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Evan
12-27-2010, 12:38 PM
I found some very interesting paint for my telescope. It is a clear colour coat that goes on beautifully. I am putting it on over a brushed aluminum finish for appearance and maximum adhesion and the stuff is amazing. It sticks more like powder coat than paint. It is very fast drying as the main vehicle is acetone and the solids ratio is at least 50%. It is transparent and sandable for a super smooth finish. The most unusual feature is the high temperature resistance.

It is rated on the can for 500 degrees Fahrenheit. I have tested it and it is good for much higher. It doesn't become sticky and it doesn't smoke either. When I heated it to around 800F it finally began to change colour a bit but it still didn't destroy the coating.

This is very unusual for a clear polymer that is easily soluble in a common solvent like acetone. It isn't likely crosslinking as most crosslinked plastics are opaque and also require some sort of catalyst to cross link cold.

So what the heck is it? Transparent, hard to scratch, excellent adhesion and very high temperature resistance. Oh yeah, $10 per can.

http://ixian.ca/pics8/paint1.jpg


BTW, the fact that I am painting parts doesn't mean it is near being finished. It means that the weather isn't very cold.

http://ixian.ca/pics8/paint2.jpg

John Stevenson
12-27-2010, 12:46 PM
Can't answer the question Evan, paints aren't my thing but I have noticed that recently there have been great strides made in plastics that seen to have slipped by un noticed.

Bought a pie recently in an oven proof throw away flimsy plastic tray, stood the heat of the oven OK and when I threw all the burnable trash into the big workshop stove, this was included but it didn't burn, went wrinkly and misshapen but didn't melt or burn and this stove can make lumps off alloy go the same way ??

RKW
12-27-2010, 01:00 PM
Looks like a nice finish and a great alternative to anodizing. Nothing on the web site mentions use on aluminum but rather chrome. Have you given it any sort of scratch or abrasion testing yet?

millwrong
12-27-2010, 01:03 PM
A pie that won't burn,only wrinkles- yup that's the English food that I remember!:D

John Stevenson
12-27-2010, 01:16 PM
Goes well with frozen Bud rice wine :D :)

Evan
12-27-2010, 02:09 PM
This is the torture test piece. I t can be scratched if you press hard with a scriber but you have to press hard. Any ordinary amount of pressure scratches the paint, not through the paint.

The circled area I just hit for ten seconds on an 8 inch steel wire wheel. It is wearing away the aluminum faster than the paint.

http://ixian.ca/pics8/paint3.jpg

form_change
12-27-2010, 02:43 PM
Evan, have a look at the MSDS for the paint - sometimes they say what the constituent parts are in enough detail that you can work out what the stuff is.

Michael

RKW
12-27-2010, 02:57 PM
Looks like you have a winner. Their primer/"adhesion promoter" might help a bit but it looks like it does fine by itself. Were you suggesting that $10 (cn?) was high? It seems pretty fair to me considering what it looks like from your pictures. Paint sure has come a long way over the years.


This is the torture test piece. I t can be scratched if you press hard with a scriber but you have to press hard. Any ordinary amount of pressure scratches the paint, not through the paint.

The circled area I just hit for ten seconds on an 8 inch steel wire wheel. It is wearing away the aluminum faster than the paint.

http://ixian.ca/pics8/paint3.jpg

boslab
12-27-2010, 03:10 PM
Glad yoyr feel better BTW, could this be crosslinking by UV, indicating some polyester resin, Acetone would be fine, along with Isoprop/Propanol/xylene etc, theres probably a smattering of cyclohexane in there looking at the surface finish, reflowed nicely.
how does it respond to acetone after cure?
regards
mark

Paul Alciatore
12-27-2010, 03:23 PM
I am curious about the warnings. It is plain that it is flammable, poisonous, and the can is explosive. Probably similar to most paints. But what other warnings does it have? What about breathing the vapors or spray? Anything that applies after it is dry?

Evan
12-27-2010, 04:01 PM
It says to wear an organic aerosol respirator when using ( I think they all say that now). I just open the garage doors with a fan pointing out. The fumes are not noxious smelling and acetone is non-toxic although it is a narcotic. The other solvents are more harmful but there isn't much of them based on the odour. It is a very low odour paint and once it dries I am curing it over the heater downstairs and it makes almost no smell. It doesn't have any warnings to wash hands like PTFE does so I would think that the breakdown products are relatively benign. That is, if you can get it to break down.

I think the aluminum will melt before the coating burns off. My IR thermometer only goes to 800F so I don't have an easy way to test it higher. Not that it matters unless I am observing the sun at the moment it goes supernova in which case it doesn't matter anyway. :eek:

lugnut
12-27-2010, 04:14 PM
Good looking stuff Evan, Thanks for make me aware of it. For those who want to see is applied, here is a link to a Youtube showing it being used. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHOebG6D8SU
I searched it on Google and it is sold by several auto supply sites including Amazon.com.. I think I will use it on the bumpers of my VW bug rat rod.

