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View Full Version : Multiplaz a good idea?



TGTool
03-03-2011, 03:29 PM
I just got a call from this outfit looking for dealers in the US. They claim they've got this plasma machine that will do anything and everything. Weld, solder, braze, cut ferrous, non-ferrous, concrete, what have you. It is said to use plain water or a water alcohol mix for some operations as a consumable.

They referred me to the website www.multiplaz.com to look them over. It's an interesting pitch but I don't have enough experience with plasma machines to evaluate their claims. Anyone else actually seen or operated one of these things?

I might also mention that I also haven't been able to verify their claim of prize winning at a Geneva Invention show, but I simply may not have found the right reference.

squirrel
03-03-2011, 04:47 PM
Its hard to tell with out actually using it. After watching the copper welding video it looks akward to use unlike a "TIG", for that type of welding I prefer the small TIG torch. It might be a good unit to carry on a service truck or home shop since its 120 volts.

SVS
03-03-2011, 04:56 PM
I read most of the link and my BS detector is buzzing....the "unbiased" testimonial from the hot rod dude segues into a sales pitch that is darn close to plagarism of the rest of the site.

I would want a lot more of the physics of the device explained, and make sure they don't have a Nigerian mailing address, etc.

gwilson
03-03-2011, 05:34 PM
Pretty big claims for 110 volt unit. Says in 1 place it cuts 7/16",in another it cuts 3/8".

That flame doesn't look like it would do neat cuts,either.

ckelloug
03-03-2011, 05:58 PM
Don't know about the company. I did a bit of googling and found a wikipedia entry on plasma welding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_arc_welding

The article references the American Welding society Handbook.

TGTool
03-03-2011, 06:45 PM
Plasma cutters have been around long enough to be a known quantity. This combination with welding and the water/alcohol bit stands out. Knowing nothing about this device or much at all about the major plasma outfits, my first questions would be why isn't anyone else using one or both of these different characteristics. The big guys have money for research and marketing and a piece of market territory to defend. There may well be real technical merits but it starts to sound like the 100 mpg carburetor.

GadgetBuilder
03-03-2011, 07:01 PM
The hot rodder claims near the end of his testimonial that the torch uses 2.5kw which is equivalent to three 100W bulbs. Seems like an egregious error that shouldn't be on the site.

2.5kw is near 25a at 110v so this could be an issue with most 110v outlets, where 15a is typical. Their newest 3.5kw unit would definitely be an issue for most outlets.

The soldering video notes that after use you should immerse the tip of the unit in water "until it stops hissing". So it may not be practical for jobs longer than those shown in the videos; the unit may get too hot to hold.

Seems like a good approach would be to ask for an evaluation unit on loan. If they want you as a dealer this would seem a reasonable request.

John

PTSideshow
03-03-2011, 07:59 PM
They have a new and redesigned web site, they have been humping the unit for a number of years both to sell and as an item to sell. They started out on welding forums/metal arts forums.
Biggest thing they have to over come is their imported only. There must be a reason that Hobart, Miller, Lincoln, Esab and Harbor Freight haven't jumped on the band wagon.
As somebody from Millers service dept pointed out, they do work to a point, but they are limited in scope as to size, duration etc.
Like this one been around for a while, you have seen the auto version on the news (http://www.hytechapps.com/products.html) neither one has gone anywhere. Many thousands of units are in use as jewelry welding water torches.etc.
like this one (http://www.spirig.com/index.php?id=97)
or this one (http://www.lrultrasonics.com/industries/industrial/aqua.html) most of the smaller units are north of $5,000

EcoWelder
06-13-2011, 07:36 PM
Hi i represent EcoWelder company that is an authorized reseller and service center for Multiplaz 3500 in Burbank, CA 91501. I will be more than happy to address any of your concerns in regards to product operation, maintenance, functionality etc

Also I've been doing a couple of demonstrations in San Fernando Valley and posted out videos at our blog: http://www.facebook.com/EcoWelder

This technology did indeed get a Gran Prix prize at the 26th International Salon of Inventions in Geneva in 1997.

