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RB211
05-04-2011, 02:36 PM
I went to CV-12 Hornet yesterday and took many photo's, which I will post on here for all to enjoy. I happened to learn some stuff about the Sidewinder missile, and I knew you guys would be interested.

First image, I am pointing at a metal wheel that is on each fin of the sidewinder. This wheel does two things. First, it generates electricity for the missile, the second thing is that it gyro stabilizes the missile.
http://www.flightschoolreview.net/images/cv12/sidewinder1.jpg

Another view, a look at the machining of the wheel.
http://www.flightschoolreview.net/images/cv12/sidewinder2.jpg

RB211
05-04-2011, 02:37 PM
And the other two views, I unlocked the fin, and this assembly is what steers the missile.
http://www.flightschoolreview.net/images/cv12/sidewinder3.jpg
and
http://www.flightschoolreview.net/images/cv12/sidewinder4.jpg

I figured some of you may want to implement this on a scale model rocket, or with a home made model rocket with guidance capabilities. Hell, I know I thought about it many times in the past. :)

scmw
05-04-2011, 03:11 PM
I wonder if Evan ever worked out a plan to launch a telescope with a vid transmitter. :)

Evan
05-04-2011, 03:13 PM
Here are a couple of more views. :D

So, why is this guy sprinting?

http://ixian.ca/pics8/missile1.jpg


Those generator wheels explain how it rolls down the deck so well. :eek:

http://ixian.ca/pics8/missile2.jpg

Dale Lusby
05-04-2011, 03:16 PM
Is it just me or does that look like a horizontal milling cutter? Maybe the manufacturer had a bunch laying around when they designed the sidewinder:)

scmw
05-04-2011, 03:17 PM
That could have been a bad day!

DICKEYBIRD
05-04-2011, 03:19 PM
"Warranty Exp Date":eek: :eek: Wonder what the warranty was?

Great pictures of a great weapon that changed the rules.:)

Evan
05-04-2011, 03:20 PM
I happen to like the sidewinder. It's a very capable missle and cheap too. That's why I built one complete with tracking system and seeker. ;)

http://ixian.ca/pics8/solarscope1.jpg

John Stevenson
05-04-2011, 03:44 PM
Two choices, blasted into eternity with a guided missile,

or blasted into maternity with a guided muscle. :D

Seastar
05-04-2011, 03:44 PM
Those are good pictures of some interesting details of a great weapon.
Thanks for posting them.
Back in the late 50s when I was a brand new EE I worked for U S Naval Avionics Facility, Indianapolis.
I was a very small part of the team that developed the sidewinder.
I worked on the IR optics sensors.
I wonder if any of you know why it was named "sidewinder"?
Bill

macona
05-04-2011, 03:51 PM
The spinny things are called Rollerons. They help stabilize the missile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolleron

Duffy
05-04-2011, 03:54 PM
I am going to hazard a guess that the heat-seeking optics have to "look" sideways at the target to get range rate, hence it travels in a sinuous path like its namesake.

Guido
05-04-2011, 03:58 PM
Seastar-----Sidewinder development was run at China Lake Naval Weapons Station, in the outback desert of California. The Sidewinder snake inhabits the area and will give any sailor the willies, when first encountered. Same as the missle when it comes looking for your.

--G

lazlo
05-04-2011, 04:15 PM
The Sidewinder snake inhabits the area

The snake also hunts by heat signature :)

I was in the middle of a field test in Fort Irwin (adjacent to Death Valley), and was standing next to a Humvee that had been parked for awhile, which was driving off with some of our electronic gear.

When the motor started up, the largest friggin snake I have ever seen in person scooted out from under the Humvee, and moved faster than I could react, almost across my toes. Damn sidewinder was thick as my calf, and they really do move sideways... incredibly fast.

Seastar
05-04-2011, 04:23 PM
The reasons are:
1. Its a heat seeker like all rattlesnakes and
2. because of the rotating mirror guidance system it strikes in a spiral pattern somewhat like the sidewinder snake.
You can clearly see the spiral path from the firing aircraft.
It was actually named by an engineer in Indianapolis at Naval Avionics.
We developed most of the early guidance optics and sensors in Indy.
Later, Naval Avionics developed the nitrogen cooled IR sensors.
It's a brilliant simple weapon.
That's why it's lasted for over 50 years.
Something like the M2HB 50 caliber Browning machine gun.
Bill

lazlo
05-04-2011, 04:25 PM
The spinny things are called Rollerons. They help stabilize the missile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolleron

Thanks Jerry -- the Wiki entry isn't very good, but the How Stuff Works page it links to is:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/sidewinder4.htm

Elegantly simple design.