Evan
12-27-2010, 04:31 PM
Put on very thin coats as instructed. It will run like crazy otherwise. You want just enough for the first coat to form an unbroken film. It probably isn't a good idea to do it in warm weather as it will dry too quickly to flow together. Acetone evaporates very quickly.

dp
12-27-2010, 04:39 PM
I had a look at some youtube vids on this paint - that is pretty impressive stuff. I'll have to try it on some things here. Stenciling and pre-coloring backgrounds on CD's is something I've been exploring vs printing with expensive inkjet supplies.

aboard_epsilon
12-27-2010, 05:02 PM
Like the effect of that ..may give it a try sometime

meanwhile found the UK version of it

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VHT-SP451-BLUE-ANODIZED-FINISH-COLOR-COAT-PAINT-/110587094887?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item19bf812767

Ive tried the UK "VHT" make, exhaust coating before though ..wasnt that impressed ..we had another product here called "sperex" high temp paint..that was the dogs bollocks.. brilliant stuff ..seems to have disappeared though.

all the best.markj

darryl
12-28-2010, 03:53 AM
They're calling it enamel, and I found a reference to 'ceramic resins'. The msds doesn't identify any of the chemicals except the solvents. I saw one mention of barium cuprate.

I also saw a mention of flexible ceramics- could it be we're coming to a point with technology where extremely high temperature parts can be somewhat flexible at the same time? I wonder about the latest turbine blade materials- must be some advances in that field by now.

Soon the HSM guy will be able to spray coat the inside of an engine cylinder with something that is durable, low friction, and extreme heat resistant. At the same time it will be able to resist the expansion of the cylinder material. It will resist heat transfer through it, and will be a coating for the piston top, the valves, and the head surfaces. Maybe there will be some palladium mixed in with it to enhance combustion adjacent to the cylinder walls and the top of the piston, etc. Available in the hardware department at Freddies-

Perfect for large mirror solar collectors and telescope optics :)

Black_Moons
12-28-2010, 04:36 AM
Wow that looks nice. That shade of blue is my alltime favorate, The only way I really know how to discribe it as, is 'Hi beam indicator' blue.
Whats the exact 'colour' of that can you used? And what store did you find that paint at evan?

Evan
12-28-2010, 05:01 AM
Canadian Tire has it in the automotive section. They don't have all the colours here but it only comes in a few. Blue, red, yellow, green, magenta and smoke, I think.

That blue is also my favorite and I thought it was funny when I watched the application video because I bet myself that the guy was going to use blue. He did.

Black_Moons
12-28-2010, 05:13 AM
Awsome. I have a tiny billet intake manifold I made (Because I have a lathe, Not an aluminum/stainless steel welder, or any stainless steel plate handy, Not because billet is cool) that would look great In that blue I bet.. heh.

jackary
12-28-2010, 06:14 AM
Sounds like the paint required for graphiti once the street artists get hold of it.
Alan

John Stevenson
12-28-2010, 06:25 AM
Sounds like the paint required for graphiti once the street artists get hold of it.
Alan

They will have to pay cash for it, have you ever tried signing a cheque with a rattle can ? :D

topct
12-28-2010, 08:13 AM
There have been similar products is use for years. The first one I remember seeing was a brush on type that you could paint onto all the chrome knobs on dashboards. That was in the mid to late sixties. It attempted to give a gold plated look.

You have to be careful around screw holes especially counter sunk ones. If you are using any lock washers you need to use a flat under it. After it "fully" cures it becomes brittle and can chip easily around the edge of the hole. It does stick pretty well, but there isn't a bonding agent in it of any kind so it can chip off of smooth surfaces if not handled with care.

Another note for those considering using it around higher temperatures. The heating cooling cycles will increase it's brittleness considerably so applications on top of chrome plated parts that encounter heat require extra care in handling.

airsmith282
12-28-2010, 08:37 AM
looks to me like its hi heat manifold or caliper paint considering the color more likey for calaipers we buy that stuff at canadian tire, works pretty slick to on cylinder heads not so good on mufflers that are subjet to hi heat but the stuff works good as lond as you stay with in the heat ranges

Evan
12-28-2010, 08:46 AM
There have been similar products is use for years. The first one I remember seeing was a brush on type that you could paint onto all the chrome knobs on dashboards. That was in the mid to late sixties. It attempted to give a gold plated look.


I don't think this is the same formula. You got me wondering so I just did a couple of tests. I drilled and countersunk a hole to see if it would chip around the edge. None. Then I bent both ends to see if it would stretch or flake instead. It stretched and stayed stuck, even the end I baked. That was surprising. Ignore the funny colour. The picture was taken under an RGB LED.

http://ixian.ca/pics8/paint4.jpg

http://ixian.ca/pics8/paint5.jpg

airsmith282
12-28-2010, 08:50 AM
all your questions will be answered here for that paint

http://www.duplicolor.com/products/metalCast/

Evan
12-28-2010, 08:54 AM
all your questions will be answered here for that paint


Except the question I asked, which is what is the polymer from which the paint is made.

wierdscience
12-28-2010, 08:57 AM
Cool! Liquid orbital re-entry heat shield in a can:)

topct
12-28-2010, 09:14 AM
I drilled and countersunk a hole to see if it would chip around the edge. None.

