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garagemark
03-05-2011, 05:48 PM
Is there a "proper" way to pull a lug stud in for automobiles wheels? I feel like I'm about to explode a stud by just cranking the hell out of it (with an impact wrench). I need to do three of them for my daughter's car tonight.

PixMan
03-05-2011, 06:09 PM
Haven't done it in years, but pulling them through using a lug nut (upside down) and a air-powered impact wrench is how we did it.

mike4
03-05-2011, 06:57 PM
Haven't done it in years, but pulling them through using a lug nut (upside down) and a air-powered impact wrench is how we did it.
Ditto ,but I have one suggestion.
Place a heavy washer under the nut before using the impact gun , stops marring the hub.
Michael

Carld
03-05-2011, 07:07 PM
You can use a heavy duty C clamp and a deep impact socket to install them if your uncomfortable using an impact wrench.

jimmstruk
03-05-2011, 07:20 PM
Also, coat the threads and friction points of the nut and heavy washer with anti sieze compound. JIM

sasquatch
03-05-2011, 08:22 PM
I agree with Jim above,,, i clean out the hole best i can to get rid of rust,then either antisieze or even #90 gear oil in the hole, then pull the stud through with a thick washer, if it,s a bit too snug,, tap the head on the back while cranking it through.

Sad that most automotive stuff like this and a lot of other things are ALWAYS put together dry, time is money as they say.

I believe good consientious mechanics i,ve seen usually will put some type of lube on parts they,re sticking back together.

boslab
03-05-2011, 08:25 PM
pour boiling water over the hub just before insertion, helps a bit, have warmed with a lamp but not recomended, you can refrigerate the studs too for a little more clearance
mark

saltmine
03-05-2011, 08:41 PM
Pulling the stud into the flange is the accepted method.

I like to employ a Torrington thrust bearing I salvaged from a stripped out A/C tool. That....and a good impact wrench will get the job done in nothing flat.

BTW, a lot of guys I used to work with had cheap impact wrenches, and, insted of torqueing the nut down, they just hammered away at them.
An impact wrench, operating on low air pressure isn't going to do you any good pulling studs into a hub. A healthy 1/2" drive ratchet or breaker-bar will sometimes get the job done faster than a weak air wrench...

garagemark
03-06-2011, 12:49 PM
Thanks once again for your support and suggestions. I had never seen any type of lubricant used on the studs, but a little shot of anti-seize and they pulled right in.

Mark

PixMan
03-06-2011, 02:48 PM
Me, I wouldn't have used any anti-seize compound there. That one place where I actually want the thing to be permanently seized on there.

vpt
03-06-2011, 04:10 PM
The 'correct' way is to pull the hub and press the stud in. Second best is the C-clamp idea (they make a special tool similar to the C-clamp). Third option is a 1/2" spacer with an 'extra' nut to pull the stud in. The nuts do get damaged doing this so I only recomend a spare nut for this. Just buy 1 extra nut when getting the studs. Use a good grease like moly lube on the threads and where the nut makes contact to the spacer, you can also put some on the studs where they press into the hub to help them slide in.


Is this on the front or rear of the car? FWD car? If it is on the front of a front wheel drive car you may need to pull the hub anyhow because the studs won't clear the bearing housing/CV joint cup. < Most cars.

garagemark
03-06-2011, 06:58 PM
I assure you all that these studs, even with a little shot of anti seize, are NOT going anywhere. They are still quite tight.

You are also right, the studs will not come out without pulling the hub AND disassembling the bearing housing. So I cheated. I ground out a place where the adjuster rubber sits in the cover so the studs would go in and out. Since this is on one of my cars, I'm not real worried about it. I just made a larger rubber grommet to cover the extra size hole.

All is well again.

J. Randall
03-06-2011, 09:42 PM
I have put a lot of them in with a good 1/2 impact wrench,and a little anti-seize on the threads. Never saw the need for any lube on the splines of the stud. With a good impact you can feel when the stud seats. I never used it, but I like the bearing idea.
James

ietech
03-06-2011, 10:04 PM
Me, I wouldn't have used any anti-seize compound there. That one place where I actually want the thing to be permanently seized on there.

You got that right - I also want no anti sieze where sieze is critical. A little WD 40 wouldn't hurt as WD will go away in a short time, anti sieze is there for a LONG time.

