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wierdscience
12-17-2003, 10:41 PM
Well I just read the recent post about the content of HSM,MW,and having heard the comment about either being part of the solution or part of the problem I want to be part of the solution that is if one is needed.

I do not think that the hatchet job done on Neil is at all fair,the man does the best he possibly can to satisfy ALL of the readers of the publication not just a few.

I for one have been in the machine trades for 14 years and still counting,during the time I have subscribed I have found articles that I had little intrest for and ones that still blow my mind even now.

In the end the editor of any magazine is only human just like you and me(well not Thrud,he's from Krypton and wears a cape http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif)

I personally think that Neil is doing a fine job and would at this time like to offer any help I can in making his job easier or at least giving him more to choose from in the way of articles for submission,I have thought about submiting an article for a few years now but do not know what is required to do so(I promise I'll at least use spell check http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif).

So Neil,keep up the good work,if you need help ask and don't let the whinny,crotchety,complaining crowd get you down!

Ps,If you want e-mail me and tell me what you need for me to submit an article,my e-mail adress is right in my profile unlike some people.

mikem
12-17-2003, 11:06 PM
I agree with you wierd! I love HSM and MW and look forward to every issue. Neil, please keep it up.

Here we are on a free BBS sponsored by the publisher and some are biting the hand that feeds us, so to speak. I have been a subscriber of both for several years and I have bought lots of the back issues from Village Press and some on eBay. I like the old ones and the new ones. I love the website and all the great(and even the not so great ones) topics. I think it is very rude to trash our hosts at Village press when they do so much to help us learn machining. It is like being invited to a friend's house for supper and then complaining about the food! Lighten up out there guys!

Maybe the registration on this site should expire every 6 months and then be re-instated only after sending Neil a compliment!

I love the welding, machining, gunsmithing, the advertising and everything about it and anybody who doesn't is a Boob, in my opinion. Thanks--Mike.

G.A. Ewen
12-17-2003, 11:14 PM
I'm with this crowd. Neil, you can count on my support. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

BFHAMR
12-17-2003, 11:16 PM
I too enjoy the magazines very much, articles that didn't interest me in the past have a way of resurfacing in my memory when a new project presents itself. This then leads to a search of the past issues to locate the article that "didn't interest me" at the time but now does.

I have a friend that years ago allowed his subscription to lapse, he is only too eager to read the mags when I bring in a pile.

I have also considered submitting articles, maybe this is a good reason to start.

Keep up the good work Neil!

capperbar
12-18-2003, 12:39 AM
Neil,
Enjoy the Holidays, work on the next deadline and pick the best articles you've got and just keep at it all. Your doing fine.

Getting a clear statement of problems as seen by your subscribers is a good thing. Getting it repeated over and over by someone is just getting abused. Seemed like a fair and courteous offer to OSO. This Board is a great part of my day after putting in a shift at the salt mine. Great people here.

Cheers. David Savage

John Stevenson
12-18-2003, 01:21 AM
At the risk of repeating myself [ damn Altzimers keeps kicking in http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif ]
I only get a few copies of the mags partly due to high cost here and late delivery because it's all uphill from NY.
I dropped ME a couple of years ago as being too specialised and only appealing to the steam and club guys.
MEW seems to be going very strong but it's all about personal interests. Last issue of MEW although full of articles didn't have anything that caught my eye. This issue was a lot better but another person could say the opposite, it depends on personal preferances.

Can anything be done about getting current issues in electronic format for the cousins?
I accept that old issues are going to be a problem because of legal issues in that you only have first North American rights and not electronic rights but surely that can be altered now so that any current material also grants both. I dare say most subscribers won't even bother about the wording.
It's become obvious from the previous posts that money and fame isn't an issue http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Any upturn in subscriptions can only be for the better, advertisers will have a greater showing, true not all advertisers will be able to take advantage. Grizzly for instance won't ship to the Uk but I run two Ahha based machines that I was first made aware of from an advert in HSM.