That would solve the chipping around the hole problem. I was more concerned with the coating being applied over predrilled holes. But then it would be easy to scrape the paint out by hand with the same countersink.

It looks like you won't have any problems with it. Used on a telescope that is going to be handled very carefully it should hold up pretty well.

CCWKen
12-28-2010, 09:18 AM
Can't help with the polymer but I know it works great for coloring bulbs too. A couple of coats of the yellow makes a superb amber. I searched high and low for a transparent color to coat 6v auto bulbs. (Ever try to find an amber 6v bulb? It ain't happening.) And it stands up to the heat of incandescent bulbs.

These are oil side-lamps to an antique vehicle. They were converted to use a bulb and act as turn signals without changing the original look.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/CCWKen/Sidelamp-TurnSignalsoff.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/CCWKen/Sidelamp-TurnSignals.jpg

airsmith282
12-28-2010, 09:18 AM
Except the question I asked, which is what is the polymer from which the paint is made.

ask the company that makes it would be my sudjestion on that then

iam sure they will tell you, i have always had good luck with getting my answers from the companys i want answers from..

Evan
12-28-2010, 09:21 AM
ask the company that makes it would be my sudjestion on that then


Ha ha. Very funny.

vpt
12-28-2010, 10:02 AM
I like the blue color, looks like some great stuff! I'll have to remember to check this stuff out next time I'm out.

lazlo
12-28-2010, 10:05 AM
Evan, have a look at the MSDS for the paint - sometimes they say what the constituent parts are in enough detail that you can work out what the stuff is.

According to the MSDS, it's just an ordinary enamel with Chromium added for the metal flake.

http://www.paintdocs.com/webmsds/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=DUPLI&prodno=026916006394&doctype=MSDS&lang=2

It's dirt cheap at AutoZone, I'll have to try it. I just used the DupliColor high temperature ceramic engine enamel on an old arbor press I restored. I haven't whacked it to see how durable it is :)

By the way, I didn't know Duplicolor was a Sherwin-Williams subsidiary.

Evan
12-28-2010, 10:23 AM
According to the MSDS, it's just an ordinary enamel with Chromium added for the metal flake.



Not the same thing. This isn't metal flake paint. It is transparent, as in clear with only colour. Also, enamels don't use acetone as a vehicle. Also, the colour isn't pigment, it's a dye.

lazlo
12-28-2010, 10:28 AM
Not the same thing. This isn't metal flake paint.

Evan, that's the MSDS sheet for "Duplicolor Metalcast" paint, which is the can in your first picture:

http://www.duplicolor.com/products/metalCast/

http://www.paintdocs.com/webmsds/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=DUPLI&prodno=026916006394&doctype=MSDS&lang=2


Metalcast™

Dupli-Color® Metalcast™ Anodized Color turns ordinary chrome pieces into a bright, transparent-colored metallic finish in an easy one-step process. Metalcast is a durable enamel finish that is oil, gas, and heat resistant to 500° F intermittently, making it ideal for interior, exterior, and high-heat applications under the hood. Specially formulated to work over properly prepared shiny, bare metal, and faux chrome-like surfaces.

http://ixian.ca/pics8/paint2.jpg

lazlo
12-28-2010, 10:31 AM
This is the Duplicolor Ceramic Engine Enamel I used last week:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/311-NLxcokL._SS400_.jpg

It doesn't seem remarkably different from any good quality rattlecan paint that I've used, but then again, I don't have the hardest concrete in the world :p

Evan
12-28-2010, 10:33 AM
So what? Remember, I was a photocopier repairman. Some of the colour systems that I worked on cost $300,000. They use very similar polymers that must withstand up to 450F without discolouring. It isn't enamel and it isn't metal flake. Besides, enamel is a generic term but it generally does not describe transparent coatings that are dye based with an acetone solvent.

lazlo
12-28-2010, 10:35 AM
It isn't enamel and it isn't metal flake.

?? From that Duplicolor page I linked, describing their Metalcast product:


"Metalcast is a durable enamel"

The chromium is because that line of paint is intended to look like faux annodize.

Evan
12-28-2010, 10:38 AM
There is NO METAL FLAKE in the product. It is water clear.

Enamels are oil based pigment coloured paints.

lazlo
12-28-2010, 10:42 AM
There is NO METAL FLAKE in the product. It is water clear

Duplicolor doesn't list clear Metalcast paint. Are you using the clear "Ground Coat", which is their Metalcast primer? The Metalcast line is intended for painting chromed engine covers, which is the reason for the chromium in the colors (so it looks like annodize).

