PDA

View Full Version : Tapmatic attachment for cheap!



KiddZimaHater
12-26-2010, 02:24 PM
Tapmatic attachment for sale on Ebay. Cheap!
I'm not affiliated with the seller. Just thought somebody here could use it.
Link:
Tapmatic (http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-TAPMATIC-NCR50-TAPPING-ATTACHMENT-W-1-SHANK_W0QQitemZ130468387742QQcategoryZ104236QQcmdZ ViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286.m7QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DLVI%2 6itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid% 3D5926332090538976323)

AllThumbz
12-26-2010, 03:05 PM
Tapmatic attachment for sale on Ebay. Cheap!
I'm not affiliated with the seller. Just thought somebody here could use it.
Link:
Tapmatic (http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-TAPMATIC-NCR50-TAPPING-ATTACHMENT-W-1-SHANK_W0QQitemZ130468387742QQcategoryZ104236QQcmdZ ViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286.m7QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DLVI%2 6itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid% 3D5926332090538976323)

I'm a bit hesitant to deal with reliabletools:

...............1 month.........6 months.............12 months
Positive 1070................6373...................13433
Neutral 12....................65......................126

Negative 18................50......................112


Best,

Nelson

JCHannum
12-26-2010, 03:20 PM
It is reliable and it has not sold yet. Chances are it won't go or cheap.

I notice the "PASSED" sticker. I assume this is a customs sticker. Are Tapmatic offshored now too?

KiloBravo
12-26-2010, 03:24 PM
It is reliable and it has not sold yet. Chances are it won't go or cheap.

I notice the "PASSED" sticker. I assume this is a customs sticker. Are Tapmatic offshored now too?


Ad says ....

Made in U.S.A by Tapmatic.

This is a New Tapmatic Reversible Tapping Attachement.

Does look like the standard cheesy "passed" sticker though ...

philbur
12-26-2010, 04:17 PM
How do you know it's cheap.

Phil:)

KiddZimaHater
12-26-2010, 05:44 PM
WOW!
I just read the negative feedback given to RELIABLE TOOLS.
Holy Moly!
Apparently they claim 'free shipping' , then contact the buyer outside of Ebay and demand they pay shipping costs.
YIKES!!

Mcgyver
12-26-2010, 06:43 PM
How do you know it's cheap.

Phil:)

exactly, why is this different than any other auction with a low starting bid?

These "hey everybody look what i found" posts" are offside imo .....unless its something so esoteric its our civic duty to find a buyer else it goes to china for melting. I suppose the posts are mostly done in the spirit of helping others, but being the busybody has a good chance of hurting others. Those that are really interested in something are all ready looking and deserve the bargains, there's many more who don't care enough to search the bargains out but are willing to swoop in and wreck the bargain after its broadcast...at the expense of guys who's onto it before the broadcast....affecting his deal.

Carld
12-26-2010, 06:44 PM
I remember some threads saying Reliable Tools is not reliable at all and in fact should be named Unreliable.

mooney1el
12-26-2010, 07:14 PM
I "won" an auction from them a number of years ago...what a disaster! Good thing it wasn't for a huge amount of money, but it was something I needed. Had to talk to their "Internet Guy" (I think hi name was Richard, but I am not sure), he was out of the office. This was back before the days of Paypal and it still took a while to receive any satisfaction at all. Never again.

PeteM
12-26-2010, 07:20 PM
As an aside, Meg Whitman's campaign used the owners of Reliable Tools in ads for her (unsuccessful) run for governor her in California. The basic notion was that Meg was the key to creating great small businesses like Reliable Tools.

In my own experience, Reliable started as a good source but quickly became an anything-for-a-buck business, including lying about the condition of the last item I bought from them and ignoring communications to make it right. Last item? A sine plate described as like new that had heavy rust and pitting on the bottom and rolls -- no pictures of that. As noted earlier, shipping has also become a profit center for them.

oldtiffie
12-26-2010, 07:30 PM
OK - that's the vendor sorted out.

Now back to the "Tapmatic Reversible Tapping Attachment".

I'm sure that some would like to know just how good or otherwise they are, what machines (mill, drill - MT taper) they can be used on, head-room required and whether the usual straight-fluted taps will do or whether spiral or "speed" taps are required. How long they take to set up, how accurately they need to be set up over the hole to be tapped and all the usual "pros" and "cons". Does it have or does it need an adjustable slipping clutch etc. What speeds and lubricants etc. etc.

I have two but they are good but don't get a lot of use as I tend to tap "off-machine" as I don't do a lot of "batch" or "repetition" work.

