pass metal that comes off, then iam sorry your not much of a machinest in my opnion , the 10x18 b2227ls can compete rather well , i have even made a few car parts with it and even i can do better then the manufactors did in the first place on the parts, now thats sad, but alot of you seem to think cause i cant spell right or some of the methoeds i have are to YOU and YOU alone are not correct then i must be some half wit, you dont even know me, and likley never will. thank god for that..

for the record 99% of the time the sharks jump on someone in order to hide there wish to be as good as someone not as old at the hobby as them,
its called jelousy, and there is alot of it in fact it reaks sometimes,

also if any of you would like to prove your better then the china man making mills and lathes then go work with them and ill be you wont last an hour in the place cause you wont know what the hell your doing,

making the tool to make stuff is alot more skill then then the stuff you make on the tools .

if you make crap you get crap out of it,

look at all you HF worshipers out there and they sell a ton of crap machinest tools and all you guys can do is bitch about haiving to do this or that before you can even use it, and then you still complain ,

get a grip and get a life, in this field hobby or business you get what you pay for, when i got my busy bee lathe i took it out of the box pluged it in and was up and running right away , and i went brand new not used i still would have bought one used if there would have been one and it was in good shape , and USA iron is no dam better new or used , and i seen alot of guys complain about that stuff as well.just not as much after all cant make your slefs look to bad now can you to easy to pick on someone thats not so commanly around..

like i also said before you dont want to know how much stuff you buy is really made in china or india and so and has a made in USA label on it,

what do i know, well honeslty alot more then alot of you thats for dam sure,

oh and Evan who ever told you that the stars we see in the sky now were burnt out along time ago , lied to you, ,

so if you say what we see now was gone even thousands of years ago your still wornge, and there is no proof to back up that , any where , unless of course you were there when they burnt out thoes thouands or millions of years ago, and the human race did not exist at least on earth then, and we all know you werent around then either, nore was the guy that wrote the statment unless he was a time travler and you know him or the guy that wrote it knows him, and still there is no proof,

turn off a light it stops transmitting its light period now thats physics and thats they way it is..

oh but the stars are 70 billion light years away that burnt out and it takes 70 billion years for that light to get here, well it was hear and gone
along time ago and there is still thoes so called same stars showing light, sorry but i gota cry out BS
the lights went out 70 billion years ago then there out and thats all there is to it,
and besids your only guessing that it takes 70 billion years to travel that distance at the speed of light, you dont even know no one ones how long a light year is its assumed only that its 1 year which is incorrect,

if you travel at the speed of light you travel distance of that speed in 1 hour,

if you travel 100 or 1000 times the speed of light you cover alot more ground even faster dont you,

a day to us we say is 24 hours what if it turns out some day that we find out its really 6 hours or 8 hours personaly iam hopiing for it being 12 hours cause that makes sence to me and its the bet i got going on...

so in total , dont belive everthing you read in books, they are only form someone elses view point only , just like history books are form someones vew point and opnion,

now if you can offer us solid proof that we still now and will also see for the next 70 billion years stars that burnt out that long ago then ill belive you but you say it takes as long to diminsh the light as it does to travel so they are now cancelled out, lol

i cant belive it i just proved to you that a star burnt out 70 bilion years ago is now burnt out according to your phycis its still producing light BS , but according to my under standing which must surley far surpass what you read , it was already out 70 billion years ago and also stoped producing light then as well . so its not there now its been 70 billion years..

i can go on for hours proving flaws in so called laws of phycis as we have been taught it, CAN you , sorry to pick on you Evan but you have done your share of comming at me alot now its my turn.. and for the record aliens from other planets are real and have been here on and off for thousands of years helping us out and still are now.. want proof there is all kinds of it on the net
oh but waite not every thing you read is true , so take a hisrory lesson or 2 as well.even the bible shows proof as does the painting of jesus with the aliens do your home work ,also try and find the info king james and other chuchs had taken from the bible on purpose, so we would not know the whole truth, you gota study and read the bible and all its versions to know whats going on and has gone on for the last 8 thousand years, but to get the complete bible before it was stripped and stuff was changed youll never find that copy of it, and lets now all forget what really went down at roswell 63 years ago and its only been sence then our technoledgy has amazing sky rocketed cause some dumb as shot the ship or ships down some how by accident, woops did the miitary screw up , 3 days later they tried to cover it up and look what happen in the world sence then as well ..tsk tsk tsk,

i can keep going on this subject for days and weeks infact

have a nice day guys


Classic stuff!!! :eek:

Airsmiths test video shows the absolute roundness the lathe can cut, which is the limitation of the spindles bearing setup. I have seen similar results on my Chinese made machines in that price range.
I also have 3 old plain bearing lathes. A 11x24 Artisan, SB9A and a Stark no3

The little Stark's spindle is by far the most accurate in my collection of machines. Almost undetectable runout using my Brown&Sharpe .00005" incremented DTI.

But how straight the machine cuts over some distance is a bit more meaningful to me.

Airsmith has a good sense of humor though-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWvp4BcvDxM

airsmith282
12-26-2010, 02:19 PM
A classic example of why not to drink and type............

.

so tell us then john, what is it you belive in or know facts about if your so well educated and smart ,,

oh and i dont drink and i dont do drugs,

but you would be suprised what i know that you dont,

perhaps you dont want to know or accept that there could be influence from other races that are not of earth ,

its very comman response to have some one say someone is on drugs or a crack pot ecpecially when they mention aliens,

what the hell do you think we are ok humans thats what we call ourselfs , but are we not aliens to ,

well someone from mars is a martian, pluto plutoian and so on

and the grays are not asgaurds you watch to much sg1 if you think that,

so john tell us what you know,

John Stevenson
12-26-2010, 02:24 PM
They only grey's I know are the early Myfords and Squirrels, mind you since they painted them green I think they look a lot better, Myford that is not the squirrels.

.

airsmith282
12-26-2010, 02:24 PM
Classic stuff!!! :eek:

Airsmiths test video shows the absolute roundness the lathe can cut, which is the limitation of the spindles bearing setup. I have seen similar results on my Chinese made machines in that price range.
I also have 3 old plain bearing lathes. A 11x24 Artisan, SB9A and a Stark no3

The little Stark's spindle is by far the most accurate in my collection of machines. Almost undetectable runout using my Brown&Sharpe .00005" incremented DTI.

