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Edwin Dirnbeck
02-28-2011, 09:19 PM
Over the years I have purchased and used many live centers,I have never seen one that will eject from the tailstock.I allways have had to make a screw on projection or if there wasnt a tapped hole in the end I have tig welded somthing on so that it would eject. I was wondering what other have done or am I missing something.

dockrat
02-28-2011, 09:27 PM
My simple remedy for that problem...a plastic fallers wedge with a slot cut in it. One light pop with a hammer and out comes the center.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/Dockrat1/IMGP1265Medium.jpg

Black_Moons
02-28-2011, 09:41 PM
my live center ejects at about 0.5" remaining of the tailstock.. *shrugs*
the drill chuck.. INCLUDED with my lathe, on the otherhand, had to have the tang ground down to even FIT into the tailstock properly, And ejected at like 1".. So I choped it down to eject at exactly 0 :)

fciron
02-28-2011, 09:59 PM
Dockrat, I think it's your lathe.

Both my south bends will kick out a center right at the '0' mark on the ram. They eject a typical #2 morse taper drill chuck at about the 1/4" mark. I've noticed that some suppliers, (Little Machine Shop for one) offer a 'short' #2 morse taper for use in lathes, and I think that is what your live centers have (no tang).

It's my understanding that the tang on a morse taper is merely a driving surface for ejecting the tool, not an anti-rotation device. (That's the job of the taper.) So, on your tailstock, which does not allow access for a wedge, there is no need for the tang or the extra length.

I do have a couple tools that don't eject as soon as I'd like. One had a tapped hole on the end already, and I tapped the other. A couple of 10-24 round head screws and some little brass spacers and now everything ejects just beyond the '0' mark.

Edit to add: You only see it on the centers because they come with the 'short' taper, most likely because they are a 'lathe only' tool, unlike a drill chuck. Am I making sense?

Carld
03-01-2011, 01:06 AM
I have seen the same problem. Twice I have had to make a brass insert to press in the end of a live center to make it long enough to use the quill screw to force the taper out of the quill.

Not all manufacturers make the taper long enough for some reason, cutting corners is my guess. I have slid a slug of brass in the quill and then socked the taper in so I could pop the taper out when I was done.

Ian B
03-01-2011, 02:33 AM
Interesting point - I thought it was just me getting annoyed by this!

Same problem - I had to put a short brass button in the end of my live centre to get it to autoeject.

I have a dead centre (5 morse) that actually has an external thread just behind the point, and a knurled collar with holes for a C spanner. Seems a had way of doing a simple job, but it will eject from a socket that doesn't have any other means of ejecting.

I still don't know if tangs on drills were designed to drive or not - if not, then why don't centres also have tangs?

Ian

jkopel
03-01-2011, 02:47 AM
I don't think centers need tangs since centers don't impart rotational force.
When turning between centers it is the dog+drive plate that does all the driving.

big job
03-01-2011, 06:55 AM
I thought I was the only one. I like the plastic wedge, but wont work with
all my dead centers that i made. I never gave that a thought when I made
them being just a little too short so I glue buttons on them no need for
overkill they now come right out.

tdmidget
03-01-2011, 08:52 AM
Over and over this comes up. The tang IS NOT for driving the tool. It is for ejection only. If your taper doesn't hold the tang will twist right off. If the tapers are in good condition, properly machined and clean, they are the next best thing to a weld, except that you can pop it out when needed.
Dockrat has the right idea.

J Tiers
03-01-2011, 09:51 AM
My centers seem to eject OK from the Logan, but I have drill chucks that I had to cut the tang on to eject with a sensible amount of remaining travel (like under 0.5 inch).

I don't plan to use those chucks in the drill presses, so the short tang is no problem, no need for ejection from a DP spindle.

"tdm" is correct, although there are eternal optimists....... if the drill's taper looks like a corn cob, as it generally does in "Bubba's" shop, the tang is likely the only thing driving the drill..... and it is going to break off pretty soon, if it has not already. That doesn't make it right.

fciron
03-01-2011, 10:01 AM
I still don't know if tangs on drills were designed to drive or not - if not, then why don't centres also have tangs?

Centers don't have tangs because they are not ejected by hammering on a wedge. They're pushed out by retracting the tailstock, nice, easy and controlled.