I have a Sieg Super X3 mill which has a "tapping" feature that is set on the LCD screen and is used with the tapping plunger (reversing) switches at the outer ends of the "drill" handles. It does not have a slipping clutch and is subject to the full torque of the DC motor.

AllThumbz
12-26-2010, 07:53 PM
I'm sure that some would like to know just how good or otherwise they are, what machines (mill, drill - MT taper) they can be used on, head-room required and whether the usual straight-fluted taps will do or whether spiral or "speed" taps are required. How long they take to set up, how accurately they need to be set up over the hole to be tapped and all the usual "pros" and "cons". Does it have or does it need an adjustable slipping clutch etc. What speeds and lubricants etc. etc.


Yes, I would like to know the answer to these questions.



Nelson

mike4
12-26-2010, 11:36 PM
WOW!
I just read the negative feedback given to RELIABLE TOOLS.
Holy Moly!
Apparently they claim 'free shipping' , then contact the buyer outside of Ebay and demand they pay shipping costs.
YIKES!!
I recently purchased 50 expanding collets and 40 od DA collets as well as MT drills , these purchases did eventually arrive , someone had forgot to ship them after packing ,(Friday afternoon syndrome), the lady who emailed me was extremely helpful and said that I should contact her if I experienced any problems with future purchases .

They seem to be like many suppliers who I have dealt with recently ,it depends on who you get in the shipping area , some care and others just dont give a **it .

Michael

dp
12-26-2010, 11:44 PM
I have a Tapmatic and use it on my small Grizzly column mill. I've tapped from 6-32 to 1/4-20 with great success. I use a spot of bee's wax on the tap before tapping. I generally tap to 75% with plunge depths rarely exceeding 1/4". Materials have included aluminum, brass, 1018, and 12L14. Haven't broken a tap in years but the good news is I lose them as fast as if I did so they are usually sharp when I need them :)

Ken_Shea
12-26-2010, 11:46 PM
I have noticed over the years that many have expectations of others far higher then they give or do of them selves, many of those expectations are unreasonable.

98+ positive experiences with Reliable seems pretty good in my book when you look at there sales numbers. When you are the one that gets caught it seems far worse of course.

How many of us can say that we are reliable 98+ percent of the time when getting paid at work.
Now me, my boss says that I am 100%+ reliable, dedicated efficient and honest, if you don't believe me just ask me.
Been self employed for almost 45 years. :D

Ken_Shea
12-26-2010, 11:51 PM
Just very recently got a Procunier #1, am looking forward to seeing how it works next time I need small holes tapped.
What was read sounds very good.

lazlo
12-27-2010, 12:25 AM
In my own experience, Reliable started as a good source but quickly became an anything-for-a-buck business, including lying about the condition of the last item I bought from them and ignoring communications to make it right.

That's the least of their sins.

Ken_Shea
12-27-2010, 12:31 AM
That's the least of their sins.
I've heard wonderful stories about machinery dealers:rolleyes:
Still, how do you explain 98%+ positive experiences?

dp
12-27-2010, 12:34 AM
I would be amazed to discover that 98% of Ebay buyers are reasonable people who don't file frivolous complaints.

Ken_Shea
12-27-2010, 12:37 AM
I agree, still the figure is there and not under any but customer (and eBay) control.

AllThumbz
12-27-2010, 12:59 AM
I don't want to get into this p***ing contest, especially because I have nothing against reliabletools, and no reason to be against them, or shill for them, but 98% or not, reliabletools has too many negatives for my taste, which was the intent of my original post. I also look at the content of the negatives, and, while quite subjective, I don't like what I see, so I pass them by. Then I factor in what I have heard on forums like this one, from experts like you guys out there, who know what you are talking about, and that's the ball game for me.

I also looked at others who had these tapping heads for sale, admittedly albeit at higher prices:

mikekandu 99.8% feedback
rogerwthomas 100%
rms 99.7%
mark_sullivan 100%
bestbaymachines 100%
gooseguy84 100%
validusgroup 99.9%
tools4cheap 100%

Every other seller has a score higher than 98%.

While a good score on a math test, 98% on ebay is NOT a good feedback score on ebay, when you consider how it is calculated not to consider neutrals, feedback withdrawals, etc.

Then I consider the negatives, 1 every 2 days or more. 112 negatives in 12 months. Are all those people unreasonable? I don't think so.

So, as I said, with all due deference to Ken, whom I assume had a positive experience with them, I will pass them by. Because if I don't and I become #113 this year to be forced to leave them negative feedback (I don't do it these days unless I am absolutely forced to), I have no one to blame but myself for ignoring what others said.

