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View Full Version : Semi OT: How old should children be before helping in the shop.



Rookie machinist
03-05-2011, 08:22 PM
How old have your children been before you allowed them to help out in the shop. Me and the ex-wife are in a little feud about me allowing our 6 year old girl to make a single weld between 2 pieces of 1x1x1/8" AL tube. I had her in full leathers and a shade 14 hood. We were using my mig set-up with a spool gun. She stood in front of me holding the gun while I guided her on the weld. The ex is going to bring this up in court saying it was wreckless and unsafe. While I see it as a good father/daughter bonding moment. Is 6 too young for the kids to assist while being supervised?

sasquatch
03-05-2011, 08:41 PM
I think much depends on the ability and advancement of the child.
The weld part i see nothing wrong with, as long as you say she was properly protected.
By 5-6 my kids were involved in a lot of projects, little ones that they could comprehend and feel a sense of accomplishment at, either finishing something or helping to finish something.
So much stupidity today is restricting kids ability to learn things, and develop good motor skills.
My 8 year old grandson right now is workin in my son inlaws shop helping him do the brakes etc on a tractor trailer, this kid is learning, taking an interest in mechanical things, and knowing what tools are for,besides learning the tool sizes etc, stuff like that. He now has his own small set of tools, wrenches, sockets, etc and his own tool box, knows what an impact is, just a bunch of things a lot of kids today get no chance to learn.
So many kids today even in their teens have no idea on how to thread a nut on a bolt even, being raised on cartoons etc.
I applaud anyone taking the time to work with a kid to get them interested in things they will need to know in the future.
Those kids will remember those moments, and treasure them as they age.

mickeyf
03-05-2011, 08:42 PM
Like so many things, there is no single "age" which is "correct". The question is whether the particular child understands that there is potential danger, and will do as they are told when they are told, not what they please when they please. There are 6 year olds in both camps.

PeteF
03-05-2011, 08:44 PM
Cripes I hope not! My daughter is 19 months and can't wait to see "Dad-Dad" in the workshop. She particularly likes to take all the sockets out of their case and stack them up like building blocks. Of course while all this is going on I get basically nothing done, but I think it's great and hope she shows some interest in learning how to at least do basic repairs as she progresses through life. Good on you for taking the time I say.

On the other hand I'm sorry to hear your ex is going down that path. It sucks for everyone. Just keep in mind you're trying to psychologically build, she's trying to destroy. Maybe the thought will help you keep your chin up through the whole process as there's no "winners" once it's over, just a lot more damage.

Pete

Black_Moons
03-05-2011, 08:45 PM
Welding? Seems safe enough to me. Worse case, a tiny burn. Whoopie do. Know how many of those I got as a kid playing alone? All healed without scars but one.

Id give the kid an autodark helmet, cranked up to higher shade, Gloves, And maybe those shoe covers. Thats all you need for safe welding. And come on, its Mig, If exhaust repairmen can do it, any 6 year old can. :)

Really. Mig is very safe, Theres not enough voltage for electrocution, the heat is extremely localised, And as long as you wear gloves, Not for welding, But for the stupid things you do 15 seconds after welding (Gee it stoped glowing, Must be safe to grab now right??), Its safe. Lots of funny dancing if you don't wear the shoe covers though.

Iv seen people welding and grinding just 7' away from thier fully unprotected children, Felt like going up and telling the guy 'I don't care that you don't wanna wear safty glasses while operating an angle grinder, But put some on your kid or tell em to play elsewhere!'

Rich Carlstedt
03-05-2011, 08:51 PM
Well at age eight, I was shooting firearms..under supervision
Had my grandaughter in the shop at six doing things.
At age 8 she was cutting blocks on the bandsaw and always worn protection

sasquatch
03-05-2011, 09:00 PM
One thing i forgot to mention whether the kids in a shop or the home,, is to be taught and get the message about "On and OFF" on switches, along with the dire circumstances that can happen by turning machines on out of curiosity. Show the kid what each switch does and what the machine does and what it,s for, this i found eliminated that desire to "Push" that start button.

h12721
03-05-2011, 09:08 PM
Hi Roockie,

It is not what You or your EX think, it is what the Judge thinks.

I had the Grandchild in the shop at age 4.

Rookie machinist
03-05-2011, 09:57 PM
I wonder what the judge will think, my first court date is coming up and this divorce has been bitter to say the least. It happened in my home shop where my little girl always asked to help on projects. She is very mature and listens well. I thought it was a great expierence and she was extremely proud of what she had made, just sad it has been turned into a negative.

cuemaker
03-05-2011, 10:05 PM
Hi Roockie,

It is not what You or your EX think, it is what the Judge thinks.

