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Evan
04-09-2011, 02:32 PM
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http://ixian.ca/pics8/anybody.gif





The active ip address is 69.223.24.100

Put this in your hosts file and you will be able to get here in the future.

69.223.24.100 bbs.homeshopmachinist.net

dp
04-10-2011, 01:09 AM
Dang if the DNS didn't break again. Looks like all the servers are down.

Edit: Here's a great tool for those times when you think maybe the government has pulled the Internet's big red switch:

http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/bbs.homeshopmachinist.net

Here's another: http://name.space.xs2.net/cgi-bin/nslookup.pl?pageid=NSLOOKUP&nsinput=bbs.homeshopmachinist.net&submit=search

aboard_epsilon
04-11-2011, 12:31 PM
yup, took your advice and put this

69.223.24.100 bbs.homeshopmachinist.net

in the hosts file

for windows ..for future

C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\etc

thanks ..not that there is any new stuff to read

dont seem to be any adverts here either ..wonder iof its anything to do with them ?

all the best.markj

Evan
04-11-2011, 01:19 PM
Village Press is running their own DNS servers. They are down completely and the entire Village Press online presence has disappeared for almost 4 days now. It isn't just this BBS or the ad servers, it is all of the Village Press Internet content. VP is a fairly large company although since it is privately held it isn't possible to obtain exact numbers. It is a vertically integrated company that likes to do everything in house. They produce somewhere in the neighbourhood of 40 different publications, some of them regular magazines and others are industry marketing publications tailored to specific market segments for clients that produce particular products. VP isn't just about machining and the HSM. They publish magazines about subjects as diverse as gourmet dining to sporting dogs.

This problem is caused by the DNS servers not working. DNS stands for Domain Name System. It is the equivalent of a phone book that provides computers with a translation of the domain name to the actual Internet "phone number" that must be "dialled" by your computer to reach the correct destination. When that information is not available then the only way to reach the VP websites is to know the number in advance. That number is the IP address (Internet Protocol address) for the VP web servers.

What VP is missing is an off site DNS backup system that doesn't rely on their equipment to provide that address. There are companies such as Zone Edit that specialize in providing such services. I used Zone Edit for a decade to provide DNS service for my servers at my business and never had an issue. DNS servers come in pairs for this very reason. Each online server system has a primary DNS address and a secondary. By assigning the secondary to a different off site location it will take over if the primary isn't working.

DICKEYBIRD
04-11-2011, 01:20 PM
Heah I is!!:D

Evan
04-11-2011, 01:26 PM
Sounds like the DNS is just been brought back online. Now the DNS information has to propagate around the internet to all the ISPs so that it can be fed to your computer when you need to translate the address for this BBS to an IP address. That can take a while, up to 24 hours for some locations.

DICKEYBIRD
04-11-2011, 01:40 PM
Please quell my paranoia. What's the chances of all previous posts being lost....pffft, gone?

ps: I got here using dp's host file edit posted on PM too. Thanks dp! I had no idea how to do that previously. I thought it was all magic.:)

Evan
04-11-2011, 02:03 PM
Please quell my paranoia. What's the chances of all previous posts being lost....pffft, gone?


Dunno. Depends on the VP IT Dept and their backup policies. Studies have shown that a business that suffers a catastrophic data loss has a 50/50 chance of being out of business within a year. Backups should be made daily and a copy should be kept in secure offsite data storage.

Even for my puny little operation I ran my servers in pairs with all data mirrored on the backup server, especially my e-mail service. It mirrored all changes every 5 minutes. The backup server pinged the primary server every few seconds and if it didn't answer it took over all web services. I kept online backups at a secondary web hosting account.

Rustybolt
04-11-2011, 02:15 PM
I'm blaming congress.

DICKEYBIRD
04-11-2011, 02:17 PM
Thanks for the info Evan.

The search function works as good as ever. I just pulled up some old posts so things must be OK. Apparently mis-spent paranoia on my part.

lugnut
04-11-2011, 02:17 PM
What ever it was, I'm glad it's fixed, I missed you guys.

Dennis WA
04-11-2011, 02:28 PM
Thanks to PM for posting the fix. Connection speed is very slow - hope it is fully fixed soon.

Westline
04-11-2011, 02:37 PM
It's alive it' alive ..... A entire weekend without my hsm fix ... It sucked

davidh
04-11-2011, 02:37 PM
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http://ixian.ca/pics8/anybody.gif





The active ip address is 69.223.24.100

Put this in your hosts file and you will be able to get here in the future.

69.223.24.100 bbs.homeshopmachinist.net








oh my, finally, i was so worried that it was part of the debt reduction / budget deal................... whew ! ! ! ! !

kc5ezc
04-11-2011, 02:42 PM
Good info Evan. Where is my hosts file located on my computer?

Westline
04-11-2011, 03:05 PM
Good info Evan. Where is my hosts file located on my computer?
C:windows/system32/drivers/etc........ Then check for hosts...... Open with notepad

Evan
04-11-2011, 03:08 PM
I didn't give details on the theory that if you don't know you shouldn't be messing with it. But, now that there are others here to answer questions I will give simple instructions.

