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A.K. Boomer
06-03-2011, 12:15 PM
Last night one of my dogs woke me up @ about 1:30 am and she was in severe pain, nothing external - this coincides with her getting fleas about two or three days ago and my dogs never get fleas unless one thing happens - they kill something...

so at first she's yelping from a dead sleep and wakes me up and It's scaring me to death as I can't figure out what's going on and what it could be then my brain kicks in with the flea's a few days ago and I formed a hypothesis that she has killed another squirrel and has chomped down a bunch of broken bones and they are moving through her intestines - when she kills a squirrel she eats everything, even the tail - there is no proof until it comes out the other end.

So I called the vet first thing this morning after staying up all night long with her - (she's ok most of the time if she doesn't try to move around to much)

First off let me say that I know my dogs and when I put things together with them it is what it is - its not my imagination or anything - things like my dogs getting fleas is direct evidence of something like what I stated - they do not see other dogs except other family dogs .
So I tell the vet all about it and he asks if I witnessed her eating a squirrel and I stated "not this time" He then says he does not know what it could be causing her pain and doubts that its due to her eating a squirrel because she's big enough to where it most likely would not bother her, he asked if she'll eat and I stated that's one of the questions I was going to ask him if it was ok to feed her and he said yes and added if she eats it may not be that bad of a thing but if symptoms persist to bring her in.


I asked just in case im right if there's something I can feed her to help loosen and push things through and he said give her a can of pumpkin so I did along with her breakfast and about 15 minutes ago she dropped a bomb in the yard --- nothing real strange yet but one sharp 1/2" bone fragment but no fur or anything else - bone fragment may or may not have come from old soup bones laying in the yard - and she seems a little better but still is going through pain when she changes position.

Has anything like this happened to anyone else - what do you guys think, Im trashed and had to take off work today - it's terrifying to have one of your buddies crying for help and they can't tell you what's wrong - she was scared to death and her heart was pounding so hard it was shaking the floor.

The only other variable I can think of is I put three drops of flea killer on her two or three days ago - she's had the exact same treatment whenever this happens and that's all it take to get rid of the fleas.
This is a dog that has been totally 100% maintenance free for 11 years now and I really cannot afford a vet esp. if they go on a wild goose chase and rack up a bill for no reason.
She's had all her shots along the way and heartguard treatments. Thanks.

Krunch
06-03-2011, 12:31 PM
Sorry to hear of your friend's problems. I love dogs, too.

Is there any chance she hurt herself while chasing the squirrel, and that's what's causing the pain? Is she walking OK?

You said she's 11 yrs old and also that "she's big enough that a squirrel shouldn't be a problem" which makes me wonder whether she's a Lab or some other breed that commonly has hip problems ... does she have trouble getting up after lying down ?

Sorry I don't have much to offer...I've had numerous dogs that would eat squirrels pretty much whole – "nothing but net!" – and fortunately never had a problem.

I hope everything works out for you and your dog. Pls let us know how it's going.

A good online resource is the (free) Merck Veterinary Manual at

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp

Good luck.

Evan
06-03-2011, 12:46 PM
The only way to tell if she has a bone in gut problem is X ray or Cat scan. Cat scan is much better and will also show up a twisted gut too. Both are expensive, especially the cat scan. It's your call.

Your Old Dog
06-03-2011, 01:14 PM
Boomer, sorry to hear about your bud. My Labs have acted like that at 13 years when their liver started to fail. My bud Phred laid on the the floor on his side with me laying behind him as he shook violently. The following morning he jumped up into the car like a young dog when I had to take him in to be put to sleep. You didn't say what kind of dog your bud was but 12 to 13 years is about what a Lab will go. I know someone out there probably knows someone with one that made it to a hundred but in the main, you get 13 yrs out of a Lab and he's had a good life. Phreddy was given two leases on life when they gave him some shots, I think it was cortizone but not positive. Good luck bro.

Evan
06-03-2011, 01:27 PM
My beardog is on her last legs now. She is epileptic and the meds aren't working very well any more. She is having seizures when she is sleeping and the last one a couple of weeks ago almost killed her. She had another small one two days ago and it set her back again but not near as bad as the one before. She doesn't have long. The next big seizure will be the last. She is my best friend and it is killing me to watch her go through this. It makes her helpless and for her that is a psychological nightmare. She is a control freak and being helpless is as bad as it gets.

Black_Moons
06-03-2011, 01:53 PM
Iv seen a lot of people spending thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars on thier old dogs vet bills, get surgery, etc... Only to result in the dog living a month or two in pain, then dying anyway, if they even live that long.

I know its a member of your family, And you'll do whatever you can.. But an old dog is an old dog, most can't even survive the stress of surgury, or recover if they do surive. Even if they do recover, who knows what else might pop up in just a few months.

IMO, the best thing you can do is be with the dog. Comfert it. Keep it at home, Don't stress it out with vet visits, no dog likes the vet. If the vet says changing his diet could improve things, Follow it. likey be a lot more expensive then his regular food, but still cheaper then most vet operations. And maybe try and keep the dog away from squirrels/bones in the future if they are not chewing them finely enough.

If he lives, you got a wonderful dog for a few more years.
If he does not, you made his last days the best you could. Thats all they really want. Your affection. To know you are there for them, in ways they can understand.

PS: Some vets will do housecalls to put a dog down when its time. I think this is much nicer then draging him down to the vet.

PPS: On a lighter side of things, How about a heart touching recover story?

I used to have an orange cat, moris.. friendlyest little cat ever. You could poke him in his sleep and he would start purring before he even woke up. ]

One day he crawled in, draging his hind legs, compleatly unable to move them. We lived next to horses, so he might of been kicked. We moved him around in a box for about 2 weeks.. taking him outside into the soft garden dirt to go to the bathroom... One day I left my parents to watch him for 1/2 hour as I did something else... come back

"...WHERES THE CAT????"
parents shrug
"HOW COULD YOU OF LET A HALF PARALAYZED CAT RUN AWAY???"
Much distressed emotions and swareing... crying.. etc.

3 weeks later.. still thinking every day about him.. looking at the cat door.. just wishing he could come through like he allways used to... Then.. *flip flop*.... huu.. what??? A GHOST??? no wait.. its my cat!

cat walks up to the counter (food bowl was on top the counter, still had other cats so it was still full as usalle)... And trys to jump up to it! using his back legs! .. he made it about 2" off the ground, so skinny he looked like a couple toothpicks. I instantly picked him up in tears and stuck him right next to his food bowl... He pertty much cleaned it out in one sitting!

