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View Full Version : OT: They finally got him!



pgmrdan
12-14-2003, 09:01 AM
.

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 03-19-2004).]

Evan
12-14-2003, 09:02 AM
I should turn on the news?

pgmrdan
12-14-2003, 09:03 AM
.

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 03-19-2004).]

Benjamin Borowsky
12-14-2003, 09:39 AM
hallelujah!

yf
12-14-2003, 09:40 AM
Hopefully salami bin lading is next!

Evan
12-14-2003, 09:46 AM
What a pathetic person. A lot like Hitler. We will see what what transpires. Apparently he is a coward to the end, unlike his sons.

wierdscience
12-14-2003, 10:44 AM
Thank God!!!! And Thank the troops!!!!

ibewgypsie
12-14-2003, 10:57 AM
Found in a hole like a rat! Where was his pride? Wasn't he supposed to be a Martr?

Shucks. Now we got to pay to execute him?

Oso
12-14-2003, 11:18 AM
If you are referring to Saddam, which one did they "get"?

There are 5.

No's 1 thru 4 are probably still out there.

wierdscience
12-14-2003, 12:03 PM
DNA says we got the one and only Saddam,the others probibly have questions to answer this morning.

As for execution,I think we're gonna let the people do that,besides the're more creative than we http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Oso
12-14-2003, 12:09 PM
Dna, eh, that'll work. I checked out the Yahoos, seems to be true.

Ozarks Hermit
12-14-2003, 02:23 PM
Ace in the Hole

Saddam: The Ace of Spades

Caught, hiding in a hole, like a rat


Ken

bikenut
12-14-2003, 03:00 PM
HURRAY!!! for our side, my Thanks to everbody involved.

jfsmith
12-14-2003, 03:01 PM
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Caught, hiding in a hole, like a rat
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

No Like The Rat He Is!!!!!

debequem
12-14-2003, 03:16 PM
Breaking News:

Al Gore takes credit for Sadom's Capture...

details at eleven. Now for a word from our sponsors...

Evan
12-14-2003, 03:20 PM
They are lying through their teeth. DNA takes at least two days to check, not counting travel time to a suitable facility. To "run" an electrophoresis gel plate takes 48 hours not counting prep time. Think. How many times have you heard on the news that something or other will have to wait for the results of DNA testing? They are bull****ting us. They may well have him but it hasn't been confirmed by DNA testing yet.

BTW, two days is only if they already have DNA test of family to compare with, which I imagine they do. Two days would be really cutting it short and any good lab tech would want longer. Don't believe everything you hear.



[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 12-14-2003).]

Pete Michaud
12-14-2003, 08:47 PM
Perhaps there is some quick DNA finding which is merely 99.9999% certain; in combination with other evidence, they'd have a sure thing.

Evan
12-14-2003, 08:49 PM
No, there isn't. To be sure, I will ask the doctor that we are having dinner with tonight. I am sure I am right though.

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 12-14-2003).]

Shed Machinist
12-14-2003, 09:09 PM
In this case, I may easily be wrong, but I don't think they would care to not take the proper precautions and end up publishing false information to make the U.S. look bad.

Evan
12-14-2003, 09:15 PM
The naivete of youth, not a failing, just a lack of experience. Welcome to the world of politics.

CCWKen
12-14-2003, 10:05 PM
And to think, all it took was sending a couple of TEXANS to find him. Eeee-Ha! Nice going 4th Infantry!

Oso
12-14-2003, 10:41 PM
Evan, most of the delay is lab waiting time to get to it, as far as crime scene stuff.

The more you start with, the less time it takes to do. With Mr S right there on hand, they can chip off a chunk if they want. No micro bloodspot on the shirt BS.

I bet they have had an outfit over there for quite a while waiting for this sort of thing. And they do have helicopters that will move things around.....