I had the Grandchild in the shop at age 4.

EXACTLY... my fear would be that the judge thinks like the ex wife.....

But I had my 9yr in the shop turning the handles on my friends Bridgeport and working the power feed while I did set up and during a run of parts (damn I wish I had a mill)


Edit to add my experience: My wifes ex dragged us to court over who was watching the boy after school, the church he was attending and some other minor issue I dont remember at this instant..... My wifes sister was watching the boy after school, she's a lesbian and he had a problem with the Baptist church that he and my in laws attended.

While him dragging us to court for full custody based on these issue was completely stupid, I still had to pay a good lawyer $1700 to deal with it....

Plenty of other ways to bond with your kid.. Pick one that is a easier for Sheeple to accept.

Black_Moons
03-05-2011, 10:22 PM
Well at age eight, I was shooting firearms..under supervision
Had my grandaughter in the shop at six doing things.
At age 8 she was cutting blocks on the bandsaw and always worn protection

Gotta say thats a little scary, the bandsaw can remove fingers faster then they know what happened, It only takes a second of distraction...

wierdscience
03-05-2011, 10:36 PM
I wonder what the judge will think, my first court date is coming up and this divorce has been bitter to say the least. It happened in my home shop where my little girl always asked to help on projects. She is very mature and listens well. I thought it was a great expierence and she was extremely proud of what she had made, just sad it has been turned into a negative.

I would ask him which is more dangerous,at home with Dad learning how to weld,or a few years down the road copying Lindsey Lohan God forbid?

I also think anyone who would question careful parental supervised shop work as somehow poor parenting is off a little in the head.

One thing good though is no matter what Mom or the Judge says she will always remember you spending time with her doing something neat.

rebel54
03-05-2011, 10:41 PM
My son was 4 when he came to the shop. He is still there at age 28. He was using a mic and welding before age 8 and learn cad around 9 years old.

PeteF
03-05-2011, 11:09 PM
Before you even mentioned it was a bitter battle I'd basically already come to that conclusion just with the small amount you mentioned. It's probably little consolation under the circumstances, but here's my take on it. I strongly suggest the whole thing has very little to do with your ex-wife's concern about your child's welfare and a heck of a lot more to do with the fact that your daughter subsequently went back to your wife and raved about what a great time she had with her Dad; kids being kids it's possibly up there as one of the highlights of her life.

Slightly OT but with regards children's safety in the workshop, my little girl isn't allowed to go in there unless I'm there. I'll then pretty much stop what I'm doing and watch what she does. It would only take my back turned for a moment for something really nasty to happen. Having said that, again children being children, I know she will want to go in there when I'm not around. So I installed an isolation switch on the electrical feed to the whole workshop and the only person other than myself who knows about it is my wife. When I enter the workshop in the morning I flick the master power switch on, and when I walk out at night I flick it off along with the lights.

Carld
03-05-2011, 11:57 PM
Rookie, I suggest you take what she made to court with you and explain how it all went. Some photo's of your shop may help. You wifes extreme behavior may be in your favor.

When I had a lawn mower shop in the early 1970's my two sons were 5 and 6 and sometimes stayed all day with me at the shop. I let them tear down old engines, clean the shop and other things. Of course I had to keep an eye on them and sometimes separate them but they never got hurt and today each one has his own home shop and projects.

It worked for us.

derekm
03-06-2011, 05:26 AM
the young can develop skills very fast.

My niece at the age of nine steered a good course with 36 foot yacht in a force 6-7 in heavy seas very well indeed. Her brother and mother were very sea sick and she was bored. So I thought give her a go at steering (wheel). I stood behind her(hanging on to the backstay) so I could see the compass and talk to her and catch mistakes. But within 5 to 10 minutes she had got it.

gda
03-06-2011, 07:55 AM
My son started in the shop with me at 4 putting bolts in things (he would also tie pipe cleaners to things under the cars when they were up on stands (he has his own creeper). When he was 5 we built him a go-kart together. At 6 he has his own little benchtop delta drill press that we use TOGETHER on small projects. I also let him pull the quill on the bridgeport if I'm just drilling holes or catch the parts off the horizontal band saw if they are light and long. I'm always by his side and I bought him a pair of the safety glasses with the foam around them for extra protection.

People fear what they don't know, and pictures speak a 1000 words. You may want to bring pictures of your shop and safety gear - and explain that most people don't even own leathers.

Maybe print out this thread.

Dr Stan
03-06-2011, 09:51 AM
Maybe print out this thread.