But how straight the machine cuts over some distance is a bit more meaningful to me.

Airsmith has a good sense of humor though-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWvp4BcvDxM

keep in mind i was board as hell when i did that funny faces video i did one other one to that was a bit nuts but hey gota have some fun when your only half awake and board as hell,

John Stevenson
12-26-2010, 02:27 PM
keep in mind i was board as hell when i did that funny faces video i did one other one to that was a bit nuts but hey gota have some fun when your only half awake and board as hell,

Well it stopped the dog from barking, now it's hiding behind the sofa wimpering.......

airsmith282
12-26-2010, 02:56 PM
Well it stopped the dog from barking, now it's hiding behind the sofa wimpering.......

mission accomplished then

lololo muhaaaaaa hahahahaheheheheheheheh

oldtiffie
12-26-2010, 06:28 PM
They only grey's I know are the early Myfords and Squirrels, mind you since they painted them green I think they look a lot better, Myford that is not the squirrels.

.

You might ask Alistair about the Royal Scots Greys - I'm sure he'd recall them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Scots_Greys

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Scots_Dragoon_Guards

oldtiffie
12-26-2010, 07:06 PM
One of the main reasons I bought my BB 2227L 10 x 18 lathe was that I was looking for a small lathe and a mill. The 2227L 3-in-1 was a good choice as it did very well until I had to buy first a HF-45 square column mill and then Sieg X3 mill. At that time I needed to fit a taper-turning attachment the lathe (still not done!!) and so the milling head came off.

That 3-in-1 combo was limited but is was very accurate, solid and versatile.

Here are some pics of the lathe in its 3-in 1 form:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Lathe_misc/Lathemill1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Lathe_misc/Lathe2.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Lathe_misc/AirSmith06.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Lathe_misc/AirSmith09.jpg

sasquatch
12-26-2010, 09:20 PM
Re: "Old Tiffee,s Shop Pics",,,,,

In your,e second pic, is that strapping on the wall in the background, it appears to be spaced on quite close centers?
Interesting Building construction, Some of your,e own Construction?

As to the accuracy of the Craftex 10x18 lathe, the two i,m aware of in my area i,ve never heard any complaints.

oldtiffie
12-26-2010, 09:47 PM
Re: "Old Tiffee,s Shop Pics",,,,,

In your,e second pic, is that strapping on the wall in the background, it appears to be spaced on quite close centers?
Interesting Building construction, Some of your,e own Construction?

As to the accuracy of the Craftex 10x18 lathe, the two i,m aware of in my area i,ve never heard any complaints.

Thanks sasquatch.

They are only 70 x 19 Kiln-dried hard-wood horizontal straps at about 140mm centres screw-fixed to vertical 70 x 19mm KDHW battens which are screw-fixed to the shed wall "C" section steel girts.

The KDHW is very stable, "works" easily, is split-resistant (screws etc.) but while expensive was worth every cent. I used it in my previous shed/shop.

I just pre-drill and put plain bullet-head nails and bend them up to suit the tools I want to hang on the KDHW straps. I can re-arrange or fit in new stuff to suit. It does not absorb a lot of moisture and so protects the tools hanging on it.

Here are some more pics:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Shop_and_tools/Shed-ext2.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Shop_and_tools/Shop_tools2.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Shop_and_tools/Shop_tools3.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Shop_and_tools/Shop_tools7.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Shop_and_tools/Shed-ext1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Shop_and_tools/Shed-ext3.jpg

lakeside53
12-26-2010, 10:18 PM
The second picture shows tools organized just just like Sir John's shop:D

oldtiffie
12-26-2010, 10:59 PM
Not quite.

No BP mill here.

lakeside53
12-26-2010, 11:41 PM
My mistake.. and I can see your floor...:cool:

darryl
12-27-2010, 12:43 AM
Back to the 10x18 lathe- I am impressed by how much metal appears to be in the base. Should be a pretty rigid machine.

S_J_H
12-27-2010, 12:57 AM
Airsmith,
I think I came down a bit hard on you once. I apologize to you now.
It just ain't that serious, You're OK in my Book!!
:D
Happy Holidaze!
Steve

JoeFin
12-27-2010, 01:14 AM
Where are the machines

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa83/Freakindj/Shop-calibration012.jpg

randyc
12-27-2010, 01:27 AM
I think I came down a bit hard on you once. I apologize to you now.
It just ain't that serious, You're OK in my Book!!

That seems to happen a lot - here and elsewhere. Things are written that would never be stated in a face-to-face conversation. Happily some folks like S_J_H courteously acknowledge an error and the rest of us can learn from that.

Cheers,
Randy C

John Stevenson
12-27-2010, 07:36 AM
The second picture shows tools organized just just like Sir John's shop:D

No mine are used, not posed.

thedieter
12-27-2010, 04:20 PM
Haven't been on for a while but enjoyed some fun reading today!

Happy New year to all!

It may not have been mentioned I don't feel right about using a plunger type indicator as shown in the video. Kind of like chalk on a blackboard. For an accurate reading, I prefer the small indicators with lever that eliminates chatter.

As an Amateur astronomer, I delve into the same subjects that are discussed in this post with interest. Lately there is research into how gravity of massive objects in deep space affect the speed of light such that it lenses the light from objects behind them into multiple images. This indicates that gravity affects the speed of light. Of course Einstein had it figured out a long time ago.

A helpful tip that I just found out...I am using Google Chrome browser for this and it does spell check automatically. Sweet!

Best regards, Jack

John Stevenson
12-27-2010, 04:32 PM
This indicates that gravity affects the speed of light. Of course Einstein had it figured out a long time ago.


Best regards, Jack

Others got there as well, drop a Lucas motorcycle light and it proves the same theory.
Gravity affects it that much the light goes out.

Joseph Lucas (12 April 1834 - 27 December 1902)

.RC.
12-27-2010, 04:42 PM
Others got there as well, drop a Lucas motorcycle light and it proves the same theory.
Gravity affects it that much the light goes out.



I will have to take your word on that.. I am not old enough to actually have ever seen a Lucas made light that worked.. :D

sasquatch
12-27-2010, 10:29 PM
Thanks to "OldTiffie" for posting those most interesting pictures of his shop.
Interesting framing construction not usually seen in my area.

oldtiffie
12-27-2010, 10:44 PM
All the way through this and another thread there is hardly a bad word about this lathe and a lot of good ones from satisfied owners.