PSD KEN
12-14-2003, 10:55 PM
Now to hasten him down the road to hell, joining his sons, nice the family will be together for the holidays.

charlie coghill
12-15-2003, 12:29 AM
I received a nice birthday present. Thank you 4th Infantry! Great job.
Charlie

BillH
12-15-2003, 12:46 AM
They had him in custody for a short time before they told us, they only told us when they were absolutely sure it was him.
TIs a great Xmas present.
I allways thought it would be nicer if they killed him, but I change my mind, I like seeing him in that condition, as he really is, a true coward, and a rat. IF they use islamic law on him, there should be a nice public execution. They will do to him, what happened to Mussolini.

pgmrdan
12-15-2003, 10:13 AM
.

[This message has been edited by pgmrdan (edited 03-08-2004).]

Greg Parent
12-15-2003, 10:58 AM
Tha best quote so far...
"Justice gave itself an early Christmas present"
--Rex Murphy--CBC mouthpiece

Evan
12-15-2003, 12:31 PM
Oso,

Even though they have all the DNA they need it still takes a fixed amount of time to run the plate. I asked my doctor friend yesterday about this and she says that the best they could do in advance is to make a monoclonal antibody test, same as a pregnancy test, that would verify if he was from the same genetic line. Not conclusive but it would help. However, if he had a double who was in any way related then it would likely show a positive. Conclusive proof using DNA takes at least 48 hours.

DR
12-15-2003, 06:09 PM
One more down......now a white house full of equally dangerous morons to go.

robert
12-15-2003, 07:36 PM
You got that right DR. --RG

chkz
12-15-2003, 07:46 PM
if they're lookin' for volunteers to drop the hammer on that S.O.B........look no further !!!!!!!

Well done American Forces !!!


Chris

Thrud
12-16-2003, 02:54 AM
Aw, hell. I am kinda sad they caught the bastard. I was hoping I would see him walking done the street so I could run him over myself and collect the $25,000,000 tax free US reward. Damn Saddams greedy relatives, damn them all to hell.

Now I have to hope I run over salami ben pastrami, or whatever his name is for the $50 mil reward... http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//tongue.gif

Evan
12-16-2003, 03:01 AM
Saw on the news tonight that the troops were about three seconds from dropping a grenade down the hole when he squirmed out enough to show his hands. Damn.

[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 12-16-2003).]

SJorgensen
12-16-2003, 04:03 PM
You know they never did release the DNA tests from Usay and Quday. That and several other factors caused a lot of people to wonder about the veracity of it. It really is hard to trust a government after you've been deceived a few times. I've supported the war against Iraq many times here. I now know that my support was based on several untrue statements put forth by the Bush administration. Still, Saddam was a bad guy. I'm not sure the end justifies the means. A lot of people were in a rush to war based on bad information (I was among them) now a lot of our young and devoted are dead and so are a lot of innocent but unfortunately patriotic Iraqis too.

Now getting Bin Laden should be back at the top of our priorities.

Thanks guys,

Spence

[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 12-17-2003).]

wierdscience
12-16-2003, 09:11 PM
Bin Ladin shortly,Uday and Dipstick yes we did release dna and yes it was them,WND'S yes Mr.Kay had to jump up and down and yell it from the roof top and never got any coverage from the biased media but he did infact find chemical weapons and said "we have only scratched the surface because after all they(Iraqi's)didn't label anything".He also said that there are something like 54 weapons dumps 25sq kilometers or more in size and we have only searched two.

I still say when we can safely reduce our troop numbers in Iraq we should move on to Syria or Suadi Arabia.

DR
12-16-2003, 09:18 PM
"I still say when we can safely reduce our troop numbers in Iraq we should move on to Syria or Suadi Arabia. "

Who's we Kimo Sabe? Count me out.

jfsmith
12-17-2003, 02:33 PM
Here is a perverse idea, send Micahel Jackson to Baghdad as a test case to see if the Iraqi federal court system really works.

Jerry

Thrud
12-18-2003, 04:43 AM
Jerry
I'll second that!

wierdscience
12-18-2003, 10:33 AM
One other thing has become clear as well,Madilin Albright should in the future leave her crack pipe at home.