Heating the hub freezing the stud is a great help for installing them as someone mentioned in a previous post.

Willy
03-06-2011, 10:29 PM
I would not say that anti seize is an issue on the splines or knurls of an assembly that is essentially pressed into the hub. It's not going anywhere as long as the wheel nuts are properly torqued. But a little oil or grease used as a lubricant is probably safer.

Why safer?
Because you do not want to get any anti seize on the nut or the threads of the stud.

There have been a large number of high profile incidents and fatalities the last few years because of wheel-offs on commercial trucks.
Improper mounting procedures were the main issue in most of these cases, and the use of anti seize was a very real cause, (direct and indirect) in many of the studies done on the subject by various agencies across North America.

No studies have been done that I'm aware of on passenger vehicles, but every well trained tire tech that I've talked to cringes at the mention of anti seize on wheel mounting hardware...can't say I blame them after reading some of the studies.

kf2qd
03-06-2011, 10:44 PM
Broken wheel studs are caused by overtorquing. Either by OVERTIGHTENING (stretching), or by excessive tourque caused by poor lubrication. I have always used NeverSieze on lug bolts and I hand torque them and have never had one fail or come loose.

lug nuts that come off are caused by under-torquing, which can also be caused by improper procedures. (I would love to know the pay level of the last mechanic before the failures...)

I dare say that improper torquing (side by side pattern rather than a proper cross pattern) was probably more to blame than the lube. In most torquing specs there is always a spec for the lube so that you are tensioning the bolt and not just twisting it.

kc5ezc
03-06-2011, 11:14 PM
I always retorque the nuts after my tire store mounts the tires. They use 80 ftlb on all cars (according to them). My GMC specifies 100ftlb.
Is it enough to cause a problem? I do not know. I just go around and retorque to 100ftlb. Hopefully the torque wrench is only + or - 5 percent or so.

dhammer
03-06-2011, 11:43 PM
I don't think that you are supposed to lubricate or use anti seize on wheel nuts. Something about lubricant distorting torque specs. However, I worked in a tire shop for more years than I care to think of and I most always oiled the studs.

airsmith282
03-07-2011, 09:43 AM
lubbing wheel studs not a good idea at all very nasty when they work lose .. there are some areas you just dont lube and thats one of them ..

how ever one of the better ways to intstall new studs make a spacer and use and impact to seat them in place pretty easy and fast and gets it done just make sure they seat properly dont want that to work lose while driving to do a finel seat on ya make sure its seated good first..

Iraiam
03-07-2011, 10:19 AM
A properly torqued lug nut is not going to come off. A dry nut will give a less accurate torque than one that is lubed, due to friction where the nut contacts the wheel. A little lube reduces this friction and helps ensure accurate torque readings ON THE THREADS.

It is a standard accepted procedure to lube nuts, bolts, and threads before torquing, whether it be on the inside of an 8 cylinder engine, wheel lug, or a multi-million dollar industrial machine.

Carld
03-07-2011, 10:22 AM
It is perfectly ok to lube the threads on wheel studs. While it does make the torque higher with the same torque wrench setting than a dry thread it will not cause the nut to come loose or damage the nut or thread in any way.

Those that really torque lug nuts are in the minority so the reason they come loose is probably because they weren't tight in the first place.

The advantage is the nuts do not rust to the stud and are easier to remove when you need to change the tire.

There are many bolts in vehicles that are lubed when installed and they don't come loose because of the oil so why does anyone thing the lug nuts will come loose because of being lubed with oil or anti seize. It just won't happen.

Arcane
03-07-2011, 10:31 AM
A friend of mine runs a garage. He's good at his profession, too, one of the very best. He ALWAYS lubes wheel studs whenever he R&R a wheel and uses a torque wrench every time to tighten the nuts. He has never had a problem with any that he has done that way and he has quite literally done thousands over his career.

One day when I stopped in to see him, he was removing a wheel on a particular car. It was obvious none of the wheel nuts or studs had ever been lubed and several nuts were galling as he tried to remove them. A couple of them he was lucky to get backed off enough to get a little lube on the threads on both sides of the nuts, then by carefully working the nuts back and forth, he managed to work the lube into the nuts far enough that they came off. I seriously doubt if the typical car owner could have gotten the wheel off or not have snapped off the studs if they had a flat.