Over the next 5 weeks, he recovered most of his weight and strength, and pertty much acted like it never happened 2 months later.. though maybe he seemed a little more afraid of heights. I think he lasted for a couple years after that.

Amazing how animals can recover when left alone to thier own devices... Sometimes they crawl off to die.. Sometimes they crawl off to recover, and do recover.. from things that should'nt be recoverable from.

Vet would of likey told me to put the cat down.

A.K. Boomer
06-03-2011, 02:31 PM
Thanks everyone for the advice and concern --- she's resting under the back deck - she has a hole dug and she lays there on hot days - I peeked under there and she stretched and looked calm so let a sleeping dog lay, I cannot take it if she goes through pain so this is a big break and Im going to try and sneak in a nap, for those who asked she's half pit and I don't know what else - not that tall of a dog but full figured lots of muscle and she's been in excellent health, with no joint problems at all, her sister (who is actually not her real sister) is 15 now and her health is poor.

anyways thanks and I'll keep you guys posted - she is a shop dog too so not that far off topic;)

thanks B moons - nice story.

flylo
06-03-2011, 03:44 PM
I feel your pain. We have a old dog that just showed up about 14 yrs ago. He was from a wild dog litter & couldn't be 5 weeks old yet. He's so mean to strangers I have to keep him & a pen between the house & hanger. He body slams the pen wire when anyone but family goes by. Best watch dog God ever made. Now he's old & tired but every night he up & doing his job. Several times this year I've thought he was dead & it scares me every time. I'll call Buster several times & just when I think he's gone he opens his eyes & get up. It will be an awful day when he doesn't.
Good luck,I hope your old friend recovers fully. Please let us know. Thanks!

becksmachine
06-03-2011, 04:08 PM
If she did eat something with a lot of indigestible material, eg. hair, teeth etc. a real possibility is pancreatitis.
As I understand it, the pancreas overproduces digestive juices to try to digest the indigestible material and the juices end up attacking the gut itself. It is characterized by a tender/painful abdomen.

My best buddy (56 pounds) got this after making sure that no part of that 25 pound marmot was going to waste. Probably took him 2 days to do it, this after letting it ferment for a week or so.
He got over it after a visit to the vet, and lived for another 5 or 6 years before he had to get buried out by the shop. Hardest day in my life so far. So I know what you mean about feeling torn up. :(

Dave

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b422/becksmachine/oink/th_OinkDaver.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/albums/b422/becksmachine/oink/?action=view&current=OinkDaver.jpg)

Willy
06-03-2011, 04:27 PM
Wish I could be of more help my friend.
Watching your buddy suffer and at the same time being totally helpless because you don't know what is going on sucks big time. I've been there too and it has got to be one of the most helpless states I've ever had the misfortune to be in.

Like BM said keep her comfortable, and keep a sharp eye on all of her actions no matter how insignificant they my seem and jot them down with the time they occurred in a notebook while they are still fresh in your mind. It may give the vet some needed info to help you both to piece it together.

About 10 years ago I had an incident with my dog when someone ran over him. I watched him go under the front cross member which was quite low, and then saw him get ground and rolled into the pavement, as first the cross member then the oil pan and transmission slid over him. He got up, looked at me and headed my way. The pickup he was under was still moving, and as my buddy tried to crawl out the back end of the truck ran over him just in front of his back legs.
At this point I told my wife to grab a gun because i did not want to see him suffer. I didn't know how I was going to do it but I knew it had to be done.

By the time I ran to him he had already gotten up and he shakily walked my way. After a good look see I could tell he was going to be alright. Within two hours he spotted a truck that looked like a friend of mine's that he liked and immediately ran towards the gate! He was some sore for a couple of days but otherwise fine.

The gist of this story is that dogs and cats are pretty tough critters, they have an ability to survive some pretty horrific stuff that would take most of us out.
Keep an eye out for your buddy though as needs you now.

Evan, my neighbor's dog just came down with epilepsy, I know what your going through, tough thing to watch.

spope14
06-03-2011, 09:29 PM
Have your vet check for pancraetitis. Sounds like what my dog has gone through many a time now. Very painful, but can be worked out. Happens when they get into something bad that they eat, and does not necessarily cure itself. May also be cushings disease, which is its own "animal", but has hope.

Pancreatis will scare the crap out of you, you will think you are losing your friend, and if no action is taken, it could be a long term problem.

Background on this answer, my dog is 11 years old, was abused badly before we got her, several broken bones, almost lost her three times in the first five weeks we had her. Had to adjust diets due to being far overweight (2.5 X normal weight), and have almost lost her four times in the past five years. Lost the weight, got the cushings under control, eats everything in sight, which is bad...bad... We keep a strict diet now, have weight to right at optimum, almost 12 years old now, just like a new dog. Many a night with a shaking and screaming dog, but we catch it early now. The problems come when "garbage dog" gets into something she should not (Reading your post, squirrels, sudden onset, pain), pancreas problems.

Take your dog to the vet ASAP, hopefully the answer is as simple as this. Cushings is a big thing in pure breads or breeds with terrier in them.

A.K. Boomer
06-03-2011, 11:54 PM
Thanks all - Im going to re-read in the morning to make sure I didn't miss anything - that pancreatis makes sense and am going to check into it.

Willy's story gave me the willies as I witnessed the same thing with a dog on the road but at least his story had a happy ending - the dog I seen hobbled off into the brush and I went looking for him but never found him - the thing is the lady driving almost completely stopped for him but kept driving real slow thinking it would get out of the way - it was terrible to witness.

Talked to another vet and she stated the same thing that the squirrel bones are not cooked and are actually soft and should not be a bunch of splinters and should not give the dog as much trouble as all the fur and the potential blockage form it, so - another can of pumpkin and she said an aspirin and a laxitive - the aspirin seems to have taken off the edge, im off for another attempt at beddy bye.. thanks everyone - really helped to talk about it.

HWooldridge
06-04-2011, 12:08 AM
We own both working cowdogs and house dogs. Your pup might have poked a hole in its stomach but they can heal from that. We had a cowdog eat some glass once (God knows why) - it cut her up internally but she healed and went on to live a long life. I've also had dogs get bitten by rattlesnakes and survive without antivenin. I am a big fan of plain water and scrambled eggs - lots of fluid and protein seems to fix them up pretty fast. Good luck and we're praying for you.

spope14
06-04-2011, 07:14 PM
Hey Boomer, whatever happens, please let us know and I want to know you are in our thoughts.