The tang is a relieved end so that any burrs or dents incurred by hammering do not lock your taper into your drill press quill. (I once had to cut the end of a tang off with a little cape chisel to save an old drill press. )

Carld
03-01-2011, 10:20 AM
It's true the live center tapers don't have a tang and are sometimes to short because they don't have the tang. The taper is usually hollow and it's easy to press or screw a plug into it to extend it so the tailstock quill screw can eject the live center out of the quill.

It's not a big issue, just make an extension or slide a slug of brass into the quill taper before you insert the live center.

You can use a wedge if you want to, it's just a matter of preference.

As they say, what ever blows your dress up will work.

RussZHC
03-01-2011, 11:10 PM
Not a "solution" but an additional question/point.

Does the lack of ejection have to do with the screw in the tailstock?

I have noticed on the one I am replacing, the length past the end of the threaded section (Acme; the portion that would be in the ram nearest where the end of the center would be) is quite short and judging from wear, would have been maybe a 1/4" longer at one point in its history.

Rather than threading or inserting a screw into the center, could one "cap" the end of the tailstock screw, making it that bit longer?

fciron
03-02-2011, 12:06 AM
As they say, what ever blows your dress up will work.

If it works, it's right. ;)

Paul Alciatore
03-02-2011, 03:08 AM
I guess I made another new-bee mistake. I made a steel button instead of the proper brass one like the rest of you.

Oh, woe is me!

Carld
03-02-2011, 10:06 AM
Steel will work he says as he steels away with a steely look on his face while steeling all he can;) .

Russ, you could make an extension for the quill screw but it's easier to just extend the live center taper. The thing is, if it's short on one lathe it will probably be short on any lathe.

JCHannum
03-02-2011, 11:30 AM
Since most non-tanged tapers are hopefully made to the same dimensions, it makes more sense to extent the leadscrew than just add to the live center. Chances are that, if it won't eject that live center, it also will not eject any other live center.

Alistair Hosie
03-02-2011, 01:10 PM
I never have any problems with my lathe maybe there is a problem with your tailstock barrel. Alistair

Carld
03-02-2011, 01:50 PM
JC, HOPEFULLY is the key word there. While you may hope for a standard to be maintained it seldom is. Having measured the tapers that would not pop out they were always short.

Again, the lathe quill and screw should be held to a standard but the is also a HOPEFUL condition.

With that in mind do what ever it takes to make them work that satisfies your mind.

justanengineer
03-02-2011, 02:04 PM
:confused: I am mystified by this phenomenon as I am one of those strange people who have never used a lathe that required a tang to eject what was in the tailstock. The only time I have ever had incidents where something would not eject was where others stuck the wrong taper chuck, center, drill etc in the tailstock. Then again, I never knew someone need to hammer or seriously press a tool into a taper either...and that seems to be common practice with some.

gwilson
03-02-2011, 02:11 PM
Even my Hardinge HLVH has a socket head cap screw in the end of the Doall center that came with it. Both these things are top notch quality,yet the center apparently would not eject,so the last owner added the screw to the live center.

whoski
03-02-2011, 11:53 PM
The live center is the spindle center. The tailstock center often referred to as a "live center" is correctly known as a REVOLVING DEAD CENTER.

fciron
03-03-2011, 12:31 AM
The live center is the spindle center. The tailstock center often referred to as a "live center" is correctly known as a REVOLVING DEAD CENTER.

Not anymore, battle's over. We lost. Move on.

rockcombo
03-03-2011, 01:33 AM
I had the same issue when I went to use a live center that I had on my 10ee for the first time, my live center has a grease port and a threaded grease exit capped with allen head set screw on the end of the morse taper , I made a end to match a tang and threaded it in , works great :D .
http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac68/rockcombo/IMG_1914.jpg
http://i886.photobucket.com/albums/ac68/rockcombo/IMG_1917.jpg

Brice

Black_Moons
03-03-2011, 02:13 AM
lol you geek, making a tang for your live center.. thats just wrong :)

At the very least, round the corners of that tang! :P

I'll also note on some lathes that tang is likey to jam in the tailstock taper before the taper seats.

rockcombo
03-03-2011, 02:46 AM
lol you geek, making a tang for your live center.. thats just wrong :)