Here's a site that lists the torque values for various bolts, both for dry and oiled. Notice at the bottom in the BOLT TORQUE FACTORS, cadmium and zinc plating changes the torque value as much as oil changes it.

http://www.raskcycle.com/techtip/webdoc14.html

bborr01
03-07-2011, 10:39 AM
I always use lube (motor oil) on wheel studs and have never had a wheel fall off or loose studs.

That being said, I don't use oil where the lugnut contacts the wheel.

One other thing. It is a good idea to re-torque the lugnuts after you drive the vehicle for a little while. Sometimes after the wheel seats on the hub, the torque will drop a little bit.

Brian

edit to add: For seating studs, flip the lugnut over and use an impact to seat it without the wheel on the spindle. Use oil on threads and on face of lugnut.

Willy
03-07-2011, 03:21 PM
I suppose that the anti seize on wheel stud issue will drag on as long as the Imperial/Metric debate. Everyone will of course offer anecdotal evidence to support their viewpoint.
This is all fine with me as I'm not here to turn the world around. Just some food for thought the next time you reach for the can of anti seize.

For over 25 years of my 40 year professional driving career I too subscribed to the use of anti seize on wheel studs, without one single issue.
I also drove for many of those years without a seatbelt without incident. But as one lives and learns by the observation and experience of others, he soon learns that he would be a fool if he continued on the same path that contributed to the peril of others.

My experiences are based strictly on commercial applications since these scenarios are usually heavily regulated and open to some very expensive litigation. So take this as a suggestion to alternate methods, not as an edict that heads are going to roll at the first signs of anti seize on your wheel studs.:D

Below is a quote from a Tire Industry Association newsletter aimed at the commercial tire industry, I've seen many like this. I used this one only because it was convenient.

http://www.alatiredealers.com/newsletters/E-mail%20Versions/Newsletter-Sept09.pdf

Page 6:


TIA Offers Four Tips That Commercial Vehicle Operators Can Use To
Help Prevent Potentially Deadly Wheel-Off Accidents

Bowie, MD - Bowie, MD - What do a pregnant woman from Maryland, a 48 year-old man from Ontario, and a driver in Seattle have in common? They are all victims of truck wheel-offs; a truck wheel flew off on the highway and struck their vehicles. Both the Ontario man and the Seattle driver were lucky- they survived. But, the woman from Maryland was killed. The Tire Industry Association (TIA), one of the leading global authorities on commercial tires and tire service training, reminds all commercial vehicle operators that improper installation procedures can lead to very tragic results similar to these.

Thus, TIA offers the following four tips that every commercial vehicle operator should keep in mind:
1. Proper torque in and of itself is not a guarantee that the wheel is secure on the hub or drum - the key is
clamping force. Tire technicians must be trained to ensure that the wheel and hub are properly cleaned
and that the wheel and fasteners are inspected before it is installed. Even with the correct torque,
foreign material on the mating surfaces and worn threads will still cause a wheel to become loose.


2. Use the proper wheel fastener lubricants (30-weight oil on the stud and flange nut for hub-piloted
wheels and dry for stud-pilot).

3. DO NOT use anti-seize compounds on stud-piloted wheels. This use has never been approved by
wheel, hub or fastener manufacturers.

4. Wheel fastener torque should always be checked after the first 50 to 100 miles.

"There are plenty of myths and outright falsehoods floating around repair shops - such as using anti-seize
compounds as wheel lubricants - which only help to perpetuate the phenomenon of wheel-offs," said TIA
Senior Vice President of Training Kevin Rohlwing. "It's important that tire technicians receive the proper
training to look at all aspects of clamping force - not just proper wheel torque - in order to ensure a wheel does
not come off and create the potential for serious injury, or even death out on the roads."



And another article aimed at the commercial truck industry on the use of anti seize.

http://fleetowner.com/equipment/tiretracks/fleet_debunking_myth/index.html

So please read these if your mind is not closed and use it to your advantage, and if you still think I'm being foolish for not using anti seize, don't forget I'm not alone.

Edited to eliminate a double quote.

Forestgnome
03-07-2011, 06:00 PM
I use a stack of washers with everything lubed up with moly grease. The stack of washers acts as a bearing and the grease really lowers the force needed.