That is certainly worthy of comment for an "Asian" made machine.

I note that most of the owners of that lathe are mostly in Canada (as is BusyBee) and not so much in the USA.

airsmith282
12-28-2010, 12:32 AM
you know if the americans gave busy bee a chance they might just stop buying junk at Harbour freight and change their opinion of the made in china stuff ,, all companys have good stuff and junk but it seems HF does not follow this rule and seem to have a ton pile of nothing but junk, at lease this is how i read on the fourms all the time nothing but complaints , well then stop buying there and there wont be any more crabbying its not rocket science after all..

even i dont buy every tool that princess auto has i know the good stuff from the junk i just dont buy the junk stuff , i did buy my first lathe from princess auto never again , lesson learned there fast,

Mcgyver
12-28-2010, 12:59 AM
you know if the americans gave busy bee a chance they might just stop buying junk at Harbour freight and change their opinion of the made in china stuff ,,

same stuff isn't it? aren't the two owners family members?

I watched some of your video and what jumped out at me was you took a light cut then a second cut and it was still making quite a large chip on the second cut. that's actually a test for a lathe, if its worn the parts won't mate perfectly there'll be spring in the system; carriage to bed, crosslide, compound. In a perfect world nothing would come off on the second cut, worlds not perfect but it should be next to nothing on a good lathe in good shape - the better the bearing surfaces fit the better it will take the load and not spring. The good news is if the headstock bearings are doing their job well, if you wanted to the fit of the above mentioned bearing surfaces can be fixed. Nothing wrong with you having a lot of fun with it as is if it suits your purpose, but imo, that video shows some big quality/accuracy issues. I've got lathes in my garage in the same state, not trying to beat you up on it, but it is what it is.

Bottom line is creating very accurate and well mating bearing surfaces is a lot work so its tough to do on the price points for these machines. But you can always take one and make it perfect, if you want accuracy/quality ./...which since you're putting vids up on accuracy is i take it the point. I've 3 fill size western world mills right now but the most accurate and smoothest x/y component I have is a small one i scraped top to bottom from a set of cheapo mini mill castings.

Black_Moons
12-28-2010, 04:02 AM
Mcgyver: No, You are confused, Its Grizzy and busybee that are owned by the same family. Lots of americans think grizzy is better quality...
I bought my 12x36 at busybee actualy.. And my Swivel head bandsaw.. Both have served me quite well, The bandsaw did'nt even come with free chinese beach sand in the gearbox! (The lathe however came with extra, to make up for it)

philbur
12-28-2010, 05:37 AM
How does the logic "owned by the same family" lead to "must be the same quality" work.:confused:

Phil:)

airsmith282
12-28-2010, 09:45 AM
How does the logic "owned by the same family" lead to "must be the same quality" work.:confused:

Phil:)

it doesnt he i just making up and excuse of some sort the HF guy is paying alot less therfore the Quaility is ****, the busy bee owner pays upto 3 times the price and get the really good stuff,,

hench you get what you pay for is solid fact that its not the china man that is the problem

to answer the other question, there tool deflection deflecttion of hte metal it self carriage deflcetion as well , all play in part in hobby class machines for needing to take the extra passes mind you i have also seen some dam hi end stuff where extra passes were aslo needed just not as many as a hobby machine does, and most often the guy that does not do the extra pass's makes the crapier part in the end..

even the best machine on the market that man makes can not turn down both ends when the peice if fliped and have it all come out 100% smooth and free of any out of roundness defect ,

Mcgyver
12-28-2010, 09:53 AM
Mcgyver: No, You are confused, Its Grizzy and busybee that are owned by the same family)

ok, thanks


w does the logic "owned by the same family" lead to "must be the same quality" work

In my experience certain cultures tend to operate as family conglomerates. They don't broadcast it but the effect is each firm acts like a division of the family conglomerate...many are international or global....it would be quite logical in fact typical in such an environment to find buyers collaborating; bulk buying identical or very similair products from the same factories would be one way this would show up

Mcgyver
12-28-2010, 10:28 AM
to answer the other question, there tool deflection deflecttion of hte metal it self carriage deflcetion as well , all play in part in hobby class machines for needing to take the extra passes mind you i have also seen some dam hi end stuff where extra passes were aslo needed just not as many as a hobby machine does, and most often the guy that does not do the extra pass's makes the crapier part in the end..



I didn't ask a question, I explained that that extent of deflection on a light cut comes from spring in the support structure due to poorly fitting bearing surfaces. Like the picture JT put up recently showing the area of contact on a mill's dovetail, if the various bearing parts aren't in good contact they will more readily bend when loaded leading to the situation were subsequent cuts remove far more than they should.


ever wouder how good these machines are well here you go enjoy the video,

You made a thread about the video and how accurate the lathe is, I'm explaining why it suggests the opposite. There's no denying what it shows. You get to decide if it is acceptable to you or not or whether you want to fix it (its fixable)....but accuracy depends on accurate and well fitting bearing surfaces which I don't think this lathe has.

The reality is whether its a new low price lathe or old stuff with wear its a common problem for home shop equipment; there's only so many dollars to acquire machines with and so much you can expect for a dollar; no free lunch. So we often end up with machines that need lots of time spent coaxing them into a proper fit, in that we are in the same boat...but I think its clear what the video shows :confused:

airsmith282
12-28-2010, 11:17 AM
just got done cheacking all the bearings out and all are good and tight as they should be also all the shafts are also all tight and no play at all, keep in minds to ill get alot more miliage out of my bearings to cause iam using 30w and the machin only calls for 10w or 20w busy bee advised me to use the 30w for better riunning and ,longer life as well ,it seems there right cause everything is sitll well with in specs after all the use my lathe has seen , my gibs for my cross slide of course are all tight, and same for my compund in fact i lock the compound when turrning, , so the only slack i can see it having is going to be in the carriage and all lathes have a certian amount of that ,other wise the carriage would not move up and down the bed ways ,

the machine is very accurate, perhaps i might have done my setup for the test incoorectly so ill try it another way and see what happens back in a bit with new results if there are any to report

airsmith282
12-28-2010, 11:40 AM
ok guys here is results the new setup and youll see its shows 100% better improvment and this time only 2 cleanup pass's using the same peice of metal,,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZUoxoNlJvM

Fasttrack
12-28-2010, 02:13 PM
just got done cheacking all the bearings out and all are good and tight as they should be also all the shafts are also all tight and no play at all, keep in minds to ill get alot more miliage out of my bearings to cause iam using 30w and the machin only calls for 10w or 20w busy bee advised me to use the 30w for better riunning and ,longer life as well ,it seems there right cause everything is sitll well with in specs after all the use my lathe has seen , my gibs for my cross slide of course are all tight, and same for my compund in fact i lock the compound when turrning, , so the only slack i can see it having is going to be in the carriage and all lathes have a certian amount of that ,other wise the carriage would not move up and down the bed ways ,

the machine is very accurate, perhaps i might have done my setup for the test incoorectly so ill try it another way and see what happens back in a bit with new results if there are any to report

What Mcgyver said is still true. I'm not picking on your lathe - I've got a Smithy that falls into the same category as your BusyBee. They aren't bad machines, but we have to be realistic about them.

