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View Full Version : does kbctools sell chinese HSS bits?



Elninio
03-03-2011, 09:46 AM
They have some HSS bits that are some brand that I don't recognise (actually, I don't remember if they even state the brand). Is this chinese quality?

MotorradMike
03-03-2011, 09:49 AM
Anything Chinese is advertised as "quality import".

You get what you pay for, but you know that.

Elninio
03-03-2011, 10:11 AM
Well are we talking about 'Taiwan' level of crap, or are we talking about 'China' level of crap? Do HSS bars have a greater variance in craposity as compared to pre-sharpened tools like endmills?

cuemaker
03-03-2011, 10:31 AM
Steel in general from China can be a crap shoot...The material you get could be perfectly to standard and on par with the the best of the best or (and maybe more likely) it can be "close" but not quite right..Even though the mill certifies it to meet spec.. a seperate chem and phys is needed to actually check...

MotorradMike
03-03-2011, 10:32 AM
I bought a center drill which is definitely Chinese, there's a $1.12 I'll never get back.

I generally try to buy Niagara cutter for end mills and countersinks.

I now only buy "Quality Import" for HSS blanks. I've not had trouble with Chinese blanks but I may not know the difference.

Elninio
03-03-2011, 10:39 AM
http://www.kbctools.com/usa/Navigation/NavPDF.cfm?PDFPage=245

On this page, they sell the no-name brand in short lenghts, the named brand in 12" lenghts and nothing else.
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1693/catsdd.png

Also, what's with the huge price difference between the lenghts of HSS rounds, is it a mistake? See here: http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=46834

Mike Hunter
03-03-2011, 11:46 AM
I imagine anytime you see the words “Quality Import”, the products came from the cheapest supplier. Could be China, India, Pakistan Vietnam etc… whoever is the cheapest that month.

Although, I’ve been pleasantly surprised a few times by Enco; Their 3/8 DT cutters are made in Japan and are very nice, I ordered some keyway cutters advertised as “Quality Import” that were actually made in the USA.

For good quality HSS steel I would look at: http://arwarnerco.com/index.html
Nice folks to deal with.


V/R

Mike

Black_Moons
03-03-2011, 12:27 PM
I ordered some keyway cutters advertised as “Quality Import” that were actually made in the USA.
Mike

"A lot of our imports come from overseas!" - George bush.
And apparently, some of them, are produced localy.

Arthur.Marks
03-03-2011, 01:30 PM
KBC = Generic China. Yes.
If this bothers you for whatever reason, just order here: Lathe Bits (http://www.mcmaster.com/#lathe-bits/=b9vux5). I'm not trying to argue whether it should or shouldn't, BTW.

I don't get why people sweat the few bucks / possible metallurgical compromise for HSS tool blanks. I could understand it for blank carbide due to the comparative price escalation, but HSS bits are some of the least expensive and longest-lasting pieces of tooling you'll ever buy. Why sweat less than $5 between 'excellent' and 'okay'?

Arthur.Marks
03-03-2011, 01:43 PM
Two things I would also like to mention here I've learned from experience:
1) You really don't need a whole handful of blanks. It is wishful thinking. If you're just starting out, get at most five.
2) If you need to split pennies, there is no reason each bit can't be ground on both ends.
3) There is no need to get the max. size bit for your toolholder/lathe dimensions! It won't make a difference except in your wallet. For that 1 time in a million, you can always buy a larger size when you need it.

Just my 2% :)

Mcgyver
03-03-2011, 01:50 PM
KBC = Generic China. Yes.
If this bothers you for whatever reason, just order here: Lathe Bits (http://www.mcmaster.com/#lathe-bits/=b9vux5). I'm not trying to argue whether it should or shouldn't, BTW.

I don't get why people sweat the few bucks

Part of the problem is we're in Kanukstan. We have one mail order tool house, KBC, pricey and with 1/50th the line items of McMaster. Stunningly, the big US industrial supply catalogue houses completely ignore this market; despite it being the size of California and Toronto alone have an industrial market the size of Chicago's. Digikey can put stuff on my doorstep the next morning from the States, and who has to deal with more sku's & small item picking than electronics distributors, yet Mcmaster et al haven't been able to cope with exporting to your countries biggest trading partner!

Unbelievable, I mean industrial supply has to be a pretty crappy business these days; mature, no or negative growth, hard to differentiate yourself, hammered margins and lots of competition. ....yet they are all ignoring an easy market that is next door and could provide 10% or more growth

So its a frustrating limited choice that influences us komrads choices.

