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View Full Version : Standard Modern Lathe Model 2000 just got home



WGonzalez2
05-19-2011, 07:10 AM
I bought this one on an online auction and is home since yesterday. It had no chuck coming with it (someone took it home from the High School Shop) and I need to make some kind of adapter to install a 4" chuck I have from the mini-lathe 5"x12".
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p1/electronmini/Standard_Modern_Lathe.jpg
Any one that can give me some pointers on how to build the adapter?
Or any other way to attach this little chuck on a temporary basis to the spindle?

The lather was manufactured in Mississauga-Ontario around 1972. It also has a 220Volts 3PH motor that I will be replacing with a 220 single phase since I need to run it on my own 4.5KW generator at the cottage.
Any suggestion on a inexpensive 220 (maybe used) motor source?

I would like to correspond with some one that has this type of lathe.

I also have this Milling machine coming next week from Peterborough (if I can transport it home).
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p1/electronmini/Milling-Machine_auction-better.jpg
Thanks, Wilson

rode2rouen
05-19-2011, 08:35 AM
I need to make some kind of adapter to install a 4" chuck I have from the mini-lathe 5"x12".

Or any other way to attach this little chuck on a temporary basis to the spindle?




Just whip up a D1-3 adapter for the 4" chuck, or use JB Weld. :rolleyes:


Rex

Dr Stan
05-19-2011, 08:38 AM
Personally I think you would be time and money ahead if you simply bought the appropriate D type adapter and a chuck. You may want to check with Anderson Tooling http://www.usedtooling.com/home.php?xid=0d8a24f3bd49f1df45ff847e883520ad to see if they may have something used that will fit your needs & budget.

Bill Pace
05-19-2011, 08:51 AM
You can get a Chinese D1-4 adapter for $40-50 ready to go from CDCO or Shars.

gwilson
05-19-2011, 09:19 AM
I have bought many an import adapter,and check them for fit with hi-spot blue against the spindle and its little taper. Haven't had 1 yet that didn't fit o.k..

gwilson
05-19-2011, 09:22 AM
I advise buyind a VFD and using it on the lathe. Cheaper than a new motor,less work,and you use 1 phase power to make the 3 phase lathe variable speed.

jep24601
05-19-2011, 09:37 AM
I advise buyind a VFD and using it on the lathe. Cheaper than a new motor,less work,and you use 1 phase power to make the 3 phase lathe variable speed.
Plus the VFD comes with a lot of other features such as the ease with which you can add safety stop push buttons anywhere you want using very light wire for the connection.

Arthur.Marks
05-19-2011, 09:49 AM
The motor thought raises a question... Is there any technical difference between standard supply 220V and that born through his 4.5kW generator? I have read that RPC generated 3PH should not be used to run a 3PH input VFD. I know this is not what the OP would do! It just makes me wonder if the balance or whatever of the two legs from a single phase generator would cause any trouble with a typical, inexpensive VFD.

WGonzalez2
05-20-2011, 07:04 AM
Personally I think you would be time and money ahead if you simply bought the appropriate D type adapter and a chuck. You may want to check with Anderson Tooling http://www.usedtooling.com/home.php?xid=0d8a24f3bd49f1df45ff847e883520ad to see if they may have something used that will fit your needs & budget.

Stan: Thanks, how do I know what type I have? Is there any place I can read about those adapters and their specifications? I have no manual for the lathe.

Thanks, Wilson

WGonzalez2
05-20-2011, 07:14 AM
Plus the VFD comes with a lot of other features such as the ease with which you can add safety stop push buttons anywhere you want using very light wire for the connection.

Many thanks to all for the VFD suggestion, It saved me from the mistake of getting a single phase motor.

Now I was overwhelmed when I read all the replies to my original request and realized that I have been really way back lagging with new technology and specially with the terminology.
For example other members in this thread referred to D Type adapters; OP (???) and I have no clue as the exact information abut these term and size. I guess I grew up outside North America and every lathe had threaded spindle for the chuck.
Any suggestion as to books or other sources in this regard?

Thanks, Wilson

form_change
05-20-2011, 07:18 AM
If you look here -
http://www.lathes.co.uk/latheparts/page9.html
At the bottom of the page there are dimensions of Camlock D fittings. By measuring you should be able to work out which one you have.

Michael

gwilson
05-20-2011, 07:47 AM
That is a very fine lathe. I wish my first lathe had been any where near that good. Take care of it and it will last you forever. Keep it oiled.

Evan
05-20-2011, 08:01 AM
How sensitive is a VFD to frequency and voltage fluctuations on the incoming power? A 4.5 kilowatt generator will exhibit large changes in both as the load varies. 4.5 kw is barely enough to handle the starting loads of a 2 or 3 hp motor. I suspect the VFD will declare an undervoltage fault when starting.