Mark posted the directory path above: C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\etc


In Windows Explorer (right click Start button and select Explore) drill down to the target listed above. Double click the file named Hosts with no extension. Windoes will ask you how to open it and pick "Select program". Select Notepad from the list. On a blank line below everything else type in

69.223.24.100 bbs.homeshopmachinist.net


Then select File>Save.

That's it. Close everything. Be aware that if the BBS changes its IP address in the future you will have to delete this entry.

lakeside53
04-11-2011, 03:09 PM
To modify hosts on Windows 7, if not already enabled, you'll need to enable the Administrator account and log on as such.

easiest way, from CMD box

net user administrator /active:yes



http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd744293(WS.10).aspx

chevy3755
04-11-2011, 03:16 PM
im lost..........

metalmagpie
04-11-2011, 03:22 PM
Thanks, you guys. Evan, very helpful. Andy, yours too, especially. :-)

Good to be back.

metalmagpie

George Bulliss
04-11-2011, 04:23 PM
As you already know, Village Press suffered a major hardware breakdown, causing our board and about everything else to go dark. It is my understanding that things are being pieced together in an effort to get things back up and running but more permanent fixes will be done when the hardware is available. Because of this, there will likely be further outages in the days to come.

Village Press does regular and frequent backups so the amount of any data lost from the board in a situation such as this would be small. It looks like we didn't lose anything this time.

George

PixMan
04-11-2011, 04:24 PM
I dunno, still not working for me.


;)

Thanks DP for putting the info on PM!

kc5ezc
04-11-2011, 05:57 PM
Thanks Evan for the details. I did not know that I had to put in the numerical URL and the words also. Sorry about the use of non-standard terminology. My old brain just won't compute sometimes. An hour from now I will suddenly remember the correct words.
Thanks again.

.RC.
04-11-2011, 06:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUu7kYDs4Vw&feature=related

lynnl
04-11-2011, 08:07 PM
I didn't give details on the theory that if you don't know you shouldn't be messing with it. But, now that there are others here to answer questions I will give simple instructions.

Mark posted the directory path above: C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\etc


In Windows Explorer (right click Start button and select Explore) drill down to the target listed above. Double click the file named Hosts with no extension. Windoes will ask you how to open it and pick "Select program". Select Notepad from the list. On a blank line below everything else type in

69.223.24.100 bbs.homeshopmachinist.net


Then select File>Save.

That's it. Close everything. Be aware that if the BBS changes its IP address in the future you will have to delete this entry.

Some questions:
1) How common is it for a site to change its IP address?

2) What is accomplished by hard coding the IP address in the hosts file? ...does this speed things up by avoiding the need to resolve the IP address through the DNS?

3) As someone else mentioned in another thread, mine is loading pages at the speed of a sloooowww glacier right now; will this speed it up?

4) The only entry in my hosts file was one for local host. What's that about? Is that me?

5) Is a 'restart' required for the change to take effect?

P.S. I made the change as described, and saved it, then after posting my questions here and saving them, noticed that the date for all the threads which had earlier been "today" reverted to "yesterday", except this thread with my the last entry being mine. ????

Evan
04-11-2011, 08:41 PM
1) Uncommon. I went nearly ten years with the same IP.

2) Hard coding bypasses the DNS lookup and does speed up the process.

3) Slow loading time may well be related to slow DNS lookup. Hard coding just the BBS address won't help if other parts of the VP system are slow, such as the ad servers.

4) "There is no place like 127.0.0.1" :D Yes, it is an internal address that is always the computer itself. You can short circuit any address lookup by making an entry in the hosts file where the local host IP is the target of the domain name you want to stop talking to. That is one way of killing ad servers, for instance.

5) Restart is not required. The hosts file is queried every time a new connection is opened.

PS: Sounds like somebody is messing with the server clock. I sure hope not. It can really screw up this BBS.

dp
04-11-2011, 08:52 PM
Some questions:
1) How common is it for a site to change its IP address?

2) What is accomplished by hard coding the IP address in the hosts file? ...does this speed things up by avoiding the need to resolve the IP address through the DNS?

3) As someone else mentioned in another thread, mine is loading pages at the speed of a sloooowww glacier right now; will this speed it up?

4) The only entry in my hosts file was one for local host. What's that about? Is that me?

5) Is a 'restart' required for the change to take effect?

P.S. I made the change as described, and saved it, then after posting my questions here and saving them, noticed that the date for all the threads which had earlier been "today" reverted to "yesterday", except this thread with my the last entry being mine. ????

1) It is common place for sites to use round-robin DNS and multiple front end web servers. Village Press does this but normally with the BBS. IP swaps happen when a secondary server is brought up so the primary can be maintained. There are expensive solutions for avoiding it, but for small operations it is difficult to justify the expense.

2) Most operating systems will look in the host table for a IP -> name resolution first. This is done to avoid the more costly and less reliable DNS lookup. Most people never put anything in the host tables so there's never any time saved. Host tables are used at risk as the IP is subject to change.

3) Not all the pages your browser is trying to load are working yet, so those requests (adverts, for example) have to time out. Use an ad blocker and that problem goes away.