Elnino, you should put your location in your profile so the guys would know

wierdscience
03-03-2011, 02:15 PM
We keep KBC HSS toolbits on the shelf at work for all the wood turners and pen makers in town.They use them for blanks for making turning tools.

All the KBC brand we have had are made in India.They are fair quality,but nothing to write home about in terms of metal cutting.Work great for wood turning tools.

wierdscience
03-03-2011, 02:27 PM
Part of the problem is we're in Kanukstan. We have one mail order tool house, KBC, pricey and with 1/50th the line items of McMaster. Stunningly, the big US industrial supply catalogue houses completely ignore this market; despite it being the size of California and Toronto alone have an industrial market the size of Chicago's. Digikey can put stuff on my doorstep the next morning from the States, and who has to deal with more sku's & small item picking than electronics distributors, yet Mcmaster et al haven't been able to cope with exporting to your countries biggest trading partner!

Unbelievable, I mean industrial supply has to be a pretty crappy business these days; mature, no or negative growth, hard to differentiate yourself, hammered margins and lots of competition. ....yet they are all ignoring an easy market that is next door and could provide 10% or more growth

So its a frustrating limited choice that influences us komrads choices.

Elnino, you should put your location in your profile so the guys would know

It's the fault of our respective governments that things are FUBAR in cross boarder trade.

All the paperwork,taxes and brokerage fees are a nightmare and I don't blame folks for not doing business.

I also tend to think UPS and Fedex are lobbying both side to keep the BS in place.After All they make a killing in brokerage fees.

Elninio
03-03-2011, 02:27 PM
Just got them, they're bipico made in india. On their website, I notice they also sell "BP 505 GRADE T42 WITH 10% COBALT AND CRYOGENIC TREATMENT " , what is cryogenic treatment?

Arthur.Marks
03-03-2011, 02:32 PM
Not meaning to raise a political argument. Elninio doesn't list his location.

Elninio
03-03-2011, 02:34 PM
Part of the problem is we're in Kanukstan. We have one mail order tool house, KBC, pricey and with 1/50th the line items of McMaster. Stunningly, the big US industrial supply catalogue houses completely ignore this market; despite it being the size of California and Toronto alone have an industrial market the size of Chicago's. Digikey can put stuff on my doorstep the next morning from the States, and who has to deal with more sku's & small item picking than electronics distributors, yet Mcmaster et al haven't been able to cope with exporting to your countries biggest trading partner!

Unbelievable, I mean industrial supply has to be a pretty crappy business these days; mature, no or negative growth, hard to differentiate yourself, hammered margins and lots of competition. ....yet they are all ignoring an easy market that is next door and could provide 10% or more growth

So its a frustrating limited choice that influences us komrads choices.

Elnino, you should put your location in your profile so the guys would know

If you're following my other thread on magnets, I was looking for some small magnets (about 10 1/2" magnets), the shipping came to 60$ from USA. Edit: 10 is the quantity, not 10.5" diameter magnets.

Arthur.Marks
03-03-2011, 02:41 PM
I wonder how receptive Arthur R. Warner is to shipping north reasonably? I know he is on this BBS, and I've had nothing but receptive, courteous service from them. They do sell direct and make a very nice product. Straight tool blanks are available---not just the indexable stuff usually brought up.

http://www.arwarnerco.com/
http://www.arwarnerco.com/warner_catalog_toolbits.html

Elninio
03-03-2011, 02:48 PM
Not meaning to raise a political argument. Elninio doesn't list his location.

I guess it is kind of weird not having a location up, having been on the forum for a while. I never planned staying this long, and didn't bother putting my a location when registered.

Elninio
03-03-2011, 02:49 PM
I just noticed something in the square HSS bit just bought, uploading pictures right now ...
First, the faces of the bit are angled about 5 to 10 degrees in both directions: is it produced this way on purpose, or was their bandsaw just off? Second, there's two holes in my square bit, on each end, and about as deep as they are in diameter. They don't like they were placed there on purpose. Could the material be contaminated and have these large granules in them?
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2186/32299007.jpg
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/1955/15161162.jpg
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/7439/86981488.jpg

Arthur.Marks
03-03-2011, 03:18 PM
The 10-degrees is on purpose. It is to provide a convenient end clearance. Never seen (or heard) of holes anywhere on a blank bit :confused: ...that shouldn't be there, but likely won't make a big difference if you grind the hole orientated toward the bottom of the bit (unless you're making a form cutter).