Exactly what I was going to recommend. Print it out and give it to your attorney. I wish you well as I too went through a divorce from hell and it sure wasn't good for the kids, but she will never admit that her behavior had anything to do with it.

Gravy
03-06-2011, 10:06 AM
If the ex thinks small-scale MIG welding is too dangerous, I presume she does not permit the girl to approach her birthday cake? Those 6 candles could cause some nasty burns!:rolleyes:

Alistair Hosie
03-06-2011, 10:12 AM
I wouldn't let children weld serious burns can be caused by this and regards other machinery well they should be at least nine or ten maybe even eleven before doing anything even with full suopervision sorry but I cannot be too sureso better be safe . Alistair

tlfamm
03-06-2011, 10:15 AM
If the ex thinks small-scale MIG welding is too dangerous, I presume she does not permit the girl to approach her birthday cake? Those 6 candles could cause some nasty burns!:rolleyes:


Not to mention allowing her to run the mixer and make the cake - I imagine that something like a KitchedAid mixer could inflict serious injury to, if not outright amputation of, a finger.

PixMan
03-06-2011, 10:19 AM
I faced a similar situation with my youngest son, though it didn't involve a divorce as I'm still married to the only girl I ever married over 31 years ago.

In my case, it was many people frowning upon my 8 year-old son riding on the back of my motorcycle. He & I put over 11,000 miles on my bike together over a 3 year period (I rode the other 38,000 miles alone.) During that time, I had a number of people comment that he was too young and it was too dangerous to ride with him.

FWIW, he rode with the same level of riding gear that I always do: Amoured leather pants, jacket, gloves and boots, and a quality (Arai) full coverage helmet. By the time he was 12, he sprouted up enough that until we took the helmets off, most people thought I was a young guy riding around with my cute little girlfriend. :D By the time he was 13, he was too big to cart around.

Yes, there are risks in doing these activities. There are risks in many activities that children are encouraged to participate, from crossing the street to riding unrestricted on a school bus to football to the most dangerous activity of all: youth baseball. However, we take all the possible steps to reduce the risks to a minimum and still enjoy the time together. Today my son is 21 and he reminds me often of how much he enjoyed riding with me. I am certain your daughter will feel the same way for the time spent enjoying a safe activity together.

I wish you well in this little battle, though I'm sure that the time spent together wins the war no matter what happens.

lazlo
03-06-2011, 10:37 AM
How old have your children been before you allowed them to help out in the shop. Me and the ex-wife are in a little feud about me allowing our 6 year old girl to make a single weld between 2 pieces of 1x1x1/8" AL tube.

I've posted several pictures of my daughter helping out in the shop since she was 5. I taught her to MIG weld when she was 7. I've been meaning to post a thread about it...

She's really feeding the table here -- (I can't remember what the project was)...

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/Bandsaw%20Feet/IMG_2545.png

lazlo
03-06-2011, 10:41 AM
At age 8 she was cutting blocks on the bandsaw and always worn protection
Gotta say thats a little scary, the bandsaw can remove fingers faster then they know what happened, It only takes a second of distraction...

I have to agree there -- the drill press and the bandsaw are the #1 and #2 sources of shop injuries. I won't be letting my kids anywhere near them.

I have a little 7x10 mini-lathe that is great for teaching them to turn aluminum.

SteveF
03-06-2011, 10:41 AM
In my case, it was many people frowning upon my 8 year-old son riding on the back of my motorcycle. He & I put over 11,000 miles on my bike together over a 3 year period (I rode the other 38,000 miles alone.) During that time, I had a number of people comment that he was too young and it was too dangerous to ride with him.


On the back? I was out riding and saw a kid, from his size I doubt he was more than 4 years old, wearing full gear on a tiny dirt bike zooming around his yard with a border collie running alongside. Cutest damned thing I've seen. Gave his Dad a thumbs up.

On the other hand, right after Christmas I killed my 15 yo nephew's gift of a wire welder. My brother gave him a welder for Xmas because "he wanted one". My brother's mechanical ability is limited to the ability to generally tell the difference between a standard and phillips screw driver. My nephew, who ain't going to be a rocket scientist one day, said he was going to learn to use the welder by watching videos on YouTube. And the only place he would have to use it is in my brother's crowded basement full of cardboard boxes. After I emailed my brother the safety documents off Miller's web site, he took everything back to the store.

Fully supervised 6 yo with a welder - I don't see a problem.

Steve

loose nut
03-06-2011, 10:48 AM
Children working in a shop is an age old tradition, haven't you ever read Dickin's. Normally you just chain them to the bench and beat them if they don't get their quota done. It's still a practice used in central America and parts of Asia, just ask Cathy Lee Gifford.