4) Everyone's default computer ID is "localhost". It always runs on 127.0.0.1 but can also use any IP you wish. But there are lots of reasons why you should not change it. It is how the system communicates with itself. In some cases it is how SSH VPN connections work, but that requires a long explanation.

5) Host tables are considered dynamic and not cached, and so do not require a reboot.

Can't explain the date issue except they are working on the server so things may have changed at that end.

Edit: I should read ahead :)

lynnl
04-12-2011, 10:49 AM
Thanks for the answers Evan, DP.

Regarding the date (today/yesterday) issue, I later recalled that I have GMT set as my time in my profile, since we have lots of British members and inputs. It just so happened that I was doing that around 1900 CDT, which equates to 00Z. ...so yes, the date (per my profile) did flip over from today to yesterday at that time.

MrSleepy
04-23-2011, 07:01 PM
Just thought I'd give this one a bump..

the sites mega fast now...now that theres only a couple of us here..

Rob

MrSleepy
04-23-2011, 07:18 PM
I've just noticed the date..

Its no wonder we are having all these problems..

Skynet has just gone self aware.

Run for your lives.

The only thing that may save us now is ..win7 x64 and the hope that they cant get the drivers.

Rob

aboard_epsilon
04-23-2011, 07:25 PM
Still no good here ..

See you all on Monday... or Tuesday if the USA has a bank Holiday ..had enough.

all the best.markj

Evan
04-23-2011, 09:15 PM
I didn't notice that there was/is a problem. Not only do I use the IP address in my hosts file I have also programmed my router to use Google Open DNS instead of my satellite provider. That has cleared up a number of issues with slow DNS at this end. The Google DNS uses a number of interesting methods to speed up DNS including pre-caching as many DNS entries as possible. That means it doesn't need to go and find the DNS entry somewhere else as long as the time to live hasn't expired.

See here: http://code.google.com/speed/public-dns/

dp
04-24-2011, 01:56 AM
Not to highjack the thread, but prefetching is evil. But then so is Google. My fastest traffic growth is in DNS. I see gratuitous prefetches all day long and I pin them to my IP filter when they finally push it too far. Google is not the only one doing prefetching, and it is wasteful of the server's resources. I pay for bandwidth to suit my needs, not to make Google's profits soar. As a result, Google, Bing, most EU big ISP's and most of Asia are prevented from seeing my DNS servers for more than 5 minutes out of an hour.

As for using Google for DNS, not everyone cares about this but the last thing anyone needs is to tell Google every site they are visiting, adding to the already overwhelming amount of data they collect through Google analytics, web beacons, google adverts, cloud storage, cloud computing via spread sheet and word processing, gmail, and YouTube accounts. Might just as well give them your SSN and driver's license number, and toss in a CC number for good measure, just in case you don't pay your Google bills by credit card.

This gets my attention because Apple is in the news and under the gun from Al the bozo Franken who is trying to force Apple to explain why they're not breaking any laws as a result of the cached data they maintain in the iPhone and iPad products and the same bozo is ignoring the data mining of the larger but liberally inclined and deep pocketed Google and all the non-stop data mining they do, and upon which their largess is built. (now that is my idea of a run-on sentence). And there is uniform outrage, very likely from Google's own users, who are exploited daily, regarding Apple's caching process.

It's crazy.

Evan
04-24-2011, 02:24 AM
Google doesn't give a sh|t about me personally and they already know all they need to know since I use U tube and the 3D warehouse.

I'm starting to wonder what is going on here. Three weekends in a row is starting to smell funny. It makes me thing of sabotage or an attack calculated to find the IT guys off the job. Were I they I would be checking out the job ads.

As for Apple, every cell phone company keeps track of thier users. They have to for 911 purposes at the very least. As the CEO of Sun Microsystems, Scott McNealy said 12 years ago, "You have zero privacy anyway. Get over it."

J Tiers
04-24-2011, 03:27 PM
it's still stupid slow, but at least it works........

But it seems nobody else is here......

Yas, Bass, I did find the hosts file.......... good info, I tend to treat the machine as a tool, and not a device to be customized and diddled with.

There IS some junk in that file....... What loads it?

MrSleepy
04-24-2011, 03:42 PM
The hosts file is used by TCIP

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=660850&postcount=31

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/172218

Rob.

MrSleepy
04-24-2011, 03:48 PM
I've been keeping an eye on who's online today ..sporadically..

Theres usually about 8-10 visitors and 6-8 regulars.

So it seems that few people made the hosts file changes Evan suggested at the top of this thread a week ago

Rob

dp
04-25-2011, 12:28 AM
Google doesn't give a sh|t about me personally and they already know all they need to know since I use U tube and the 3D warehouse.

Well it's probably true they have no personal interest in you any more than a cattle rancher cares about cows - they care about herds. Google hasn't any way to stop caring about every byte of data they process.




I'm starting to wonder what is going on here. Three weekends in a row is starting to smell funny. It makes me thing of sabotage or an attack calculated to find the IT guys off the job. Were I they I would be checking out the job ads.