Willy
06-04-2011, 11:36 PM
Hey Boomer, whatever happens, please let us know and I want to know you are in our thoughts.

X 12....:)

A.K. Boomer
06-04-2011, 11:54 PM
Thanks Spope, If thoughts can somehow reach across the barriers and "fix" things then I owe you guys big time,
My hypothesis was incorrect - This morning Maggie dropped a big pumpkin bomb and all that was in there was typical dog food, pumpkin and ground flax that I added to help bulk the pumpkin and push everything through - there were no squirrel parts or hair or feathers or anything - so I have no idea where the fleas came from and they were not there one day and there the next in droves ---------- ?

anyways - she seemed to feel a little better and just rested after that - some mild whimpers when she got up or sat down or tried to lie down to get comfortable but nothing like before - you would have thought her pelvis was cracked in half,

so then about noon I hear her charging the fence in the backyard cuz someones walking their dog by on the other side and Im saying WTF?

so I take her to see if she can climb up and down the basement steps and she didn't run like she normally does but went up them no prob and no pain,
So then I ask her if she wants to "go to the river" and her ears perk up and she starts pacing - we get her sis and she actually hopped into the back of the CRV without any help!
we get to the river and she jumps in! Im saying dammit I wish I had my camera so I could send you guys a pic, oh well - home is just a couple miles away so I go get the camera and head back - the first pic is her and the rest are her and her sis and then the royal gorge train went bye so I got a pic of it for all the train buffs,
thanks for all the good thoughts guys - I have no Idea what was wrong with her but im looking foreword to a good nights sleep (i hope) tonight,
Im not afraid to say that last night this agnostic was on his knees crying asking god to help my little girl - maybe he did - I could not take it hearing her scream in agony - I wish I could have taken it for her, every bit of it,

You guys hug your dogs and yes even cats lol - hug your family and give your wife a kiss... I hope all of you with ill pets and family have the luck I seem to have just had.
This thing we call life is very fragile, a couple days ago I thought my dog was going to die in my arms.




Here's Maggie today,

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r249/AK_Boomer/DSC01889.jpg

her and her sis,

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r249/AK_Boomer/DSC01895.jpg

the "pig" in the water

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r249/AK_Boomer/DSC01884.jpg

and the royal gorge train

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r249/AK_Boomer/DSC01900.jpg

snowman
06-05-2011, 04:15 AM
Ok, so I have to say, reading this thread is a lot like sitting through an episode of American Choppers or some other TV show where everything advertised is dead wrong, even though it might get the job done.

I work in the veterinary field, have for four years.

You go to your vet if for nothing else, pain medication. Aspirin is not a pain medication, tramadol is a pain medication (synthetic morphine). Aspirin is an NSAID, and for a dog that could possible have pancreatitis, would be contraindicated. Aspirins use also means that you can't use effective NSAIDS for seven days, without a much higher risk of gastric ulcers. Tramadol can almost always be used alongside any illness for pain. We hand it out to our patients like it's candy at holloween.

Now, as an emergency hospital, I see a lot of clients that have no money. Not having money isn't wrong, it's a reality of the times. Our policies as a hospital allow one pain injection, even if the client cannot pay. A dog sitting at home, not being stressed out by a vet visit, suffering in pain, is pure romanticism. Their nerve pathways, their pathology of pain, is the exact same as ours....they feel the pain the same as we do, so why wouldn't you want to treat it the same way we do?

So, I'm glad your dog got better...but next time call the vet. Be straightforward, you don't have money to do diagnostics, but you don't want your friend to be in pain. They may require that you pay for a physical exam....but if they won't treat the pain without determining what is actually wrong (meaning you spending tons of money), you get out the phonebook and find a new vet. Bloodwork is NOT required prior to using tramadol, or any of the opiates. (in the US, tramadol is not a controlled substance, it may be elsewhere)

Evan....talk to your vet. We will occasionally send home injectable valium (in a glass container, it is absorbed into plastic) to be given rectally (via syringe and a tomcat catheter) in the event of a big seizure. It can be a lifesaver. Also, if you have been treating the epilepsy with phenobarbitol, you can add Potassium Bromide or switch entirely to a drug like zonisamide. The zonisamide is expensive, but works quite well.

A.K. Boomer
06-05-2011, 05:50 AM
Dunno Snowman both vets asked me a few questions too, like her appetite and if she was throwing up or had the runs so maybe they kinda already covered the pancreatitis thing, the key factor here was everything was totally normal - I was very thorough in telling them that - nothing out of the ordinary and then from a dead sleep she started screaming - at first I thought she had some kind of terrible nightmare till it continued and made worse by her movement.
I thought I had it pegged because of putting two and two together and although most things are at rest when a dogs sleeping the peristaltic action of the intestines are not - it all seemed to add up but now im thinking pinched nerve or something.
So maybe the last vet did pretty good with telling me to administer aspirin due to its anti-inflammatory properties (does the tramodol do that?) as she thought pancreatitis was a non-issue, although she did emphasis enteric coated.
And even though you say its not a pain medication I can tell you its effect against the pain was within 1/2 hour - not totally - but it took most of the edge off it,
One thing for sure - I called her 10 minutes before closing on friday and she took the time to hear me out and told me what to do and then said good luck with it, So she's getting a thank you call first thing monday morning.;)

Another thing for sure is if I go through this again I will take the exact same actions as far as the aspirin goes.

Evan
06-05-2011, 06:00 AM
The problem now is that we don't know when she is having a seizure. It is happening as she sleeps. When she has a grand mal she simply stiffens up completely, no thrashing around. It's affecting her spinal nerves and she is losing control of her hip muscles. I know for sure that the hip problem is neuropathic because when she is lying down and trying to clean herself she can't lift her leg up sideways. She get pissed at the leg and shoves her nose under the knee and flips it up in the air. She also loses her vision in her right eye when she has a siezure and her hearing is also affected. She is getting brain damage from lack of oxygen during the attacks. So far it hasn't altered her personality and the Beardog is still in there. This is unusual since it most often affects the cerebellum first.

I have discussed it at length with the vet. She is on phenobarb and gabapentin right now but it isn't stopping the siezures. She has been on phenobarb for over ten years and has a high resistance to the med. There isn't much that can be done. When she has a bad siezure she stops eating and drinking completely. I had to force feed her glucose, salt and water the last big one to stop her dehydrating and she wouldn't eat for 4 days.