As an aside to this current magazine content problem let me say that I frequent about 5 lists such as this, I no longer use the internet news groups as they are way off topic all the while.
Of all the list I frequent this one is the most informed and interesting list I have come across. The fact that it's hosted by Neil and the two mags has nothing to do with it but I for one appreciate the list.
It's all down to the members of this list that make it what it is. I think we are fortunate in that Neil just lets it take it's own path. Too many groups like CAD_CAM_DRO on Yahoo are spoil by heavy handed moderation. With the easy way it's handled taking a swipe at the moderators just isn't cricket old boy.

John S.

jfsmith
12-18-2003, 01:36 AM
I think the magazines are really great, lots of information, most of the advertising actually is useful.

Most companies would not sponsor a BBS or anything like this.

My only real complaint in life is that I can't find my Feb/Mar 03 copy of ME concerning making a dividing head. I will just have to buy a back copy. Which is better than most companies offer.

Neil keep up the good work!

Jerry and Sam the shop cat

ps, what colour is Thrud cap???? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

darryl
12-18-2003, 02:14 AM
Having read and re-read all the posts pertinent to the topic in question, I would now contribute. Firstly, I have had the same feeling that something is lacking. It's quite possible that I've just gotten used to the type of content, have evolved past the newbie stage, and since I don't built the projects, don't have enough 'into it' to look forward to the next issue as much. I do still look forward to getting the next issue, though. I make no pretense here of being able to put my finger right on the problem, I'm just saying that I can see where the various viewpoints are coming from, as some of them I share, on both sides. I have felt guilty in small part about not submitting an article for consideration. I still work, get less income than I would like, which has meant I don't have a camera, and have the same reservations shared by many regarding the quality of the potential article that I could or would write. It would be nice, and appropriate at times, to be paid for the article, sure. But as some have suggested, it's worth more than money to have had your article published and read by your fellow metalworkers. If that doesn't do it for you, don't write, no big deal, that's just where you are at, you fellow human being. Those that do contribute, and for no pay, are choosing to be satisfied with what they've done, with all of it's costs. I am humbled by the unselfish and tireless contributions made by many elders. Alas, I believe it's true, we are losing that. We are of many different characters, also we are shaped by the times we live in.
Speaking of characters, those who contribute here are showing the rest of us their character, and befriending themselves to us. To see an article written by any of several regulars, would, to me, be interesting. It would represent an extension of that friendship, and the proficiency with which their article is written would be of lesser importance, as would the actual content of the article. Needless to say, each of us would value our own type of project the most, and it's obvious that it's impossible to please all in every case, or even in any case. It's quite possible that someone's article would only please him or her self. That aside, though, who would not be interested in an article by, say, Thrud. Or Weird, or --- . I would get a special kick out of seeing something by one of my forum brothers, actually more of my forum brothers, as some of you do contribute. To those who would like to send an article, but are hesitant, please get over that, ok? (I'm in the same boat with you).
Lastly, for now, some of the projects are spread over many issues, some things take only one page, maybe less. I would be just as interested, even more so, reading many little snippets of stuff from more people, than fewer things from less people. I would bet that a lot of you would feel the same, I take this from the many expressions of dissatisfaction with the continuing articles, spread over several issues. If a snippet article is fluff, well, maybe it will give a laugh, or an insight. Either way, it's entertaining, and after all, if it's not, you're going to get tired of reading the mags. There's my (hopefully not too disjointed) input, got to pee now.

wbleeker
12-18-2003, 02:39 AM
Hi Guys
I agree with the general consensus here, they are GREAT magazines but it is up to the subscribers to keep them great and help make them greater! We are after all a minority in this big world and should stick together not bitch about petty things.I am totally with John Stevenson regarding the electronic issues,in fact I suggested it two or three months ago but had no replies on the subject It doesn't seem to matter whether it is uphill or downhill from the US it still seems to take ages to get a magazine in fact I have had both arrive the same day when presumably they were printed and posted a month apart!Does anyone know if they can be sent by airmail?
Happy Christmas
Will in OZ

Joel
12-18-2003, 02:43 AM
Well said darryl.