But seriously it is a good idea from any normal person, they learn better work ethics and some skills BUT you will definitely loose in court, seen it happen. The know it all child welfare do gooders will beat you to death with it.

Many, many, many years ago when I was in the Canadian navy, if we where sailing somewhere for a few months, this was on a frigate (destroyer escort to Americans), we would take on about 30 sea cadets.

They "officially' where suppose to be at least 16 years old but "unofficially" 14 or 15 was common. The youngest we ever had was 12 (keep it quite, he wasn't suppose to be there). All these kids had to stand watch and work along side of us getting some OJT (on the job training). They usually stood deck watches but sometimes worked in the galley or stood engine room/boiler watches. All of them had to learn to steer the ship even the 12 year old but even giving it his best try he was to small and not strong enough to do it and had to removed from this duty.

By the time we returned home these kids where capable of preforming there tasks as well as most of the younger Seamen and the rest of the crew treated them as such. You have to remember that sailing a ship is a dangerous occupation, at the best of times, lots of things that can hurt you and there is the weather to deal with. Storms nearly did me in more then once but they all made it home with all their finger and toes, they where under supervision just so that they did.

Working along side elders is a time honored tradition, passing along skills from the earliest ages onward. The courts will not see this in a good light, little Johnny might get a sliver.

P.S. once I was detailed 4 of these cadets to go to the cable deck to paint. I gave one of them a can of red paint and told him to redo all the red bits, everything is colour coded on these ships red for port and green for star. Turns out he was colour blind. What a mess.

vpt
03-06-2011, 10:50 AM
Oh jeez, I guess I shouldn't let my 5 YO drive my car around in the back yard any more.

Westline
03-06-2011, 10:54 AM
It's surprising how many posters have girls that work with heavy machines in the shop at a young age. ( I love it ) I'm not a big fan of the It's a man's job type of thinking.
I started taking things apart at age 5 ......repairing things since 7 (mostly the things I broke 2 years ago:D )
I remember sneaking out family Computer into my room to replace the mains On / Off switch at age 8.
I parents did not trust me with those type of jobs at first, but hey I proved I could do it.
At age 14 I was wiring 3 phase connecters and repair all sorts of stuff for my dads neighbours (on my own)
The only rule of thumb is Safety first ( a 3 year old can under stand the the concept of "don't touch that it's hot or thats dangerous")
Everything else is learned out of experience and in today's world you may aswell give your kid a headstart.
I think this thread should be renamed to "Parent of the year Finalists"
My dad told me many years a go "People can take everything from you but your knowledge and experiece is yours forever"

Luke55
03-06-2011, 11:09 AM
It always depend. I beging running farm machinery for my dad at 5 years old.
At the same age my wife was clearing a wood sticker for his dad. My 3 daugthers start working around at the same . We remember it was not always fun when we saw other kids playing around.
Today with all the security rules, suits, childrens rights, etc I keep my grandchilds around for fun, not real working. It help to keep their eyes open and develop their creativity.
On the bad side it will not develop their patience, tolerance for working some hours, satisfaction of doing something rewardable with the group, something to be proud of it later.

roundrocktom
03-06-2011, 11:12 AM
Safety is the key item.

I love it when any of the kids come out to the shop. I appreciate the help, and just fun to have company.

http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee368/Tom_Walter/kate_counter_sink_drill3.jpg

lazlo
03-06-2011, 11:18 AM
Tom, we should get together -- I live over by the Lakeline Mall. Drop me a PM...

gda
03-06-2011, 11:37 AM
Another thing I do every time my son is working in the shop is a safety demonstration with what we will be working with and make sure he gets it.

Paint sticks and small rags make great things to let them see pulled in or mangled on a machine - then ask him what it that was their sleeve or arm. He gets it.

justanengineer
03-06-2011, 12:30 PM
I think you have little to worry about, the judge will likely find this another frivolous matter, especially if he's seen your case before and your wife has a history of silly complaints. As for myself, I started driving (2 sticks and no digging/boom operations) a full size excavator alone at age 4, along with helping my dad with projects in his woodshop. By age 7 I had mastered the excavator completely and had legs long enough to start driving other tractors that necessitated pedal usage. Again, at 7, I started spending odd weekends at the middle and high schools my father taught technology in for 26 years while his Odyssey of the Mind teams worked. I had completely free run of the wood shop to build whatever I wanted using anything and everything - table, scroll and bandsaws, routers, wood lathes etc etc. I built many battery powered cars and other toys for myself, by myself with little supervision. Although I didnt take up automotive or metal hobbies til a few years later, I used "dangerous" machinery almost on a daily basis as a child. Could I have been seriously hurt? Not likely more than now as an adult when I work alone more times than not. Did I lack supervision? My dad was always at most across the room and though he didnt have eyes on me constantly, he knew what I was doing, how I was doing it, and why. He also knew that I would ask him questions if I wasnt positive how to get things done, would do only what I had experience in without him next to me, and would always be as safe as possible in every manner. I lived in fear of getting spanked/swatted or yelled at until my early teens, but by then I could handle the shop entirely and easily by myself.