Obviously, your machine works great for what you want it to do. But that spring action isn't just because it is a small lathe, it IS because the bearing surfaces are not mating as well as they could.

The gibs will feel tight and the operation of the compound/cross slide/carriage can all feel wonderful but it may only be riding on a few contact points. If that is the case, then you see a lot more "spring" during cutting. Unfortunately, the only way I know of to accurately and quickly quantify this is to blue up a precision straight edge or prism and touch the bearing surfaces. If it was properly setup, then you would see blue spots the entire lenght. My guess is, you are only going to see a handful of blue points. I haven't checked the inside dovetails on my smithy, but a quick check on the top of the dovetails with my surface plate shows the problem. You'd never know it until you spot them. I'll take a picture of the process later.

Also, I made the same mistake you have in checking the "accuracy" of the lathe. I machined a part in a three jaw chuck and then stuck a 0.0005" indicator on it and it showed no runout. This was a HEAVILY used lathe from 1943. I think Darryl pointed it out earlier in the thread: this only measures non-cylindrical errors in the headstock bearing. Almost any lathe you check this way is going to look fantastic. Essentially, you are canceling out error. Even if the spindle itself doesn't run true, once you cut a piece that is held in the spindle, it's going to show no runnout. What you need to do is determine whether or not the piece you just turned is actually concentric with the spindle.

That might be hard to follow but think about it this way: pretend for a moment that the three jaw chuck was your actual spindle. You clamp a piece of stock in the three jaw and you notice a little bit of runout. In our game here, that is the "actual" runnout from the spindle (it's not, of course, we're just pretending). Now, when you cut the stock, that runnout disappears. What you've done is created a new center line about which the part is round. But if you remove the part, turn it 90* and put it back in, the indicator shows all kinds of runnout.

To test the bearings in your spindle, you want to machine your test piece and then measure it independently. You can put it on a test bench and rotate it or just measure it with a micrometer every 30* or so. Record your values and see if it is round.

What is more interesting is how straight it can turn. You can try quantifying the amount of taper it turns using a micrometer as well. You'll have to pay special attention to the deflection of the test piece, though.

By the way, you are slightly mistaken with some of the assumptions you made regarding light and the stars. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the fact that you are thinking for yourself and trying to figure things out. But the conclusions you've come to are ... well ... not quite right.

philbur
12-28-2010, 02:46 PM
Once again, this says something about the spindle bearings but nothing about the lathe.

Phil:)


ok guys here is results the new setup and youll see its shows 100% better improvment and this time only 2 cleanup pass's using the same peice of metal,,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZUoxoNlJvM

brian Rupnow
12-28-2010, 03:30 PM
Well, I agree with the part about aliens already being here. Just go downtown in Barrie on Saturday night when they close down that big Country and Western bar that used to be the old Woolworths store. ----Damned aliens all over the place!!!.

airsmith282
12-28-2010, 03:37 PM
Once again, this says something about the spindle bearings but nothing about the lathe.

Phil:)

you do know what run out is right , at least i asume you do, the lesser the run out the more accuratly it can turn the metal round which makes one hell of a difference in how well what you make on the lathe gets assemblel, also has to do witih how accurat you can drill ream and bore things out, if you have skipped sposts that are cridicial then a poor lathe that has to much run out will not make the parts properly, also i might also add, the bearings are just fine, noise levels out of these and any gear heads that you hear on a video is determened by a few things

1 quaility of the mike in the cam,
2 the size of room or area you are in echos and so on
3 gear head lathes are alot more noisy then an all best driven lathe that is a fact.
4 how close the mic of the cam is to the lathe will also make things sound likey worse then they are which either way all is fine with my lathe ,

the second video shows with the new set up that there is even less run out then the first way i had it set up, in which you guys said the first way it was set up was not correct, the same peice of metal was used and turned once again but with only 2 finel.

all lathes have tool deflection so you have to do finish pass's any real machinest will tell you that..

also i have yet to see a machine that has such hi end bearings that it wont allow even the tinlyest of side force movment,

there is no such thing as PERFECT 100% PERFECT, if you belive that then you would also belive that the sky is falling

dockrat
12-28-2010, 03:44 PM
there is no such thing as PERFECT 100% PERFECT, if you belive that then you would also belive that the sky is falling

Or that we are surrounded by aliens :rolleyes:

darryl
12-28-2010, 04:57 PM
I'm happy to see that your runout is very low, or virtually non-existent according to the gauge. That's about what I would expect from a decent tapered roller bearing with a proper pre-load.

Now I'm curious about your spring passes- you say this is with only two. Does that mean that you quit after two passes, or that no more cutting took place after two passes-

This is not really a specific question for airsmith, but a general question, taking into account all the means by which a tool can keep cutting without being further advanced into the workpiece. Fastrack got into this deeper and raised many appropriate points. In my own machining activities, I sort of automatically account for the various plays and find that with a correct setup and tool grinding, the first spring pass takes a tad more material off, but the second seldom takes more than dust. When it works this way, I'm satisfied that all is well. I tend to see this in another light as well- when you are taking a cut, you are basically cutting a thread, leaving high ridges behind, then with a spring pass you are most likely cutting much of those crests off because it's unlikely that you'd be feeding the tool in exactly the same relationship to the rotational position of the spindle. A second spring pass averages out the peaks that may be left, and should then have things about as even as practical, given the finite amount of time you'd want to spend on every operation. This is diametrically opposite to thread cutting, where you want to leave the crest untouched during the entire operation, except for a cleanup deburring.