Best,

Ecowelder

Jaakko Fagerlund
06-14-2011, 12:29 AM
From the description it indeed sounds like a basic electrolysis welder, meaning it breaks water to oxygen & hydrogen with electricity. Yes it works and yes it is nice to have an "unlimited" source of "gas" and the flame is stoichiometric at all times (unless you dope it), meaning no extra oxygen or fuel gas. And no soot, but water as a burning product :)

Those have been used for ages by goldsmiths/jewelry makers. Been thinking of building one myself.

philbur
06-14-2011, 02:31 PM
So where has it been in the intervening 14 years since it's prize winning debut.

Why don't I already have one in my workshop? Does anybody? If you can answer that you will know whether it represents a business opportunity or not.

Phil:)

Rustybolt
06-14-2011, 03:46 PM
I forgot to buy one.

macona
06-14-2011, 03:56 PM
From the description it indeed sounds like a basic electrolysis welder, meaning it breaks water to oxygen & hydrogen with electricity. Yes it works and yes it is nice to have an "unlimited" source of "gas" and the flame is stoichiometric at all times (unless you dope it), meaning no extra oxygen or fuel gas. And no soot, but water as a burning product :)

Those have been used for ages by goldsmiths/jewelry makers. Been thinking of building one myself.


I think it is part electrolysis and part atomic hydrogen welder.

Jaakko Fagerlund
06-14-2011, 04:04 PM
I think it is part electrolysis and part atomic hydrogen welder.
What do you mean by part? It works with electrolysis, nothing more and nothing special. What comes to atomic hydrogen (H), that is a molecule that doesn't like to stay alone but rather likes to form hydrogen gas (H2).

Sure one could put an arc after the nozzle to achieve plasma like condition in the very end (this would form plain atomic hydrogen), but how much advantage would it give?

rohart
06-14-2011, 06:43 PM
Specification: Welding type - Plasma and Plasma arc.

What - No tig ?

There are plenty of Tig machines out there that will do MMA and plasma cutting. With a Tig machine you can solder, braze, weld anything that will melt...

Until this technique establishes a niche in some industrial processes, they haven't found their marketplace. They certainly haven't found their Unique Selling Point.

Just Bob Again
06-14-2011, 10:19 PM
What do you mean by part? It works with electrolysis, nothing more and nothing special.

Would be nice if you stated the actual facts, not wild assumptions. It is not a hydrogen/oxygen torch using electrolysis. I don't endorse the machine and it looks like they deliberately leave out a lot of info on their website, but this is a type of plasma torch. They mix water and alcohol (or other hydrocarbons), it gets flashed into steam and an arc is used to generate the plasma. Very similar to a plasma cutter but steam rather than compressed air. The idea has been around a long time. Don't know why it has not been a commercial success. Developed in the Soviet Union I think.

Jaakko Fagerlund
06-15-2011, 12:34 AM
Would be nice if you stated the actual facts, not wild assumptions. It is not a hydrogen/oxygen torch using electrolysis. I don't endorse the machine and it looks like they deliberately leave out a lot of info on their website, but this is a type of plasma torch. They mix water and alcohol (or other hydrocarbons), it gets flashed into steam and an arc is used to generate the plasma. Very similar to a plasma cutter but steam rather than compressed air. The idea has been around a long time. Don't know why it has not been a commercial success. Developed in the Soviet Union I think.
Well, funny then that in the actual video (welding copper) they load it up with ordinary tap water and a flame comes out.

macona
06-15-2011, 01:01 AM
I found the patent for it. US Patent 6087616.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=XfMDAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&source=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=true

Basically it is a plasma torch that uses water vapor as the plasma gas. The surround of the plasma chamber is a porous material fed with water. The heat from the pilot arc vaporizes the water. Looks like pilot arc current controls the water vapor pressure, guessing the "mode 1" setting, and mode 2 sets the transfer current.

So I was wrong, it is pretty much like an ordinary plasma welder just with a liquid consumable gas.