I think if you explain things simply to the judge, that your daughter knows the consequences/dangers associated with machinery, uses all of the proper PROFESSIONAL safety gear, and is under supervision, they cannot hold it against you for wanting to bond with your children in your own way. Our ability to learn only slows down as we get older, and at that age kids' minds are like sponges for information which we need to nurture in every way possible. My early experiences in the shop led me to become a mechanical engineer, and you can bet in a few years when I have some, my kids will be in the shop as soon as they want to be.

Alistair Hosie
03-06-2011, 12:36 PM
I accept that turning a wheel when dad is watching your every move is not an issue but welding is not for small children sorry my 2 cents.Alistair

danlb
03-06-2011, 01:11 PM
In my mind, the biggest danger in this case is the "just enough knowledge to be dangerous" syndrome.

You've covered that to a large degree with the master power switch. I'd start any testimony / deposition stressing the fact that you have arranged it so that she can NOT use any of the power tools unsupervised.

I agree with the majority. Learning to enjoy shop-work when young is a great character builder.

Side story; My kids grew up seeing me work on my own motorcycles. They had free access to the attached garage. At about 4 years old my older son managed to figure out how to fit a wrench to a bolt and take it off. Since he was short, he chose the bolts that clamped the front axle to the forks. Fortunately, he only managed to remove 1/2 of the bolts, and he (taking after his old man) left the bolts and wrench on the ground next to the bike.

Dan

Arcane
03-06-2011, 01:33 PM
" How old should children be before helping in the shop?"

That question has never been asked by sweat shop owners; they know it's not a matter of age but of physical capability. :D

oil mac
03-06-2011, 02:08 PM
Rookie,
I empathise greatly with you in your on-going dispute with the wife, Never nice, It is most commendable to bond with your youngsters, nowadays so many people, want a youngster, But when it comes to interaction with the kids-- Well we see the consequences every week in juvenile court!

More power to your elbow with your relationship with your little daughter, One wants to nurture that bond, enough to last both your lifetimes

However a word to the wise, A long number of years ago, my five year old son, went in to my workshop, and started up my horizontal milling machine, which had a slitting saw set up, The result was a serious laceration to his right thumb, My blood runs cold thinking of it even yet, I guess he/we got off lucky, With that in mind carefull guys where kids /moving machinery are concerned, The untowards can occur, Fortunately in the postings, any illustration shows the youngsters wearing safety goggles etc.
Should the youngsters be around you all when you are "having a play/interaction session", I hope no serious work is taking place, As you concentrate on the task in hand, It is easy to forget the youngster, With disastrous consequences

Thinking on the mindset of kids, sharp edge tools seem to draw them like a magnet, so too does power tools, which can be extremely nasty, Woodworking machinery, with its high speed, is so lethal, i do not even want to go down that road.

Remember also, something rolling off a workbench or machine table, which might only give us a sore toe for a few days, could easily crush a tiny skull, with fatal results The same applies to lethal hot razor like cuttings, capable of some really nasty consequencies.

From my old psychology lessons of many years back, One of the lessons picked up was that young minds, frequently work on sudden impulses, It takes a long time to set up an automatic safety response in ones mind, Think on it yourselves guys, how often has a nast little fright or near miss, instilled in us all a breaking action to our enthusiasm? This is called experience.

This is a good site, where the majority of folks take reasonable care, frequently the unforseen hazhard causes a problem, nobody is immune from that occurance (sods law) I think we all police ourselves pretty well, My one worry nowadays is the minset of "official self rightous expert busybodies" Who would love to restrict our activities, to the point of extinction at the drop of a hat We live in a safety driven politically correct society, Dont give them a chance to pounce.

sansbury
03-06-2011, 02:30 PM
In terms of the judge, I would look at this as an opportunity to slowly, carefully, and calmly explain the situation. It is very likely that a family court judge will know far less about welding than you know about the law. She may hear "welding" and imagine your daughter running around with a huge O/A torch.