The geometry of the cutting edge could be such that most of this 'crest, or peak' cutting is done on the first pass, which then means the spring pass will show only dust if anything. I would characterize this by saying that the cutting tool will be working with the main pressure point to remove the bulk of material, then a shearing action is done by a trailing edge that's nearly parallel to the workpiece. Where there's a large nose radius, there's likely less crest being left behind, but more likeliness of the tool deflecting away from the workpiece. This situation in turn would mean a spring pass is going to remove significant material, and may result in several subsequent spring passes also removing material.

Where this is the case, I would be likely to assess the condition of the cutting tool, regrind possibly- with the aim of achieving a balance between minimal tool deflection, surface finish, and the least number of finish passes required.

Of course as soon as you change materials and/or diameters, there will be differences showing up.

In part here we start seeing the qualities of the lathe. There could well be essentially zero spindle runout, but enough motion in the slides to allow unwanted relative motion in the position of the cutting edge relative to the workpiece. On my own lathe, I took a few measures to control this. One was to add a spring-loaded downforce mechanism to the rear of the carriage. Once the rear carriage surface was constrained to be in constant contact with the rear flat way, things improved. With some careful refitting of the compound slide surfaces and an improvement in the gib adjusting system, things improved again. With a newly made crosslide nut and leadscrew, things improved again. With a direct-to-crosslide tool mounting, another improvement is made- but this step precluded the use of the compound. The final element that I haven't yet addressed is the poor mounting of the toolpost to the crosslide- there's too much flex here for my liking, but I've lived with it so far.

I can measure the same essentially non-existent runout on my lathe, but that may be of little value if these other factors aren't included in the analysis.

Considering my limited budget and basically a hobby-only use for a lathe, my next 'upgrade' would probably be to that same lathe that airsmith and others have. To be realistic, I'd consider that my first projects would be to optimize all these potential 'error' spots. When I looked at that lathe in the showroom, it had a periodic tight spot in the crosslide lead screw, and the same in the compound. When I got my 8x18, my first project was to make a left hand threading adapter so I could turn a new crosslide lead screw and nut. I still have the old one here- now and then I pick it up and marvel at how poorly made it was. What are the chances I'd find some unacceptable areas in the larger lathe- pretty good I'd say. I've seen similar machines where the lead screw dials don't match the measured motions of the slides- one had a periodic error of at least five thou in a couple spots on the dial. All of this is part of the equation when you talk about accuracy. And I haven't even mentioned whether the lathe turns an unwanted taper or not-

airsmith282
12-28-2010, 05:19 PM
Or that we are surrounded by aliens :rolleyes:

now thats funny, but you know if you think were all alone in the universe think again, if think man kind got where he is today on his own keep dreaming,

make fun all you like i really dont care but i know i better

i can not prove that their are aliens on earth right now , and even if i could you still would not belive, but you and any one else can not prove that there isnt.


its not the china man thats making the junk its the guy that places the order that determens the junk , level that gets made,

when are you going to learn
also you can get bad runs on stuff to even in the decent stuff, when i got my lathe it had a bad tail stock sleeve so busy been sent me a complet tail stock assembley so i just swaped it out and i have never had a problem sence..

so it was a defect, but the problem was fixed,

also of people also seem to not like the fact that the busy bee stuff can be as good or better then some of the USA Iron out there,

its not just the machine thats makes things turn out great is also the operator that makes things great and how well he or she maintains the equipmnet as well

i dont care if it made in china russia ,or in someones back yard .. if the dam tool works right and the guy behind it knows how to run it and maintain it right it will perform and very well at that,,

oh and if there was a problem with my bearings it would have shown up when i checked them all over and they are all fine, so what other excuses do you want to all come up with ,,there is no play front to back or side to side at all in any of the bearings no play at all on the cross slide or compound , the bed/ ways are all good and level no problems and the carriage onyl has the expecd amount of play as it should have and is all to spec..

so come on experts what the next item your going to try and pick on,,

i set it up the way that was sudjested and it shows better results , whats the matter you cant stand the idea that a made in a china lathe can be as good or better then what you got on your table..

oh and to the guy that put in the sealed baearings you do know thoes bearings are going to ware out alot faster then the original ones , if any thing i would have used the same stlye bearings but gone with a higher quaility set, also sealed bearings are not as well sealed as you might think they will get oil in side eventually and then when the oil mixes in with the grease in the sealed ones its going to break it up and force it out then what you going to do,

no offence but they put in the stlye of bearing that they did for a reason..

airsmith282
12-28-2010, 05:29 PM
I'm happy to see that your runout is very low, or virtually non-existent according to the gauge. That's about what I would expect from a decent tapered roller bearing with a proper pre-load.

Now I'm curious about your spring passes- you say this is with only two. Does that mean that you quit after two passes, or that no more cutting took place after two passes-

This is not really a specific question for airsmith, but a general question, taking into account all the means by which a tool can keep cutting without being further advanced into the workpiece. Fastrack got into this deeper and raised many appropriate points. In my own machining activities, I sort of automatically account for the various plays and find that with a correct setup and tool grinding, the first spring pass takes a tad more material off, but the second seldom takes more than dust. When it works this way, I'm satisfied that all is well. I tend to see this in another light as well- when you are taking a cut, you are basically cutting a thread, leaving high ridges behind, then with a spring pass you are most likely cutting much of those crests off because it's unlikely that you'd be feeding the tool in exactly the same relationship to the rotational position of the spindle. A second spring pass averages out the peaks that may be left, and should then have things about as even as practical, given the finite amount of time you'd want to spend on every operation. This is diametrically opposite to thread cutting, where you want to leave the crest untouched during the entire operation, except for a cleanup deburring.

The geometry of the cutting edge could be such that most of this 'crest, or peak' cutting is done on the first pass, which then means the spring pass will show only dust if anything. I would characterize this by saying that the cutting tool will be working with the main pressure point to remove the bulk of material, then a shearing action is done by a trailing edge that's nearly parallel to the workpiece. Where there's a large nose radius, there's likely less crest being left behind, but more likeliness of the tool deflecting away from the workpiece. This situation in turn would mean a spring pass is going to remove significant material, and may result in several subsequent spring passes also removing material.

Where this is the case, I would be likely to assess the condition of the cutting tool, regrind possibly- with the aim of achieving a balance between minimal tool deflection, surface finish, and the least number of finish passes required.

Of course as soon as you change materials and/or diameters, there will be differences showing up.