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/Metalcast.jpg

Evan
12-28-2010, 10:47 AM
Clear blue, like water. A thin coat is a very light blue, aqua in colour. There is no metal flake in any of the colours, only dye. Instead of arguing why don't you go buy a can and see for yourself?

John Stevenson
12-28-2010, 10:48 AM
So what? Remember, I was a photocopier repairman. Some of the colour systems that I worked on cost $300,000.

So you got an absolute bargain for $10 but why if you are soooo knowledgeable are you asking the question ?

Paint your house with it next year, it will save you having to put fireproof siding on

lazlo
12-28-2010, 10:49 AM
So you got an absolute bargain for $10 but why if you are soooo knowledgeable are you asking the question ?

'Cause everything is better in Williams Lake :) Duplicolor is $4/can at AutoZone.



Instead of arguing why don't you go buy a can and see for yourself?

I'd like to, but I can't reconcile what you're saying with the product information on the Duplicolor Metalcast web page. What model number is your paint can?

Evan
12-28-2010, 10:57 AM
I'd like to, but I can't reconcile what you're saying with the product information on the Duplicolor Metalcast web page. What model number is your paint can?

Lets see now. I have the product here and have been using it. I still have reasonably good eye sight and know what metal flake paint looks like. You on the other hand are mis-reading advertising hype on a web page but that makes you and expert. :rolleyes:


So you got an absolute bargain for $10 but why if you are soooo knowledgeable are you asking the question ?


I thought 10 dollars was rather high, not cheap. I am asking the question because I don't know what polymer is in the paint. Neither do you. Do you have a point to make or are you just in a trolling mood today?


What model number is your paint can?


It will be the model number for the can that is labled in French and English.

lazlo
12-28-2010, 11:18 AM
I have the product here and have been using it. I still have reasonably good eye sight and know what metal flake paint looks like.

It will be the model number for the can that is labled in French and English.

Evan. It's not advertising hype. I need to know the model number of the can of paint you bought, so I can try some!

The French/English model number is fine.

airsmith282
12-28-2010, 11:28 AM
not trying to be a jeck Evan but
this was your words
BTW, the fact that I am painting parts doesn't mean it is near being finished. It means that the weather isn't very cold

cold or hot makes no real difference, when the temps are below the reccomned temps for painting with a particular paint just means it will take longer to dry if the temps are colder,

i dont understand why it would matter what polymer is in the paint, if it works for what you want to do with it then get her done,

as for hype i can see the reasoning there, they claim it has such a good color fininsh but then you buy the stuff and it does not produce the same results , use clear coat over top and you might see a good difference 90% of the time, i got some so called nice glossy metalic car paint once same stuff metalcast the can did not mention the need for clear coat, it was glossy but not as the can or the lid showed not untill the clear coat went on it,the it was dam nice , who would have thought it would help to use the clear coat, only problem is clear coat is not heat rated to the same temps so you cant use clear coat on an engine block or muffler even calipers dont like it so its a pic and choose game there but on parts not subject to hi temps the hi temp paint is nice with the clear coat on it..and is pretty close to as advertised, dont forget alot of companys also will photoshop stuff just as we see pics from space, its mind game thing to get you to buy buy buy...

dp
12-28-2010, 11:38 AM
I'd like to, but I can't reconcile what you're saying with the product information on the Duplicolor Metalcast web page. What model number is your paint can?

Where did you see the paint contains chromium?

lazlo
12-28-2010, 11:40 AM
Where did you see the paint contains chromium?

In the MSDS I posted for the colored Metalcast. It's how they get the faux annodize look.

The clear "Ground Coat" is a primer, and doesn't have chromium in it.

Ken_Shea
12-28-2010, 11:42 AM
Evan,
Did you use the adhesive promoter?

lazlo
12-28-2010, 11:48 AM
Did you use the adhesive promoter?

Are you supposed to use Duplicolor Adhesion Promoter with the Metalcast (as shown in the Youtube Video), or are you supposed to use the Metalcast "Ground Coat" -- which appears to be the primer specifically for Metalcast?

This is Duplicolor's description of the Ground Coat:

"To achieve the anodized metal look on non-metal and/or painted surfaces, first prime with the high heat resistant, fast-drying Ground Coat. Follow with Dupl-Color METALCAST(TM) Anodized Color Paint."

Evan
12-28-2010, 11:50 AM
In the MSDS I posted for the colored Metalcast. It's how they get the faux annodize look.



I know what you are looking at. They have a silver metalflake primer to use over dark coloured parts. That is where the metalflake is. The MSDS covers all the products but only that metalflake primer has metal in it. I didn't buy any because I am putting it on freshly brushed aluminum. It doesn't need an adhesion promoter because the mechanical adhesion is plenty good enough.

dp
12-28-2010, 11:54 AM
In the MSDS I posted for the colored Metalcast. It's how they get the faux annodize look.

The clear "Ground Coat" is a primer, and doesn't have chromium in it.