The Wiki article also links to an amateur rocketry page with a group using them.

Guido
05-04-2011, 04:52 PM
If'n you're messing around in the deserts of China Lake, Trona, Ft. Irwin, Edwards AFB, the Sidewinder may be seen but the Mojave Green is the guy to avoid.

"The often mis-named "Mojave Green" has the most potent venom of any rattlesnake in North America. Its poison is about 16 times more powerful than that of the Sidewinder"..

Bad news rattlesnakes--------G

Dawai
05-04-2011, 05:04 PM
I wonder how that rig of a shielded flumed-wind generator would work on a larger scale? Like a car alternator? I have been sketching now for several years.

I bet it'd hummm.. and shake the siding off the house. What comes to mind is a old police siren I pulled off a harley.. It looked similar..

recoilless
05-05-2011, 09:39 PM
The reasons are:
1. Its a heat seeker like all rattlesnakes and
2. because of the rotating mirror guidance system it strikes in a spiral pattern somewhat like the sidewinder snake.
You can clearly see the spiral path from the firing aircraft.
It was actually named by an engineer in Indianapolis at Naval Avionics.
We developed most of the early guidance optics and sensors in Indy.
Later, Naval Avionics developed the nitrogen cooled IR sensors.
It's a brilliant simple weapon.
That's why it's lasted for over 50 years.
Something like the M2HB 50 caliber Browning machine gun.
Bill

Ma Duece turns 90 this year, quite the platform.

Weston Bye
05-06-2011, 05:43 AM
This wheel does two things. First, it generates electricity for the missile, the second thing is that it gyro stabilizes the missile.

I question the 'generates electricity' statement.

Based on my personal (though uninformed) observations of the missile during my time on the flight deck, watching the ordinancemen assemble the fins to the rocket motor, closely examining (dinking around with) the rollerons on the missiles on nearby planes while waiting to launch my unarmed reconnaissance plane, I detected no electrical wiring for a generator function. Also, the rotor spun freely - no cogging as you might expect from a generator.

In addition, I found no citations on the internet concerning rolleron generators. The missile guidance system just didn't need the power, as it was connected to the aircraft through an umbilical until it launched, and in flight the battery didn't have to last very long.

MrSleepy
05-06-2011, 05:48 AM
Isn't this the weapon that kick started the Soviet air-to-air missile program when one fired by a Taiwanese jet became stuck in Mig tailpipe without exploding.

Or was that just another cover story to disguise the fact that the Soviets had stolen the blue prints years before like much of theie technology.

Rob

Weston Bye
05-06-2011, 06:02 AM
Here is a photo of an air turbine I built patterned loosely after the rolleron. It easily achieved 22,000RPM (actual measurement) on 50psi, and exhibited definite gyroscopic properties.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/Weston/DSCN0633.jpg

The Artful Bodger
05-06-2011, 06:51 AM
. It easily achieved 22,000RPM (actual measurement) on 50psi, and exhibited definite gyroscopic properties.



Bravo! More nerve than me. At 22Krpm I would be afraid to check the
'gyroscopic properties' for fear that it would have smashed it way out of the Lexan and chewed my fingers!

lazlo
05-06-2011, 08:48 AM
I question the 'generates electricity' statement.

Based on my personal (though uninformed) observations of the missile during my time on the flight deck, watching the ordinancemen assemble the fins to the rocket motor, closely examining (dinking around with) the rollerons on the missiles on nearby planes while waiting to launch my unarmed reconnaissance plane, I detected no electrical wiring for a generator function.

I spent a lot of time working on "special packages" for the 155 howitzer. The 155 shells have a electrical supply turbine in the fuse, which is screwed on shortly before firing. The reason is that the shells will likely sit for 50 years in an ammo depot, and no battery has that kind of shelf life.

I have one of the little turbines sitting on my desk, amongst a pile of other DoD artifacts from my decade at Army Research Labs. Anyone want a handful of 155 flechettes? :)

Evan
05-06-2011, 09:20 AM
There are plenty of batteries with nearly infinite shelf life that are used in munitions. The main type used is the molten metal battery using sulfur and sodium. The sodium is melted by a pyrotechnic device in seconds and the battery has extremely high power density although an obviously short life.

Weston Bye
05-06-2011, 11:41 AM
I spent a lot of time working on "special packages" for the 155 howitzer. The 155 shells have a electrical supply turbine in the fuse, which is screwed on shortly before firing. The reason is that the shells will likely sit for 50 years in an ammo depot, and no battery has that kind of shelf life...