In part here we start seeing the qualities of the lathe. There could well be essentially zero spindle runout, but enough motion in the slides to allow unwanted relative motion in the position of the cutting edge relative to the workpiece. On my own lathe, I took a few measures to control this. One was to add a spring-loaded downforce mechanism to the rear of the carriage. Once the rear carriage surface was constrained to be in constant contact with the rear flat way, things improved. With some careful refitting of the compound slide surfaces and an improvement in the gib adjusting system, things improved again. With a newly made crosslide nut and leadscrew, things improved again. With a direct-to-crosslide tool mounting, another improvement is made- but this step precluded the use of the compound. The final element that I haven't yet addressed is the poor mounting of the toolpost to the crosslide- there's too much flex here for my liking, but I've lived with it so far.

I can measure the same essentially non-existent runout on my lathe, but that may be of little value if these other factors aren't included in the analysis.

Considering my limited budget and basically a hobby-only use for a lathe, my next 'upgrade' would probably be to that same lathe that airsmith and others have. To be realistic, I'd consider that my first projects would be to optimize all these potential 'error' spots. When I looked at that lathe in the showroom, it had a periodic tight spot in the crosslide lead screw, and the same in the compound. When I got my 8x18, my first project was to make a left hand threading adapter so I could turn a new crosslide lead screw and nut. I still have the old one here- now and then I pick it up and marvel at how poorly made it was. What are the chances I'd find some unacceptable areas in the larger lathe- pretty good I'd say. I've seen similar machines where the lead screw dials don't match the measured motions of the slides- one had a periodic error of at least five thou in a couple spots on the dial. All of this is part of the equation when you talk about accuracy. And I haven't even mentioned whether the lathe turns an unwanted taper or not-

i quit after the 2 passes , as for the spring back deal you get tool deflection when cutting, anything i get for tool deflection is a result of the tinly little amount of play from the carriage its not very mcuh at all but iam a perfectionest and want to make sure that the entire surface area is true front to back and that the finel OD is as perfectly round and to size that it can get to..
i also always take light cuts except where i can get away with heavery cut and not mess up anything i also know the limits of my cutters and my lathe to and dont want to over push them so i lighten up on them ,by taking lighter cuts to..

KiloBravo
12-28-2010, 05:41 PM
if think man kind got where he is today on his own keep dreaming

not to go off topic but I can't think of anything in modern society that wasn't developed through science or hard work or built upon preceding inventions/ideas ?

airsmith282
12-28-2010, 06:10 PM
not to go off topic but I can't think of anything in modern society that wasn't developed through science or hard work or built upon preceding inventions/ideas ?


ok so tell us all this then how is it for thousands of years we were not all the bright and all the sunnden in the last 63 years we have advanced like over night basicly, for the record 63 years is only the last 23 010.2585 days

in the bible the fiery chariot story also there is a painting in a church that has a pic of not only jesus in it but also in each corner there are pics of peopel in what they wiould have called a chariot that has fire out the back end, funny we never had the power of flight utill the wright brothers, also many orther culters all over the world have pics and also stuff the tribe made that resemble non humans . oh and the bible also mentions that god said i have taken things out in cause you are not yet ready, now to me its more like the churches did in fact king james him self had removed many parts of the bible not cause it was a conflick but because we likey would not be ready for that info at the time,

also any alien enocounters back in the day would not have gone bad because the thinking level back then and non eductaed would have see them as gods and or angles so they would not be in fear they would worship instead the non humans

also for recod not all alines are like the grays for example, there are non earthlings that look and act no differently,

why so many people think that an alien has to look like something out of the movies ill never understand,

you can go back and forth on this subject and still never grasp a dam thing unless you have and open mind, youll never belive unless an alien like a gray lands in your back yard.,

tell me then what do you humans really know about out creation for facts,

big bang is BS
darwin is BS
amiba evoloution is also BS

i can go on this subject for years on end ,

no one knows how the pyrmids are really built or how, and no the aliens didnt do all the work either , but the tools and tecknolegy by humans alone did not exist and if it did why is there not traces, also how do you explain the other pymrids else where in the world , ,oh waite they traveled to the myans and the aztecs and every where else and built them..NOT

besides its not just humans you gota think about here how about the animales the spiders the bugs and snakes and every other living creature on the planet wanna tell me how they all got here to .. oh waite the big bang right ok evoloution lol hahahahahhha ,

KiloBravo
12-28-2010, 06:58 PM
ok so tell us all this then how is it for thousands of years we were not all the bright and all the sunnden in the last 63 years we have advanced like over night basicly, for the record 63 years is only the last 23 010.2585 days

We saw an explosion in scientific advancements right around the time the transistor lead to the development of the computer, and people were able to communicate and share ideas effectively over any distance with out delays. Those seem like logical explanations to me.

Man and man's machines seem to have followed a logical evolutionary path to me.

KiloBravo
12-28-2010, 07:02 PM
We saw an explosion in scientific advancements right around the time the transistor lead to the development of the computer, and people were able to communicate and share ideas effectively over any distance with out delays. Those seem like logical explanations to me.

Man and man's machines seem to have followed a logical evolutionary path to me.

My opinion and since this a machinist site I will let that be my last comment on the matter.

airsmith282
12-28-2010, 07:22 PM
if only you knew oh well stay in the dark then

you must be one of thoes that belive there all weather ballons ,

and that all thoes stars we see right now were stars that burnt out millions of years ago and we only see them now, that one even made me LMFAO


oh and you also likely belive that man is the supurior race in the universe , and that you cant travel the speed of light or faster then the speed of light and that it would take 70 years for any alien to get here, at the speed of light oh waite what if they can go faster say 70 times faster guess they can make the trip faster then,, fold space and time use worm holes,stuff we our selfs cant do and say cant be done, oh but the laws of physics say it cant be done, well sorry but it can be , perhaps not by us but a race more advanced , and you say there is no race that advanced, well how do you know.right now you dont even belive in aliens form the sounds of things or that we have been guided and helped out over the last 12 millium or so ,

no amount of humans in 22 thousand days can advance on their own to where we are now, sorry were not that smart yet..

think about it , even in the last 200 years we have come along way but how is it in the last 18,000 years we have hardely done anything untill just recently and 200 years is only 73 048.4398 days ago