Elninio
03-03-2011, 03:21 PM
The 10-degrees is on purpose. It is to provide a convenient end clearance. Never seen (or heard) of holes anywhere on a blank bit :confused:
It's not like my other bits; there is an inclination in both directions (as in, there are four inclinations, since there are two ends). I've never seen this before, and in the horinzontal position (i.e we're not talking about a tangent tool holder), the peak is facing to the right. If it was facing left I'd assume it was done on purpose, since that's lathes have their chucks on the left ...

Arthur.Marks
03-03-2011, 03:26 PM
Yeah. Your assumption is very likely correct: their grinder was not aligned properly. I've never received one like that from anybody or seen a listing for such an angle.

Elninio
03-03-2011, 03:33 PM
Yeah. Your assumption is very likely correct: their grinder was not aligned properly. I've never received one like that from anybody or seen a listing for such an angle.
It was cut with a bandsaw though, not even a cold-cut saw. You can tell by the marks it left behind. Since it is angle in both axes, I would assume they don't cut many at once on say a 12" bandsaw (maybe two, three, four at a time). It was probably done one of those mini-bandsaws!

Mcgyver
03-03-2011, 03:36 PM
It's the fault of our respective governments that things are FUBAR in cross boarder trade.

All the paperwork,taxes and brokerage fees are a nightmare and I don't blame folks for not doing business.

I also tend to think UPS and Fedex are lobbying both side to keep the BS in place.After All they make a killing in brokerage fees.

It really is amazing that the worlds longest undefended board, largest trading parters and aurguably closest two nations in culture have made such a schmozzle of it......... still i say excuses excuses...Digikey has been able to figure it out.

Thomas Staubo
03-03-2011, 03:47 PM
Second, there's two holes in my square bit, on each end, and about as deep as they are in diameter. They don't like they were placed there on purpose. Could the material be contaminated and have these large granules in them? Actually, if you look at the picture in the McMaster catalog, they show a toolbit with what looks like a hole in the end too:

http://images2.mcmaster.com/Contents/gfx/large/3200a24p1l.png?ver=11542381

Weird, I have never seen that before, and have no idea why there's a hole there :confused:.


.

Arthur.Marks
03-03-2011, 03:50 PM
FWIW, a typical generic tool bit in my experience:
http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx357/Arrak_Thumrs/Widgets/DSCN4459.jpg

Elninio
03-03-2011, 03:53 PM
FWIW, a typical generic tool bit in my experience:

That's what my other bits look like.

David Powell
03-03-2011, 04:07 PM
Join your local Model Engineering or live steam group. sadly many members are elderly and inevitably, almost every year or so someone will leave to go to the workshop in ths sky. While the larger equipment may not be of interest or available to all, often the " oddments "get sold off down at or by the group, either by word of mouth or perhaps by auction at a meeting. On such occasions one can often buy tool steel blanks, some new but often used ( And sometimes with Amazing, good or bad grinds)dating back to carbon steel days, many with exciting names of long gone firms. This way you get two thrills when you use them, that of using a quality tool and that of remembering an older friend or acquaintance. I rather like " REX" brand tool bits, remind me of a long gone pal's dog, and bite like he used to! Regards David Powell.

Black_Moons
03-03-2011, 04:19 PM
Weird and crazy stuff: I recently bought from Austrailia to canada BC... Now, you'd assume this is gonna be the slow boat and take 2 months at best right? I mean, it took me 26 days to get my silver solder from just across the USA...
Small orders.. $4.90 per 250 grams, 6~15 business days shipping. For larger orders.. the shipper offered.. $12 flat rate shiping, 3~5 working days, For orders over $200, Free shipping, 3~5 days.


3 days after ordering, My package arrived.... From Austrialia... Customs fees? None! Wasent even steped on, run over with tire tracks left on the cardboard, or droped from an aircraft at 10,000 feet.

Talk about service! I did'nt even know it could be done.
USPS, UPS, Fedex, Your days are numbered!
PS: It was with tnt.com that they shiped my package.
They even TRACKED it. right to canada, and with delivery attempts tracked. Often USPS tracking once it gets to canada is... Non existant.

I don't think I can send stuff within CANADA that cheaply!

isaac338
03-03-2011, 09:18 PM
Often USPS tracking once it gets to canada is... Non existant.


Try typing the tracking number in to the Canada Post website - I've had luck doing that.

wierdscience
03-03-2011, 09:44 PM
Those little divots are there for holding the rough blanks during grinding.There is a video floating around on the net showing how they do it.