SJorgensen
12-20-2003, 12:30 AM
Hi Weird,

Could you help me find some reference to any DNA results on Usay and Qusay? Any reference prior to the capture of Saddam or after. Also the evidence of WMD that you mentioned, I'd like to look into it further. There were also supposed to be lots of drones but you don't see any pictures of them. You also don't see results in the form of massive construction projects from all the hundreds of billions of American taxpayer dollars being handed over mostly to the people who contributed to the Bush campaign and the company that vice president Cheney used to run. I need to see some convincing evidence. Don't believe everything Rush Limbaugh says. Lets have some independent references. I really have tried to find some.

Spence

wierdscience
12-20-2003, 01:41 AM
Spence I'll have to look through a few archieves to find the stuff on Uday and dipstick its been a while on that one.

The Haliburton story was just on the Mcneil news hour this afternoon.Its an empty shell of a conspiracy since Haliburton has been doing military contract work overseas since WWII.
Kellog,Brown and Root are the subsidiary of Haliburton that handles the military contracts,everything from washing clothes to painting houses.41% of the logistics costs for the war where handled by KBR,but those contracts where cut in 1992 under a joint service logistics and training bulk award,they select one primary contractor thats approved as the first choice based on the companies ability to perform,they (the bulk award)cover base maintainance both foriegn and domestic as well as heavy construction,but then there is also the matter of performance,you and I could never get the award for one of these massive contracts simple because we could not deliver on time essintially we don't have the reasources to take it on.

Now on to the contracts in Iraq,the first contracts were let for Iraq before the war started for the repair,rebuild and upgrade of Iraq's oil production and refining capability.The second contract was an emergency contract becuase if you remember just a few days before and a few days into the war it was feared that the oilfields would be torched and they would be needed to put the fires out.BTW Haliburton specializes in oil field and production capacity not infrastructure,they don't build roads,dams bridges etc,although they will in turn let subcontracts for those services as well.

As for the billions of dollars spent(18 total)43% was just in transport to the theater shipping,logistics etc,but remember that contract was issued back in 1992.So what we have left then is roughly 10.5-11 billion where did it go?Ever work in the oilfield?I have a well head or "Christmas tree" back when I did it cost in upwards of $500,000 now consider that in Iraqs fields there are over 1900 of these heads with an estimated 38% in disrepair either destroyed or ruined from neglect it gets expensive really quick,you also have to remember most of the oil produced in Iraq in the last 20 years was from older wells,the newer ones were either never completed or capped,that coupled with the fact that Saddam ran the oil industry in the ground there simply is nothing left to fix.

Now the situation on the ground in Iraq for the contractors is bleak,I was approched to go myself and ten years ago when I was younger and more foolish I would have went,but not now,working in a bullet proof vest or flack jacket in the sand where booby traps abound even for good money is not my cup of tea.Plus the idea of total desolation(most of the fields are in the middle of nowhere)the added complication of having to bring everything (and I mean everything)in from Jordan or Suadi is rough as well,just think no cranes,no welders,no compressors,no tools and the list goes on.Rough necks here make on average $30.00 an hour and up,go over there and expect to triple that.

The other "scandal" was over the deleivered cost of gasoline which is nearly double,but "Howie" neglects to tell us about the fact that there are no refining capabilities working in Iraq,so the cost is double because of transporting gasoline instead of crude.Oh and they also mentioned that since we took over and banned the car tax there over 250,000 cars have made it into Iraq since the fall of Bagdad.As we speak they have a gas shortage and lines at the pump.

An expert on KBR and Haliburton also said on the same show that Haliburton's stock holders are looking to dump KBR because their profit making is "marginal at best"according to him some jobs break even and some lose money,not good for an investor.

Also this coming year the bulk contracts come up for renewal and resubmital KBR has already backed out for the upcoming award vetting.

Oh,I don't always listen to Rush,but it does sometimes pay off,like when he reported this week a story in the Boston Globe that our boy "Howie" not only took money from Enron,but as governor of Vermont he also gave many consessions to Enron proving him to be yet another liar in a field of many.

wierdscience
12-20-2003, 02:03 AM
WRONG POST

[This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 12-20-2003).]

wierdscience
12-20-2003, 02:24 AM
This might help some of the confusion

http://www.freepressed.com/uday.htm

Rich Carlstedt
12-20-2003, 03:05 AM
I don't understand some people.
They say "I support the troops...But"
But my Butt !