Bob Farr
03-07-2011, 08:51 PM
Maybe these pictures will help spawn an idea. My Grandfather worked at Budd wheel for most of his life. Among his belongings which passed to me was this tool, which I believe was for installing and/or removing wheel studs. It is marked "Budd" and "right."

Good luck,

Bob

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g272/frankenglide/Lugnuttool3.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g272/frankenglide/Lugnuttool2.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g272/frankenglide/Lugnuttool1.jpg

Arcane
03-07-2011, 09:03 PM
Those aren't tools, they are Budd wheel nuts. The one on the left screws on the stud and holds the inner wheel on and then the nut on the right holds the outer wheel on.

Bob Farr
03-07-2011, 09:08 PM
Those aren't tools ***

Thanks for the ID Arcane, they've always been a bit of a mystery to me.

Bob

Willy
03-07-2011, 09:11 PM
Bob, the items in the photos you post are for mounting dual Budd type wheels.
The stud, not shown, protrudes out of the hub, much like a stud on a regular car only longer.
The long nut with inner and outer threads holds the inside wheel to the hub's face, the second wheel goes on next to be held by the short nut.
Hope this clears things up.

Edited to add...I'm too slow!

J. Randall
03-07-2011, 09:32 PM
Willy, in a past life I worked in dealerships, independent shops, and maintained a fleet of vehicles for an oil co. I always used anti-seize on the studs, from passenger vehicles on up to the big stuff, and never had a wheeloff. The seatbelt analogy is pretty lame. I suspect those studies and opinions have more to do with lawyers and lawsuits than anything else. I suppose in the end your opinion or mine is not going to make much difference. I will probably continue to use it with confidence on my own vehicles, and others won't. If properly installed, it is not likely that those in either camp will lose any wheels.
James

Willy
03-07-2011, 09:53 PM
Fair enough James, as I said previously I'm not here to turn the world around, but I do like to learn from the experience of others.
The industry opinion is on my side on this issue, not my previous experience or yours, but the experience of countless thousands of others.

Chances are you could carry on for five lifetimes and not have an issue...but the odds would be better if you followed the industry's recommendations.

While you opinion of my seatbelt analogy being lame may have merit, this quote of yours certainly doesn't hold a lot of water either.



Originally Posted by J Randall
I suspect those studies and opinions have more to do with lawyers and lawsuits than anything else.

Carld
03-07-2011, 10:57 PM
Having used anti seize or oil for years on almost every thread I have never had a problem of them coming loose. I will say that the anti seize will let you remove the nut long after the oil goes away and they rust together.

It's probably just a case of no long term tests by the "government agency" that sets the regulations more than anything else.

SVS
03-08-2011, 12:39 AM
Went to the link and I guess I ended up with the vague feeling I always get after reading instructions written lowest common denominator style.

I see the point but question the logic, and since it's written for dumbest guy in the shop it doesn't really explain why at a satisfying level.

The explanation that antiseize might allow you to remove and then reinstall hardware that you actually should have ruined and tossed was the worst, and I'm not convinced the writer understands the interrelationship of torque, lube, and tension.

Anyway Willy, thanks for the link, I'll ease up on the semi trucks, but the stuff that plays in the soup is gonna get a double dose.

mike4
03-08-2011, 01:36 AM
Went to the link and I guess I ended up with the vague feeling I always get after reading instructions written lowest common denominator style.

I see the point but question the logic, and since it's written for dumbest guy in the shop it doesn't really explain why at a satisfying level.

The explanation that antiseize might allow you to remove and then reinstall hardware that you actually should have ruined and tossed was the worst, and I'm not convinced the writer understands the interrelationship of torque, lube, and tension.

Anyway Willy, thanks for the link, I'll ease up on the semi trucks, but the stuff that plays in the soup is gonna get a double dose.

I read the links also and will still use neverseize on my wheel studs.

I have noticed that most people do not ever look at or check their wheel nuts , a few minutes once a week will save you from most of the expensive issues which have been outlined in many of the previous posts.

There seems to be a gradual dumbing down of the general population when it comes to simple vehicle maintenance ,much of it appears to be caused by stupid acts or ignorance of simple things.