As for good deals on motors in Canada, Princess Auto is the place to shop. I recently bought a single phase 3 hp cap start/cap run motor there for $100. It was on a half price sale.

justanengineer
05-20-2011, 09:09 AM
Evan - Variation in frequency and voltage has much more to do with how you define what a 4.5kw generator is. On the average box store generator, where 4.5kw is the maximum rating at an intermittent rating (think low duty cycle), fluctuations will occur as you say. The thing to keep in mind though, is that these generators arent meant to run for very many hours at a time, and are more suited for the jobsite, campsite, rv with batteries etc. A real backup power generator (no box stores and big bucks) that is 4.5kw is physically about four times the size (normally about the size of a medium sized dog house), and usually comes with a continuous rating (99+% duty cycle). They also typically have a peak of around 7.5-10kw intermittent on a 4.5kw sized rating. Much larger engine = much less fluctuation due to that size load, so no problems. He mentioned being at a cottage, which makes me think it might be a larger, backup power sized generator being used.

Shuswap Pat
05-20-2011, 09:53 AM
Those are beautiful little lathes - they were the choice of training facilities for years, a 'QUALITY CANADIAN MADE PRODUCT'.

The spindle is D1-3, and the parts are still supported.

You can put a 1 1/2 hP single phase motor and that will draw ~~ 20 Amp @ 110 v, or 11A @ 220v - or ~~ 2300 watts. You need to allow for 'In Rush' when you switch it on.

Pat

Evan
05-20-2011, 10:15 AM
It isn't "inrush". Inrush is the current required to build a magnetic field. The starting draw of an electric motor is at least 2 to 3 times the running full load current because it is spinning up from a standstill. It is essentially beginning at a locked rotor state. If single phase it is also using a start winding that draws much greater current than the running windings. If the voltage drops the amount of time it takes to switch to the run windings is prolonged and that causes the generator to load down. That in turn reduces the voltage further which in turns prolongs that start cycle further. The generator needs to have at least twice the capacity as the motor will draw when starting, not just the running amperage.

JAE,

I am quite familar with the difference between "real" generators and the box store types. At our cabin we had a 4 cylinder Kholer with dual magnetos that weighed 650 lbs. It was rated for only 3 kw but it didn't even slow down at double that load. Probably the greatest advantage was that it was very theft resistant since you couldn't drive into the cabin. We moved it in on planks and rollers on a side hill cow path. That took a full day.

PaulT
05-20-2011, 10:31 AM
VFD's rectify the incoming AC to turn it into DC so they aren't that sensitive to the AC frequency, a VFD should work fine with the generator.

Also you can setup the VFD to do a "soft start" of the motor so it won't need as much in rush current.

Paul T.
www.power-t.com

Arthur.Marks
05-20-2011, 12:24 PM
For example other members in this thread referred to... OP (???) and I have no clue as the exact information abut these term and size.
I think that was me :o OP in an internet forum context (such as this webpage) is an abbreviation for Original Poster. In other words, the person that started the discussion, you :)

WGonzalez2
05-21-2011, 10:27 PM
That is a very fine lathe. I wish my first lathe had been any where near that good. Take care of it and it will last you forever. Keep it oiled.

gwilson: Well... the truth is that my very first lathe was home-made by me. I machined at work during my lunch time (and making sure the foreman did not see me) a U channel 4" wide and imagine the rest.

My second I did a little better. Got a Monach exactly like the one on this picture. Took it home in pieces with my dad in 1998. Bought it for $1000 and had it in the garage for 2 years. Sold it for $1000 in year 2000 when my dad passed away and I moved.
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p1/electronmini/Monarch_Lathe.jpg

Moved again in 2004 and bought a Clausing lathe 12" x 36" in reasonable shape and I have it in my garage (Texas). Same year my girlfriend gave me a Harbor Freight 5"x12" (B'Day present) that I have here in my cottage (Muskoka-Canada).

Now this Standard Modern is my last addition to play while I spend the summer here (March-November).
Thanks for the comments.
Wilson G

WGonzalez2
05-21-2011, 10:43 PM
If you look here -
http://www.lathes.co.uk/latheparts/page9.html
At the bottom of the page there are dimensions of Camlock D fittings. By measuring you should be able to work out which one you have.

Michael
Michael:
Thanks a lot, I will measure tomorrow and order from Shars, I saw the D1-4 for $58. It does not pay to make it.

Wilson G.