A.K. Boomer
06-05-2011, 06:14 AM
Im sorry to hear that Evan - don't give up looking for answers though,

even if its recognizing some kind of pattern that sets her off more and doing everything possible to avoid it, anything but giving up hope. Does it happen more when its warm? good luck to you and bear dog.

I did not know they were still treating EP, with phenobarb and am surprised due to all the other complications is causes.

Black Forest
06-05-2011, 09:31 AM
I absolutely think you should not have a dog! You say you are so upset about the pain your dog is in but then say you don't want to spend money on a vet.

Bullshjt. You have a responsibility to do what is right for your animals if you have one. From the sounds of what you wrote your dog was really in pain. No vet can diagnose over the phone. No good vet will try to do that.

Your dog deserves better than what you did. If you don't have the money to properly take care of your animals you shouldn't have one. Period no discussion. If you don't have the money you should have talked to the vet and told him and see what you could have worked out. Most vets will work with you on the bill.

Your dog was in agony and you wouldn't take it to the vet because of money. I think that is absolutely unconscionable.

And all of you on here commiserating with him should be ashamed of yourselves.

chrisfournier
06-05-2011, 10:09 AM
I absolutely think you should not have a dog! You say you are so upset about the pain your dog is in but then say you don't want to spend money on a vet.

Bullshjt. You have a responsibility to do what is right for your animals if you have one. From the sounds of what you wrote your dog was really in pain. No vet can diagnose over the phone. No good vet will try to do that.

Your dog deserves better than what you did. If you don't have the money to properly take care of your animals you shouldn't have one. Period no discussion. If you don't have the money you should have talked to the vet and told him and see what you could have worked out. Most vets will work with you on the bill.

Your dog was in agony and you wouldn't take it to the vet because of money. I think that is absolutely unconscionable.

And all of you on here commiserating with him should be ashamed of yourselves.


Thanks for taking the time to post such an opinionated, insightful and helpful thought.

Well it was opinionated.

It's clear to me that the OP loves his pets and takes good care of them. Perhaps he was hesitant to take his gal to the vet because he was dreading the possibility of very bad news and money was not the issue; just fear of a parting of ways will a true friend. I certainly have dreaded a trip to the vet for this very reason.

I seem to reacall a big woe is me thread of yours about machines, great deal, money and lawyers. We all listened to your shjt and many were supportive of your plight. Maybe you should try it too; support I mean. If you can't then why not sit on your hands and take a time out rather than posting outright crap like this?

Black Forest
06-05-2011, 10:47 AM
I stand by what I wrote wholeheartedly.

You wrote: Perhaps he was hesitant to take his gal to the vet because he was dreading the possibility of very bad news and money was not the issue;

So the fact that he was dreading maybe hearing bad news gives him the right to let his dog suffer? Not in my world. He stated money was the reason he didn't take the dog to the vet. That was not my idea. Maybe the vet couldn't do anything but at least a painkiller of the correct kind was in order.

As to support, yeah, I support the dog. Why because the dog has no say in this as to what happens. The man has the entire respondsibility to do the right thing.

As to supporting me. The machines I wanted and didn't get were not in pain.

I see this king of thing all the time with animal "lovers".

A.K. Boomer
06-05-2011, 11:13 AM
I absolutely think you should not have a dog! You say you are so upset about the pain your dog is in but then say you don't want to spend money on a vet.

Bullshjt. You have a responsibility to do what is right for your animals if you have one. From the sounds of what you wrote your dog was really in pain. No vet can diagnose over the phone. No good vet will try to do that.

Your dog deserves better than what you did. If you don't have the money to properly take care of your animals you shouldn't have one. Period no discussion. If you don't have the money you should have talked to the vet and told him and see what you could have worked out. Most vets will work with you on the bill.

Your dog was in agony and you wouldn't take it to the vet because of money. I think that is absolutely unconscionable.

And all of you on here commiserating with him should be ashamed of yourselves.


You simply don't have a clue and jump to all kinds of conclusions without knowing any of the facts - fact one is I said NOTHING to either vets about my financial situation, I just stated the facts and they told me what to do - there was ZERO talk about not being able to bring her in due to money issues - even though that is the case if it got real spendy - Iv also been given advice from many friends and some have also stated in these posts to not fall into the trap of doing all you can possibly do as some people have paid great money to put their pets through a living hell before they die, the first vet stated that if she's eating then it does not sound all that bad but if the pain persist to bring her in - the second stated basically the same thing and "give it some time"
This is also the first time iv been in this situation and really don't know what to do - hence my post on here and calling all my friends who own pets and calling two vets.
I did not even know you could give aspirins to dogs so this was a big help and made a world of difference - had I not made the call to find out what to do I would not have known - neither one of them said to "rush her in" not one word of it - one is my long time vet where I get them regular checkups and shots and buy their heartguard and the other is a vet lady that my old GF recommended - so somehow you think I should have said they were wrong and I need drugs - that's not the way I function with myself and it's not the way I function with my dogs - yes we are a little old school here - all it takes is spending 5 g's in one day and getting a shoulder shrug of "i don't know" to make a guy a little jaded in this area -- yes I do need to keep a roof over their heads also or they will simply be gassed - yes I did save one from being gassed in the first place and saved the other from being beaten to death and/or poisoned by anti-freeze by it's previous owner - one dog has almost lived its entire expected lifespan/existence out WITHOUT INCIDENT and the other over 2/3rds WITHOUT INCIDENT yet you have the audacity to state that I should not even have a dog. yet I kept them safe all these years...
Same applies for me, im not going to drain funds that I don't even have for all my aches and pains and then end up having to take the girls into the human society cuz I don't have a house anymore, that's just plain counterproductive and gets everyone killed:rolleyes:

had I had it to do over again I wish I would have called the other vet first because then the aspirin would have been given that morning instead of later - had I had it to do over again now I would not even wait to call the vet and an aspirin would be given within the first minute, never been in this situation before, like I stated both kids were 100% maintenance free for all these years.

also - like I stated - don't try to trump a good vet or you could come off sounding pretty stupid - the Gal who told me to try an aspirin might just have had her act together way beyond a simple pain killer and in fact it appears that the move was nothing short of genius.