We just had an all nighter a few nights ago where I work. Wasn't a big attack but our counter-measures were, and in the end our counter-measures did as much damage as the DDOS attack. You don't dare not throw up all the shields, though, because an attack evolution is hard to predict.

The incidence of recreational attacks is largely gone - now we're facing attacks on assets; user account info, and such. The last several attacks all appeared to be motivated by financial gain.


As for Apple, every cell phone company keeps track of thier users. They have to for 911 purposes at the very least. As the CEO of Sun Microsystems, Scott McNealy said 12 years ago, "You have zero privacy anyway. Get over it."

Scott said a lot of dumb things - that's why he lost his job at Sun and is probably why Sun is gone (rumors of the demise of their domain name are premature). The fact is we have zero chance of privacy but we should never have zero expectation of privacy.

Currently privacy is largely provided by and on the backs of ISP's and the networking teams at on-line corps, and the diligence of end users who understand the risks.

It is absolutely true though that all "smart" cell phones maintain data as do the cell towers. Cell phones with cameras and GPS know within 20' where in the world your phone is - that's why they are one of the first things investigated following a serious crime. The GPS data is included as part of the image metadata.

Because these practices are common is not a reason for not being concerned about privacy. There is no reason for not being concerned.

I don't believe the HSM site is broken because of any attacks. Their IT group would have to be incredibly incompetent for that to happen. But crazier things have happened. Bringing up a DNS server is at most a 30 minute job. Keeping at least one server at an off site location is cheap insurance. Parking a Mac Mini server at MacMiniColo.com is a dirt cheap solution - small up front investment, cheap colo fees, easy to operate remotely.

Evan
04-25-2011, 07:36 AM
Any expectation that your privacy will be respected is false. Personal information is aggregated and shared by anyone with whom you have the slightest financial or legal contact. Credit ratings, grocery store discount cards, air miles cards, the OBDC nonvolatile chip in your cars computer, your cell phone, the 50 to 100 video cameras you will pass every day if you leave your house and the rapidly increasing use of RFID devices all contribute to the building of a widely distributed dossier on every person that live in any first world country.


I did some checking on VP and their DNS servers. They serve 82 domain names from both machines. I couldn't find a complete list but a few were a surprise. They own the IP block 69.223.24.xxx but there are some interesting sites tucked in that range including a "Welcome to Tajikastan" blog that in some way relates to gambling at 69.223.24.103.

The site is now down with the message



Вызов DB функции завершен с ошибкой номер: 145
Table './pmk/jos_session' is marked as crashed and should be repaired SQL=SELECT session_id FROM jos_session WHERE session_id = '8ea5dde0738350e5b95dd72d434a4bb8'

Anything to do with gambling in any way is a prime target for hackers and DOS blackmail. What the site contained is a giant list of links to lotteries all over the world. That's pretty interesting information.

lazlo
04-25-2011, 09:55 AM
This gets my attention because Apple is in the news and under the gun from Al the bozo Franken who is trying to force Apple to explain why they're not breaking any laws as a result of the cached data they maintain in the iPhone and iPad products.

Senator Franken is formally asking Apple to explain why all iPhone and iPads are recording a persistent history of your GPS location in a hidden file. It's even saved across backups and phone changes. :mad:


Franken presses Apple on privacy

Posted at 4:59 PM on April 20, 2011 by Brett Neely (6 Comments)

After security researchers revealed today that Apple's best-selling iPhone and iPad devices contain a hidden file that secretly records the location of its user, DFL Sen. Al Franken wrote a letter to Apple CEO Steve Jobs demanding an explanation.


This "feature" was added in iOS4, and was discovered and reported by O'Reilly:



Got an iPhone or 3G iPad? Apple is recording your moves
A hidden file in iOS 4 is regularly recording the position of devices. (http://radar.oreilly.com/2011/04/apple-location-tracking.html)

Today at Where 2.0 Pete Warden and I will announce the discovery that your iPhone, and your 3G iPad, is regularly recording the position of your device into a hidden file. Ever since iOS 4 arrived, your device has been storing a long list of locations and time stamps. We're not sure why Apple is gathering this data, but it's clearly intentional, as the database is being restored across backups, and even device migrations.

moe1942
04-25-2011, 10:07 AM
I'm blaming congress.


Nope..Bush and Rove are behind it..:)

Evan
04-25-2011, 10:08 AM
This "feature" was added in iOS4, and was discovered and reported by O'Reilly:



It has been there since iOS3 and is old news to the security community.

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/04/21/3570888/iphone-tracking-file-is-old-news.html

lazlo
04-25-2011, 10:17 AM
It has been there since iOS3 and is old news to the security community.

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/04/21/3570888/iphone-tracking-file-is-old-news.html

LOL! In your article, a computer forensics expert claims he discovered that Apple is logging everyone's position last year, and that he wrote a tool for law enforcement to dump the log files. This is a good thing?? :mad:
Looks like I'm going to jailbreak my phone...


Sean Morrissey, CEO of Katana Forensics, said he discovered early last year that Apple devices running iOS 3, the then-current version of the operating system, were logging their locations over time. With iOS 4, which came out last summer, Apple moved, renamed and reformatted the log file and began backing it up on to users computers, he said. The changes made the tracking file more accessible to forensics researchers.