Just so, but the Sidewinder seeker heads underwent periodic maintenance and were active whenever the plane was in flight. They sent an audio tone to the pilot when they had target accquisition.

Your point about shelf life is important. One of my working encounters with military products involved a development program for a replacement for the chemical fuze used in current hand grenades. As the device ages, the chemicals change such that the delay between pulling the pin and detonation gets longer, potentially giving the enemy enough time to pick it up and throw it back at you.

The new design used a clock spring driven generator, 27,000rpm for a few milliseconds, that charged a capacitor to power a CMOS timer circuit and fire an igniter to begin the detonation chain. The original generator design languished with low voltage problems for two years and a series of engineers until they asked me to look at it. In two weeks I redesigned the generator had a working proof-of-concept, producing twice the voltage and current necessary. In two months I had a complete design, and prototype production began, and it was a dollar cheaper than the original design. Sadly, the program was cancelled for other reasons.

Got a patent on the design, although I think the patent was rather weak.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6707191-0-large.jpg

macona
05-06-2011, 01:53 PM
that charged a capacitor to power a CMOS timer circuit and fire an igniter to begin the detonation chain.


I can just imagine, each grenade coming in an anti-static foil bag! :p

Black_Moons
05-06-2011, 02:50 PM
I can just imagine, each grenade coming in an anti-static foil bag! :p

With a "Use ESD safe handling proceedures only" sticker on the side. People having to find the nearest grounding rod to clip onto before they can throw a grenade.. could cause problems! :P

digger_doug
05-06-2011, 02:55 PM
As my friend, a mechanic in the army, 'splained to me about the Humvee
thermostat he was "diagnosing"....

Instead of having a simple $4 thermostat in the radiator hose,
they have:
1. a temp sensor to indicate temp to computor.
2. computor to make decision.
3. a solenoid valve to actually divert the water.

all prone to fail, all oddball stuff.

Paul Alciatore
05-06-2011, 02:59 PM
I can just imagine, each grenade coming in an anti-static foil bag! :p

Early CMOS devices had static problems but those problems were almost never a concern after they were mounted on a circuit board. They quickly learned to add protection diodes to the inputs and modern CMOS devices have little or no need for special handling.

Still, electronic suppliers routinely pack many devices, including many that have absolutely no sensivity what so ever to static discharge, in conductive packaging.

In about 50 years of handling electronic components of all descriptions, I have never had even a single one become damaged by static discharge. It is a greatly overated problem. GREATLY OVERATED!

derekm
05-06-2011, 03:18 PM
Early CMOS devices had static problems but those problems were almost never a concern after they were mounted on a circuit board. They quickly learned to add protection diodes to the inputs and modern CMOS devices have little or no need for special handling.

Still, electronic suppliers routinely pack many devices, including many that have absolutely no sensivity what so ever to static discharge, in conductive packaging.

In about 50 years of handling electronic components of all descriptions, I have never had even a single one become damaged by static discharge. It is a greatly overated problem. GREATLY OVERATED!

i've managed it, even done in an entire SBC ... but then messing with + and - 30Kv at 20 to 100mA is extreme prejudice. Quite interesting seeing the the silicon actually crawl out of the plastic packaging

POLAR10
05-06-2011, 03:51 PM
An article on the development of the Sidewinder missle in Air & Space Magazine.

http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/Sidewinder.html

lazlo
05-06-2011, 04:05 PM
An article on the development of the Sidewinder missle in Air & Space Magazine.

http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/Sidewinder.html

Cool article! So what does the National Stock Service do when a Russian calls in for replacement parts? :)


"Working with stolen plans, the Soviets copied it so faithfully that the Vympel K-13 shared the Sidewinder’s parts numbers. The Soviet missile was exported en masse to Warsaw Pact countries and later copied by the Chinese. But new-and-improved ’Winders continue to be assembled by Raytheon in Tucson, Arizona, and the missile has progressed through the alphabet from the AIM-9A to today’s AIM-9X."

Weston Bye
05-06-2011, 04:15 PM
A couple of my shipmates from my squadron, RVAH-13, fell afoul of the AIM-9. Lt. Mike Haifley, the navigator was killed and Lcdr. Al Agnew, the pilot, spent some time in the Hanoi Hilton. The Vigilante, the only one lost to an air-to-air missile, was on a recon mission, escorted by a couple of Phantoms. The Phantoms got the MIG, but not before it got a missile away.

lazlo
05-06-2011, 04:26 PM
Wes, didn't they have IFF back then??

Weston Bye
05-06-2011, 05:04 PM
Wes, didn't they have IFF back then??
Yep, truth is, I don't know how the Mig got so close. There was some carping in the squadron about Phantom cowboys but that didn't last long.