If questioned, I would explain the risks and precautions very systematically and try to relate it to things the judge is familiar with. She would probably be at more risk of burns or injury making fried chicken on the stovetop, for instance, and who would think twice about letting a child cook with mom or dad standing right behind them? Bring the safety gear or pictures of it to show how protected she was. Talk about how there's actually not that much heat, cite OSHA stats on risks of shock, etc. Take the unknown out of the equation and demonstrate how thoughtfully you approached this.

Another angle I might play is that you want your daughter to grow up thinking she could do anything a man can do. Girl power! Maybe it will inspire her to grow up to be a sculptor, weldor, or engineer.

derekm
03-06-2011, 02:32 PM
Risk perception is off base:
Would you let a child under the age of 8 do something proven to be 20 times more dangerous for serious injury than motorcycling?( measured as numbers serious injury per thousand hours)

would you ?

I doubt anyone would think welding was easily capable of serious injury and death. A nasty burn to the hand and severe headache is about as far as its likely to get

yet we have people thinking that supervised welding is dangerous for children.


however horse riding is significantly more dangerous and yet we encourage young children to do it?


"On average, motorcyclists suffer an injury once every 7000 hours of riding. By contrast, an equestrian (horseback rider) may have a serious accident once every 350 hours."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1478823/

and before you say the research is biased check who is backing the research

PixMan
03-06-2011, 03:05 PM
It is true that my son never suffered so much as a scratch while riding pillion, but my daughter suffered a broken collarbone in her first month of horseback riding.

To justanengineer: I was listening to an interesting interview on NPR Friday. It was with Dean Kamen, founder of the First Robotics competition, and others who also promotes a completely different way of learning for our youth. One thing that was mentioned was that as we age it's not a waning ability to learn that restricts us, it's our learned understanding of actions and consequences. Youth, OTOH, learn faster and deeper be trying things and making mistakes. They can do this without the encumbrances of experience, the baggage that we adults carry with us all the time. The key is to exercise just enough supervision to keep them from hurting themselves, but to let them make the mistakes. In doing so, they often discover their own resourcefulness in seeking both obvious and alternate solutions to problems. This is the focus of the competition...not to build a robot.

Black_Moons
03-06-2011, 03:13 PM
"On average, motorcyclists suffer an injury once every 7000 hours of riding. By contrast, an equestrian (horseback rider) may have a serious accident once every 350 hours."


Awsome. When my brothers kid ask for a pony, Im getting him a motorbike! 'Its safer' I'll say....

Yea, don't think i'll really get away with that...

cuemaker
03-06-2011, 04:13 PM
My point is why take a chance on what a judge might think about about a kid welding. You are heading to court that will decide who will get custody and if u don't win that the court will decide how much time u get with ur daughter. I am sure you can put off welding with her until after court. Why add one more thing??

vpt
03-06-2011, 04:14 PM
My oldest likes her 4 wheeler.

http://www.youtube.com/user/snowseeker1?feature=mhum#p/u/4/6lW6BcpfJ0E

lane
03-06-2011, 08:25 PM
Its not what the kid can do . Its what the wife and judge thinks the kid should be doing. And it sure is not being in a shop at that age may be 16 are so . As far as a judge is concerned. Judges don`t think like real people.

Rustybolt
03-07-2011, 07:53 AM
Sorry your ex wife is being such a PIA.
Kids like to help their dads.
Whenever my dughter decided what I was doing was more interesting than what she was doing at the moment, I let her help. Not just a hammer a piece of wood and few nails help, but , look at the picture in the instructiions and tell me what we need to do next grab a wrench help.
It started when she was 3 or 4.
It's a very important step in a childs deveopment to know they are a useful part of the family.

SteveF
03-07-2011, 09:13 AM
Risk perception is off base:
Would you let a child under the age of 8 do something proven to be 20 times more dangerous for serious injury than motorcycling?( measured as numbers serious injury per thousand hours)

[snip]

"On average, motorcyclists suffer an injury once every 7000 hours of riding. By contrast, an equestrian (horseback rider) may have a serious accident once every 350 hours."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1478823/

and before you say the research is biased check who is backing the research

While I can say that I've never been injured on my motorcycle, I did have my foot stomped by a Percheron so hard it was broken and I said bad words for 5 full minutes, but I'll take that over the 3 days my buddy spent in the hospital after he got cleaned off his bike by a deer at 50 mph.

If you read that article and follow the links back to the source articles, the data gets kinda' flimsy. Honestly, how do they have any idea how many hours a year a person spends riding either or even how many people ride horses? In the article you quote the injury sample size is 20!