I didn't see the word "chrom..." in any form in that link or anywhere on their site.

lazlo
12-28-2010, 11:58 AM
I didn't see the word "chrom..." in any form in that link or anywhere on their site.

Sigh.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/Metalcast2.jpg

Evan
12-28-2010, 12:00 PM
I emailed Duplicolour. Perhaps one of their reps will explain the system in detail here if it doesn't take George too long to approve them to post.

The chromium is ONLY in the base coat for use on non metallic and dark coloured surfaces. There is no metal in the top coat.

As for why I want to know what the polymer is, I would like to be able to determine the compatibility with other coating and liquids. I also want to know what the outgassing properties are if it is sitting in hot sun at high altitude since that could affect a mirror. I doubt it will be a problem but I will be building a cover for the mirror anyway. Some paints do outgas and can leave a haze on mirrors.

lazlo
12-28-2010, 12:06 PM
The chromium is ONLY in the base coat for use on non metallic and dark coloured surfaces. There is no metal in the top coat.

When you get a chance Evan, post the model number on your can so we can try some...

laddy
12-28-2010, 12:08 PM
I watched the videos. Neat looking stuff. I have a 1939 dodge that needs a patch of "chrome" on the bumper where it was scrapped off. I have used touch up stuff in the past but it isn't too close. Noticed in the videos that the cap was replaced on the cans without inverting the can and blasting it till it cleared the valve. Is that no longer necessary??

Evan
12-28-2010, 12:13 PM
He probably just skipped that step. I am guessing he had some spare cans lying around somewhere.

#CMC 201 Blue/Bleu

lazlo
12-28-2010, 12:14 PM
Did you notice that he's spraying right next to someone's brand-new F-350? :)

Evan
12-28-2010, 12:20 PM
I did notice that but the stuff dries so fast that by the time it lands on it it will be dust.

CCWKen
12-28-2010, 02:07 PM
Sheeeze.... That Chromium is an oxide, as in Cr2O3. That's what Chromium III means in the MSDS. It's the pigment. ("Coloring" for you uneducated.) :rolleyes:

There's NO metal flake or other solids to make the paint opaque. It's transparent! Like Evan said about 10 times. And it wasn't just made for valve covers. I've also used it on disk callipers, brake drums, light bulbs, dash boards or on any thing you want "candy colored". It comes in red, green, yellow, and blue that I know of, probably more now. What's great about it is that it sticks to bare metal and glass. I bought six cans of the yellow because I heard they were going to stop selling it (in the US). I paid $7 a can last year.

Go buy a can and spray it on something before you contradict first-hand descriptions. :cool:

darryl
12-28-2010, 04:11 PM
It's probably liquid aluminum oxide- a mystery ingredient makes it liquid at room temperature. :)

duckman
12-28-2010, 05:30 PM
Evan have you tried spraying highly polished aluminum with this paint I have some parts on my kit car that would really stand out if it works on polished aluminum. And as an aside I put your coordinates in to Google maps and looked around a bit what is the field that is to the left and up, it looks like they drove 200 miles just to harvest the crop if thats what they did just being nosy.

lazlo
12-28-2010, 05:49 PM
Sheeeze.... That Chromium is an oxide, as in Cr2O3. That's what Chromium III means in the MSDS. It's the pigment. ("Coloring" for you uneducated.) :rolleyes:

...and yet, Duplicolor describes it as a "transparent metallic" paint. Geez, what pigment ("coloring" for you uneducated), would you add to the paint to make it look metallic. It would be an ingredient in all the colors they show. Hmmm, maybe chromium? :rolleyes:


Duplicolor doesn't list clear Metalcast paint. Are you using the clear "Ground Coat", which is their Metalcast primer? The Metalcast line is intended for painting chromed engine covers, which is the reason for the chromium in the colors (so it looks like annodize).

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/Metalcast.jpg

...


It comes in red, green, yellow, and blue that I know of, probably more now.

Thank you Ken, that was a very helpful post. :rolleyes:

aboard_epsilon
12-28-2010, 05:59 PM
The only thing that I'm puzzling over is ...

if you paint aluminium ..you are supposed to put etch primer on it ...

so i wonder, if exposed to the elements..road salt, wetness damp cycles etc ..that oxidisation would all come bubbling out from underneath it .

all the best.markj

Evan
12-28-2010, 06:08 PM
so i wonder, if exposed to the elements..road salt, wetness damp cycles etc ..that oxidisation would all come bubbling out from underneath it .


The idea of paint is to prevent that from happening.

lazlo
12-28-2010, 06:15 PM
Evan, have you had a chance to look up the part number of the paint you used? Is it MC201?

I'll be painting a stock rack I just finished welding -- I want to give it a try if it's impact resistant.

Evan
12-28-2010, 06:19 PM
...and yet, Duplicolor describes it as a "transparent metallic" paint. Geez, what pigment ("coloring" for you uneducated), would you add to the paint to make it look metallic. It would be an ingredient in all the colors they show. Hmmm, maybe chromium?