We keep hearing weapons of mass destruction were not found. So what? Over 3,000 Americans are in their graves because of terrorism, not from WMD.
We are at war with terrorists!

You want proof Iraq had terrorist thoughts? Read the April 14 CNN report, “Marines in Baghdad find 310 leather vests, each with 20 pounds of C-4 explosives and ball bearings.”

Here is the USA Today link in case you can't find it:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-04-12-suicide-vests_x.htm

Are they innocent because we didn’t find WMD?

If it looks like a rat, walks like rat, and smells like a rat: It’s a rat.

Be as politically correct as you want, but don’t threaten my security because you need to see the rat label.

As the President said
" You are either with us, or against us "

There is NO middle ground with a Terrorist

Evan
12-20-2003, 03:16 AM
Rich,

If only it were that simple. It's never that black and white. Just like in 'nam you can never be sure who the enemy is. If he looks like a terrorist and lives where the terrorists live does that mean he is a terrorist? My sales agent for computer supplies is most definitely not a terrorist. But considering his name, last name Islam, I don't think it advisable he travel to the US any time soon.

wierdscience
12-20-2003, 10:52 AM
But remember Evan,just like you said its not that simple.According to U.S. and Canadian along with French and British passport agencies quite a few of the 9-11 hijackers looked like normal travlers,some of their neighbors while they lived here even said they seemed very nice,but we know the rest of the story now.

I'm not saying that everyone who is Muslim or of middle easter decent is a terrorist,but the actions of their countrymen have raised an eyebrow or two.

What we are doing in Iraq is working,I don't thing that Liybia would be coming around with out the persausion now being exerted in the region.

Evan
12-20-2003, 11:06 AM
Remember Timothy McVeigh? Fine upstanding WASP American? Looks just like a normal American guy. Profiling doesn't work, period. The looks like, walks like crap is crap, period.

The old saying is "Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer". That is where American intelligence fell on it's face. They failed to keep in touch with the dirty side. They handicapped the agents, not permitting them to act like the people they were supposed to deal with. Kinda hard to fit in.

As for Muhammar El Kahdafi, he was dealt with very effectively by blowing away his sons. He has kept his head down ever since.

SJorgensen
12-20-2003, 06:24 PM
Hi Weird,

Sorry about that Rush Limbaugh comment. I usually try to keep my comments on the subject and not use slander in a debate and I appreciate that you didn't. I read that link on the Usay and Quday identification and now I am even more confused. Still no DNA results though. Even the medical records that were referred to as identification were not released to the press for independent review. I don't know why they would obfuscate the situation. As far as the Halliburton information you gave, I can agree with you on some points. But the argument that they are the only company in this or any other country that can handle the tasks and so we must give them "no bid" contracts doesn't sit well with me. Also I think there was an initial $80 billion spent and then the recent $86 billion of which $18 was for reconstruction. Remember when Rumsfeld said that the cost of reconstruction would come from Iraq's oil revenue? It reminds me of some housing projects in Florida that we spend $100's of millions on, only they never really got built. There is some war profiteering going on now through the Bush administration. The Bush family is not new to the concept. George W's grandfather Prescott was making millions selling war materiel to the Nazis before and during WWII until the US government seized the companies.
Rich,
I read the story you posted. It was interesting. The facts get sloshed around a bit until people believe things that might not be true. I'll try to be specific although I agree with you that there are people willing to do suicide attacks, and that someone made vests for this purpose. But was it for terrorism or was it to defend their homeland in an asymmetrical war? There is no indication those vests were intended for use in the USA or for terrorism.

You said, "Marines in Baghdad find 310 leather vests, each with 20 pounds of C-4 explosives and ball bearings."

The story actually said that of the 310 vests, 160 had ball bearings and 60 vests were made of leather.

It's just a little mistake. But it is like saying that there were WMD that could be used against us within 30 minutes. Or that Iraq was trying to buy "Yellow Cake" uranium from Nigeria. Or that Iraq bought aluminum tubes for use in a nuclear program. Or that Iraq was responsible for the World Trade tower attack and that it had ties to Acadia.