Katana has developed an application called Lantern that it offers to companies and law enforcement agencies "from the federal to the local level" for use in gleaning data from iOS devices, Morrissey said. As early as May or June, Katana had developed a software tool that it used internally to access the iOS tracking file for clients for which it consulted, he said. The company included a version of that tool with the new version of Lantern it released in January, he said.

Katana consults on about a dozen cases a month and regularly uses the location tool in Lantern to find out where particular iOS devices have been, Morrissey said. Cases the company has consulted include missing person cases and custodial kidnappings, he said.

dp
04-25-2011, 10:21 AM
Senator Franken is formally asking Apple to explain why all iPhone and iPads are recording a persistent history of your GPS location in a hidden file. It's even saved across backups and phone changes. :mad:

I take then you disagree with the notion that our expectations of privacy being respected are false. It should be noted that in this discussion of privacy, we are talking only about privacy issues we have not given away through SLA's and other contracts.

The Android phones also have this capability. Al Franken needs to state which law he believes is the controlling authority otherwise it is an over-reach of federal government and comes close to unreasonable search. As a publicity stunt it makes great headlines, and Apple (and Google) would be foolish to avoid responding even on constitutional grounds.

The Apple core (pun intended) of execs is sufficiently wealthy that they could blow off the government and shutter the company rather than submit to an illegal witch hunt. Where's John Galt when you need him.

dp
04-25-2011, 10:25 AM
LOL! In your article, a computer forensics expert claims he discovered that Apple is logging everyone's position last year, and that he wrote a tool for law enforcement to dump the log files. This is a good thing?? :mad:
Looks like I'm going to jailbreak my phone...

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/34/3458.asp

We finally agree on something! :)

Evan
04-25-2011, 10:27 AM
<shrug>

All cell phones track your position.

Mine doesn't though because I don't have one. The cell phone companies call me all the time trying to sell me a plan. If I have time I spend a while on their dime from Mumbai and tell them I will be glad to sign up if they can provide me a written guarantee that it will work from my home. That takes them about 15 minutes to figure out since the coverage maps they supply to the telereps is wrong but the real coverage maps show that I don't have service. There is about 3 kilometres of rock between me and the nearest tower.

I figure the best way to get them to stop calling is to waste as much of thier time as possible while I doodle away on sketchup or something. I'm sure they have a personal "do not call" list since they are paid by the closed deal and not salary.

aboard_epsilon
04-25-2011, 10:29 AM
You may be arrested and charged and put in jail ..just for being at the crime scene ...the real criminals will cover their tracks by not having one of these iphones

Everyone knows the police are lazy ..and they will destroy your life before it becomes obvious that you are innocent ..cases drag on for years etc .

all the best.markj

Evan
04-25-2011, 10:35 AM
That is unlikely since they need to suspect you to begin with in order to look at your phone for confirmation.

lazlo
04-25-2011, 10:43 AM
The Android phones also have this capability.

So far, that is not the case.

When this story broke last week, hackers poured through the Android OS, and although there's a cache of the last 50 cell towers the phone has used, there's no logging of GPS data, nor is there a persistent cookie trail logged with timestamps.

http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/Android_phones_track_your_location_too.php

The recently discovered Android location files were found by Swedish programmer Magnus Eriksson, who created software called Android-locdump to search through Android-based devices' caches. The software parses two files called cache.cell and cache.wifi located in the /data/data/com.google.android.location/files directory on Android phones.

These two files, cache.cell and cache.wifi, contain records of the last 50 cell towers the device has communicated with and the last 200 Wi-Fi networks the phone has discovered, respectively.

However, unlike the file found on the iPhone, this data is overwritten as the files become full. Accessing the file also requires full administrator privileges (aka, "root" access) to the device in question.



The other, as yet unsubstantiated, claim is that the iPhones/iPads are uploading the GPS tracking data to Apple. If that's the case, this will turn into a historic Supreme Court case.

But the big question in everyone's mind: why the f*&k is Apple doing this?? Why did they add this feature within the last year???

aboard_epsilon
04-25-2011, 10:46 AM
They will go to the phone provider and get logs of who was in the area at the time ..you instantly become a suspect and guilty until proven innocent.

some car parks in the uk require you put your number plate details into the machine before you can park there...so i can see from this , if a crime happend there you would become a suspect ..

ALL THE BEST.MARKJ

lazlo
04-25-2011, 10:52 AM
By the way, if you have a jailbroken iPhone, you can download a program from Cydia that was launched today that will auto purge the GPS cookie trail file (consolidated.db). If your iPhone is not jail broken, you can use "iPhone Browser" to manually delete the offending file:

www.complete-privacy.au.tc

Evan
04-25-2011, 10:54 AM
They will go to the phone provider and get logs of who was in the area at the time ..

You and 10,000 other people.

lazlo
04-25-2011, 10:55 AM
They will go to the phone provider and get logs of who was in the area at the time ..you instantly become a suspect and guilty until proven innocent.

Yes, this has serious implications!

Knock on door: you answer to find two policemen.