All you are succeeding in doing is making yourself look foolish, at the best. Has it occured to you that all I need to do is spray some on some glass and take a few micrographs? You really need to thinks things through before sticking you foot in your mouth, again.

Cr III is Chromium trioxide and is a transparent dye. It has not the slightest metallic appearance any more than copper sulphate does. It isn't a pigment, it is a dye and the paint colouring system relies on the metal over which it is applied to look metallic.

aboard_epsilon
12-28-2010, 06:21 PM
The idea of paint is to prevent that from happening.

if you paint aluminium without etching ..it will bubble and flake off within a couple of years guaranteed ..with the thin coats this product requires ..maybe even more guaranteed.

i dont know ..about this product ..admitted ..but what i say above has been learn-ed from years of experience ..the hard way.

all the best.markj

Evan
12-28-2010, 06:26 PM
Since it appears that the dye is in part Chromium trioxide the paint is self etching which explains why it adheres to aluminum so well. Another name for CrIII is chromic acid, the preferred treatment for painting aluminum. .

aboard_epsilon
12-28-2010, 06:27 PM
All you are succeeding in doing is making yourself look foolish, at the best. Has it occured to you that all I need to do is spray some on some glass and take a few micrographs? You really need to thinks things through before sticking you foot in your mouth, again.

Cr III is Chromium trioxide and is a transparent dye. It has not the slightest metallic appearance any more than copper sulphate does. It isn't a pigment, it is a dye and the paint colouring system relies on the metal over which it is applied to look metallic.

it's described as metallic ..because you can see the shine of the metal through the paint ..

i suppose you could add some sort of translucent pigment to clear lacquer and have the same results but softer and without the heat resistance .

most heat resistant DIY coatings ..ive tried out seem to be semi porous ..so allowing exhausts etc to rust quite quickly after.

all the best.markj

CCWKen
12-28-2010, 08:32 PM
it's described as metallic ..because you can see the shine of the metal through the paint ..
BINGO! Don't know why that was so hard to comprehend.

Think of this coating as a candy color. It tints whatever it's sprayed over. The undercoat or surface being coated will be visible through the coating. It's transparent! If you spray it over metal or silver, it will look "metallic". If you spray it over white, it will look florescent. If you spray it over black, it will look... black. :rolleyes:

dp
12-28-2010, 08:47 PM
Sigh.


Stuff the theatrics. There must be more than one link as this is what I see in the link you posted in #33. No chromium mentioned:

http://metalworkingathome.com/images/msds.png

J. Randall
12-28-2010, 09:04 PM
Soon the HSM guy will be able to spray coat the inside of an engine cylinder with something that is durable, low friction, and extreme heat resistant. At the same time it will be able to resist the expansion of the cylinder material. It will resist heat transfer through it, and will be a coating for the piston top, the valves, and the head surfaces. Maybe there will be some palladium mixed in with it to enhance combustion adjacent to the cylinder walls and the top of the piston, etc. Available in the hardware department at Freddies-

Perfect for large mirror solar collectors and telescope optics :)

Darryl, a yr. or two back Hot Rod Mag did an article on some spray on stuff, they were coating piston tops and valve faces with it. I intended to make a note of the name and get some of it, but never got around to it.
James

darryl
12-28-2010, 09:47 PM
It's my opinion that a manufacturer may purposely omit some information if it is in their interest to protect the product from being duplicated by another company. Maybe that's what's happening in this case. Some other company can say 'hey, we can put that ingredient in and achieve the same qualities- then have a product that might even supercede an existing one.

They have listed all the solvents present in the product- that's likely the most important in terms of toxicity, health hazards, etc. They have not listed any other ingredient, but carefully used words to suggest what it might be (enamel) and maybe that's an evasive tactic. Where the word 'metallic' appears, it's probably about the same as saying 'digital' in regard to a product where possibly the only thing digital is that you can pick it up with your fingers. 'Metallic' sounds good, but they have not said metalflake, which it is not.

In any event, I've seen a few times where a good product is made, but carefully advertised to not draw attention to what might be a key ingredient. Seems in this case that to achieve the result, a better-than-normal ingredient has been used. In order to not price it out of the running, they have opted to not say what it is. That way they can avoid having to charge a premium for that special ingredient (which is probably pretty cheap anyway). As a manufacturer, you don't advertise a superior ingredient, then not charge for it. But if it's the only thing that will do the job, you use it and keep quiet about it. You hype up all the normal ingredients to make them sound great, then put a normal selling price on it.

Just rambling- this reminds me of Datsun- they put a hemi engine in some of their cars, but don't advertise it as such. They do it because they get an engine that runs great and gives good economy, which is what they wanted at the time, but they don't want to invite a problem from, say Dodge, who did advertise a hemi (maybe they invented it, I don't know). In any event, I think Toyota did the same, and who knows how much of this 'hiding of details' goes on.