At the very least, round the corners of that tang! :P

I'll also note on some lathes that tang is likey to jam in the tailstock taper before the taper seats.

the tang isn't quite as big as it looks in the photo :) , it matches the dimensions of a MT2 , it is a little long though and I had planed to make it as short as possible and still get it to eject , but I had a project to get done and just haven't taken the time to trim it down since then .

yes ,a bolt would have worked just fine but I have a inch / metric Monarch and threading things allows me in a small way to justify it's existence in my basement workshop to my wife, who made the mistake of telling me to " just get the lathe I wanted and be done with it" , after watching a progression of lathes come and go as my addiction got bigger , she had no idea what result in . HA .

Paul Alciatore
03-03-2011, 04:06 AM
Since most non-tanged tapers are hopefully made to the same dimensions, it makes more sense to extent the leadscrew than just add to the live center. Chances are that, if it won't eject that live center, it also will not eject any other live center.

But if you extend the screw, then any accessories with tanged tapers will have a more limited range. I often have to move the tailstock to drill deeper and would not want to lose any of the range I presently have.

That's why I feel that adding a button to the ones without a tang is better. You don't need a full tang to get it to eject, just a button in the middle: about 1/8" diameter will do, perhaps 3/16", it's not critical.

philbur
03-03-2011, 04:54 AM
And if (when) the taper is not in good condition, properly machined and clean then it will spin, chew itself up and damage your tailstock taper. This is of course assuming it sheared off the tang. The tang is actually there to provide a degree of safety in the event of a taper slippage. Otherwise isn't it just an added liability?

My German built toolroom lathe has tang engagement in the tailstock but no where for a wedge to be used for disengagement. It will self-eject on retraction. It will also self-eject live and dead centers, without a tang. The only function of the tang appears to be to prevent slippage.

Why use a tang just to allow for use of a wedge when ejecting. Why not just extend the length of the taper with an end bevel to avoid burrs, much simpler to make, more meat to take the ejection load. In fact, just like a live/dead center design. Do a mental design exercise for the simplest wedge eject system, the tang design doesn't immediately come to mind does it. Now add the criteria for avoiding slippage in the event that the taper separates. Oh look now I have added a couple of flats on the end of the taper.

Phil:)

PS: Do you have any references to support the statement "The tang IS NOT for driving the tool. It is for ejection only."


Over and over this comes up. The tang IS NOT for driving the tool. It is for ejection only. If your taper doesn't hold the tang will twist right off. If the tapers are in good condition, properly machined and clean, they are the next best thing to a weld, except that you can pop it out when needed.
Dockrat has the right idea.

JCHannum
03-03-2011, 09:06 AM
The argument for the purpose of the tang comes up on occasion. There is plenty of documentation that states the tang is there as a partial aid in driving, including the fact that it is called a driving tang. I have never seen any documentation that says it is not for driving other than opinions expressed on the internet.

Good advice for using a MT shank drill in an untanged lathe spindle usually includes holding the drill with a lathe dog to prevent slippage or using a MT drill holder, which is a MT socket, complete with driving slot and handle to hold the drill.

It is another of those "You pays your money and you takes your choices" things. I will stick with the experts and consider it as sharing driving duties.

tdmidget
03-03-2011, 04:38 PM
PS: Do you have any references to support the statement "The tang IS NOT for driving the tool. It is for ejection only."

Here's a few:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_taper
http://www.machinist-guide.com/morse_taper_dimensions.html
http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Machine_taper
http://www.sizes.com/tools/morse_taper.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=4puBihzi7GEC&pg=PA132&lpg=PA132&dq=morse+taper+tang+purpose&source=bl&ots=n1OjMk5-Aj&sig=DH4c4SiwZqJG8xLPeOe8IILtFgg&hl=en&ei=9ZJvTar7OY34sAOIqaXCCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBjgy#v=onepage&q=morse%20taper%20tang%20purpose&f=false
http://www.directindustry.com/prod/sutton-tools/morse-taper-shank-drill-bits-30553-418378.html
Also, if the tang is required to drive the tool, how are they driven in tapers that have no slot?

philbur
03-03-2011, 05:29 PM
Not one of the reference says that the tang IS NOT for driving the tool. It is for ejection only.