Don't think that people who seek the truth are unpatriotic. It is the cost of freedom. It is harder to do than believing everything you are told. Statements like "You are either with us, or against us." and "Bring em' on." Sound pretty tough but don't help the world situation. Saying we are "on a crusade" in Iraq is not a wise statement. Getting the help of the Israelis for their expertise in urban warfare in the Middle East isn't a wise plan. Your average Iraqi is not a terrorist, but he can become one under Bush's leadership.
The president keeping as a secret, the Saudi's involvement in 9/11 isn't right. The president thwarting the 9/11 investigation isn't right. Enron advising Cheney on Energy policy and keeping it secret isn't right. Outing a CIA agent as revenge is a federal offense but someone in the Bush administration did this. I could go on and on but this isn't the proper forum.

Spence

Rich Carlstedt
12-20-2003, 06:50 PM
Ya know Spence, you continue to talk about stuff that is pure suposition, and when I show the reference on the news, you pick it apart as to the total numbr of "Vests" with/without ball bearings and then ACTUALLY think that the vests were not for use against Americans...Sorry, but your predudice against reasoning, and the rest of what Americans believe is incredible !

You probably debate whether the airplanes that hit the twin Towers had full gas tanks or not.....and completely miss the point.

We are at War..
Go visit Manhatten and talk to a Fireman if you don't believe me

Rich Carlstedt
12-20-2003, 06:54 PM
And by the way
The post I quoted
“Marines in Baghdad find 310 leather vests, each with 20 pounds of C-4 explosives and ball bearings.”
Was the actual Headline by CNN News....not something from another source

I did not make it up !

wierdscience
12-20-2003, 08:40 PM
Spence we have already been through the war profitiering thing months ago,every company in the U.S. that is old enough to be envolved in the war has done it there are many examples of this.

As for Haliburton the point I was making was the they are the approved contractor not the only one,the approval procedure is very lengthy to do work for the government you have to be checked out stem to stern,things like handicapped restrooms,OSHA,IRS,EOE that sort of thing has to be taken care of and all the paper filed before you can even be considered.As for foriegn companies doing the work thats fine so long as they are allies,even then when it envolves my tax money I want American companies to get first chance not France!

That brings us to the latest hubbub about the coalition only contracts,why should France be given any contracts when they didn't contribute any troops or equipment to the war?Let them go after the non-coalition contracts.

On Uday and dipstick they did match dental records 100% on I think it was Uday and 90% on his brother,but from the damage he was missing teeth,that coupled with the other evidence and eye-witness identification from senior Iraqi officials pretty much nails it,who knows they may have decided to save the dna test money.

The Kay report was the under reported story of the year,Like he said the Iraqi military didn't label anything when they loaded the gem and chemical agents everything is od green so compound that with the size and number of ammo dumps and you got one complex mess that will take a long time to sort out.But this is still a side issue the simple fact is that before the war right up to the last day everyone including the French knew and admitted that Saddam had WMD'S,we knew that after the first Gulf war,we knew it throughout the ten years up till this one and the inspectors knew it and the U.N. knew it and all these other people knew about it,yet still there are some people who believe that this is all a hoax,but then again thats the same group that believes that we never went to the moon,or put sattelites in space,or even that Chris Columbus proved the earth was round!

Back to Haliburton,the Kellogg Brown and Root div. was incedently owned lock,stock,and barrel by Lyndon and Lady bird Johnson up until recently,if you want a good conspiracy look no further,remember the space program and who got the ball rolling on that one?Did you know that of the three Nasa facilities in my area(Stennis,Michoud and Slidell)all three were built on and leased from Lyndon Johnson's old lady and that the majority of the construction and equipment fabrication for Nasa was through Brown and Root a company who at the time was wholy owned by Lady bird Johnson.In addition they also were awarded the contract to dredge Hypong Harbor in Vietnam,but make any mention of this too the Democrats and all of the sudden they change their tune.