Moving past the seller, as I had hoped we would, I would like some information on these tapping devices themselves, such as

-what machines (mill, drill - MT taper) they can be used on,
-head-room required
-whether the usual straight-fluted taps will do or whether spiral or "speed" taps are required
-How long they take to set up
-how accurately they need to be set up over the hole to be tapped and all the usual "pros" and "cons"
-Does it have or does it need an adjustable slipping clutch etc. What speeds and lubricants etc. etc.

Thank you so much for providing the above information.


Nelson

dp
12-27-2010, 01:06 AM
Moving past the seller, as I had hoped we would, I would like some information on these tapping devices themselves, such as

So instead of pissing all over this thread and then hijacking it in this way, why don't you start your own thread specifically requesting evaluations and experiences with power tappers?

Edit: This should get you started - dimensions: http://www.tools-n-gizmos.com/specs/Tapmatic_R.html

Ken_Shea
12-27-2010, 01:09 AM
Nelson, you assumed incorrectly, I have never purchase nor bid on any item from Reliable, or do I see this as a pissing contest at all, people sharing their views and experiences, what's not to be good about that.

People want cheap, cheap, perfect and complete service today with no human errors or issues, that is just flat unreasonable expectations, just plain foolish.

Personally, I do not care if any one purchases from Reliable.

And it is closer to 99% the 98%.

I'd buy from them.

lazlo
12-27-2010, 01:10 AM
I've heard wonderful stories about machinery dealers:rolleyes:

Machinery dealers are one thing. Reliable is a whole 'nother story.

Reliabletool, smonros, and shill bidding. I report, you decide
(http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/reliabletool-smonros-shill-bidding-i-report-you-decide-154696/)

Short story: Smonros, the most infamous Reliable *cough* bidding groupie bids on an instrument lathe, and wins it. A month later, the lathe is re-listed, and "Question Boy" bids on it, wins, and then notices that Smonros was bidding against him (!). Question Boy confronts Reliable, and they subtract out Smonros' bids from final sale amount.

The Ebay links have expired, but all the regulars on PracticalMachinist saw the bid history, and Reliable's invoice with Smonros' bids retracted.

AllThumbz
12-27-2010, 01:18 AM
Nelson, you assumed incorrectly, I have never purchase nor bid on any item from Reliable, or do I see this as a pissing contest at all, people sharing their views and experiences, what's not to be good about that.

People want cheap, cheap, perfect and complete service today with no human errors or issues, that is just flat unreasonable expectations, just plain foolish.

Personally, I do not care if any one purchases from Reliable.

And it is closer to 99% the 98%.

I'd buy from them.


Ken,

Sorry if I assumed incorrectly.

What I said originally was that they have too many negatives for *me*.

Quoting my original statement:


"I'm a bit hesitant to deal with reliabletools:

...............1 month.........6 months.............12 months
Positive 1070................6373...................13433
Neutral 12....................65......................126

Negative 18................50......................112"



Their prices are very good, and I have been tempted to bid a few times on Ebay, but I am afraid to be unsatisfied due to what I have read.

Best,

Nelson

AllThumbz
12-27-2010, 01:20 AM
So instead of pissing all over this thread and then hijacking it in this way, why don't you start your own thread specifically requesting evaluations and experiences with power tappers?

Edit: This should get you started - dimensions: http://www.tools-n-gizmos.com/specs/Tapmatic_R.html


Dennis:

Sorry if I hijacked the thread, such was not my intention. Those very questions were posed by another "commenter" and I adopted them.

As for the delivery of your message, needs work.
This has been raised before, to no avail, I see.
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=44773&page=3
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=44773&page=4

Please refrain from joining my forum until you can treat others more respectfully.

Thanks,


Nelson

dp
12-27-2010, 01:23 AM
Somebody will have to explain to me how shilling can be a problem. Unless somebody is a complete idiot they bid only what the thing is worth to them. If a shill bids it up higher you lose. You are out nothing. If you win for less than or as much as you think the item is worth to you, you win. If you pay more than you think the item is worth to you, go to the top and re-read.

Where's the problem?

Screwing a buyer around after the sale finalized is good enough reason for getting your ass kicked.

Ken_Shea
12-27-2010, 01:23 AM
lazlo,
With all due respect, and I mean that, one, two or three examples of an apparent scam is no proof when there are almost 80k sales.

If everyone that has dealt with me had heard and taken the advice of my first wife I would not still be in business.

You just cannot take a few examples and apply a broad brush of distrust to some company or person. There are too many variables. As they say, stuff happens.

dp
12-27-2010, 01:26 AM
Dennis:

Sorry if I hijacked the thread, such was not my intention. Those very questions were posed by another "commenter" and I adopted them.

As for the delivery of your message, needs work.
This has been raised before, to no avail, I see.

Please refrain from joining my forum until you can treat others more respectfully.