Arcane
06-05-2011, 12:33 PM
..........So maybe the last vet did pretty good with telling me to administer aspirin due to its anti-inflammatory properties (does the tramodol do that?) as she thought pancreatitis was a non-issue, although she did emphasis enteric coated..............
I read that as meaning she recommended using enteric coated aspirin. From what I have been able to find about it, enteric coated aspirin is a no-no. From http://www.k911.biz/Petsafety/AspirinTylenolIbuprophenDangers.htm
Enteric coated aspirin will not dissolve until it passes through the stomach and into the small intestine.

* The information below regarding enteric coated aspirin has been presented at the ACVIM (American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine) and published in literature for students.

Enteric coating of aspirin has become popular in human products but is a problem in animals and creates unpredictable absorption. It becomes dangerous when the dog's GI tract accumulates enteric coated aspirin tablets which do not digest in the stomach and instead collect in the intestines until a toxic dose is reached resulting in aspirin toxicity.

To avoid this disaster, use either aspirin made specifically for pets or aspirin with a powdery covering "buffered" rather than the “hard candy” type enteric coating.

An enteric coating is a barrier applied to oral medication that controls the location in the digestive system where it is absorbed. Enteric refers to the small intestine, therefore enteric coatings prevent release of medication before it reaches the small intestine.

Most enteric coatings work by presenting a surface that is stable at the highly acidic pH found in the stomach, but breaks down rapidly at a less acidic (relatively more basic) pH. For example, they will not dissolve in the acidic juices of the stomach (pH ~3), but they will in the higher pH (above pH 5.5) environment present in the small intestine.

Alistair Hosie
06-05-2011, 01:17 PM
My advice is to keep bones away from dogs especially chicken or that sort of size it causes them some real rectal problems in the long run.I just don't give my dogs bones at all .Although I recognize they can use great big bones for gnawing at and it's good for their teeth,.Smaller type bones are a problem in the waiting.IMHO Alistair

snowman
06-05-2011, 01:29 PM
I absolutely think you should not have a dog! You say you are so upset about the pain your dog is in but then say you don't want to spend money on a vet.

Bullshjt. You have a responsibility to do what is right for your animals if you have one. From the sounds of what you wrote your dog was really in pain. No vet can diagnose over the phone. No good vet will try to do that.

Your dog deserves better than what you did. If you don't have the money to properly take care of your animals you shouldn't have one. Period no discussion. If you don't have the money you should have talked to the vet and told him and see what you could have worked out. Most vets will work with you on the bill.

Your dog was in agony and you wouldn't take it to the vet because of money. I think that is absolutely unconscionable.

And all of you on here commiserating with him should be ashamed of yourselves.

There are a lot of reasons people don't take their animals to the vet. One thing that is not understood well is the process of grief in pet owners. In a situation where you make the decision to euthanize vs. letting nature take it's course, you are already moving through the stages of grief prior to even stepping foot in the building, or making the decision.

The judgement that you have made is not an appropriate one, nor is it yours to make. You first of all have to understand that animals are property, and everyone treats their property differently. It's obvious that AK cares about his dog and wanted to do right by it, and that passes the test for me. His ability or desire to pay has no bearing. (hell, I do this for a living and I HATE vet bills) How he behaved after being educated further supports my decision that he's ok. It's obvious that after he gave the aspirin that he felt his dog was more comfortable, and that in itself says that if something happens again, he's going to want to make sure his dog is comfortable. Your statement doesn't help him, doesn't help his dog, and doesn't help anybody on this board....and is nothing more than you puffing your chest out looking like an asshole.

Now...on to the aspirin. Aspirin has a lot of properties. Some are advantageous, some not so much. The ones that are the most advantageous are the anti inflammatory properties. The inflammation causes pain by stretching nerve fibers. By reducing that inflammation, you reduce the pain, at the source. Great property. Now for the bad, aspirin reduces platelet adhesion time. This is the reason they suggest you take it in case of a heart attack. It also increases the risk of developing a gastric ulcer. It can't be used with more effective NSAIDS, and it's use actually means that you can't use them at all for a period of time. Finally, it means that you really shouldn't use steroids, because again, it greatly increases the chance of developing a gastric ulcer. For the most part, I *HATE* aspirin.

I love tramadol. Tramadol does not act at the site of the pain, it is broken down by the body into morphine. This morphine acts in the brain. This may seem dumb, because you aren't treating the actual problem...but the big thing is that it doesn't create a situation where you can't treat the actual problem, because it has no effect on the source of the pain. I also love it because it's cheap. I believe it's a walmart $4 prescription for 30 days worth (they honor that list for pet medications as well). The best part about tramadol for me, is if you don't know what's causing the pain...you can still give it. That's the biggest reason I like it in situations like yours. If your dog had a foreign body in it's intestines, you wouldn't want to use aspirin because of it's properties in reducing platelet adhesion and gastric ulcers...but tramadol is still ok.

The one thing I really caution is giving human medications to dogs. A lot of them are extremely toxic just because they are broken down differently. On the nEVER list: Aleve & Advil, Ibuprofen & Tylenol

Black Forest
06-05-2011, 03:02 PM
AK you stated in your first post that you didn't want to spend money on a vet.

Nobody wants to spend money on a vet that is a given. But if your dog was in the pain you said the dog should have gone to the vet. If your vets try to diagnose over the phone they are not good vets. Sure they ask questions and might give some suggestions but in the end they should tell you to bring the dog in for an examination. All vets are not born equal.

As to giving any animal a pain killer without knowing what is wrong is not a good practice. The pain killer might mask the symtoms and make it harder to make an accurate diagnosis.

As to me sounding like an asshole so what. The truth hurts sometimes.

As to animals I have had many animals in my life. I have spent a small fortune on animals vet care. It is a responsibility that goes with animal ownership.

I don't know why AK didn't take the dog to the vet in the morning at least and get a exam. At that point he could make an informed decision as to what to do.

As to your statement about feeding pumkin and something else to bulk up the pumkin to help "push it through" that could backfire if there is a blockage creating more problems.

I am glad your dog is doing better. Next time take it to the vet!

A.K. Boomer
06-05-2011, 07:53 PM
I read that as meaning she recommended using enteric coated aspirin. From what I have been able to find about it, enteric coated aspirin is a no-no. From http://www.k911.biz/Petsafety/AspirinTylenolIbuprophenDangers.htm


You bring up a good point but it was one I pondered in the other direction - Im almost positive she stated a whole aspirin for the first dose and then half aspirin every 6 hours after which made me wonder - if enteric coated was so important then its going to be inop. after breaking an aspirin in half so I was concerned a little about that but sounds like that could actually be a good thing and the whole aspirin may not,

I did a kayak trip down the river today with an RN and she said that aspirin is still one of the best anti-inflammatory drugs out there - even today.
I will take what snowman said about tramadol seriously and try to remember for future reference - thank you, you guys are helpful, all is still good but if anything happens once it can happen again so I say that with both relief and concern.