But after all of this here is the rub with Dick Chenny and Haliburton,when he was nominated to run for VP he had to divest himself from his position and sell off his stock in the company which he did,but he still got bad press over it,also it is fact that the contract in question was already in existance when he took office,but he still got bad press,also if anyone expects a contractor to give up its contracts just because their former CFO/CEO is now the VP there just plain crazy,but even if they did Dick Chenny would still get bad press and do you know why?Because the mainstream media and the democratic party knows that at least 25% of the American people are gullable enough to believe anything they say and further more even more know absolutly nothing about coperate finace,contract vetting,or for that matter anything other than who's on American Idol this season!

Now add to that the fact that considering all the people on welfare,all the city,county,state and federal employees,and 40%of the union workers,they make up 41% of the voting population this my good man is the reason the Democratic party even exists in the first place,because when it comes down to issues they lose hands down everytime becuase 90% of their constituants are in it for their pocket books and don't care about the issues or the conseqences of the bogus idioligy the left supports.Perfect example,a friend of mine is a typical 22 year old female college student,she brought up the subject of same sex marrage the otherday and went on and on about how it should be legal and so on,she never took into account the side effects it would mean to society as a whole,so I argued with her and finally asked her okay what about plural marrage,she said whats that?I told her and she said oh no thats illegal and imoral so I asked her why should it be?She didn't have an answer,pc university and the media have them brainwashed thats all there is to it,I fear for us all.

Evan
12-21-2003, 03:38 AM
If any of you believe what CNN has to say then I have a bridge to sell you. FOB. Collect.

SJorgensen
12-21-2003, 05:05 AM
War profiteering is a subject that needs to be defined a little more. I think you are using the term a little differently than I would. I have no objection to any American company making a profit from selling the best hardware made anywhere in the world. The problem comes from when those people who decide my nation should go to war, and those same people enrichen themselves and create estates of unfathomable wealth through war profiteering. This isn't American Capitalism and it needs to be seen for what it is.
It should be a capital offense.

Spence

[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 12-21-2003).]

wierdscience
12-21-2003, 03:24 PM
Spence,your trying to see something that isn't there.If profitering is going on then let all the members of congress disclose their investments,but they won't because they all own stock in Haliburton and Enron and Brown&Root.Every company has a right to make a profit and every company has to report profit and loss,the question then is how come the media and for that matter the Democratic canidates can't present any hard(as in printed words on paper)evidence that profitering is taking place? Why because none exists!But if you repeat a lie long enough and American Idol is out of season gullable people will listen,people become violent over tv shows like Survivor which is noting more than hoaky non-sense no different from the old Quiz Show unfortunately these people are allowed to vote.

Now coupled with the fact that these same people say and do nothing when we have a traitor in the white house like Clintoon it makes for a very sad joke.

As far as war profitering nobody complains when somebody like Northrup,or Lockheed-Martin,or General Dynamics does the exact same thing mainly becuase congressmen on both sides of the isle are making money and gaining influence because all those jobs are in their districts,the thing that pisses me off the most about some of the crap spewing from Dascle and Gephart's mouth is pure hypocracy because whether or not we go to war they make money.

So lets elect another democrat and next time there is a terrorist attack we can go back to bombing asprin plants and doing nothing when they murder our people in uniform(Remember the Cole?).

In case you haven't geussed by now I support a policy of not f----- around and waiting on the Useless Nations all the while a tin cup dictator thumbs his nose at the rest of the world.

Inspectors and sanctions don't work,they never have and they never will so long as nobody backs it up.If we would have adopted the policy of insectors being turned away from a gate and 20 minutes later a cruise missle took it out we would not be having this discusion today,unfortunately at the time the white house lacked the balls to do what needed to be done just as in the days of Carter.

I hope people make it easy on Bush and nominate Dean because he'll be picked apart in short order and maybe final get the phsyciatric help he truly needs,he could probibly get John Heinckly's old bed http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Oh,I do also hope that somebody asks Wesley Clarke about his dealings in Bosnia and Waco.And for his sake he had better pick someone else for VP other than Hillary,because if he does he'll be dead within a year,hillary wants to be pres. real bad and she'll do anything to get it,just ask Vince Foster.


Evan, no I don't even get CNN let alone believe anything they say because Ted Turner is a kook! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 12-21-2003).]