"Mr. George, you're under arrest. According to Apple's database, your iPhone was in the vicinity of a murder downtown."

Or how about:


"Mr. George, according to Apple's database, you were driving faster than the speed limit on I-35 today. Please send payment for the speeding ticket to..."

Or for commercial purposes:



"Mr. George, according to Apple's database, you visited Red's Gunshop and Twin Liquors today. Since you drink and shoot, we thought we'd offer you a special deal on..."

Lord knows what would happen if I go to Victoria's Secret! :)

dp
04-25-2011, 10:58 AM
So far, that is not the case.

http://bigpondnews.com/articles/World/2011/04/24/Warning_for_Android_phone_users_604888.html

Edit:
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2011/04/android-phones-keep-location-cache-too-but-its-harder-to-access.ars



But the big question in everyone's mind: why the f*&k is Apple doing this?? Why did they add this feature within the last year???

Why not? Gathering data is what drives the internet. I don't have an iPhone nor an Android, and my BB couldn't find its a$$ with both hands :)

aboard_epsilon
04-25-2011, 11:05 AM
You and 10,000 other people.

no no no !

it may be just five other people or 2 or 1, since most crime is commited at night ..or the crime may have happend in a not so populated area.

why are you not defending you liberties, you seem to be siding with the big brother crap

all the best.markj

mike os
04-25-2011, 11:08 AM
as your cell phone is automatically tracked as long as it is switched on, whats the big deal?... other that apple behaving like a complete arse as normal?

Evan
04-25-2011, 11:10 AM
{another shrug}

All data including phone calls that cross the US border to anywhere and in any direction are subject to intercept by the NSA. That includes the full text of all the postings on the forum since I am outside the US along with many other members. I suspect it also applies to all satellite comm as well.

Your only chance at a semblance of privacy it via "security through obscurity" or, to quote an old Japanese proverb: "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down".

Evan
04-25-2011, 11:14 AM
why are you not defending you liberties, you seem to be siding with the big brother crap



I'm not siding with BB. It a matter of being realistic. It is impossible to avoid being tracked, scrutinized, dossier collected etc unless you live in a cave and club to death passing rabbits for sustenance.

aboard_epsilon
04-25-2011, 11:20 AM
Evan
I have a phone ..but never use it ..it's just there for long trips ..if i have to go anywhere..to use in an emergency ..
other wise i never carry it around with me ..
youve just given me another reason to not to .

all the best.markj

lazlo
04-25-2011, 11:28 AM
So far, that is not the casehttp://bigpondnews.com/articles/World/2011/04/24/Warning_for_Android_phone_users_604888.html

Edit:
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2011/04/android-phones-keep-location-cache-too-but-its-harder-to-access.ars

Same report that I posted above -- they keep a cache of the last 50 cell towers with the localized WiFi locations, so they know which WiFi hotspot to look for when you turn WiFi on. iOS calls this "localization services" (don't know what Android calls it).

So far, Android does not keep a persistent cookie trail with timestamps.

dp
04-25-2011, 11:31 AM
I'm not siding with BB. It a matter of being realistic. It is impossible to avoid being tracked, scrutinized, dossier collected etc unless you live in a cave and club to death passing rabbits for sustenance.

It would be more accurate to say that unless you take precautions and use the internet carefully, "It is impossible to avoid being tracked, scrutinized, dossier collected etc".

Like many I realized this well into the experience and too late. What is done is done. But there is much people who are just emerging onto the net can do to minimize exposure and exploitation.

I posted in another venue that my daughter's life is an open book and Google has scanned every page. She simply has no idea she crossed the line of caution and there's no undoing it. This is so normal for her now that to get back on the safe side of inet usage she would have to stop just about everything she's doing now that got her where she is, and that is not going to happen. It would not be "normal". She does not have the resources to recover from a full blown wealth shifting identity theft, and will have fewer after the fact. I'm old enough that I don't have the time needed and would likely become a charity case. That is something to think about.

http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2011/feb/26/identity-theft-calledfastest-growing-crime/?partner=yahoo_feeds

http://www.monomachines.com/blog/2011/04/number-of-identity-theft-cases-against-children-increasing/

That certainly does not mean living in a cave as I surely do not. Safe practices are not incompatible with domestic dwellings and a rich life experience :)

Evan
04-25-2011, 12:04 PM
I'm not just talking about the NET. Do you use credit cards? If so they know where you have been, what you bought and when, each time you use it. Same with debit cards and any other portable instrument that can be read and entered into the SYSTEM.

Waterlogged
04-25-2011, 01:13 PM
The "life changing" effects of using the internet for most people will probably be obesity, diabetes, loss of social skills and/or vision issues, yet they only worry about those nasty bread crumb trails as they surf.

John Stevenson
04-25-2011, 01:53 PM
Yes, this has serious implications!

Lord knows what would happen if I go to Victoria's Secret! :)

Well it wouldn't be a secret anymore would it ?

.

Paul Alciatore
04-25-2011, 07:51 PM
<shrug>

All cell phones track your position.