Edit in retrospect;
Snowman, The potential trouble with just an outright pain killer to me is two very important things - first off no matter how you slice it the pain is there for a reason - if you simply mask it without trying to get to the problem (usually inflammation) you can create a much worse situation be it internal or external problems - say for example it was sharp bones pushing against her insides of her intestines - you really don't want to totally mask that or the results can be fatal if the dog "feels great" and then goes running and jumping around in a situation like that, just one example - hurt joints or tendons heed the same cautionary measures, I don't use this practice on myself and I have the ability to understand this effect - why would I do that with my little friends that cannot understand it.
Two; when trying to diagnose our furry little friends who cannot talk back and tell us whats wrong it can come in handy to give something to take the edge off but not completely off so probing and wiggling things around can aid in actually finding the problem and fixing it - problems that don't always show up on X-rays or cat scans, just some thoughts and one more thing to add as I think most of your post is right on esp. you putting BF in his rightful place, (its jackwagons like him that actually create more pain and suffering for everyone around them) - but my pets are not my property anymore than im theirs - neither of us all "own" each other - we simply choose to hang around each other cuz we like each others company... when we met they picked me to hang with as much as I picked them.
I may have some things to learn and will learn them but like I say this was new to me and I did the best I could without freaking out - my dog actually seems to have a new found appreciation for what we both went through and is giving me more out of control face slobbers almost as if to say thanks - after all its not every night ole pops pulls up a pillow and a blanket and camps out on the floor with her while she's recovering - lol

Wirecutter
06-06-2011, 02:16 PM
Well, AK, I hope your little buddy continues to be okay. Sounds to me like you care and really try to do the right thing by your pup, and vice versa.

-M

Black_Moons
06-06-2011, 02:57 PM
A.K. Boomer makes a great point. While its heartwrenching to see an animal in pain, the only thing worse is taking away all thier pain and having them run around just to injure themselfs worse. Animals understand pain = Stop doing things and rest untill it heals.

Humans understand painkillers = stop doing things and rest untill it heals, reguardless of no pain. At least, some humans do... Others still go bounding around and just injure themselfs worse. (Ever gotten mildly injured while drunk? (Like falling and screwing up your ankle?) Next morning its 10x worse because you did'nt notice and kept agravating it by walking on it normaly insted of limping around)

Some dog breeds even suffer from this because they have such a high tollerance from pain (rottweiler for example) , by time they behaviorly show any problems they are usally very severe, unless you perposfuly poke and prod at the dog and note the slightest reaction. (A vet would likey get false reactions just because the dog does not know them) A good test for joint problems for example is to try and pick up each of your dogs legs, one at a time, while hes standing and see if hes favoring any of them with more weight, Most dogs WILL try and hide joint problems the best they can. Pack animals do not like to show weakness, so they will try and walk as normal as they can, dispite not puting the same amount of weight on each leg.
(Had a few dogs with hip problems..)


I would recommend a tranquilizer over a strong painkiller if the dog was in serious pain, as it would prevent them from further injuring themselfs, while letting them rest in some comfert.
(Of course, im no vet.. so take the vets instructions, but consider talking to them with your own opinions and seeing what they say about it)

snowman
06-06-2011, 07:12 PM
(Of course, im no vet.. so take the vets instructions, but consider talking to them with your own opinions and seeing what they say about it)

Please do, because trust me...his advice and opinions are dead wrong.

A good vet can find a painful joint without looking for the dogs response, by feeling the joint and the movements of the bones. A good vet can see a lame dog (cat, horse, and the list goes on) from 100 yards away, and tell you what joint is bothering it by the way it moves.

You need to shut up while you are...well...behind, but mostly you just need to shut up about things you don't understand. I don't care how many dogs you have owned, it's obvious that your advice, and opinions are not in line with current veterinary care, so please quite sharing them.

You don't use pain as a method of restraint...that is cruelty. It is that simple. There are a multitude of drugs available that can be used alongside APPROPRIATE pain management if someone is not able to manage the behavior of their dog.

snowman
06-06-2011, 07:25 PM
=

Edit in retrospect;
Snowman, The potential trouble with just an outright pain killer to me is two very important things - first off no matter how you slice it the pain is there for a reason - if you simply mask it without trying to get to the problem (usually inflammation) you can create a much worse situation be it internal or external problems - say for example it was sharp bones pushing against her insides of her intestines - you really don't want to totally mask that or the results can be fatal if the dog "feels great" and then goes running and jumping around in a situation like that, just one example - hurt joints or tendons heed the same cautionary measures, I don't use this practice on myself and I have the ability to understand this effect - why would I do that with my little friends that cannot understand it.


You are right. You don't want to mask symptoms...which is why one takes their animal the the vet for appropriate pain management. Appropriate pain management is done at appropriate times. For example, if an animal is hit by a car and comes in walking, our doctor will do a quick neurological exam to look for any possible spinal cord injuries prior to giving pain medications. This is usually while I am getting around the appropriate injectable pain medication. If the animal is in too much pain, we forgo the neurological exam for the time being. In your example, a radiograph would see the bones, or an obstructive pattern.

To date, I have never seen an animal expected to suffer through pain to make their diagnosis or treatment easier.



Two; when trying to diagnose our furry little friends who cannot talk back and tell us whats wrong it can come in handy to give something to take the edge off but not completely off so probing and wiggling things around can aid in actually finding the problem and fixing it - problems that don't always show up on X-rays or cat scans, just some thoughts and one more thing to add as


Just because it doesn't show up on radiographs, cat scans, mri, or whatever imaging technique you want doesn't mean that it won't show up in bloodwork, the physical exam or other analysis...there's a lot available to diagnose problems. I am also yet to see a dog that the owners wanted and could afford diagnostics come out of the game with an "I don't know what is wrong" diagnosis. Not all of them recover, but you can make a diagnosis 99% of the time.