Another intresting note that I found on the internet, the captain's log from the Enterprise for that period. No mention of the lost Vigilante, but a lot of crowing about the downing of the Mig.

We celebrate our victories...

Don Young
05-06-2011, 10:14 PM
I worked as a Philco Techrep on the Sidewinder missile with the Air National Guard in the early 60's. The Guard's F100's had been retrofitted to carry Sidewinders. Philco worked closely with the Navy during development and was the primary manufacturer of the guidance units with some later units built by General Electric.

The rollerons were added to stabilize the missile and correct a vibration problem in early units. Power was by an elecrical umbilical prior to launch. A hot gas generator provided pneumatic power to the steering fins on the front of the missile and operated a turbine generator for in-flight electrical power. Electronics was based on vacuum tubes at that time.

The Sidewinder was very deadly. One was accidentally launched and brought down a B-52 during a training exercise in New Mexico and they were very effective against the MIG's. I am glad they have had such a long lifespan.

IdahoJim
05-06-2011, 10:24 PM
If'n you're messing around in the deserts of China Lake, Trona, Ft. Irwin, Edwards AFB, the Sidewinder may be seen but the Mojave Green is the guy to avoid.

"The often mis-named "Mojave Green" has the most potent venom of any rattlesnake in North America. Its poison is about 16 times more powerful than that of the Sidewinder"..

Bad news rattlesnakes--------G

Yup...a combination of nerve toxin, like a cobra, and hemotoxin, like most other rattlesnakes...for their size, they are very bad news.
Jim

derekm
05-07-2011, 09:50 AM
...
The Sidewinder was very deadly. One was accidentally launched and brought down a B-52 during a training exercise in New Mexico and they were very effective against the MIG's. I am glad they have had such a long lifespan.
The L variant worked very nicely on :
A4 skyhawks
Mk III mirages
Daggers
C130's
Canberra

lazlo
05-07-2011, 10:05 AM
The Sidewinder was very deadly. One was accidentally launched and brought down a B-52 during a training exercise in New Mexico

By "brought down" -- do you mean forced a landing? With the sheer size of the B-52, and the small 20lb warhead in the Sidewinder, you'd think the most it could do is disable one of the engines?

RB211
05-07-2011, 12:18 PM
By "brought down" -- do you mean forced a landing? With the sheer size of the B-52, and the small 20lb warhead in the Sidewinder, you'd think the most it could do is disable one of the engines?
20lbs of explosive next to a paper thin skinned airplane can hit quite a few critical systems

lakeside53
05-07-2011, 12:43 PM
A shattered engine can do the rest.

Steve Steven
05-07-2011, 12:49 PM
New Mexico National Air Guard brought down the B-52 in the early 60's, my college roommate worked in the same lab as the pilot who did it. Exposed a flaw in the warning-arming-firing system, the saying was at thetime, "NMANG was the only force who has shot down a B-52".

Several of crew died, two I think.

Steve

lazlo
05-07-2011, 01:09 PM
Wow, crazy story. The co-pilot and crew chief were stranded in the El Paso desert for two days before they rescued them :confused:

http://www.angelfire.com/dc/jinxx1/images/Shootdown.html


The Sidewinder flew straight and true and impacted one of the engine pods on the left wing taking the wing off in the explosion. Even with the small charge carried by the missile the bomber was fatally wounded. Capt Donald D. Blodgett described in the February, 1962 issue of Interceptor what happened next:

"As the B-52 veered sharply to the left, I applied full right aileron but the aircraft remained in a left bank. The controls were shaking so hard I was unable to get my hand on the inter-phone button to tell the crew to bail out. I let go with my right hand and hit the alarm bell." He then continues to describe his ejection and the breakup of the airplane. Some time after he landed, his tail gunner found him. Later that day a helicopter rescued them, but it was two days later before the copilot and crew chief were located and rescued. Three other crew members perished in the crash, their bodies still inside the wreckage.

Evan
05-07-2011, 01:35 PM
Not all crew positions have ejection capability. The flight engineer is buried well inside the decks below the pilots and cannot eject. He would have to make his way to a hatch and blow it or jump out an open bomb bay. Even the pilots have a longer than usual sequence to follow. First they have to blow a hatch over the cockpit before they can eject.

You can see in this crash at Seattle the hatch has just been blown but the copilot never made it out.

http://ixian.ca/pics8/b52.jpg

BTW, the B-52 doesn't have ailerons, it has spoilers. It cannot recover when the angle of bank exceeds a certain amount. That is what happened in the above photo. The pilot banked too far and lost control.