One of the soda drinks I tried awhile ago has silicon brake fluid in it, but they don't actually say that's what it is- but they do list the chemical name as an ingredient (they probably have to since it's an ingestible product)

dneufell
12-28-2010, 10:39 PM
Thanks Evan....I have always liked that look.....I will try some on my cool scooter.......Dean

gwilson
12-28-2010, 11:02 PM
By definition,enamel contains pigments. They are not transparent. This "paint"(not a correct term either) is transparent.

I think it is actually a lacquer. I might warn you,Evan,that after several weeks, the finish could get a LOT harder,and more brittle than it now appears to be. Lacquers,and enamels,too,can take a LONG time to really get dry. I have used lacquers since the 50's. I have seen them shrink for over a year,revealing the pores in wood that I had previously sanded and rubbed to a piano finish. Once,a guitar I kept,after 6 months did that. I wet or dry sanded it,rubbed it,and got the surface pore free. A YEAR later,they were back,meaning that solvent was still slowly evaporating from the lacquer.

I sprayed my HLVH lathe with gray enamel,and it seemed way too soft to suit me for weeks. Eventually it got very hard,but only after months of being in a heated,never cold shop.

I am suggesting that the finish might not chip or crack now,but eventually might mar more easily,and shatter around future holes you might decide to drill long after the finish is applied. It might also chip away from the metal easily after it gets thoroughly dry.

I don't know why they are calling it enamel,but toluene and acetone are used in lacquers,not enamels,and this is not an opaque finish.

RPM
12-29-2010, 03:39 PM
Just a heads up to refute Airsmith's point - the temperature you are spraying your paint at is very important, especially when spraying metals. If the temp is too cold, moisture will start to condense on the surface as a very fine 'molecular' deposit, so fine as to be unseen by the naked eye.

It's possible that the first shot form the can might blow this microscopic condensation away, but not always -and don't ask how I know :-)

Unless you have warmed up the paint can before hand, the contents will be at the same temperature as the outside, causing the paint to atomise incorrectly, leading to all sorts of exciting problems.

Evan obviously knows what he's doing with that paint,or he wouldn't have got such a good finish

If it's too hot, the paint will rapidly dry out between the can and the work, creating as a minimum some orange-peel effects, and making it impossible for the paint to flow out at all.

just my 2 cents worth

Richard in Los Angeles, where you can almost spray all year round

Black_Moons
01-05-2011, 04:42 PM
Hmm, Tryed some of this paint on verious items the other day. Seems to chip off very easily off my test parts. Maybe I did'nt prep them well enough.. also only been 1 day in 10c~ at best garage..
Also, Looks just sorta boring blue on this cast aluminum I have.. Looks rather nice over the 'ground coat' however, And over turned aluminum.

Evan
01-05-2011, 07:00 PM
Clean the parts with oven cleaner and let them stay in it for ten minutes. Then rinse with boiling water and let cool. That will etch the metal and give the paint something to hold on to. Don't forget that I said at the beginning that I was putting this stuff on brushed aluminum. Very clean and a good surface to grab to. I have no idea what the adhesion is on a polished surface. I didn't try it.

Black_Moons
01-05-2011, 09:07 PM
Ahhh k. Btw, Im having problems on inside 90 degree corners with the paint, It seems to form a fillet at the corner, sucking paint away from the area near the corner, Result is a light blue around corners, then a dark dark blue in the corner, Any tips?

I don't really plan to try it on any polished surfaces. Some zinc/chrome coated surfaces... Did not seem to adhear to zinc -_-;

I assume by oven clean you mean sodium hydroxide/lye? Would potassium Hydroxide do?

Ken_Shea
01-05-2011, 09:24 PM
From your description it sounds like you are spraying to heavily, seems I recall in the video that they recommend several light coats.

Also too cold in your shop for best results, I bet the can says 70º and up.

For polished surfaces they say use the adhesion promoter.

Black_Moons
01-06-2011, 12:17 AM
Ah, I hope crappy tire has the adhesion promoter..

Evan
01-06-2011, 05:15 AM
Straight lye needs to have some soap added to lower the surface tension.

As for too cold Ken, not a chance. I tried spraying some parts outside at -20 and it worked better. It's the only paint I have seen that will fast dry below freezing and at that temperature it flows out really nice.

As for the corners and edges issue, that happens with any paint but is much more visible with a transparent coating. Very light coats is how to deal with it.

It is also important to follow the recommended time between coatings. Either respray within half an hour or wait one week.

Ken_Shea
01-06-2011, 09:04 AM
[quote=Evan]
As for too cold Ken, not a chance. I tried spraying some parts outside at -20 and it worked better. It's the only paint I have seen that will fast dry below freezing and at that temperature it flows out really nice. /quote]

Evan,
It may have been -20 outside but your material was not at -20 and most definitely and perhaps more importantly, the paint inside the can was not at those temperatures. I don't have a can too look at right now but I will later today by UPS :) I suspect that the manufacturer recommends that paint be with in a range of temperature for best performance.