I have been told that I cant change my own tyres on a mine site as I am not a tyre technician , what a load of BS, I would trust my own methods more than those used by some of the uncaring people who often over torque nuts leading to studs snapping while driving ,neverseize or not.

Michael

dhammer
03-08-2011, 03:19 AM
I would trust my own methods more than those used by some of the uncaring people who often over torque nuts leading to studs snapping while driving ,neverseize or not.

Michael

Don't know if I'd call them uncaring..more like lazy. Most tire "techicans" I've run across don't want to take the effort to hand torque Budd wheel nuts..so they use a one inch drive impact with 200 psi in the air compressor and rattle the heck out of everything.

As far as anti seize on semi tires. All commercial vehicles have to be inspected by a licensed DOT technican. If that inspected vehicle has a serious accident the DOT is required to inspect said vehicle..any evidence of anti seize on wheel studs and the tech is in big doo doo..he failed to follow industry standards.

Carld
03-08-2011, 08:06 AM
"People don't check their lug nuts". Hell, people don't check anything on their car, tire pressure, oil, water, etc. The only thing most drivers check is the key in the ignition, the brakes when they stop, the headlights at night and the steering when they make turns. I have got out at stop lights and told drivers they have no brake lights or tail lights many times. Have you ever looked at tires as you drive on the highway, many of them are running on low air and some near flat.

EDIT: I searched a lot of sites about anti seize on wheel studs and the biggest issue was the anti seize can cause over torquing of the lug nut and possible failure of the stud. I could not find a site with Federal DOT regulations on it, they want to sell the book to you, not let you read it.

jimmstruk
03-08-2011, 08:54 AM
Willy posted an article from TIA stating that the clamping force is of utmost importantce. Mating surfaces must be clean. Did any one of you ever see a technician use a wire brush on the inside seating surface of a wheel? Did the tech then wire brush arount the studs and the mating surface of the hub or axle flange? Dissimiliar metals cause excessive corrosion and must be cleaned up before remounting a wheel. There several reasons why wheels loosen. JIM

vpt
03-08-2011, 09:02 AM
I hate snti seize! Messy! Just a few weeks ago a guy brought a car in to me with a broken wheel stud, guess what, every stud was covered with anti seize.

I only use motor oil on studs if anything at all. I only use the moly grease to pull studs in and then they get cleaned off.

Anyone can use anything and "not have problems all their life" but it may not be correct.

Anti seize dries out and turns into a paste impossible to clean mess. I have seen people use anti sieze on exhaust where it actually dried, cured, and hardened the bolt in.

If that anti sieze gets in between the wheel and rotor you WILL have problems. It is not worth the risk or the mess! Just use a drop of motor oil on the threads if you must use anything.

Willy
03-08-2011, 09:51 AM
I have always used anti seize without incident, hell I love the stuff as much as the next guy and still do use it, but not on wheel studs anymore, just oil.
The stuff works great...maybe too well. I realize that I'm probably preaching to the choir here as most here can grasp the concept of exceeding yield strength.

Thats the issue with anti seize, it has been shown that when used in this application, wheel torques that should be at a level of about 450-500 ft. lbs., are in effect being torqued to 700- 1000 ft. lbs. At this level the studs are beyond their yield strength. Instead of the stud clamping the the wheel, it is actually loose because it has lost it's ability to stretch, and/or just about to break when subjected to heavy loads.

This isn't a problem when you or I conscientiously use it, we compensate for the reduced torque requirement. But how many here have had wheels installed "professionally" only to find later when removing a wheel, that it takes either standing on the end of a flex bar, or a piece of pipe to get the damn thing off?

This is where the problem manifests itself.
Suppose your wife or daughter is using the car, she has a flat and "Pongo" comes down with the service truck, changes the wheel, and proceeds to rattle it on with his impact till the nuts have just about stopped turning, because "Pongo" wants to make sure they are good and tight.
You and I know that those studs are toast.
This is one of the main reasons that the use of anti seize is not recommended on commercial truck studs...too many "Pongos" out there with 1" impacts capable of 1600 ft. lbs. of torque!


Interesting sideline here. About 15 miles down the road we have a sharp uphill turn where truckers tend to enter the curve a little too fast as they come off of the highway. This curve puts a lot of strain on one of the steering axle wheels. About ten years ago I noticed a broken wheel stud laying on the side of the road on this corner, I decided to return in my car later to pick it up and found it had an application of anti seize on the nut/stud interface. Since then I have found at least a half dozen more all the same. Coincidence perhaps but I think not.