WGonzalez2
05-21-2011, 10:47 PM
How sensitive is a VFD to frequency and voltage fluctuations on the incoming power? A 4.5 kilowatt generator will exhibit large changes in both as the load varies. 4.5 kw is barely enough to handle the starting loads of a 2 or 3 hp motor. I suspect the VFD will declare an undervoltage fault when starting.

As for good deals on motors in Canada, Princess Auto is the place to shop. I recently bought a single phase 3 hp cap start/cap run motor there for $100. It was on a half price sale.
\Hummm...... good question and tomorrow I will try to see what it does. I cab check with a Digital Voltmeter (cheap) and I do not know if it has a quick display refresh to be able yo see. I will post.
Thanks and I will hold on ordering a VFD since it may not work. You may have same me from another mistake!
Wilson G

WGonzalez2
05-21-2011, 10:53 PM
Evan - Variation in frequency and voltage has much more to do with how you define what a 4.5kw generator is. On the average box store generator, where 4.5kw is the maximum rating at an intermittent rating (think low duty cycle), fluctuations will occur as you say. The thing to keep in mind though, is that these generators arent meant to run for very many hours at a time, and are more suited for the jobsite, campsite, rv with batteries etc. A real backup power generator (no box stores and big bucks) that is 4.5kw is physically about four times the size (normally about the size of a medium sized dog house), and usually comes with a continuous rating (99+% duty cycle). They also typically have a peak of around 7.5-10kw intermittent on a 4.5kw sized rating. Much larger engine = much less fluctuation due to that size load, so no problems. He mentioned being at a cottage, which makes me think it might be a larger, backup power sized generator being used.

Unfortunately this is a $450 buck generator I utilize for the electric shower and other large loads that my 2,800 watts cannot handle. It is run by a 6.5HP (I think, too dark now to go out) and the cottage is not one of those luxurious homes. Just a little more than a cabin (unfinished).

Is the electric motor you bought 220 Volts single phase? I may want o get one instead of the VFD.

I will hope for the best...
Thanks, Wilson G.

WGonzalez2
05-21-2011, 11:01 PM
I think that was me :o OP in an internet forum context (such as this webpage) is an abbreviation for Original Poster. In other words, the person that started the discussion, you :)

Arthur: Thanks for the explanation and some times I thing that I am going backwards...I cannot keep up with all the stuff that is going on or getting older is making a dent (72 and going)

I laugh last year when I learnt what was a "fling"...
Thanks for your patience,
Wilson G.

WGonzalez2
05-21-2011, 11:08 PM
VFD's rectify the incoming AC to turn it into DC so they aren't that sensitive to the AC frequency, a VFD should work fine with the generator.

Also you can setup the VFD to do a "soft start" of the motor so it won't need as much in rush current.

Paul T.
www.power-t.com

Paul: It makes sense to me know that I remember reading that the VFD first rectify the incoming AC to a DC, then it converts it again to AC at a variable frequency to vary the rotational field that is the basis of the RPM's.

Now, if the generator fluctuates it would affect the DC momentarily. Would that affect the output AC as well?
Unless there is a storage device like a super high capacitor or batteries It seems that the VFD could have problems.

Does it makes sense?

Thanks, Wilson G.

Evan
05-22-2011, 12:15 AM
The motor I bought is single phase 220 vac. I just checked the PA flyers and there is nothing on sale right now. It was a heck of a deal for $100. They go on sale fairly often but that doesn't help you right now. A capacitor start/ capacitor run motor is probably the best type for your application since it isn't nearly as sensitive to fluctuations in the power as a regular single pahse capacitor start only motor. They are easy to tell since they have two separate capacitors mounted on the housing.

Evan
05-22-2011, 12:28 AM
Simple test/question: Do the lights dim a lot when an electric motor starts now? Does the rpm of the generator vary significantly (even momentarily) when the load changes a lot? If you have a heavy resistance load like a hot plate that you can attach you won't have to worry about the response time of the meter. You can extrapolate the load by multiplying the drop on 1000 watts by about 4 to 6 times for a 2hp motor starting.

Incidentally, if you can add a large flywheel to the generator it will help a lot with momentary loads and voltage drop. They really skimp on the heavy items on the cheap generators because weight is the most expensive part of those type of products. The Kohler I had had a flywheel that must have weighed 50 lbs as part of the alternator.

darryl
05-22-2011, 05:29 AM
Being able to program a soft start into a vfd sure seems like a way to get around the high starting current draw problem. My gut feeling is that you'll have more of a problem if you load the motor down while machining, when you might be dropping the voltage and causing the vfd to fault out. Most of the time you won't be using the full power of the motor, so once it's running your generator should be fine with it.