12,000 years is 4 382 906.39 days ago, and still we spend all but the last 73 048.4398 days ago

being basicaly umm dumb

Doozer
12-28-2010, 08:18 PM
I guess it is all what you compare it to. My first lathe was a 10" Atlas. It was in good shape, except for the babbit spindle bearings were shot. (not the later timken bearing machine). It was a chatter monster. Really bad. I did make good parts on it, and I learned a lot about machining. The BusyBee looks really good compared to the Atlas. ( I was not going to re-pour babbit, I don't think so). Gear head is way better than belt and back gear. I wish I would have had a busy bee as compared to my first lathe, but I did sell the atlas and got something better. Now I have a Hendey toolmakers lathe and a Hardinge lathe. Life is much better now, but I think even if I had a busy bee, I would keep it for quick and dirty little odd jobs. --Doozer

Mcgyver
12-28-2010, 08:21 PM
ok so tell us all this then how is it for thousands of years we were not all the bright and all the sunnden in the last 63 years we have advanced like over night basicly, for the record 63 years is only the last 23 010.2585 days
,


interesting. so aliens are here based on the pace of scientific and technological advancement. But how do they make the discoveries and inventions seem so natural, so accountable....are you saying the scientists and engineers aliens? That would explain a great deal I suppose.



besides its not just humans you gota think about here how about the animales the spiders the bugs and snakes and every other living creature on the planet wanna tell me how they all got here to .. oh waite the big bang right ok evoloution lol hahahahahhha

now ya got some spainin to do.....I'm pretty sure there were spider here longer than 63 years ago.....but...even if they were sent on an earlier recon mission, if they can't evolve, where'd the aliens get them? the bug-o-matic?

airsmith282
12-28-2010, 11:01 PM
interesting. so aliens are here based on the pace of scientific and technological advancement. But how do they make the discoveries and inventions seem so natural, so accountable....are you saying the scientists and engineers aliens? That would explain a great deal I suppose.



now ya got some spainin to do.....I'm pretty sure there were spider here longer than 63 years ago.....but...even if they were sent on an earlier recon mission, if they can't evolve, where'd the aliens get them? the bug-o-matic?

the reference to the spiders is on part with the whole big bang theroy and evoloutionest theroy, had nohting to do with the last 63 years.. i never said that the engineers and scientest them self were aliens, you really need to think out side the box, and open you mind up to things , the problem in most people is they dont question anything at all and just accept things,

not many people even look at the compareson form years to days difference for example.,
most people have been lead to belive humans have been on the planet for millions and some bilions of years which is utter crap .

other people belive that adam and eve were the first 2 humans and thats not true, read the bible there were others here at the same time as adam and eve..

1 day to god is 1000 years, according to the bibile took him 6 days to create everything so in real time for us thats 6000 years, there for humans have only been here for about 13,000 years which makes sence due to the creation and time perioed of the bible and when man tracked stuff.

its impossible for us to have been decened from apes and the same for the amiba or course of evolution as some belive ,

how we got on earth is a mystery, how long we have been here approx 13,000 at most even scients are starting to see that as a more realist number,

any one care to talk about roswell , or sevel sitings of UFOs in the 15 16 and 17th centrys not to mention the more and more comman sitings the last few years, abductions and proof of them,

i agree many people can fake being hypnotiesed but not everyone and when what they are saying under hypnosis are memorys you cant fake that, also there have been people with implants of objects made of metals and no scars at all so how the stuff get there ????
ok also every time you goto the US or other governments for discloser how come it is they blank out 90% of the stuff and give you usells crap so mcuh for even your freedom of information rights,

i can under stand the government wanting to keep somestuff, secreat but come one there is a limit,

the f117 stealth having anti gravity capabilitys and the B 52 bommer as well,
i had a F117 fly about 100 feet over my head once never even hear a sound out of it wanna explain that , no jet engine runs that silient,
and there is info to support this on the net,

yet most people talk anit gravity as something we dont have but yet it seems they are incorrect

like i said 22 thousand days is pretty short time to have thoes kind of advancments even for plane's

RPM
12-29-2010, 04:57 PM
I guess you don't have much of a sense of history, but did you ever hear of an English guy called Maudslay? He took all the ideas of lathes at the time, early 1800s, and came up with pretty much what you have now as a manual lathe, especially the headstock, the compound, the tailstock and the leadscrew. He also perfected the first screw-cutting lathe, and was part of a massive change called the Industrial Revolution -which started in England, then spread to Europe and America, with the US being the most innovative by the end.
No aliens in sight, but without the work of these guys, you wouldn't have a lathe like you have. this also goes for boring people like Faraday and Tesla, who also had a small part in how we are today -still no aliens in sight.

And on another point, do you tihnk that aliens who can travel across our Solar System would be so stupid as to help us make better weapons to kill each other?

Richard in Los Angeles

oldtiffie
12-29-2010, 05:27 PM
Which or what sort of "aliens" are we talking about?

It is true in one sense at least that as Airsmith is in Canada that all those who are not ('mericans included) are "aliens" so far as he and other Canadians may be concerned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_(law)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien

The mind boggles.

MotorradMike
12-29-2010, 05:52 PM
I'd like to put the Alien thing behind us if I may.
Firstly, we're discussing extraterrestrials, not people foreign to this country.

Secondly:
There was an excellent documentary made in 1977 which got out in spite of US government attempts to thwart production and release. Copies are now rare but it's still possible to find if you try.

It's titled "Men in black".

View that before making any assumptions about who and what your neighbours might be.

airsmith282
12-29-2010, 06:06 PM
I'd like to put the Alien thing behind us if I may.
Firstly, we're discussing extraterrestrials, not people foreign to this country.

Secondly:
There was an excellent documentary made in 1977 which got out in spite of US government attempts to thwart production and release. Copies are now rare but it's still possible to find if you try.

It's titled "Men in black".

View that before making any assumptions about who and what your neighbours might be.

well put mike

one never does know thats for sure,,

so back to the topic at hand on machining,,

aboard_epsilon
12-29-2010, 06:08 PM
I'd like to put the Alien thing behind us if I may.
Firstly, we're discussing extraterrestrials, not people foreign to this country.

Secondly:
There was an excellent documentary made in 1977 which got out in spite of US government attempts to thwart production and release. Copies are now rare but it's still possible to find if you try.

It's titled "Men in black".