Phil:)


PS: Do you have any references to support the statement "The tang IS NOT for driving the tool. It is for ejection only."

Here's a few:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_taper
http://www.machinist-guide.com/morse_taper_dimensions.html
http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Machine_taper
http://www.sizes.com/tools/morse_taper.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=4puBihzi7GEC&pg=PA132&lpg=PA132&dq=morse+taper+tang+purpose&source=bl&ots=n1OjMk5-Aj&sig=DH4c4SiwZqJG8xLPeOe8IILtFgg&hl=en&ei=9ZJvTar7OY34sAOIqaXCCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBjgy#v=onepage&q=morse%20taper%20tang%20purpose&f=false
http://www.directindustry.com/prod/sutton-tools/morse-taper-shank-drill-bits-30553-418378.html
Also, if the tang is required to drive the tool, how are they driven in tapers that have no slot?

tdmidget
03-03-2011, 09:55 PM
Have it your way , philbur. But remember that that tang is dead soft and will twist off at the drop of a hat. I have seen it happen. Depending on the tang to drive a drill is like depending on an ejection seat for a safe flight. Either way you have failed if it comes into play.

J Harp
03-03-2011, 10:53 PM
I have an mt2 screw center meant for a wood lathe. I use it minus the screw for a pusher if I need to drill something with a spindle mounted drill. It's too short to eject, so I put a 7/16 or so steel ball behind it. When I eject it the ball rolls out of the taper.

tdmidget
03-04-2011, 12:14 AM
I have an mt2 screw center meant for a wood lathe. I use it minus the screw for a pusher if I need to drill something with a spindle mounted drill. It's too short to eject, so I put a 7/16 or so steel ball behind it. When I eject it the ball rolls out of the taper.

I'm not a woodworker, so this is completely incomprehensable to me.
What is a "screw center"?
A "spindle mounted drill"? We are talking about tailstock quills here.

philbur
03-04-2011, 05:26 AM
Hi TDM, Not trying to have it my way just interested in the correct answer. Intended as a drive or not, when your taper slips the only thing between you and a damaged taper is the tang, soft or otherwise. If you overload any tool you will have a failure at the weak point. I've seen twist drills shear off across the flutes, it doesn't mean that twist drills are not supposed to be driven, it just means it was abused beyond its limit. For safety reasons I would guess that it is much better that it fails at the tang that the flutes.

Phil:)


Have it your way , philbur. But remember that that tang is dead soft and will twist off at the drop of a hat. I have seen it happen. Depending on the tang to drive a drill is like depending on an ejection seat for a safe flight. Either way you have failed if it comes into play.

tdmidget
03-04-2011, 07:04 AM
But again, if it slips, the damage is done. It may have happened before that drill was put in or at that instant but matching tapers will not slip. So it was either dirty or damaged on the tool or quill if it slips.
The whole principle of the morse and other deep tapers is that they grip even more as pressure is applied.

J Harp
03-04-2011, 07:12 AM
tdmidget;

A screw center looks something like a drilling pad with a wood screw type thread sticking out of the center. That wood screw point is threaded something like 1/4-20 on the other end, think lag bolt. I removed the "lag bolt", and have used the pad which is about 2" dia., to push a piece of mdf. into a hole saw in a headstock drill chuck. The mdf. was too big to swing for normal tailstock drilling. The tip I was trying to give was the use of a ball to allow ejecting the short taper shank from the tailstock. For frequent use I suppose you should modify the taper shank, but for occasional use the ball works fine and it doesn't have to be fished out.

philbur
03-04-2011, 09:54 AM
If every thing is perfect. Are there experienced people on this board who have not had a taper slip.

When a drill bit breaks though the final part of the cut can actually snatch the drill out of the taper. Also if the drill diameter is large and the two cutting edges are not equal the drilling action can cause the drill to wobble in the hole causing lateral forces on the taper and out she comes.

Phil:)


The whole principle of the morse and other deep tapers is that they grip even more as pressure is applied.

fciron
03-04-2011, 10:03 AM
As the first person to mention the 'tang driving' controversy I apologize to everyone. ;-)

In reference to the OP's question the driving properties of tangs are not really relevant. The answer to his question is that centers have short tapers because they are not intended to be used in anything other than a lathe where they are ejected by the screw. They don't have a tang, because the tang would be useless in most lathes. Can we agree on that?