Evan
01-06-2011, 08:17 PM
The paint can was stored in the garage where it is around freezing. The frame I was painting is thin aluminum and had been sitting for maybe five minutes so it was also very cold. More to the point was that the moment the paint began evaporating the frame probably would have cooled to the flash point of the acetone which coincidentally is -20C. It was still completely tack free within half an hour and it was not just a very thin coat.

The vapour pressure of acetone is high enough to act as a propellant by itself so the can being cold was not an issue. Since there is no pigment no shaking is required even though it says to shake the can. Dyes don't separate since they are in solution and not suspension. In fact, it is better to not shake the can with clear non pigment products since it may produce foaming and irregular spray behaviour.

doorknob
01-06-2011, 10:54 PM
Straight lye needs to have some soap added to lower the surface tension.




Can you provide some guidance or point me to a reference that talks about suggested solution concentrations (for the lye as well as the soap) suitable for etching aluminum?

Thanks...

Ken_Shea
01-06-2011, 11:48 PM
If it is something that is important I will go by the manufacturers suggestions, still it's good to know that it is quite flexible in use.

Got my 8 cans in today from Amazon, $16 delivered :)
Sign up for one of their Credit cards and get $40 bucks off your bill :D
.

Black_Moons
01-07-2011, 01:43 AM
Hmmm weird, If temp isent the problem, I wonder if it was my thick single coat that was the problem..

It seemed to have poor adheasion/strength for me to everything. Even onto the groundcoat on wood, it scraped off with little pressure with the tip of some random sissors I had at hand, 'flaked' off some zinc/aluminum parts that where not preped..
Been drying 2~ days now and still no improvement to strength, Dehumidifyed garage at around 10c~

Must admit, looks very nice over the ground coat/shiny aluminum. Looks rather bad over white/grey (Grey cast aluminum, Could be painted grey, hard to tell) however.
Oddly, it seemed to adhear the best to the white painted wood I used as a test.

How many coats was that test peice you metal brushed to destruction evan?
How thin where the coats?
And how long did they dry?
and in what temp before brushing?

Evan
01-07-2011, 05:34 AM
Lye solutions: About 2 tablespoons per litre of COLD water. Never add lye to hot water as it will make it boil over. Lye releases a lot of heat when it goes into solution. Add a few drops of liquid dish soap as a surfactant (Surface Active Agent).

First, anything with zinc in it must be acid etched for paint to adhere.

A single thick coat is definitely a problem as I also discovered. Perhaps the main difference is that I always bake cure any paint that I want to really stay stuck. I hang the parts over my free standing natural gas heater which brings them up to around 300 degrees fahrenheit. Leave them there for an hour or so.

Coat thickness is just enough to flow out over the previous coat. Don't try to build it up dark all at once or it will lift the previous coat and wrinkle.

If you can't brush the aluminum before painting then bake the aluminum at 250 to 300 degrees for half an hour. That will drive out any water in the form of aluminum hydrate that is present in the microscopically thin oxide layer on ALL bare aluminum. Allow to cool and paint immediately. Best is to lye etch aluminum first but it will dull a high polish slightly. Don't leave aluminum in a lye bath for more than 10 to 20 minutes or it will pit. Longer and it will weigh a lot less after a few hours.

Black_Moons
01-07-2011, 06:11 AM
Hmm, Seems the paint has hardened up a little bit more today, Plus I realised the sissors I was using basicly had a large radius on the tip that was acting like a broad scraper, hence why such big chips came off. Using a sharp point produces much smaller scratchs with no apparent chiping. Still comes off with very little force, but multiple thinner coats should help.

Any sanding beween coats?

I don't think I can submerse this engine cylinder without also eating the inside.. I think i'll just rough it up best I can and use the ground coat, The cylinder seems to be painted a dullish grey that does not do the color justice.

I guess I could bake the cylinder at least by running it, The crank stays pertty cool however..

Evan
01-07-2011, 10:13 AM
If you are trying to paint a used casting from an engine then the casting will be polluted with oil in the pores. You will need to boil it in soapy water to get the oil out for the paint to stick.

Black_Moons
01-07-2011, 05:34 PM
Eh, the engine has only been around the block a few times, But I plan to attack it with laqure thinner.

topct
01-07-2011, 05:47 PM
What kind of engine are you painting with this stuff?

Black_Moons
01-07-2011, 09:02 PM
A crappy chinese 49cc aircooled 2 stroke.

topct
01-08-2011, 08:09 AM
Okay, other than making a mess you are not going to hurt anything by trying it. This product really isn't meant for what you want to do with it. As mentioned unless you can return the castings to as new clean it's not going to stick very well at all.

That and the heat from an air cooled motor, the oil, and fuel, will cause nothing but grief.

However if you want to try it go ahead and see what happens. Your not going to do any permenant damage, and being sure that the stuff is being considered by others, you should show your results. A picture of the engine freshly done and one after it has been in use for awhile.