Alan in Oz
12-18-2003, 02:57 AM
Will in Oz,
Yes HSM can be sent airmail to Oz but you had better be ready for a shock, when I was getting it, it worked out to be nearly A$20 per issue but the Oz dollar was only 58 cents then, maybe a bit better now. As previously mentioned delivery to the outer reaches of the Empire is a very hit and miss event with some of my copies never arriving, so I have reluctantly not renewed my subscription. By contrast I can buy the UK MEW off the bookshelf for A$11.50 and have a standing order with the newsagent for it.

op9
12-18-2003, 02:57 AM
Yes they can be sent quicker wbleeker, but at more cost........check the website for the extra.......too much extra for me. Bring on the Electronic issues.
Rod.

Thrud
12-18-2003, 03:18 AM
WS

I am in complete agreement - Great magazines, great books, great bbs, excellent service from Village Press.

The only complaint I have is about the cost of shipping books to Canada (Holy crap, batman!) but considering how Canada Post screws me on shipping parcels anywhere, this is no longer an issue - so now I can't even complain about that.

We loves ya Neal! (insert big sloppy kiss here - extra tongue) http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//tongue.gif



[This message has been edited by Thrud (edited 12-18-2003).]

Benjamin Borowsky
12-18-2003, 07:39 AM
I think it's ok to voice concern, as some have, about a perceived quality deficiency, if it's done in a constructive way. On the other hand, I think some of us have stepped over the line. I, for one, appreciate both the board and the light-handed moderation. Thanks Neil.

B2

jr45acp
12-18-2003, 08:08 AM
As with any publication, I find articles that are of interest and others that are not so interesting. Having said that, even reading the not so interesting articles provides me with new insights and has helped me increase my abilities. This bbs is nothing short of superlative! Through this mode, I've learned more in a shorter period of time than I would have otherwise.

Bottom line; Thanks Village Press and Neil! Keep up the good work!



------------------
John B

bspooh
12-18-2003, 10:02 AM
I unfortunately can't respond to all of this, because I havent' been a subscriber for a few years now..I used to get HSM and Projects in Metal..I absolutely loved them both..

If I can learn only one thing in a book or magazine, then for me its worth the cost..I have read technical books that are hundreds of pages long, and maybe only learn one or two ideas..thats worth it for me..I love to learn,..

So I can't voice my opinion because I have been out of the loop for some time now..But I will be back Neil...

Maybe Thrud could send an article on how to make the perfect "Meatloaf"..Now that my friends, would be an interesting article..I would just have to go and buy a cement mixer and then I'll be able to make it.. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

Bottome line is that you can't please everyone all of the time..But I do RESPECT the opinions of the few who wants improvement..Don't "scold" these people, they have a right to voice their opinions..Afterall they do want to get the most bang for their buck..

I realize that some people may think I am a "freeloader"..Yes, I am...I will contribute $$$ in buying subscriptions again someday, I just can't as of now..I will continue enjoying this BBS forever...

Neil..Great job with this BBS...and hopefully soon I can comment on the magazines...

Peace http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

brent

Stepside
12-18-2003, 10:43 AM
Since I subscribe to three of the magazines in questionand have done so for many years, I will put in my 2 cents worth.

Being totally guilty of starting to write up a project and submit and then not following through, I am aware of the ammount of work it takes.

So here is my goal--- I am in the middle of making a ratcheting conversion for my Jet 3 ton arbor press. I will remake some of the parts so I have photos of all the set-ups to go with the write-up. Are you all waiting with baited breath for this topic? No, but you will find some ideas for band machining and maybe even some design ideas.

In return you will find out that my shop is crowded and usually somewhat messy and that I might even be a "hack" as a metal worker.