I think most of your post is right on esp. you putting BF in his rightful place, (its jackwagons like him that actually create more pain and suffering for everyone around them) - but my pets are not my property anymore than im theirs - neither of us all "own" each other - we simply choose to hang around each other cuz we like each others company... when we met they picked me to hang with as much as I picked them.
I may have some things to learn and will learn them but like I say this was new to me and I did the best I could without freaking out - my dog actually seems to have a new found appreciation for what we both went through and is giving me more out of control face slobbers almost as if to say thanks - after all its not every night ole pops pulls up a pillow and a blanket and camps out on the floor with her while she's recovering - lol

Your pets are your property. Plenty of laws recognize this, and the fact that you are responsible for their actions. You can believe that you hang around each other, but the reality that people need to face is that they are your property. I can't change how you treat your property, unless you do something to it that is illegal. It's this reality that burns a lot of people in the veterinary field out.

Evan
06-06-2011, 08:00 PM
British Columbia now has the toughest animal cruelty laws on the books. Maximum penalties are $75,000 fine and/or up to 2 years in prison. The statute of limitations on animal cruelty is now three years instead of six months.

Arcane
06-06-2011, 09:18 PM
There was a mention of how much physical pain an animal can stand and I think the little guy in this vid shows us just how amazing some of them are...(for those of you who haven't heard of Mason).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkqpG9V_3oE&NR=1

A.K. Boomer
06-06-2011, 09:26 PM
Actually I think B. moons knows allot about critters and he pegged the difference between my two dogs --- my older one is tough as nails and does not like to show pain at all even when she has an obvious problem.

Maggie on the other hand is a drama queen - she charges the back fence all the time and breaks a nail and if you forget about it and go to shake her paw you would think the world is coming to an end, still what happened the other night was even worse and her heart beat was so off the charts I believe she was experiencing a type of pain that she never had and that threw her into a partial panic attack.

Personally I don't think its right about taking all the pain away in every situation - that's just common sense esp. when dealing with critters who you can't talk too and tell them to take it easy for awhile, if its warranted then giving something to take the edge off makes much more sense esp. if the pet is expected to go right back home. that's just a protective safety measure and if you take it all away the dog most likely will end up back in with even more severe problems - hopefully something like that would be just an ignorant mistake by a rookie vet and not some money making tactic...


Last but not least TWO Vets told me what to do and they were right, I credit the aspirin because I could see it made a huge difference but not totally - perfect - just enough to get Maggies internal swelling down yet not enough to mask it all - she was cautious for awhile and gradually tested it - then it was go time - one cannot say this would have occurred with just pain meds and in fact the outcome could be anywhere from close to the same (if your lucky and best case ) to much worse if she did not "feel" what she was doing and trashed something even worse but it could never be better because it simply does not do anything to help in healing.
It can also be considered animal cruelty to over medicate and animal and have it trash itself - happens all the time.

snowman
06-06-2011, 10:18 PM
Actually I think B. moons knows allot about critters and he pegged the difference between my two dogs --- my older one is tough as nails and does not like to show pain at all even when she has an obvious problem.

And I'd be more than willing to bet everything that I have that I, as well as the doctors that I work with, would recognize pain in the one that is tough as nails.

IT'S WHAT WE DO FOR A PROFESSION!



Personally I don't think its right about taking all the pain away in every situation - that's just common sense esp. when dealing with critters who you can't talk too and tell them to take it easy for awhile, if its warranted then giving something to take the edge off makes much more sense esp. if the pet is expected to go right back home. that's just a protective safety measure and if you take it all away the dog most likely will end up back in with even more severe problems - hopefully something like that would be just an ignorant mistake by a rookie vet and not some money making tactic...

Lets see here...I work with multiple board certified surgeons, internal medicine specialists, cardiologists, ophthalmologists, neurologists and oncologists.....All told, well over a thousand years of professional experience in the doctors alone (50+ clinicians, at least half board certified). I can't think of a single one that has a pain management protocol that uses pain as restraint. Why would they, all of the related studies have found that animals heal faster when pain is appropriately managed.


Last but not least TWO Vets told me what to do and they were right, I credit the aspirin because I could see it made a huge difference but not totally -

Two vets that did not even examine your dog.


It can also be considered animal cruelty to over medicate and animal and have it trash itself - happens all the time.

Does it? Under what definition of "animal cruelty"?

What drug, and at what dose does this begin happening??

I've never seen it on any patient we've sent home. Generally the only time animals injur themselves during recovery, is because the owner does not follow discharge instructions to keep their animals activity restricted. Keep them in a small room. Leash walks only, and only to use the restroom.

In fact, it's impossible for the animal to injur themselves, at the fault of only the medication, if the owner follows the discharge instructions.

A.K. Boomer
06-07-2011, 12:29 AM
And I'd be more than willing to bet everything that I have that I, as well as the doctors that I work with, would recognize pain in the one that is tough as nails.

IT'S WHAT WE DO FOR A PROFESSION!

no sorry - no way, take it from me bro 15 years of hanging around with the stubborn old goat - you would lose everything you had:p






Lets see here...I work with multiple board certified surgeons, internal medicine specialists, cardiologists, ophthalmologists, neurologists and oncologists.....All told, well over a thousand years of professional experience in the doctors alone (50+ clinicians, at least half board certified).

wow - now your beginning to sound like the opening line of the doctors that misdiagnosed me and then took all my money :p


I can't think of a single one that has a pain management protocol that uses pain as restraint. Why would they, all of the related studies have found that animals heal faster when pain is appropriately managed.

Then they need to re-think their pain management protocol - pain as a restraint IS the norm - it's how were all functioning right now (well hopefully most of us) I just had to change position while typing this due to the computer table poking me in the ribs - had I kept the same position for a long time I might end up with a bruise tomorrow, were not talking about leaving an animal in traumatic agony - were talking about taking the edge off and letting the animal know it still has a problem -- unless you keep all the animals you work on in a little plastic bubble till they are 100% healed then you run the risk of injury if you remove all feeling - that's just common sense - that's working along with nature, without pain we'd all be dead in short order, animals heal faster when pain is appropriately managed and part of managing pain properly is to allow some feeling or the animal will inflict further injury to itself, remember the pain is there for a reason in the first place - unless the pet owners are going to hire a full time baby sitter so you can drug every last bit of feeling out of the critter so it does not have an inkling of "pain" --- some pain is not bad - some pain is actually mah natures baby sitter and guess what pilgrim - she never sleeps and works for free ------ stop looking at all pain as being something to totally avoid or you could end up like Rush Limphose



Two vets that did not even examine your dog.