Thanks,


Nelson

Apparently I forgot the smiley faces. Regardless, it was good advice and also an excellent reference which is more than anyone else gave you.

AllThumbz
12-27-2010, 01:31 AM
I want to publicly apologize to everyone for getting involved in this, I generally exercise better restraint these days.

I am very sorry.

Best,


Nelson

lazlo
12-27-2010, 01:34 AM
lazlo,
With all due respect, and I mean that, one, two or three examples of an apparent scam is no proof when there are almost 80k sales.

You just cannot take a few examples and apply a broad brush of distrust to some company or person. There are too many variables. As they say, stuff happens.

Ken, there's simply no other explanation to Question Boy's adventure with Smonros and Reliable:


When I returned home I did a completed items search on the number I had written down. I found that smonros had won the same machine (as indicated by the serial number pictured in the auction) in April '06 for $355.00. Next, I checked the bid history to see who I had bid against.

The second highest bidder in my auction was smonros, the 'owner' of the machine.

So I called reliabletools and explained what I had found. Obviously red faced, they agreed that I should not have been bidding against the owner of the machine, and agreed to charge me the same amount as the third highest bidder, $265.00.

At the time, Smonros was literally bidding on every item that Reliable listed, seconds after the items were listed. He would leave positive feedback the moment the auction closed -- late at night, when he couldn't have possibly run down to Reliable to pick up the machine. After months of heated discussions about Smonros here, on PM and on the Ebay Safe Harbor Forums, Question Boy posted his damning evidence, and Smonros simply... disappeared. Never to be seen again.

More importantly, there's not a month that goes by on PracticalMachinist with yet another Reliable auction story. I've never seen a Reliable auction that doesn't have bidders with 100% bid activity with Reliable, but they don't win any auctions. Including this one:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/ReliableBidders.jpg

v860rich
12-27-2010, 01:45 AM
AllThumbz

I have a Procunier tapping head w/3mt shank, used in a series 1 Bridgeport.
Because of the R8 spindle I have to use a R8 to mt3 adapter which uses up a bunch of headspace. It has been a problem once but not insurmountable.

It would work very nicely in a good size drill press, but I haven't used it in that manor.

I use any style tap I may have, depending on the hole I'm tapping. If I have the size I need in a spiral tap that is my 1st choice.

The setup time isn't a big deal. I don't use it unless I have a few holes or almost any hole 7/16" or larger.

It needs to be aligned with the hole to be tapped the same as if you power tap, but I have a DRO so I'm able to get back to each hole without much effort.

It's all pro for me except the mt3 spindle length, but I'm about to fix that!!!

It has a reversing clutch built in which reverses at about 1.5 times the infeed rate.
The way it works is you advance the quill into the drilled hole, the tap will engage and feed until the clutch slips, lift the quill handle and the tap reverses out, just like hand tapping. Move the handle to infeed the tap and it cuts again, lift the handle and it reverses, ect.

I run at the slowest speed and use whatever lube I would if I were hand tapping.

With the Procunier you need different size heads to use with different size taps and they use a special collet to drive the taps, they're not too expensive, the collets that is!!! The heads new are quite a bit but used, not so bad. I think all the cnc stuff has made the tapping head kinda old school.

THANX RICH

People say I'm getting crankier as I get older. That's not it. I just find I enjoy annoying people a lot more now. Especially younger people!!!

Ken_Shea
12-27-2010, 01:48 AM
Well lazlo, I will admit to that raising an eyebrow!

oldtiffie
12-27-2010, 02:11 AM
Its a big ask to think that all reporters - good and bad, but seemingly more so the bad - are objective and not subjective, vindictive or vexatious towards the vendor.

I don't doubt that there are vendors who are scalawags and miscreants etc. but that's the case just about everywhere.

I see lots of reports of stuff not being delivered in good condition and stuff that was not as represented by the vendor etc.

I can't recall a report where someone bid on something that was as described, arrived on time and in good condition but was not what the buyer thought it was or that it did not suit his intended purpose or that he plain and only didn't want or need it (any more) but wanted his money back when it was his own fault.

So how about we give the too-often repeated (regurgitated?) moan, groan, bad-mouthing and bitching session and get back to machine tappers.

I'm sure that those who want more useful info on the "Tap-matic" type tools will appreciate it if they haven't given up waiting in disgust.

Ken_Shea
12-27-2010, 09:51 AM
OldTiffie, you need to re-read the OP, it was not asking how, or inquiring about anything.

I don't see the purpose or point of your whack at the other post and/or posters. I guess your off topic ramblings are more important then ours ;)

Mcgyver
12-27-2010, 05:03 PM
Somebody will have to explain to me how shilling can be a problem. Unless somebody is a complete idiot they bid only what the thing is worth to them. If a shill bids it up higher you lose. You are out nothing. If you win for less than or as much as you think the item is worth to you, you win. If you pay more than you think the item is worth to you, go to the top and re-read.