Fatality data is more solid. Runs about 4500 - 5000 per year for motorcycles and 200 for equine activites in the USA.

Steve

photomankc
03-07-2011, 09:22 AM
Like others have said. Age has little to do with it. My daughter was helping me reload ammo when she was 5 because she was able to listen, follow directions, and keep her hands off what she was told not to touch. She's built a project on the manual mill at 6 and helps run the new CNC'd mill now at 7. I know plenty of teens I would not trust to turn on the lights in my basement so age does not determine ability or responsablity.

derekm
03-07-2011, 11:36 AM
While I can say that I've never been injured on my motorcycle, I did have my foot stomped by a Percheron so hard it was broken and I said bad words for 5 full minutes, but I'll take that over the 3 days my buddy spent in the hospital after he got cleaned off his bike by a deer at 50 mph.

If you read that article and follow the links back to the source articles, the data gets kinda' flimsy. Honestly, how do they have any idea how many hours a year a person spends riding either or even how many people ride horses? In the article you quote the injury sample size is 20!

Fatality data is more solid. Runs about 4500 - 5000 per year for motorcycles and 200 for equine activites in the USA.

Steve

Read carefully. the sample size of 20 is in depth cause analysis of accidents.
which points to 75% being the horse rather than the rider or traffic.

The motorcycling versus horse riding is using UK national statistics on reported serious injuries.

see citations
2 Firth JR. Equestrian injuries. In: Schneider RC, Kennedy JC,
Plant ML, Fowler PJ, Hoff FT, Matthews LS, eds. Sports
Injuries, Mechanisms Prevention and Treatment. Baltimore: Williams
and Wilkins, 1985: 431-8.

spope14
03-07-2011, 02:28 PM
I agree with the post about your soon to be ex-wife being jealous about the young one having a great time and raving about it. This said, My oldest daughter I would not put around machinery until she was about 14, my youngest started helping at 8. I would not have my grand daughter in my shop right at this point in life, she is 8. Depends upon the kid, the focus they have, the ability to follow direction, and their attention to detail. Heck, there are 30 and 40 year olds I have worked with that I would not put in my shop to help me.

The judge may use state employment law to judge basis on this. Even schools have a 16 year old requirement for most applications, or specialty requirements for Junior High and even grade school kids using some power tools. May want to check this out, what are the courses at the schools, say middle or Junior High. Then again, our school district may be one of the few left with Jr. High shop?

HWooldridge
03-07-2011, 03:22 PM
I've been married for 30 years; our four "kids" are now grown men and gone from home. I'm also sorry this is part of a child custody issue and I can't speak to that aspect - but I had a shop since before our sons were born so they all grew up around tools. I constantly told them everything was either "hot, heavy or hard" so horseplay was not tolerated...no exceptions. I let them use anything whenever they matured to the point where I felt they were capable to handle the tool and they had showed an interest in it. I also never turned them loose without supervision and believe it is a judgment call with every person - as previously stated, there are some who should not be in a shop before their teen years (perhaps even as adults) - other people are more reliable at a younger age. For example, my father and grandfather allowed me to use all sorts of hand tools beginning when I was quite young (from about 6 years of age and up) and I did cut myself or hammer a fingertip from time to time but the occasional injury never stopped my interest. The first power tools I was allowed to use were belt sanders - chain saws were not allowed until I was older and stronger. I always emphasized safety with power tools or when welding and my wife never questioned my judgment because she trusted I would not put them in harm's way. Although they became familiar with my shop over the years and completed some hobby projects, only one of the four shows any interest in metalwork and he just likes to weld - none have any interest in machining or tool work...but I still have hope for a grandchild to come along and show an interest.:)

PixMan
03-07-2011, 04:55 PM
My oldest likes her 4 wheeler.




Please, don't let her ride that without a good helmet. How might you feel if it up-ended and landed on her noggin? If nothing else, putting a helmet on every time she rides will help her get into a good habit.

dharnell
03-13-2011, 11:00 PM
My youngest (8 years old) was watching me grind some dies today. After watching a while he asked if he could help grind some dies. We went over the basics of what each handle/wheel did, got his glasses, and started.

After a few passes he got into a nice rhythm, wait till the wheel reaches the end of its stroke, feed the wheel 0.010" and repeat. 370 passes later he was done. He liked watching the sparks. He ground 2 dies, then his interest started to fade. Said he "had enough", went to play with his brothers.