Mine doesn't though because I don't have one. The cell phone companies call me all the time trying to sell me a plan. If I have time I spend a while on their dime from Mumbai and tell them I will be glad to sign up if they can provide me a written guarantee that it will work from my home. That takes them about 15 minutes to figure out since the coverage maps they supply to the telereps is wrong but the real coverage maps show that I don't have service. There is about 3 kilometres of rock between me and the nearest tower.

I figure the best way to get them to stop calling is to waste as much of thier time as possible while I doodle away on sketchup or something. I'm sure they have a personal "do not call" list since they are paid by the closed deal and not salary.

Evan,

I absolutely love it.

In my younger days I got involved in selling door-to-door. I won't mention the company. I loved it when salesmen would knock on my door. I would greet them gladly and quickly usher them into my living room where I would start on MY sales pitch. Wouldn't even give them the chance to get a word in edgewise. You have never seen salesmen so anxious to get away in your whole life. And none ever came back a second time. I even made couple of sales that way.

Great fun.

As for coverage maps, even the "real" ones are not that accurate. Although I am solidly in the middle of the coverage area in the published and unpublished maps AND I can plainly see the nearest tower (about 1/4 mile away) (1/3 KM for you metric types) from my yard, the reception in my house is very poor. In some spots it is completely non-existant. And it is not just my plain old cell phone. My daughter and son-in-law have trouble with their I-Pads and other fancy do-dads in the house.

These maps are based on computer predictions or if actual measurements are made, then you are lucky if they checked as much as one spot in a city block. In short, they are representative of the area, not actual for every spot.

When you are dealing with the higher frequencies that these devices use, the reception can change in a matter of inches. I am frankly amazed that they work as well as they actually do.

lazlo
04-25-2011, 08:00 PM
I'm not just talking about the NET. Do you use credit cards?

I don't use credit cards when I'm buying things at Victoria's Secret :)

Seriously though, several of the responses seem to indicate this is a web surfing issue. It's not. Apple is tracking your location in a persistent/permanent log file that extends beyond phone changes.

That's the first time anyone's been caught doing that -- the Fed might as well just plant a bug on your car. Which leads to the question -- almost all modern cars equipped with GPS have 2-way communication (OnStar etc), and you can call the automaker if your car is stolen and locate it. High-tech LoJack.

So is the Fed tracking everyone's cars? No need for speed traps or toll booths anymore -- they can just use your GPS to determine your speed/location and send you the ticket. But like I said earlier, they don't even need a GPS-enabled car. If you have an iPhone or iPad, Apple can just give them the tracking data.

The issue isn't whether the technology exists to track you. That's been around for awhile. The issue is whether it's legal for Apple (or Google, or Microsoft, or...) to exploit it.

I'll bet a cold beer that there will be an iOS update within the next two weeks that will disable the tracking log...

Paul Alciatore
04-25-2011, 08:06 PM
I am not so much worried about the fact that I am being tracked or that everybody is collecting data on my habits (shopping habits mostly). What concerns me is the uses that this data may be put to.

First, I feel that I should be made aware of ALL such data collected via some simple and FREE means. Perhaps a central registry where all collectors of any such information would be required to register the fact that they are collecting data and some indication of what data they are collecting. Then there should be a simple, IMMEDIATE, and FREE way of contacting them. An internet site would be good. There, I should be able to access ALL information they have collected on me. ALL OF IT. Also ALL uses they have made of this data. Who they sold it to, with similar addresses to find what that organization did with it. Or who they gave it to. Or whatever.

One of the first to be included in this should be the credit agencies. ALL my credit data should be instantly available to me for FREE. All inquiries for that information should be disclosed. And all additional information that they may generate from this data such as credit scores. No charges. No limits. Nothing held back.

All of the above would apply only to the information they have gathered about me, not on anybody else.

Radical? I think not.

Mad Scientist
04-25-2011, 08:19 PM
Senator Franken is formally asking Apple to explain why all iPhone and iPads are recording a persistent history of your GPS location in a hidden file. It's even saved across backups and phone changes. :mad:

Ah what a joke from the funny man himself. But rather then ask Apple what is going on he should have checked out the congressional records because about ten years ago they passed the laws that required all cells phone manufacture to include these back doors for “official government use”. This gives government the ability to not only to listen in to your conversations, but also down load any files that are there, track your location via the cell phone towers, and even turn on your phone to listen in without you knowing it.

The only thing new is that the main stream media finally got around to talking about it.

Welcome to 1984 and a brave new world.

lazlo
04-25-2011, 08:56 PM
he should have checked out the congressional records because about ten years ago they passed the laws that required all cells phone manufacture to include these back doors for “official government use”. This gives government the ability to not only to listen in to your conversations, but also down load any files that are there, track your location via the cell phone towers, and even turn on your phone to listen in without you knowing it.

Is that really true? I don't doubt you, I just never heard of it. Was this part of the 9/11 Patriot Act crap?

To me, this is an issue of legality. Microsoft could track you by your WiFi connection, but as they learned with Palladium, the TPM, and Processor Serial Number, they don't.

Similarly, the phone company has always been able to eavesdrop on your phone calls, but they can't unless they have a court order (although the Patriot Act threw a lot of that constitutional protection out the window as well).