You already have the 3 ph motor- most people would probably say keep it and use a vfd with it. If it were me, if the vfd could be programmed for soft start, I'd probably give it a go and cross my fingers that it would work out ok. 3 ph motors do run smoothly and usually quietly, moreso than single ph anyway.

jugs
05-22-2011, 06:55 AM
As already stated, stick with the 3ph motor + soft start inverter.
Once running a 3hp motor does not draw 3hp untill it's fully loaded so you can do light work in the short term,


but that genset is to small -

get/make - at least 7.5kVA water cooled (heat shop & house for free) genset, if you have accses to timber run it on wood gas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6URPC1YPKM&feature=related

john
:)

WGonzalez2
05-22-2011, 02:07 PM
The motor I bought is single phase 220 vac. I just checked the PA fliers and there is nothing on sale right now. It was a heck of a deal for $100. They go on sale fairly often but that doesn't help you right now. A capacitor start/ capacitor run motor is probably the best type for your application since it isn't nearly as sensitive to fluctuations in the power as a regular single phase capacitor start only motor. They are easy to tell since they have two separate capacitors mounted on the housing.

Yep...I looked up today and they call them: Farm Motors, no wander I could not find any. But it was $290 !!!!!
I will wait.
Thanks, Wilson G.

WGonzalez2
05-22-2011, 02:49 PM
[LEFT]As already stated,........... if you have accses to timber run it on wood gas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6URPC1YPKM&feature=related

john
:)

John: Very cool video and something I could use for sure. My grand parents had a g charcoal gasifier during the II wold war and run their car like that. A lost technology as I can see it.

If I am granted one or two more lifetimes in earth I will definitely explore that!

My 3 phase electric motor that came with the lathe is 3/4 HP and I think ti will be a little underpowered since I am now utilizing a 1 HP (single phase, 120 Volts) and I can feel I could use more power.

Thanks, Wilson G.

Evan
05-22-2011, 03:23 PM
You mentioned you thought that the motor on the genset was 6.5 hp. That doesn't add up to 4.5 KW output. If it was 100 percent efficient with zero losses anywhere that converts to 4847 watts. Unfortunately this is like vacuum cleaner horsepower. In the real world the motor doesn't put out 6.5 horspower and the genset is at best maybe 80% efficient, probably more like 60 percent. Real life output is more like 2500 watts. If it is wound with aluminum wire (likely) the the surge capability will be poor. The advertised wattage is basically a scam. It may not have the capability to start anything more than maybe 1 hp.

Mooser66
05-24-2011, 07:18 PM
Hi
I've got one of the series 2000 11" lathes. Converted it to CNC a while back but have been using it for years.
The head is a D1-4 (or should be) mount. Best bet is to buy an adapter and machine it to fit your chuck, 6" is right for the lathe, I've also got a 8" 4-jaw and it's a little big. (the 5C collet chuck is nice though)
I run a 220v 3ph with the vfd since I needed it for the CNC, I've got the 220v single phase motor here in a box, if your still looking maybe we can work something out.
I've also got an electronic manual for the machine (pdf format) if I can I'll dig it out.
Let me know if you need anything else
Regards
Mooser

WGonzalez2
05-27-2011, 07:15 AM
Hi
I've got one of the series 2000 11" lathes. Converted it to CNC a while back but have been using it for years.
The head is a D1-4 (or should be) mount. Best bet is to buy an adapter and machine it to fit your chuck, 6" is right for the lathe, I've also got a 8" 4-jaw and it's a little big. (the 5C collet chuck is nice though)
I run a 220v 3ph with the vfd since I needed it for the CNC, I've got the 220v single phase motor here in a box, if your still looking maybe we can work something out.
I've also got an electronic manual for the machine (pdf format) if I can I'll dig it out.
Let me know if you need anything else
Regards
Mooser
Mooser

I ordered the Allen Bradley VFD from a website and maybe here in a week or two. If it does not work I will get back to you for the motor you have. I sent you a PM, please check it out.
Also I would like to take a look at the manual if possible.
Do you have any pictures of your converted to CNC?
Thanks, Wilson G.

ammcoman2
05-27-2011, 07:54 AM
Hi there.

A bit late coming in on this thread but my excuse is that I was away on a trip - now back home so I can relax again.

I have the same lathe (1968 vintage) and it has a D1-4 camlock. I have a 3/4hp, 220v, 3 phase motor on it (with a Teco-Westinhouse VFD) and it is plenty powerful. One of the advantages of the VFD is that you can ramp up the motor as slowly as you like. This should minimize current inrush for your gen-set.

My lathe came with a 1hp single phase "farm duty" motor and one of the disadvantages is the very high starting ramp up speed. (These motors are designed to be able to start a fully loaded grain auger). The gear box would bang very loudly on startup. Now it is very smooth on a .75 second ramp.

Geoff