Carld
03-08-2011, 01:03 PM
I agree that anti seize, oil or grease will cause an over torque condition in a lot of cases. It's not what they used on the thread, it's the dumb ass using the tools.

J. Randall
03-08-2011, 10:10 PM
I hate snti seize! Messy! Just a few weeks ago a guy brought a car in to me with a broken wheel stud, guess what, every stud was covered with anti seize.

I only use motor oil on studs if anything at all. I only use the moly grease to pull studs in and then they get cleaned off.

Anyone can use anything and "not have problems all their life" but it may not be correct.

Anti seize dries out and turns into a paste impossible to clean mess. I have seen people use anti sieze on exhaust where it actually dried, cured, and hardened the bolt in.

If that anti sieze gets in between the wheel and rotor you WILL have problems. It is not worth the risk or the mess! Just use a drop of motor oil on the threads if you must use anything.

Andy, sounds like the same type of people that use to pack the whole cavity and the dust cover plumb full of wheel bearing grease, back when most front bearings were packable. The amount of anti-seize I have always used on studs is minuscule, you would be hard pressed to find any more than a little residue on the threads upon removal, no chance of there being any between the wheel and rotor the way I use it.
James

Alan in Vermont
03-09-2011, 09:13 PM
lubbing wheel studs not a good idea at all very nasty when they work lose .. there are some areas you just dont lube and thats one of them ..

Yup, I've heard that before but in 40 years or so of dealing with vehicle wheels I have lubed just about every one and never had one loosen. If you tighten them proper they don't loosen, dry or lubed. I also have never had one I could not remove when I needed to. Nor have I ever twisted off a stud because the nut was rusted to it, other than ones installed by a believer in dry wheel studs.

Bill736
03-09-2011, 10:17 PM
Mounting and installing tires and rims seems to be a job that many installers consider a " no brainer", and they rush the job as much as possible. But, there are no jobs on a motor vehicle that are really " no brainers" , and any job can be done poorly and result in problems. Slow leaks can result from not cleaning a tire and rim bead sealing surface before mounting. Rarely do I see a mechanic clean the hub or drum surface and mating rim surface with a wire brush before installing the rim. Often lug nuts are so overtightened with heavy handed impact wrenches that removing the lug nuts is difficult, and the threads are galled. I personally use a light spray of WD-40 on lug nuts and studs before mounting. It seems to be just right to allow a secure tightening of the lug nut, without creating excessive lubrication or drips onto a braking surface. Most of the WD-40 will soon evaporate . And here's where many mechanics will disagree with me. I don't use a torque wrench to tighten lug nuts on passenger cars. (I don't use an impact wrench either.) I found that I lose my " feel" if I use a long handled torque wrench. If the nut or stud is stripped, I may not pick that up using a torque wrench. So, I always use the same fairly short 1/2 inch hand ratchet wrench to tighten lug nuts, and rely on experience and a sense of feel to tighten them. If there's something wrong, I can feel it easily. I've checked my " feel" with torque wrenches now and then, and I'm still using an appropriate torque . True, I don't use "feel" to tighten cylinder head bolts, but for lug nuts I'm more comfortable doing it that way.

Carld
03-09-2011, 11:53 PM
I agree with you Bill. After you have wrenched for a while and are aware of things and use a torque wrench you begin to get a feel for the right torque on a bolt. There were may bolts and nuts I never used a torque wrench on but I always used a torque wrench on rod bolts, main bolts and head bolts.

I have a long 1/2" break over bar that I used for lug nuts on things up to 1" and bigger than that I had a 3/4" break over that I used. When I put tires on semi trucks or trailers I used an impact to remove and install the nuts and then checked them with a the 3/4" bar. After I had used a torque wrench to find the feel it was easy to get real close.

No wheels I installed ever came off.

The old wedge type wheels were a pain in the butt to get straight and tight.

Willy
03-10-2011, 12:16 AM
The old wedge type wheels were a pain in the butt to get straight and tight.

Ain't that the truth...probably the main reason that the old Dayton type wheel has lost favor.;)