No but they asked a hell of allot of questions - and intelligent sounding ones to boot;) they also had a failsafe that if the condition got worse to bring her in.








In fact, it's impossible for the animal to injur themselves, at the fault of only the medication, if the owner follows the discharge instructions.

Impossible - wow what a statement,
Sure - as long as the discharge instructions state to sedate and place in bubble wrap,

That's almost like saying its impossible to bite into your own inner cheeks after coming back from the dentist --- uhhh - yeah ok dude...

Pain sucks snowman but recognize it for what it is - without it we die - it keeps us safe and it keeps us from both hurting ourselves to begin with (memory) and further injuring ourselves once the initial trauma has occurred,
If your going to try and totally override this ingenious age old system you better hire the ultimate baby sitter for the full duration of healing because that's exactly the job that it does and it does it wonderfully and without a hitch or guess work - it's also ready and waiting for variables - something even the best vets cannot predict even if they live with you...

All that being said - if I had some of that tramadol (or whatever its called) from 1:30am till about 1:45am the only question I would ask is if I could crush it up and make it work faster - yes that type of pain is nasty even in my little drama queen, whatever it was it was for real and I would have used anything safe to stop it.

Black_Moons
06-07-2011, 12:31 AM
snowman: Ok, What do you do about a 10 year old rottweiler with bad back hips, Who injures himself and walks around limping for a week, every time he gets really excited and is feeling good enough to take a good run at something?... about once a month (Dog lived on a large fenced in yard, near much wildlife)

Do you provide pain management? And let him take yet another run untill hes too screwed up to walk even with pain killers? Or lock him inside to prevent him taking a run while on pain management and he has no idea why hes being punished by being locked inside constantly and unable to go out like he usally does?

Or do you do what you would usally do in your own case. Live with the pain, consider yourself a fool for doing something excessive AGAIN after you know your too old and have bad hips, And try and learn from it while you take it easy? Maybe, at best, you take a mild pain killer, but then you know even without the pain you should'nt be running again.

My highly intelligent otherwise but poor attention span dog.. Not so clear on that he should'nt be running, except when he realises walking hurts a little, and running hurts a lot.

Most old people are in pain. I often have pain myself and im young. Pain is a fact of life and it tells you important things. I never take pain meds myself unless its so bad the pain is all I can think about. Pain won't kill/harm you. Medications can. Once you get over pain, you are fine. Once you get over medications, You could have long term organ damage.

Yea, in LOTS of pain, its good to 'manage' it down to a reasonable amount. Such that its under the tollerance level of the animal, but never to remove it.

PS: Taken the dog to a few vets, and they consider the surgery to fix his hips to be too hard on the dog to be worth risking it due to his age.

'Sure - as long as the discharge instructions state to sedate and place in bubble wrap' <- Haha, Yep pertty much.

Black Forest
06-07-2011, 12:48 AM
Snowman, how many horses have you actually seen a vet diahnose from 100 yards away? Actually how many horses have you seen a vet diagnose from any distance?

As to me causing pain and suffering to you AK. Too bad. You should have taken your dog to the vet if it was in as much pain as you said it was. You are anthropomorphising with your dogs. Too bad for your pets.

If I am a jackwagon( I don't know what a jackwagon is!) because I took the dogs side instead of a persons side that chose to not do the right thing and get the dog help then so be it!

A.K. Boomer
06-07-2011, 09:49 AM
Snowman, how many horses have you actually seen a vet diahnose from 100 yards away? Actually how many horses have you seen a vet diagnose from any distance?

As to me causing pain and suffering to you AK. Too bad. You should have taken your dog to the vet if it was in as much pain as you said it was. You are anthropomorphising with your dogs. Too bad for your pets.

If I am a jackwagon( I don't know what a jackwagon is!) because I took the dogs side instead of a persons side that chose to not do the right thing and get the dog help then so be it!


I believe you do the wrong thing and its not in the best interest of the animal - If I gave pain killers everytime "the pig" hurt herself she would be an absolute mess and most likely be missing one or two of her front digits due to infection, Like I stated - she charges the back fence all the time and breaks a nail on occasion - this is actually very painful for her but she can deal with it - she also takes great care of it afterwords and does not make it worse by charging the fence anymore - she also keeps the area very clean by carefully licking it all the time...
These are all natural safety mechanisms and you have one thing to thank for it - pain.

People also don't think about the long term mental effects of trying to take care of every little whim that comes up - it creates a false environment for the both pets and people - it leads to further injury's down the road and perhaps fatal ones - again - that's just common sense, But some people think nothing of trying to take all pain away as if its enemy #1 - it's not - it's actually the motherboard of all diagnostic and repair systems, without it we die in short order even if we start out 100% healthy and have no injuries it's guaranteed we soon will, so don't shoot the messenger boy - yes by all means if he's frantic try to calm him down some, and don't pass judgment on things you know very little about - its obvious your thinking is way too shallow to do that,
I listened to the vets and did what they said - they did not say to take her in so your going to have to come to grips with that and deal with it, sorry - they trump both you and snowman because I know their for real and it's what they do for a living --------- yet when it comes to pain meds if either one of them made the statement of;
"We hand it out to our patients like it's candy at holloween."
then the phone would have been hung up and another call would have been made.
as far as what happened @ 1:30 am it was a totally freak incident and with the combined years of both my dogs being 26 years and the major pain about 15 minutes it would have been way more traumatic to try and get her in the car like that all for a trip that lasted as long as the major pain, although you might create enough extra trauma by trying to move her to then warrant mega doses for a long period.
And if you think im going to call a vet out @ 1:30 am for a house call within 15 minutes then your mistaken.
My dog cools it for quite sometime after breaking a nail while trying to push my fence down, even after the nail is long healed - at least it works for short term memory for her and that's due to one thing - her experiencing pain from it.

I live in the land of 6 or 7% of the worlds populous yet we consume 80% of all the worlds pain medications --- we consume 99% of the worlds vicodin and generic vicodin, we apply much of this same fuqed up logic to our pets,

It's not that just me and my vets think your incorrect - it's that most of the world thinks your incorrect -- if your trying to mask every little whim your simply doing the wrong thing --- if you think we all should carry a bag of morphine around with us everywhere we go just in case then may I suggest that if your that afraid of pain that you might consider just having one huge "getting out of life sale" and be over and done with it once and for all...

Keep in mind the OP was about what could be wrong - not about your flawed ideology's of pain management, i don't like the way you do things - and I think your dangerous and should be monitored.;)