Where's the problem?
.

Where's the problem?!!! Its a complete misrepresentation. If I walk into a store there are asking prices. I can chose to buy or not....I can decide whether I even want to walk in in the first place knowing its a store. People go to an auction instead hoping for the chance of a bargain. Him secretly and deceitfully making sure his shills bid it up makes it in essence a store with an asking price, but lying and misrepresenting it as auction. If I want a store I'd go to a store, or to a auction with a high start or with a reserve bid.......what's wrong is the misrepresentation that its a legitimate auction, with a low start price and a final price determined by bona fide bidders. It wastes peoples time, and is deceitful and dishonest - business behaviour everyone should have a problem with. It also creates a false level of activity in the market which is in every other market (stock for example) is considered unsavory behaviour

Furthermore, if its not directly against an auctions rules, it is certainly is against the auctioneers representation to potential buyers. I surprised you don't see anything wrong with it.

lazlo
12-27-2010, 05:12 PM
Somebody will have to explain to me how shilling can be a problem. Unless somebody is a complete idiot they bid only what the thing is worth to them.

That's so naive it's laughable. It's the same argument that Ebay newbies claim that sniping doesn't help -- "just bid what you think the item is worth". Or, as Ebay sellers like to say: "Bid Early, Bid Often!"

Shilling is a hidden reserve. Or in the case of Ebay, a way of avoiding the reserve fees.
If you're bidding on this Tapmatic, and say for the purposes of discussion, bidder e**e I posted above is an employee of the seller and is bumping up the bids, then they've stolen an extra $20 - $30 from you. Much more, in the case of machine tools.

But you got the item for what it was worth to you! :rolleyes:

dp
12-27-2010, 05:15 PM
Where's the problem?!!! Its a complete misrepresentation. If I walk into a store there are asking prices. I can chose to buy or not....I can decide whether I even want to walk in in the first place knowing its a store. People go to an auction instead hoping for the chance of a bargain.

Mcgyver - you set the price on the auction. That is why it is called an auction. If you set the price too high then the list of persons you need to complain to is refreshingly small. As for hoping for a bargain, caveat emptor still applies.

I have had Ebay experiences where I will be the only bidder, or have been the top bidder for some time only to see in the final minutes somebody inching the bid up with a series of small bids. The obvious thought is somebody is a nut or somebody doesn't know how proxy bids work, or somebody, a shill, is trying to maximize the existing proxy bid without actually winning the bid. I don't care because I've already established for my satisfaction what I'm willing to pay. Sure I'd like to pay less, but I'm not willing to pay more so if I win the auction I've won on my terms. If I lose, I lose on my terms.

I am aware of retaliatory bids, too. That is where you've held the lead for some time and again, in the final minutes somebody who wants it more than you will outbid you. In retaliation you bid above what you had initially bid but not enough more to ensure you win. In the event you do win you then brag it up how you out-gunned some so and so on Ebay and won the prize even though you paid more than you wanted. That is winning? I think not.

But auctions tend to bring out the craziness in people. I run an online auction and have seen it all.

Alistair Hosie
12-27-2010, 05:16 PM
What is the point of having a negative/positive system, if when people get over a hundred negs a year they are still allowed to continue.
In my opinion it makes a mockery of the whole system after so many negatives you should be struck of for six months after another such number a year and then for good.Otherwise people just clock up negative points with impunity.My 2 cents. Alistair

dp
12-27-2010, 05:16 PM
But you got the item for what it was worth to you! :rolleyes:

That is the same way I buy eggs, butter, and beans. I don't pay more than I think the thing is worth and I always get what I pay for.

lazlo
12-27-2010, 05:21 PM
I have had Ebay experiences where I will be the only bidder, or have been the top bidder for some time only to see in the final minutes somebody inching the bid up with a series of small bids. The obvious thought is...

a shill, is trying to maximize the existing proxy bid without actually winning the bid. I don't care because I've already established for my satisfaction what I'm willing to pay.

:eek: So you don't care that the Seller is stealing money from you, because you're still paying "What it's worth to you"?! :confused:

I have a bridge in Arizona I want to sell you Dennis...

dp
12-27-2010, 05:27 PM
:eek: So you don't care that the Seller is stealing money from you, because you're still paying "What it's worth to you"?! :confused:

I have a bridge in Arizona I want to sell you Dennis...

It is impossible for a shill/seller to steal money from me. I have bid what I am willing (and expect) to pay. There are any number of unpredictable reasons why I may get away with paying less, and that is fine, but there is no way I will be compelled to pay more than I am content to pay.