Both sides of the tang debate seem to agree that the taper is the main driver and both sides seem to agree that slippage is bad. From what I can see this debate should not have any effect on shop practice, both sides advocate clean well-fitted tapers. We agree that whether or not the tang does any driving one should not count on the tang to salvage a dirty or damaged taper.

What is actually being debated here?

fciron
03-04-2011, 10:06 AM
deleted, because I'm done debating. Sorry, thanks.

Lewis

philbur
03-04-2011, 11:17 AM
Not really. It would, as in my lathe, prevent the taper on a drill from slipping. I am very happy than the tailstock on my lathe engages the tang. The centers don't have (or need) a tang because the don't see any torque in normal use.

I'm not sure why you should feel so uncomfortable with the current discussion regarding the purpose of the tang.

Phil.:)


..... because the tang would be useless in most lathes. Can we agree on that?

J. Randall
03-04-2011, 05:12 PM
My German built toolroom lathe has tang engagement in the tailstock but no where for a wedge to be used for disengagement. It will self-eject on retraction. It will also self-eject live and dead centers, without a tang. The only function of the tang appears to be to prevent slippage.



Phil:)

PS: Do you have any references to support the statement "The tang IS NOT for driving the tool. It is for ejection only."

Phil, I am in the other camp, and without going through the whole argument, I would say your German lathe was built to accommodate already existing tooling that had a tang, such as Morse taper drills. Not necessarily to help drive the tool.
James

JCHannum
03-04-2011, 05:54 PM
Lots of smaller, say under 14", lathes do not have the slot for the driving tang, yet accomodate and eject both tanged and untanged accessories.

The Morse Taper was originally developed a century or more ago for use on drills. Manufacturing techniques at that time were not as sophisticated or automated as they are today. If the purpose of the tang was intended to be solely for purposes of ejection, a much more economical and simpler to manufacture alternate could certainly have been implemented. As simple a feature as a straight turned section on the end of the tang could be machined at the same time the taper is turned. In fact the tang has such a sub-diameter is turned and then followed with another separate operation to machine the flats. Machining at the time would have meant a separate step being performed on a separate machine.

In drill nomenclature, the tang and slot of a Morse Taper drill and spindle are referred to as the driving tang and the driving slot. By the same token, the parallel flats on the end of the shank of a straight shank drill are also referred to as the driving tang. Coincidence? I don't think so, same definition, same function.

philbur
03-04-2011, 08:39 PM
I do understand that the primary drive is via the friction of the selfholding taper. However if the tang is not there to provide some assistance in the event that the taper attempts to slip then the "flat" tang would seem to be an unecessary liability.

Phil:)

J. Randall
03-04-2011, 11:11 PM
If the tang is actually meant to have the capability of driving the tool, after the force it takes to overcome the taper, how come they are usually left dead soft, and wring off easily?
James

mochinist
03-04-2011, 11:22 PM
If the tang is actually meant to have the capability of driving the tool, after the force it takes to overcome the taper, how come they are usually left dead soft, and wring off easily?
JamesMaybe it's because if the tang was hardened, it would cause more damage to the internal taper if it spun and broke?

tdmidget
03-04-2011, 11:58 PM
BUT the quill taper is also soft, that's how it can be reamed. In my experience, when the taper fails and the tang engages, usually the taper is damaged by galling. I have seen the slot for the tang so damaged that a tang would no longer fit and it has to be remachined. I think you are absolutely right. if it was to be engaged to drive the drill (or what ever) , it would be hardened.
As I previously stated , if the tang engages to drive the tool, the taper has already failed. Like an ejection seat or the airbags in your car, these are not symbols of success.

philbur
03-05-2011, 05:37 AM
Yes but everybody knows that morse tapers do slip for a variaty of reasons, so why make the tang soft if you know it will ring off, why not heat treat it to make it tougher or use a stud that will not ring off when the taper slips. Without a logical answer to these two questions we will continue to go in circles.