As far as I've seen (and the whole hacker/security community is crawling all over iOS as we speak), no one has determined whether Apple is uploading and disseminating the tracking file. That's really the litmus test -- whether they're remotely tracking all their subscribers.

lazlo
04-25-2011, 09:06 PM
Welcome to 1984 and a brave new world.

The ultimate irony is that Apple's famous 1984 commercial claimed that Apple was freeing you from the bonds of Microsoft...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/22/Ad_apple_1984_2.png

Evan
04-25-2011, 09:25 PM
Seems that this time Mad Scientist isn't just being paranoid.




Point, Click ... Eavesdrop: How the FBI Wiretap Net Operates

By Ryan Singel 08.29.07

The FBI has quietly built a sophisticated, point-and-click surveillance system that performs instant wiretaps on almost any communications device, according to nearly a thousand pages of restricted documents newly released under the Freedom of Information Act.

The surveillance system, called DCSNet, for Digital Collection System Network, connects FBI wiretapping rooms to switches controlled by traditional land-line operators, internet-telephony providers and cellular companies. It is far more intricately woven into the nation's telecom infrastructure than observers suspected.

It's a "comprehensive wiretap system that intercepts wire-line phones, cellular phones, SMS and push-to-talk systems," says Steven Bellovin, a Columbia University computer science professor and longtime surveillance expert.

Slideshow

Snapshots of the FBI Spy Docs
DCSNet is a suite of software that collects, sifts and stores phone numbers, phone calls and text messages. The system directly connects FBI wiretapping outposts around the country to a far-reaching private communications network.

Many of the details of the system and its full capabilities were redacted from the documents acquired by the Electronic Frontier Foundation, but they show that DCSNet includes at least three collection components, each running on Windows-based computers.

The $10 million DCS-3000 client, also known as Red Hook, handles pen-registers and trap-and-traces, a type of surveillance that collects signaling information -- primarily the numbers dialed from a telephone -- but no communications content. (Pen registers record outgoing calls; trap-and-traces record incoming calls.)

DCS-6000, known as Digital Storm, captures and collects the content of phone calls and text messages for full wiretap orders.

A third, classified system, called DCS-5000, is used for wiretaps targeting spies or terrorists.



More: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2007/03/fbi_confirms_co/

EddyCurr
04-25-2011, 11:48 PM
Out of curiosity, how would someone independently verify Mr Singel's claims.
Why couldn't that story be a calculated instance of disinformation?

If true, it seems Efram Zimbalist jr has better IT processes and contractors
than Renfrew of the Royal Mounted, or deeper pockets (or both.) As an
example of how a much less complicated project than touted above
has proceeded:


Delays Dog $130M Mountie ID Project (http://www.ottawacitizen.com/technology/Delays+130M+Mountie+project/4666606/story.html)
By James Bagnall
Ottawa Citizen 2011.04.24

The problem: a $130-million program that was supposed to replace
paper records and processes with electronic ones, is not only late, it's
struggling to pull all the elements together in a manner that works.

Launched nearly six years ago, the realtime identification (RTID) project
was to have been completed by December 2010. The current target is
2012 but that looks optimistic.

The sheer complexity of the national RTID project -not to mention the
RCMP's insistence on customizing the underlying software -are the heart
of the problem.

Officially, Phase 1 was completed in September 2008 -18 months late.
Yet it's not clear that all streams of fingerprinting are flowing as intended.

Lately, a more serious issue has emerged. The RCMP is mulling whether
the software it developed in Phase 1 for handling fingerprint IDs is now
capable of supporting, or working with, the heavy duty Phase 2 software
for retrieving complete criminal records.

Treasury Board also maintained that the RTID project was within the initial
$129.7-million budget, despite taking at least two years longer than
expected.

Another high profile CDN case is that of the Gun Registry.

As contractors go, Fujitsu is no slouch. Then there is CGI, IBM and a
host of other prominent firms. They've all have their difficulties trying
to fulfill contracts with much less scale, scope and interoperability than
the one Mr Singel claims to describe.

.

Evan
04-26-2011, 07:26 AM
Out of curiosity, how would someone independently verify Mr Singel's claims.
Why couldn't that story be a calculated instance of disinformation?



Firstly, they aren't Mr. Singel's claims. He is just a reporter and the information was obtained by the Electronic Frontier Foundation which is a well known group of people whose primary goal is to oppose all efforts by the state and big business to invade the privacy of the ordinary citizen.

The systems that are in place are well known to exist. They include Carnivore, Echelon and others. As for verification, there are invidual reports from both employees and contractors that worked on the interconnection of all the major networks with Quantico, Virginia via special backbone fiber circuits of extremely high capacity.

You must remember that the Internet in the US is still primarily a Defense Deptment network. It was a creation of DARPA and fully one half of the internet addresses are reserved for DoD use. It is sometimes called the "Black Internet". Also of more than passing interest is the fact that Apple Computers is one of a very short list of companies that has an entire top level block of address space allocated for its sole use. All the other companies that enjoy that privilege are top level Defense Department contractors. There are only 256 top level address blocks to serve the entire world in the IPv4 address space.