It works that way at a live auction, too. I bid once. I win or I lose. If a shill outbids me he wins and the item shows up again next week (happens all the time). If I see it I will bid again what I bid previous. Sometimes I win, sometimes somebody else wants it more than I do and they win, or sometimes the shill wins again. I'm out nothing, regardless. Explain again how the shill steals from me.

philbur
12-27-2010, 05:36 PM
Think a little and you will see a number of reasons why your proposal would not work.

Phil:)


What is the point of having a negative/positive system, if when people get over a hundred negs a year they are still allowed to continue.
In my opinion it makes a mockery of the whole system after so many negatives you should be struck of for six months after another such number a year and then for good.Otherwise people just clock up negative points with impunity.My 2 cents. Alistair

lazlo
12-27-2010, 05:36 PM
It is impossible for a shill/seller to steal money from me. I have bid what I am willing to pay.

Explain again how the shill steals from me.

Seriously?

So you're bidding on this Tapmatic, and it's worth $100 to you, and you decide to just put your $100 bid out there, rather than snipe it.
You out-bid the legitimate bidders, and the bidding is up to $50, but the seller was really hoping to get more money for the item.

So he logs-in to his e**e account, and carefully bids the Tapmatic up to $100, knowing that Ebay newbies usually place proxy bids on even amounts.

Congratulations, he's stolen $50 from you.

By the way, if he accidentally *wins* his own auction, as he apparently did with Question Boy's instrument lathe, then he just waits a polite period of time and re-lists it, so he has nothing to lose.

dp
12-27-2010, 05:53 PM
Seriously?

So you're bidding on this Tapmatic, and it's worth $100 to you, and you decide to just put your $100 bid out there, rather than snipe it.

I'm not sure you understand everything you are describing. If the thing is worth $100 to me that is what I will bid. I don't have to snipe it. If I really want it I may snipe it, but I still won't bid more than $100.

I rarely bid at all until the clock is under 30 seconds as that is when it is obvious what the likely price range will be and if it is still under my limit.


You out-bid the legitimate bidders, and the bidding is up to $50, but the seller was really hoping to get more money for the item.

So he logs-in to his e**e account, and carefully bids the Tapmatic up to $100, knowing that Ebay newbies usually place proxy bids on even amounts.

Congratulations, he's stolen $50 from you.

He hasn't stolen anything. I offered $100 and that is what I pay. If I wished to pay only $50 then that is what my bid would have been. In a proxy bid world your full bid is always considered at risk. If proxy bidding causes you to believe money is stolen from you then don't do it. Bid only the minimum. The whole idea of proxy bidding is to allow you to participate in the auction even when you are busy doing other things. It is not a requirement. My method of bidding only in the last 30 seconds frequently saves me money because while I limit my maximum bid I often will win at less than the max.

The existence of bidbots makes the entire concept of shills moot anyway. Bidbots will quickly and incrementally walk up the current bid to the least amount necessary to create a hidden reserve as you suggest, or to win. It is interesting to watch some auctions where bidbots are clearly bidding against each other as they knickel-dime each other with dozens of bids in the blink of an eye.



By the way, if he accidentally *wins* his own auction, as he apparently did with Question Boy's instrument lathe, then he just waits a polite period of time and re-lists it, so he has nothing to lose.

I described that in my description of live auctions.

lazlo
12-27-2010, 06:11 PM
I rarely bid at all until the clock is under 30 seconds as that is when it is obvious what the likely price range will be and if it is still under my limit.

LOL! So you sort-of snipe :)


He hasn't stolen anything. I offered $100 and that is what I pay.

An auction isn't a store. By shilling, which is illegal in most places, including Ebay, the seller has literally stolen $50 from you that you would not have paid if the seller didn't resort to illegal selling practices.


The existence of bidbots makes the entire concept of shills moot anyway.

No, it doesn't! A rather famous Ebay machine tool dealer listed a beat-up Maho CNC machine, and it sold for thousands more than Don's pristine Maho (exact same model). The shills were out in force, bumping up the bidding. Even though the vast majority of experienced Ebay buyers snipe, the shills have raised the base price by thousands of dollars.

Even if everyone sniped (i.e., no one bid until the auction closed), shilling still works -- as long as you shill/snipe a bid that's a small increment below what you think the maximum amount a buyer is willing to pay for the item. That's why big-ticket items are re-listed so many times -- there's much more of a chance of the shill bidder guessing wrong and ending up with the item.


It is interesting to watch some auctions where bidbots are clearly bidding against each other as they knickel-dime each other with dozens of bids in the blink of an eye.