SJorgensen
12-22-2003, 12:40 AM
Hi Weird,
Again you haven't attacked me personally, so I'm not sure you are really a Republican. There may be hope for you yet. Still you have not discussed the original argument which was whether or not the US government released DNA proof that Usay and Quday were dead. I'm still not sure about that and your link cast even more doubt.

You say that I try to see something that isn't there in regard to War Profiteering and then you argue that it is so common that everyone does it so it must be OK. In my opinion producers (Northrup, Lockheed-Martin etc.) are not "war profiteers". Politicians who earn money by these deals are "war profiteers".
You say you like an agressive approach to foreign policy. You say you wouldn't wait around waiting on "useless nations" while "tin cup" dictators thumb their nose at the world. I think you need to travel. I would enjoy seeing your opinion change as you get a wider perspective of the world. You might find that the new policies (Bush) of preemtive attack, coupled with false premises for that attack, and also lies and deception, it really creates a threat that now the world now must deal with. America is much more at risk because of Bush than ever before. He has been very close to the Bin Laden family for decades and there is a lot of secrets related to the attack that are still being kept secret.
You think Bush is better than Dr. Dean? Ha!
You think Bush is better that General Clark! Ha!

One last thing. You mentioned the Cole and also the bombing of asprin plants. The Cole attack was by Alcada and the asprin plant attack was another CIA mistake. I think Iraq is a false target for Alcada. It is a false target for Sadia Arabia. These are the true enemies we should be focusing on.

When you call President Bill Clinton a traitor, I wonder of your sanity. If you said the same of G W Bush I wouldn't question it. You would be right.

Spence

wierdscience
12-23-2003, 09:17 AM
Spence,the attack on the Cole was Alqueda your right on that one,but why should that make any difference?

The bombing on the asprin plant and the DESERTED terrorist camps was authorised by Clinton on THE VERY DAY OF HIS IMPEACHMENT VOTE IN THE SENATE!Talk about wag the dog!

Uday and Qusa nobody sane doubts that they are dead,as since these guys have a habit of releasing a new video or tape everytime we kill them since there hasn't been one in 6 months that also helps the case that there dead.And if your so curious why don't you ask the State dept. your self?

As for the Usless Nations comment I made I should have been more clear,I was refering to the United Nations.When people raise questions about the $87bil they never question or ever realise that we spend $15bil every year for an organization that sits back and does nothing everytime there is a terrorist attack,not to mention vote against us and throw up road blocks at every turn.

Wesly Clark was removed from his post by his superiors,he didn't retire,in a military where anybody that wears brass on their collar seldom ever gets in dutch for anything for him to be removed says alot.It is in the news that he was fast friends with the general who ordered the mass murders and his involvement in Waco(an illegal violation of pose comatadas) is well documented,this alone can not be forgiven.

You also always question my sources,but do you ever question yours?Lots of people are lead down a primrose path only to find a dead end don't be one of them.

SJorgensen
12-24-2003, 10:59 PM
Hi Weird,
I know these are very complex issues. I have already read many things in regard to the issues you raised. I don't claim to know all the facts, and I am willing to delve into it when I have the time. Lately everything I find out about Bush and his plans just make me mad. He wants to do away with overtime pay. He wants to allow more mercury pollution from power plants. He wants to reclassify a huge amount of wetlands so they can be removed from protected status. He wants to imprison Americans without due process under the guise of presidential authority. He tries to raise presidential authority to the power of a King or dictator with a dungeon. I am happy that the courts of the United States have started exerting some authority in the last week on several issues. Separation of powers; it is a miraculous concept of checks and balances that makes the USA’s system of government one of the best in the world (I think the best.)
Right now I’m reading up on how Rumsfeld met with Saddam Hussein right after the gassing of the Kurds to tell him we didn’t care about that as long as he did what we want against Iran. Bectel also was working on big contracts and didn’t care either. These same players are familiar. The national security archive is a good resource. Nsarchive.org is great.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/handshake200.jpg
I will re-examine the issues you raised. I’m not stuck with my point of view. It has come a long way from my initial support of George W. Bush. It will be real hard to convince me he is not terrible for America and bad for the world.