Just Bob Again
06-15-2011, 06:33 AM
I found the patent for it. US Patent 6087616.


Patent 1892325 (1932) "Means for converting the electric arc into an elongated flame". Inject steam into the arc and make something that looks like a flame. They've improved the technology but the basic idea is old and there are lots of similar patents.

I don't know why the multiplaz people try so hard to hide what this thing really is. Maybe they think more people will buy it if they think it's really new and it's magic. Makes me less likely to consider it. Anyway, it costs like 2 grand. Having to drop the torch in a bucket of water when you're done doesn't inspire my confidence.

Black_Moons
06-15-2011, 06:35 AM
So how good is vaporised water/alcohol as a shielding gas anyway?

Black Forest
06-15-2011, 09:02 AM
So what happened to EcoWelder? He said he would answer questions. He never came back.

I wonder why he doesn't come on here and clear up some of the mystery.

Does snake oil salesman come to mind?

PTSideshow
06-15-2011, 09:43 AM
He was violating the no selling/spam policy, and the first eco welder was a women working as a spammer type joining forums and posting their addy and facebook pages.

It was originally from Mother Russia by way of China,
the following is from a guy in OZ that bought one and is trying to figure out if it is worth it and if he should sell all his other equipment. He is on a welding forum and been posting a running account of his use of it.


The fact that I am able to do the welding so far using just the 240 volt 10 amp supply is quite an eye opener as the unit is designed to go 15 amps.

The jury is still out on the Tig mode for lighter work, and I haven't had a test for alluminium or stainless yet.....coming next time.

If'n I can get the unit to do credible welds on Ally and stainless I'll seriously consider selling up the other units.

I'll post some more as soon as I get some more done....so far it's 7/10 in favour of the transition.


At this moment in time I'd have to say that doing delicate work like thin steel plate or alluminium and stainless is going to take a bit more practice to get the method right....early days yet, so no letting the Tig, Mig, Stick and Argon set-up go for a while yet.
Ian.

PTSideshow
06-28-2011, 07:13 PM
For any that may find a complete manual of the multiplaz 3500 in downloadable PDF click on the manual icon (http://www.multiplaz.com/manual)

And for additional info those that have a subscription to the home shop machinist magazine, and have received the current issue the distributor in Cal is an advertiser in the magazine.

My widget for the country of origin for my browser shows that it is from Mother Russian Federation ,Ip 194.190.200.142

So it is from Russia by way of China

EcoWelder
09-17-2011, 04:39 PM
Hi guys,

I am sorry I've been very busy recently. I just wanted to let you know that I am not some snake oil salesman. EcoWelder is my company and we are specializing in innovative solutions in metalworking. We started out with Multiplaz 3500. Although, I am not an engineer and do not have detailed information on the operational process of Multiplaz 3500 I personally know the developers of this product. Here is my suggestion: please list me all of the question you have to this date and I will forward them to the engineers who will gladly provide answers and I will post them here.

Also please be advised that we have a blog on facebook where some of our customers posted their feedback in regards to Multiplaz 3500. I recommend anyone interested to visit it.

Best,

EcoWelder


So what happened to EcoWelder? He said he would answer questions. He never came back.

I wonder why he doesn't come on here and clear up some of the mystery.

Does snake oil salesman come to mind?

EddyCurr
09-17-2011, 04:58 PM
There was some discussion on WeldingWeb (http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=56610&page=2) during the summer. WW Member
soutthpaw has some comments in post #44.

There are some comments from others regarding background of the device.

.

PTSideshow
09-17-2011, 07:59 PM
If you want the straight skinny on the unit from somebody that has one. Bought one and has put it through the claims and gives what appears to be an Honest comments it works good on heavy thick stuff the thin delicate not so good. multi plaz (http://www.hobartwelders.com/weldtalk/showthread.php?t=41524)

And why do you keep trying to say this is something new Ecowelder the previous version of the it was on the web for about ten years I know I have had a bookmark about it for at least 7 years that I can find.

This model may be a new version