Dave

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee406/dtmachining/DSCF2060_640x480.jpg

David Powell
03-14-2011, 10:49 AM
Obviously has the right idea----- let the children do things and participate as and when THEY want to , not when you, the adult think they SHOULD. My neighbour tried too hard to encourage his son to become involved with his interest( Antique car restoration) the result being that the boy has NO interest whatsoever in anything mechanical. I became well aware that my children only had interest at times and tried to organise things so that we could play in the workshop when they wanted, but could go and play other things when interest in the shop waned. The results were excellent. regards David Powell.

Davo J
03-14-2011, 05:46 PM
It all depends on the child.
My son has been in the shed since he could walk, he would just have a hammer and some nails until he got bored. Latter on in years he would come down for a few hours watching and asking about things. I first put a mig welder in his hand at the age of nine, but he didn't do it on his own until he was about 14. He always had a mechanical mind with building amazing things with Mecano, fixing push bikes and remote control cars, then at around 13 fixing motor bikes and cars. All through the years of learning my wife has also encouraged him and is now proud of what he can do.

He is 18 now and is a first year apprentice in auto electrics. He won the job from a weeks trial last year when they where not hiring until after chistmas. The first week he rebuilt a starter motor using the the lathe to turn down the commutator and fitted a full stereo/GPS etc to the bosses new car.
In the second week, a truck came in the work shop that needed a tie rail rewelded as it had been broken, so they could run new wires down it. The shop had the welders but no one knew how to weld because the couple of guys that knew how to do it had left and even the bosses and the fully qualified guys had no clue. So my son put his hand up and did the overtime welding so they could get the truck out.
So teaching him from when he was young paid off for him.

He has never been a big fan of video games, I look at his mates these days and they haven't got a clue and are always asking him to do things for them as they don't know how.

His 2 year older sister is a girly girl and was never very interested in the shed stuff. I would invite her in when she was playing in the yard, but she would never stay long.

All though the grand kids love the hammer and nails in the shed, the video games have got their attention. Some kids have got the inkling some haven't.

Good luck with your court case, if it's anything like over here the child's safety comes first and like said above judges are not normal people.

Dave

sasquatch
03-14-2011, 06:32 PM
This topic kinda reinforces ones faith in the upcomming generation, so good to read here that kids are recieving the chance to learn "REAL" things!!

These destructive mind robbing video games are not going to be good for the next generation. Seems like so many are going to end up just "Wandering Sheep", with little ability in anything except using their thumbs.

Forrest Addy
03-14-2011, 07:23 PM
So isolate your children from all productive activity, send them to school where no practcal training is offered, fail to send them on excursions to museums and factories, farm and studios, deny them activer participation in community events and decision making, and what do we get? A generation of know nothing, do nothing, game players.

Kids learn their most vivid lessons emulating adults. Want them to take responsibility, place them in responisble situations under a mentor whether its hunting and gathering or building a nation a cog at a time. It's been that way for 50,000 years. Why should it be different now?

Want to make good citizens? Build up Scouting and participate; adult and child. Gangs and drud will wither and family solidarity will return.

Black_Moons
03-14-2011, 07:50 PM
Obviously has the right idea----- let the children do things and participate as and when THEY want to , not when you, the adult think they SHOULD. My neighbour tried too hard to encourage his son to become involved with his interest( Antique car restoration) the result being that the boy has NO interest whatsoever in anything mechanical. I became well aware that my children only had interest at times and tried to organise things so that we could play in the workshop when they wanted, but could go and play other things when interest in the shop waned. The results were excellent. regards David Powell.

VERY good point, forcing children to do things just makes them rebel because they can and its something to rebel against. Its not a fun activity, its a job/task, once you force them to do it. Also children have short attention spans and don't perticularly enjoy doing something once there attention lapses.

fixerdave
03-14-2011, 08:27 PM
I while back, I was helping build some stuff while watching a friend's kid... we're talking a can't walk, still in diapers, kid. Within 2 minutes of watching, he was helping me thread nuts on bolts, just had to show him the right way to turn, once. Within 5, he was doing it himself, wouldn't let me do any. Within 10 minutes, he had a ratchet figured out, though, obviously, I had to torque things down. Kids are smart; give 'em a chance and they might surprise you.

My kid is now 3/4 year old and I expect I'll be having plenty of battles with Mom about him being in the shop. Hopefully, not court battles though. My condolences. My bottom-line limit is that anyone going into the shop has to have enough experience in life to understand pain, the concept of 'careful, and when 'no' really, really means 'NO!' Until then, there's no way I'd let my kid walk around my shop.

I was going to finish with the obligatory stories about how I grew up... but there's no point. If Social Services were then like they are now, I'd have grown up in a foster home, no question about it. But, oh man, did I have fun :)

David...