I want to know if you read the site that you posted about the Uday and Qusay topic. It was even more "disinformative" than I thought. Did you find that the DNA results have been released? I don't know what to think about this. I can't say that the issue was proved like you did. I hope they are dead from what I know of them.

Spence

[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 12-24-2003).]

Evan
12-24-2003, 11:01 PM
Spence,

Have a look here:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/

SJorgensen
12-25-2003, 12:39 AM
Hi Weird,
Just to get to brass tacks.
You wrote "Spence,the attack on the Cole was Alqueda your right on that one,but why should that make any difference?"

Well my point was that Iraq had nothing to do with that asparin plant and that the CIA again had bad information. They have failed the President time and time again. George Bush senior and lots of "skull and bones" members were there at the beginning of the CIA. The Bay of Pigs was their baby.

"The bombing on the asprin plant and the DESERTED terrorist camps was authorised by Clinton on THE VERY DAY OF HIS IMPEACHMENT VOTE IN THE SENATE!Talk about wag the dog!"

I don't understand your point. Again the attack was authorized based on information from the CIA (Bush Sr.'s CIA.) Should a president stop making decisions because partisen politics takes a personal relationship issue that has nothing to do with anything and they attempt to impeach the president? It was pathetic. Lets look into federal offenses of the Bush administration. Leaking CIA agent identities is one item. Bribery on the house of representative's floor during a vote is another. Where's Ashcroft?

"Uday and Qusa nobody sane doubts that they are dead,as since these guys have a habit of releasing a new video or tape everytime we kill them since there hasn't been one in 6 months that also helps the case that there dead.And if your so curious why don't you ask the State dept. your self?"

My question isn't about whether they are dead because I can't know that from here. You said the DNA results proved they were, and I said that no results have been released to the public yea or nea. I've looked as far as the State dept. Maybe a freedom of information act inquiry would help.

"As for the Usless Nations comment I made I should have been more clear,I was refering to the United Nations.When people raise questions about the $87bil they never question or ever realise that we spend $15bil every year for an organization that sits back and does nothing everytime there is a terrorist attack,not to mention vote against us and throw up road blocks at every turn."

$87 billion is just a portion of the money. Hang on to your wallet.

"Wesly Clark was removed from his post by his superiors,he didn't retire,in a military where anybody that wears brass on their collar seldom ever gets in dutch for anything for him to be removed says alot.It is in the news that he was fast friends with the general who ordered the mass murders and his involvement in Waco(an illegal violation of pose comatadas) is well documented,this alone can not be forgiven."

Wesly Clark isn't the first General to run up against the higher ups. McArthur, Patton and lots of others did. Clark wanted his men to prevent the capture of an airfield. I'm not sure he was wrong. The accusation and punishment don't prove the guilt. I've looked for Clark connections in Waco but I don't find anything where he caused, or was in a position to cause or authorize anything.
Janet Reno needs to have her feet held to the fire on that one.

"You also always question my sources,but do you ever question yours?Lots of people are lead down a primrose path only to find a dead end don't be one of them."

Yes I do try to. If I get some fact wrong I want it clarified. News is like mush but once you get down to facts there will be a lot less debate.

wierdscience
12-25-2003, 11:14 AM
Wesley Clark was fast friends with the Bosnin general who ordered the ethnic cleansing,he was removed from command,Patton and Mcarthur were not.He also had direct control over the military equipment used at Waco,equipment he could have refused to provide and had every authority under the constitution to do so,but he didn't he was all to willing to practice on civilians.

The attacks that Clinton luanched were both timed to conicide with his impeachmentvotes in the house and senate the entire world knows this,he is and was an imbarrasment.

This will be my last post on this topic because it is a waste of time talking to you,if you want to believe the hoaky left wing nonsense thats your right,but mark my words none of the democrats have any leadership skill whatsoever all they can do is react and complain,ask them a question and see what you get.

SJorgensen
12-25-2003, 04:32 PM
I'll read what I can about Clark. I agree with you on Waco. I also think there was a cover up on the use of incendiary and I think mussle flash was proven where the government was denying it. Still I'll drop this thread. I have more faith in the intelligence of Dean and Clark than you do. I also believe they will be the best leaders any country could have.
Nuff said.

Spence