So the gloves are off---What are you going to do?

ulav8r
12-18-2003, 11:28 AM
I have only subscribed for about 4 years, but I have found little of great interest in that time. Steve Acker's articles hold the most interest for me. I have read of projects in earlier issues I would be very interested in, so some time in the future I will start acquiring the projects books, but I wish they were available in paperback form to lower the cost somewhat. (If the articles can be repeated in a book, why not on CD?) I did not perceive an aspersion on Neil by OSO, just a statement of who controls the magazine content. I will not take sides, but after having been married 30 years I know 2 people can often disagree on how to do things, much less 35,000 subscribers and an editor. I agree with John, an electronic issue would be nice as it would allow wider distribution and could also accomodate more pictures of setups and operations. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

NAMPeters
12-18-2003, 01:03 PM
Now there is an idea, place supplementary pictures for an article on this web site. More info but also an incentive to get the hard copy for the words.

------------------
Neil Peters

Paul Gauthier
12-18-2003, 04:22 PM
For some odd reason I don't subscribe, I just buy them at B&N. Subscription would be cheaper of course and some day will get around to it. But I like them just as they are. I read most articles some I skim and some I just pass over.
Though I may not make the projects dipicted in the mags there is knowlege gained that can and is used in other areas.
I would like to see and article about B'port shaping heads. Anyone else???
Thanks Neil I appreciate your efforts.

------------------
Paul G.

Neil
12-18-2003, 06:05 PM
Thank you all for your support. It's much appreciated.

Everybody wants to improve... that includes us.

Charles Ping
12-18-2003, 06:55 PM
Being in the UK I rarely get to see HSM or MW but have almost a complete run of MEW's.
I reckon that the home workshop market is ready for a paid for digital version of the magazines - these are now coming available for online newspapers complete with ads and everything in a format similar to pdf.
In this fairly limited market that's geographically widespread it's solution that a publisher brave enough to sponsor a website like this should take very seriously.

Charles

Thrud
12-19-2003, 03:42 AM
For myself, I prefer hardcopy, but if I can get it free as a downloaded trade magazine I don't mind it. For magazines like ME, MEW, HSM, MW, or Live Steam these represent ideas for me to consider either as models I would like to make someday, or tools that interest me or would prove functional to me, or repository of ideas and different approaches that I may never have considered. For that I must have hard copy or I tend to lose it or erase in error (doh!). Like Brent I find even one morsel makes my day - I appreciate the work of others because I hate reinventing the wheel when there is no reason for it.

Alistair Hosie
12-19-2003, 05:09 AM
I too suport Neil top notch guy in my book very helpful at all times .Well done laddie.Alistair

JCHannum
12-19-2003, 10:14 AM
I prefer the hard copy for a number of reasons, and would not bother with electronic versions unless they were the only thing available, and maybe not even then.
One reason is the convenience of thumbing through an issue, or flipping back and forth through plans & narrative to find out where a dimension came from. I have my magazines scattered through the house, several copies in are left in certain rooms to pass otherwise idle time, if you get my drift. That is hard to do with a computer.
Printout is needed to make a set of working plans.
Another big reason for not being in favor of this or the CD version of back issues is the volatility and changeability of information stored electronically. Those CD's so treasured today will probably be as out of date and worthless 10 years from now as anything on the old floppy discs is today.
Keep up the good work Neil and the rest of staff at VP, roll with the punches , and enjoy your holidays.

John Stevenson
12-19-2003, 10:26 AM
JCH,
What you have just written is very valid if you can get the hard copy for a decent price and on time. For us in the colonies this just isn't possible. Bear in mind that we are not buying this magazine at the moment. If it went on electronic sale for out of country address then any sales would be an extra for Village press. Some may even be interested to take a split subscription out, say at the moment it's $8.00 per issue then for say $12 you get the immediate electronic version with the hard copy to follow later.
For anyone not wanting to take advantage of thsi you can always print your copy out.
Plus side of this is you get to take extra sheets into the workshop instead of crapping up your decent copy.
As I say it's a win, win situation for VP as at the moment we are not subscribing.

Either way VP needs to address this electronic rights issue now otherwise in the future current articles are going to be lost like the older ones.
Surely just a reword will do granting first North American rights and electronic rights before it reverts back. They are already reserving the book right so I can't see a lot of difference.