It seems that it's not a case of leaving it soft, it actually requires additional effort to ensure it remains soft (together with the taper). Possibly a hardened/tempered tang, with burrs from repeated hammering with a wedge would cause damage to the spindle taper during repeated insertions. Certainly the standard answer as to why the taper is soft is: to reduce the wear rate on the spindle taper.

So my current conclusion is that it is a design compromise in order to incorporate two conflicting functional requirements.

1) Prevent spinning/when the taper slips. (harden/tempered tang preferred)
2) Not damge the spindle taper during repeated insertion. (soft tang preferred)

Phil:)


If the tang is actually meant to have the capability of driving the tool, after the force it takes to overcome the taper, how come they are usually left dead soft, and wring off easily?
James

JCHannum
03-05-2011, 08:47 AM
Like most drills, many taper shank drills have the shank temper drawn back so that it is not as hard as the drill. The tang will be the same hardness as the shank. Different manufacturers heat treat differently, and some drills are hard the full length, some the shank and tang are softer.

Some taper shank drills are also of two part construction, the drill being sweat fitted to a taper socket. There is no one specific rule which will define the construction or temper of the shank.

It as an argument which cannot be settled, believe what you will. I am a belt & suspenders guy, and will stick to the theory the tang serves a dual purpose of removal and sharing driving forces. There are more reasons to believe that it does, including many references in the literature, than to believe that it does not.

philbur
03-05-2011, 08:57 AM
I've read all the ISO standards for Morse tapers than I can find. There is lots of detail about tang dimensions but a suspicious lack of a definition of purpose and required material properties.

Morse taper arbors do have a requirement for a minimum tensile strength of 800 Nm^2 and hardness of 56 (+4) HRC for the driving tenon, but thats for obvious reasons.

Phil:)

fciron
03-05-2011, 10:29 AM
I was suggesting ending the debate because I don't see what application it has to shop practice. Whether or not I believe the tang shares in the driving duties has no effect on how I handle morse taper tooling in the shop.

If it does not change how we handle the tools, what exactly is the debate?

philbur
03-05-2011, 11:24 AM
I think that understanding how and why his tools work is an indispensable part of a machinist's knowledge.

Phil:)

PS: It's a significant part of what separates him from a machine operator.


I was suggesting ending the debate because I don't see what application it has to shop practice. Whether or not I believe the tang shares in the driving duties has no effect on how I handle morse taper tooling in the shop.

If it does not change how we handle the tools, what exactly is the debate?

fciron
03-05-2011, 02:38 PM
My point exactly. We should handle Morse taper tooling as though the tang did not drive the tool.

The taper defines the relationship between the tool and the machine, it imparts most (if not all) of the rotational force to the tool. It is the part that needs to be kept clean and protected to preserve accuracy. What changes in my shop if I believe the tang imparts some minor rotational force to the tool?

danlb
03-05-2011, 03:33 PM
RE: the use of a wedge to remove a live center with a short taper.

I'd be cautious about using a wedge, since the live center body (that spins) is supported by bearings. I'd hate to ruin the bearings by applying force from the back at a weird angle.

The wedge on a drill chuck bears against the solid body that the arbor fits into, so there is no danger there.


Re: Tang = driver... It seems that for it to be a GOOD driver you need an exceedingly good fit of the tang to the socket. Without a perfect fit, the morse taper is allowed to slip a degree or two before the tang hits the sides and the taper will be scored or galled.

Dan

philbur
03-05-2011, 04:05 PM
Possibly the way you insert the taper for one. I always make sure I rotate it so that the tang is fully engaged for driving, removing the ability for the taper to rotate a degree or two if it slips, before the tang drives.


What changes in my shop if I believe the tang imparts some minor rotational force to the tool?

philbur
03-05-2011, 04:09 PM
See post #55. In any case I would have thought that a one degree slip would be much more preferrable to 200 + rpm.

Phil:)




Re: Tang = driver... It seems that for it to be a GOOD driver you need an exceedingly good fit of the tang to the socket. Without a perfect fit, the morse taper is allowed to slip a degree or two before the tang hits the sides and the taper will be scored or galled.

Dan

dfw5914
03-05-2011, 04:41 PM
You guys are waaay off:
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n188/pmhurco/TangMT3.jpg

fciron
03-05-2011, 09:08 PM
Ooooh, like astronauts drink!