Basically a knife rest with an air operated finger at each end.The blank is set in place,the fingers grab the bit and send it between two segmented grinding wheels which size both opposite side at the same time.The knife rest gigs back and the bit is flipped 90*dressing the other sides.That's also why the cheaper bits may or may not be square.

wierdscience
03-03-2011, 09:48 PM
Just got them, they're bipico made in india. On their website, I notice they also sell "BP 505 GRADE T42 WITH 10% COBALT AND CRYOGENIC TREATMENT " , what is cryogenic treatment?

Cryo-treatment is an extension of the heat treating quench,except it's taking the metal down past room temps and well past 0*F.

It's be proven to add extra toughness and edge holding quality in things like toolbits,chainsaw teeth and even automotive wrist pins.

PeteF
03-03-2011, 10:05 PM
Weird and crazy stuff: I recently bought from Austrailia to canada BC... Now, you'd assume this is gonna be the slow boat and take 2 months at best right? I mean, it took me 26 days to get my silver solder from just across the USA...
Small orders.. $4.90 per 250 grams, 6~15 business days shipping. For larger orders.. the shipper offered.. $12 flat rate shiping, 3~5 working days, For orders over $200, Free shipping, 3~5 days.


3 days after ordering, My package arrived.... From Austrialia... Customs fees? None! Wasent even steped on, run over with tire tracks left on the cardboard, or droped from an aircraft at 10,000 feet.

Talk about service! I did'nt even know it could be done.
USPS, UPS, Fedex, Your days are numbered!
PS: It was with tnt.com that they shiped my package.
They even TRACKED it. right to canada, and with delivery attempts tracked. Often USPS tracking once it gets to canada is... Non existant.

I don't think I can send stuff within CANADA that cheaply!

Although there are certainly some sad exceptions, freight to/from Australia is generally very good, and much cheaper than many other countries. I guess it's because nobody lives here and we don't produce anything, so there's a long history of shipping stuff in and out of the joint :D Some years back I bought some large hi-fi speakers while in London and had them air-freighted back. I stopped in Bangkok for a couple of days on the way back, and the speakers actually beat me back to Australia by a day. Paperwork was ready for me, "hey welcome home, now come collect your fancy speakers, they're here waiting for you!"

Elninio
03-04-2011, 05:39 AM
You sure it shipped from australia? I think they may have had some stock in USA. Same thing happened with a bunch of ebay products I bought; the chinese parts took weeks, while some slippers I bought from peru arrived within two days of purchase! Funny thing is, I (not even complaining), asked the seller where my package was, he offered me a refund (I didn't ask for a refund), the next day I see a refund in my paypal, the day after that my package arrives. I asked him if he wanted he money back, have not gotten a reply about a month later.

masimec
03-05-2011, 09:41 AM
I bought some 3/8 square HSS 5% Cobalt of the "KBC brands" . They are from poland. It work very well....

uncle pete
03-05-2011, 10:13 AM
As far as KBC Canaduh goes, I've decided on my own trade barriers with them. They no longer get my money and I no longer get their highly overpriced products. For those that don't know, There is no duty on Machine tools, Machine tool accesories, And cutting tools from the U.S. So given that our dollar is about par with the U.S. greenback, You pay for that overpriced shipping/brokerage fees, and the Canuck sales tax rape. It's not worth importing minor items, But if you save up a bit and make larger orders you can save quite a bit by ordering out of the U.S.

Edited to add, Not every single item is cheaper from the U.S. so as always comparison shopping is a good idea. Overall, Most items are cheaper tho.

Pete

Richard-TX
03-05-2011, 10:57 AM
I buy nothing but cobalt bits. Plain HSS is just too soft and dulls too quickly. The more cobalt the better.

If you think the imported bits are costly, take a look at the Super Mo-Max bits. $30.00+ for a single 7/16" bit. It is a premium bit and the price reflects it.

Elninio
03-05-2011, 11:46 AM
Any of you canucks going to be placing bulk orders soon? Maybe we can order together in order to lower shipping costs?

J. Randall
03-05-2011, 12:11 PM
I buy nothing but cobalt bits. Plain HSS is just too soft and dulls too quickly. The more cobalt the better.

If you think the imported bits are costly, take a look at the Super Mo-Max bits. $30.00+ for a single 7/16" bit. It is a premium bit and the price reflects it.
Richard, a couple of yrs. ago I got 15 of those for a dollar a piece, I knew they were high quality, but did not know they were quite that pricey.
James