RB211
05-07-2011, 01:38 PM
BTW, the B-52 doesn't have ailerons, it has spoilers. It cannot recover when the angle of bank exceeds a certain amount. That is what happened in the above photo. The pilot banked too far and lost control.

As I recall, that pilot was known as being a hotdog, and he attempted to do a barrel roll? My god, he should of known about the limitations of his airplane...

Evan
05-07-2011, 01:42 PM
He wasn't just a hotdog. He was a loose cannon on the deck and the command structure had completely lost control of him. It's a long story but a little googling will bring it up. It is an interesting read. The copilot in the accident was his immediate squadron commander because everybody else refused to fly with him. The pilot didn't even attempt to eject as he was basically on a suicide mission.

Tony Ennis
05-07-2011, 03:13 PM
My god, he should of known about the limitations of his airplane...

He knew the limitations of his aircraft very well. He was among the finest B-52 pilots. But he seemed to have a disregard for safety rules, breaking them for the fun of it. This time, he rolled snake-eyes.

lazlo
05-07-2011, 04:35 PM
"As the B-52 veered sharply to the left, I applied full right aileron but the aircraft remained in a left bank. "

BTW, the B-52 doesn't have ailerons, it has spoilers.

You're questioning the statement of the B-52 pilot who was shot down? :rolleyes:

Capt Blodgett was flying a B-52B, which had ailerons. The ailerons were eliminated from the G and H variants.

Not that it has anything to do with the Sidewinder missile...

Orrin
05-07-2011, 06:50 PM
The B52 crashed at Fairchild AFB near Spokane, WA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E21byPXR1ek

Orrin

Don Young
05-07-2011, 09:24 PM
The links and other accounts pretty well sum it up. As the Sidewinder Techrep to the Air National Guard, I was part of the accident investigation team. The official finding was that moisture had infiltrated one of the Cannon plugs and resulted in initiating the launch sequence, effectively bypassing both the arming and firing circuits. The Sidewinder was then 'on its own' since it did not depend on any external systems after launch.

The accident happened in the mountains near Grants, New Mexico. The search and rescue team encountered a lot of snow and ice and had to be rescued themselves.

As a result of the accident, an additional mechanical lock was placed on the launcher rail. This prevented launch in the event of accidental launch sequence initiation. Other changes were made later after I was no longer associated with the program.

Evan
05-07-2011, 09:26 PM
The A through F variants of the B-52 had spoilers with small ailerons as well. Primary control was by the spoilers which is obvious since the ailerons were eliminated.

lazlo
05-07-2011, 09:35 PM
"As the B-52 veered sharply to the left, I applied full right aileron but the aircraft remained in a left bank. "

BTW, the B-52 doesn't have ailerons, it has spoilers.

...


The A through F variants of the B-52 had spoilers with small ailerons as well.

So the pilot who was describing being shot down was correct? :rolleyes:

The original B-52's, which were designed for high altitude bombing runs, had a combination of spoilers and ailerons and a tall tail for directional stability.

The B-52G and -H were redesigned for low-level penetration -- the reality of the Cold War and Russia's national radar defense network. They removed the ailerons and shortened the fin span to lighten the wings and increase fuel capacity, and shortened the tail to reduce the weight at the back so more bombs could be carried.

As a result, you can't bank the -G or H beyond 45 degrees, which is what the pilot flying Czar-52 at Fairchild AFB did.


Boeing B-52G 'Stratofortress' SN: 58-0225
(http://www.aero-web.org/museums/ny/gafbny/58-0225.htm)
Notes: Upgraded B-52F. Fin span reduced, ailerons deleted, nose radome enlarged.

loose nut
05-07-2011, 10:36 PM
There was a story floating around many years ago, I can't substantiate it but it seems like something that some brainiac would come up with.

A plan to mount sidewinder missiles facing backwards on aircraft for the purpose of being able to fire aft at a pursuing aircraft was developed. Unfortunately the genius that came up with it failed to take into account that a missile launched at a forward aircraft speed of 600 MPH is flying at 600 MPH backwards once it leaves the rail and before it can accelerate, a condition that said missile didn't like. Apparently the missile flipped over and locked onto the launch aircraft and proceeded to "attack" the launch aircraft. There probably wasn't a live warhead on it ( you would hope) but it would still do a lot of damage.

jeastwood
05-07-2011, 11:32 PM
I had occasion to visit the China Lake base in March, and got to visit the museum there. If you are interested in missile development, it's worth the trip.
This museum has LOTS of missles and other hardware.

Jeff E.