That's not what's happening Dennis. The vast majority of experienced buyers *only* snipe. So if you see an item just sitting there, with no bids, it's meaningless. What happens is the auction closes, and Ebay resolves all the snipes. The "Bidbots" are not bidding against each other -- there's just one snipe per bidder.

dp
12-27-2010, 06:42 PM
That's not what's happening Dennis. The vast majority of experienced buyers *only* snipe. So if you see an item just sitting there, with no bids, it's meaningless. What happens is the auction closes, and Ebay resolves all the snipes. The "Bidbots" are not bidding against each other -- there's just one snipe per bidder.

You are talking about one-shot snipe bots and I am talking about bidbots. They are two different things.

Here's a short article: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20060731/2254225.shtml

dp
12-27-2010, 06:56 PM
Even if everyone sniped (i.e., no one bid until the auction closed), shilling still works -- as long as you shill/snipe a bid that's a small increment below what you think the maximum amount a seller is willing to pay for the item. That's why big-ticket items are re-listed so many times -- there's much more of a chance of the shill bidder guessing wrong and ending up with the item.

It is impossible for a shill to run the bid up higher than you are willing to pay. There is no theft. The possible worst cases are you win and pay what your max bid was, or you lose, the shill wins, and the item is listed again later.

The only thing a shill can do is cause you to pay as much as you were willing to pay. If there were no shill you may get the item for less, but there are no guarantees another bidder won't bid as much your max bid less the difference for minimum increment.

So if you and I both bid on something and my max bid is $1.00 less than your max bid and you win, I have somehow stolen some money from you? Get the tinfoil out.

oldtiffie
12-27-2010, 07:04 PM
OldTiffie, you need to re-read the OP, it was not asking how, or inquiring about anything.

I don't see the purpose or point of your whack at the other post and/or posters. I guess your off topic ramblings are more important then ours ;)

Ken.

Here is the OP:

Title:

Tapmatic attachment for cheap!

Text:

Tapmatic attachment for sale on Ebay. Cheap!
I'm not affiliated with the seller. Just thought somebody here could use it.
Link:
Tapmatic (http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-TAPMATIC-NCR50-TAPPING-ATTACHMENT-W-1-SHANK_W0QQitemZ130468387742QQcategoryZ104236QQcmdZ ViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286.m7QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DLVI%2 6itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid% 3D5926332090538976323)

As I understand it the OP was posting the link in case someone was interested in a Tapmatic tapper presumably and possibly with an interest in buying it/one.

The thread flew off at a tangent on a rant about eBay selling/buying and the particular vendor in the eBay link.

It seemed to me that had been done to death - as often happens - and the matter of the tapper itself had been side-lined - as also happens all too often.

The discussion on the tapper - when it eventually happened - on another thread - was very good - and hopefully met the requirements of the OP and others.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=45499

dp
12-27-2010, 07:41 PM
The op was only an announcement regarding the auction of the tapper. That left the discussion properly open to talk about the auction, ebay, the seller, and the tapper, and that is what happened. The branch of the discussion that went directly to the characteristics of the tapper warranted a new thread as it was not specifically on topic in this thread, and the conversation regarding that would have been lost behind the title of the OP.

Ken_Shea
12-27-2010, 07:45 PM
oldtiffie,
post running off on a tangent is just the way it is, getting all involved is not going to stop it, just annoy you more. It doesn't make any real difference, bend with it.
There are many, many good topics, and many many rambling post, I usually enjoy them all, or ignore them. :)
I admit there are some post that annoy the crap out of me, but it does not last because no one cares that I or anyone else may get fuzzed, so no need to exert the energy to correct it. I don't always practice what I preach but generally do, it is just not any big deal when it all gets boiled down.

oldtiffie
12-27-2010, 07:51 PM
Thanks Ken.

It must be disappointing at least for the OP to have gone to that trouble with a view of helping someone only to be ignored and to have his thread hi-jacked and diverted to an all too frequent rant about eBay.

I wonder how many other potentially useful and informative threads are just not posted as "just not worth it" and never see the light of day.

Ken_Shea
12-27-2010, 08:03 PM
oldtiffie, make no mistake, I am not in disagreement with your very valid points.

My only point is, it's not going to stop, it has on many occasion even led to something beneficial.

I generally try not to lead post astray, but once they are on their way, I do admit to joining in ;)

dp
12-27-2010, 08:09 PM
It must be disappointing at least for the OP to have gone to that trouble with a view of helping someone only to be ignored and to have his thread hi-jacked and diverted to an all too frequent rant about eBay.

I wonder how many other potentially useful and informative threads are just not posted as "just not worth it" and never see the light of day.