View that before making any assumptions about who and what your neighbours might be.

looking for the torrent .

men in black 2002 ..and men in black 1997 is all i can find ..any more clues like director would help .

all the best.markj

John Stevenson
12-29-2010, 06:15 PM
Secondly:
There was an excellent documentary made in 1977 which got out in spite of US government attempts to thwart production and release. Copies are now rare but it's still possible to find if you try.

It's titled "Men in black".

View that before making any assumptions about who and what your neighbours might be.

Nice one Mike but wasted ..........................whoossshhhh

Arcane
12-29-2010, 06:36 PM
I liked the Edgar suit...:D
http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/edgar.jpg

airsmith282
12-29-2010, 06:41 PM
guys come on were talking about the real men in black not the movie, and real aliens from outer space ok

how many have ever woundered if your wife or husband might be an alien..or perhaps you feel like you your self dont belong on this planet

ok back to machining

muahhahahahahah

Black_Moons
12-29-2010, 07:39 PM
Im sure I don't belong on this planet, The majority of people are just too stupid/ignorant for me to belong, And most of them have made it blatantly clear I don't belong.

airsmith282
12-29-2010, 09:28 PM
Im sure I don't belong on this planet, The majority of people are just too stupid/ignorant for me to belong, And most of them have made it blatantly clear I don't belong.


yup i hear ya i got the same problem , now if some alien would please take me to their planet then perhaps ill have a much more interesting life being surounded by thoes with intellegence would be bliss..

iam almost certian i was dumped here as a form of punishment,

914Wilhelm
12-29-2010, 09:58 PM
Punishment for whom?

S_J_H
12-29-2010, 10:31 PM
how many have ever woundered if your wife or husband might be an alien.

now that is starting to shed some light on things! :eek:
But Dammit! I would have preferred an Alien from the planet Nymph!

I'm heading out for foil, anybody else need a box?

Jaakko Fagerlund
12-30-2010, 12:26 AM
yup i hear ya i got the same problem , now if some alien would please take me to their planet then perhaps ill have a much more interesting life being surounded by thoes with intellegence would be bliss..

iam almost certian i was dumped here as a form of punishment,

Yes please - if some alien(s) hears this, please take airsmith with you as this forum seems to not have an ignore button that would enable me and others to live a happy life.

Guy talks about "how not to believe everything written" and then makes claims that bible is the ultimate truth, aliens are the ultimate truth (as it says so on the 'net) and what else there was.

What comes to the original topic, I would really suggest learning to use a lathe. There is no need for "five million" spring passes (or if there is, your lathe is way out of proper condition), yu normally rough out, take a light measurement cut and then the last cut which should be about the same as the measurement cut. Or you can take two chips after the first measurement, so that you can measure in between to verify.

Edit: Forgot the quote

oldtiffie
12-30-2010, 12:27 AM
guys come on were talking about the real men in black not the movie, and real aliens from outer space ok

how many have ever woundered if your wife or husband might be an alien..or perhaps you feel like you your self dont belong on this planet

ok back to machining

muahhahahahahah


Sure way to find out - just start asserting your inalienable (connubial and "other") rights and you'll damn soon find out - pronto!!.

You will be that sniveling cowering wreck in the corner - and alienated.

Arcane
12-30-2010, 12:37 AM
.....this forum seems to not have an ignore button that would enable me and others to live a happy life.

Find User CP on the left side of the above group of drop down menus, click on it and then scroll down to the bottom left side where it says Buddy / Ignore Lists and click on that and you'll get to the page you want.

Mcgyver
12-30-2010, 12:49 AM
put it on an ignore list? are you nuts? This has all the promise of being an all time great! lathe accuracy tests, chinese tools & aliens - what more do you want! After all, there's as much a draw for socializing and entertainment as tech stuff :D

oldtiffie
12-30-2010, 12:55 AM
Back to the lathe.

I think I have yet to see any owner of the B-B B2227L lathe here say that it is inaccurate or that they don't like it. Nor has anyone else really.

That has to be some sort of record here - for a "Chinese" lathe.

As I said earlier, I've got one and it does all that I ask of it within its considerable limits - and it does it very well.

I have no reason to think that Airsmith's lathe is not as good as mine is.

Arcane
12-30-2010, 01:01 AM
put it on an ignore list? are you nuts? This has all the promise of being an all time great! lathe accuracy tests, chinese tools & aliens - what more do you want! After all, there's as much a draw for socializing and entertainment as tech stuff :D

Times ten! :D This is much more entertaining than the usual fracas that gets going between some of the more "senior" member who shall go unnamed.:D Now...where's my popcorn?

Willy
12-30-2010, 01:25 AM
put it on an ignore list? are you nuts? This has all the promise of being an all time great! lathe accuracy tests, chinese tools & aliens - what more do you want! After all, there's as much a draw for socializing and entertainment as tech stuff :D



Originally Posted by by airsmith282
....you really need to think out side the box, and open you mind up to things....


Good boy Mcgyver, now you're paying attention.:D

Dragons_fire
12-30-2010, 01:34 AM
Back to the lathe.

I think I have yet to see any owner of the B-B B2227L lathe here say that it is inaccurate or that they don't like it. Nor has anyone else really.

That has to be some sort of record here - for a "Chinese" lathe.

As I said earlier, I've got one and it does all that I ask of it within its considerable limits - and it does it very well.

I have no reason to think that Airsmith's lathe is not as good as mine is.

While I dont agree with Airsmiths runout test, I do agree with oldtiffie. I have had this lathe for a few years now, and i have a friend that has had his for abour 10 years. They have done everything that either of us have asked of them, and i wouldnt hesitate to buy another if i could figure out a way to work more than one at a time! :)

airsmith282
12-30-2010, 02:50 AM
While I dont agree with Airsmiths runout test, I do agree with oldtiffie. I have had this lathe for a few years now, and i have a friend that has had his for abour 10 years. They have done everything that either of us have asked of them, and i wouldnt hesitate to buy another if i could figure out a way to work more than one at a time! :)

thats easy get your wife if you have one not sure if your married but if you are get her into it , my wife runs my lathe when she has jobs to do for her customers, usually i have to find other things to do when that happens cause i only got one lathe,

no one said you have to agree with the test results the first one was not as good as the second one and the second one was more of a proper set up , then the first ,i like the second test results better.

no 2 are the same is a lesson i learned long ago, its impossible for now perhaps someday all will be made equal but not right now,

perhaps it will never happen, really i dont know that answer..

my wife is glade human cloneing at least in the public eye was banned , 1 more of me would drive her really nuts..