John S.

happy02
12-19-2003, 10:32 AM
I have enjoyed both HSM and MW for some years now and I can't say I've noticed any drop in quality. I do miss many of the past contributors like Frank McLean, D.E.Johnson,Phil Dulcos and many others. Rudy K. is always appreciated!!
I've made feeble attempts to get togather a few articles but I always seem to get side tracked. I appreciate anyone that actually does it! It's not particularly easy to get an article togather especially when your mind wanders as much as mine does. But who knows mebby I'll try again and succeed...
Special thanks to the management and staff of Village Press. Marry Christmas To All
Joe

Thrud
12-20-2003, 02:40 AM
John
ME costs me $8.75 and MEW is $12.00 (Canadian) here in Edmonton and about two months behind, 2 years of HSM and MW is about $200 (Canadian) and lags a month because Canada post is run by retards. I buy Live Steam, ME, and MEW from the same vender as they have always given me great service on these magazines even if high priced.

Evan
12-20-2003, 11:49 AM
I've held my tounge on this, but no longer.

I have written magazine articles as I have mentioned before. It is a labour of love, not a way to make a living. Any compensation is a token of appreciation by the publisher (unless you are a celebrity). To do a good article with drawings, plans, text, proofing etc. takes many hours. At the measly pay per word or page that most magazines offer you aren't going to feed the cat, much less the kids. That's not the point. I received an extra $40 for an article making the cover on a magazine once. Nice bonus, but that isn't why I wrote the article. I write to hopefully share what I believe to be useful knowledge to others.

I'm like my dad, I like to teach. I hope that I have something to offer to others that will be useful. That is the main motivation for writing a technical article.

If you don't have good writing skills try it anyway. If what you have to share is good and worthwhile, a good editor will do his job, knuckle down, and polish up the work so it is presentable. And, guess what, you, the writer, will get all the credit. The job of editor is thankless and invisible. Yet, it is the editor that makes it all work. The hand of the editor should never be visible (barring the very occasional sotto voce comment) yet without it there would be no publication.

wierdscience
12-20-2003, 08:53 PM
Thats about it Evan,theres not much fame to be had,but I would like to show my sister in law that I don't just work on lawnmowers http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

I asked Neil for a copy of the requirements for submiting an article,I pretty well understand it,I can handle the writing,photos and drawings,but you know what the two hardest things are?Deciding which project to do one on and not knowing whats been done before.I have a simple but very useful arbor I came up with the other day,photos drawings and all wouldn't add up to a whole page,but do I want to go to the trouble of writing it up only to find out if its been done before?I'm not sure if it has or hasn't,maybe I'll try to search the achieves and see other than that I don't know what else to do but try.

[This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 12-20-2003).]

G.A. Ewen
12-20-2003, 10:24 PM
wierd,
I wouldn't worry to much about repeating something already done. Ask ten machinist's to make an arbor and you will get ten different ways of doing it. New subscribers won't know that it's been done before and a lot of old hands will be interested in your unique design.
Go for it. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif

chip's
12-21-2003, 05:50 PM
I agree with the above. I love both magazines. I look at most of the projects. some I like some I don't. Neil and his group do the best they can. Everyone can't be totally happy all the time. For the most part, I think the content has something for everyone. Thanks to Neil and his group for good magazines!

wbleeker
12-23-2003, 03:09 AM
On the subject of the electronic issue as John has said it would be a win win situation for vp, I as well would like a hard copy as well as an electronic one in a reasonable time frame,I think the US Postal service needs a kick in the butt three months to Australia or England is pretty pathetic and they are not even consistent.I have just read ME for 12-26 December and have had it for a week!Maybe Neil there is a slightly dearer postage rate that gets the mags where they are supposed to go in a more reasonable time frame? Even a month wouldn't be too bad.
Have a very Happy Christmas Everyone,hope there is lot of tools under the tree!
Will in OZ

kc5ezc
12-25-2003, 12:36 AM
For a hard copy and electronic copy you might consider 'Home Power'.
John Burchett