It was hardly ignored. All the merits and demerits of pursuing that auction were discussed. After reading it through a person will have a better understanding of the risks involved in that specific auction and about auctions in general.

As for what hit the light of day, AllThumbz started a new thread specifically regarding the interest he had in tappers and they were dissected rather well there. It also inspired me to do up another blog page regarding the Tapmatic version I have, and to describe some of the nuances not obvious from reading the BBS or looking at the printed manual. This has been a pretty successful thread, all in all.

oldtiffie
12-27-2010, 08:46 PM
Dennis.

I think that AllThumbz may have started a new thread as the only viable alternative to getting specific tapper-related information that he wanted that in my opinion should have been provided in this thread.

But I am in no position to speak for AllThumbz as that is for him to say - if he wishes.

dp
12-27-2010, 09:20 PM
Dennis.

I think that AllThumbz may have started a new thread as the only viable alternative to getting specific tapper-related information that he wanted that in my opinion should have been provided in this thread.

But I am in no position to speak for AllThumbz as that is for him to say - if he wishes.

I actually did provide some personal info on page 1 of this thread even after it started leaning steeper toward what the OP was about which was Ebay. That was when it occurred to me that the tapper info would have a better home in a thread of its own. I posted a whimsical note to that effect that fell flat on its face as whimsy goes, but did result in a separate post specifically about tappers.

John Stevenson
12-27-2010, 09:41 PM
I find it amusing that people post a link to an Ebay auction as cheap when it still has 2 plus days to run.

The only time you guess it's cheap is 5 seconds before the auction finished and 5 seconds after to prove it.

Nothing of Reliables sells cheap, it always makes market value. They list machining centres at 99 cents start price but they always get market value or close to it.

Take a look at this auction
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=160517459669

Bridgy started at 99 cents, made $6,600 were they taking a chance?

Then take a look at r***r(2) 339 bids and all on Reliables auctions but only ever managed to buy two items.

oldtiffie
12-27-2010, 09:48 PM
Dennis.

It would have been more thoughtful, considerate and a lot better mannered and a lot less rude and self-indulgent if the rant ("discussion"?) about the eBay vendor and the adverse rants about eBay in general were on a separate thread with this thread as a starting reference or link if needs be.

If that had happened it is a lot more likely that it would have dealt with the issues as it was in AllThumbz new thread which may not have been needed.

dp
12-27-2010, 10:22 PM
Tiffie - the OP was about an Ebay auction which necessarily includes Ebay and the seller. It was AllThumbz who solidly set that course with the first reply. To his good credit he packed up his more interesting questions and hauled them over to a separate thread. I offered a story about my tapper, you chimed in that the OP's thread about an auction had been hijacked and we should be talking about a tapper in an auction thread then Lazlo and I discussed the nuances of proxy bidding and how shills are harmless to intelligent bidders. Now the conversation lay stagnating in two ponds, one being this one, the other being a withering conversation about the auction seller.

It's been a good day - nobody's in a drag-out death match, AllThumbz's BBS is safe from my participation, and you and I have settled this matter amicably. Doesn't get better than that.

oldtiffie
12-27-2010, 11:49 PM
Thanks Dennis - appreciated.

I do think it would be a good idea to have a "Google rants" listed in the "Favourite Threads" "sticky".

It may solve a lot of problems and act as a lightning rod and as a means for "eBay ranters" to vent and let off stream and let a few more threads generally stay with HSM-ing.

Mcgyver
12-28-2010, 12:29 AM
Thanks Dennis - appreciated.

I do think it would be a good idea to have a "Google rants" listed in the "Favourite Threads" "sticky".
.

cripes, and if we added another sticky and put all OT's rants after 5 pages about threads running away from what he thinks the OP thinks , we'd have nothing to talk about after 4 pages. might just have to do some work.

come on OT, your posting concerning OP's mind, intent or unrequited curiosity for the subject after half a dozen pages are soon to eclipse lathe levelling and knurling as topics of tedium putting things in the mud up to the axles. Let the OP's whine for themselves if they either are still tuned in (unlikely if they have any interest in shop accomplishments, thats where they'll be) or interested (perhaps more unlikely). It will always happen, its the OP's responsibility to keep asking or bring it back on topic if they're not getting what they need

Paul Alciatore
12-28-2010, 01:45 AM
Sniping, bid bots, etc. They exist. Live with it. Bid what it is worth to you and if you get it, it was worth it. Don't get excited and bid more - last minute or not, don't bid more.

If anyone is interested in a used tapping head you might contact ATI. They had a bunch the last time I was in their warehouse. No bidding, just buy it. Honest people. They are on the web:

http://www.usedtooling.com/home.php?xid=76f6177fae861502f276b5cc4a860b09

All the usual disclaimers.