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sasquatch
06-23-2011, 06:06 PM
Lady friend had to take her vacumn in to the repair shop,(they only do vacumns,) to have the on/off switch replaced.

When i went in there to pick it up,, sign on the wall stated Labour rate is $65.00 an hour.

Now,,,,, what amount of equipment would this shop have to have to repair vacumns?

In comparison to machinists, mechanics etc, or even my neighbours with a $125,000.00 tri-axel dump truck, $65.00 an hour seems pretty exorbitant to me, for ? a 10x12 shop, a set of hand tools, a couple of meters etc????:rolleyes:

CCWKen
06-23-2011, 06:18 PM
Been to a Cadillac or Porsche shop lately? $65/hr is for their car wash. :eek:

38_Cal
06-23-2011, 06:19 PM
"Don't rush me, I work cheaper!" One of my step-dad's favorite sayings.

David

Rosco-P
06-23-2011, 06:55 PM
Local transmission shop, not a chain, independant shop, one owner, get his hands dirty, etc., technician rate $100 per hour.

You allowed your "friend" to robbed. The question is?

Mcgyver
06-23-2011, 07:16 PM
Lady friend had to take her vacumn in to the repair shop,(they only do vacumns,) to have the on/off switch replaced.

When i went in there to pick it up,, sign on the wall stated Labour rate is $65.00 an hour.

Now,,,,, what amount of equipment would this shop have to have to repair vacumns?

In comparison to machinists, mechanics etc, or even my neighbours with a $125,000.00 tri-axel dump truck, $65.00 an hour seems pretty exorbitant to me, for ? a 10x12 shop, a set of hand tools, a couple of meters etc????:rolleyes:

Based on what vacuum cleaner repairmen and auto 'technicians' charge, a reasonable shop rate given the huge amount of equipment and intellectual horsepower required for quality shop, the rate should be 250+ per hour. Unfortunately its one of those industries that has ruined itself in the rush to be the low bidder. How many people get three quotes on their vacuums? I bet not enough for the repairman to even notice if he's the low bidder or not.

sasquatch
06-23-2011, 08:09 PM
Good point Mcgyver,, i was just astonished that for the tie up in equipment compared to other trades who have tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars invested and have to keep updating that equipment, the labour rate seemed quite high .

Ries
06-23-2011, 08:17 PM
I was in the chainsaw repair place today, they charge $80 an hour. They do have a tiny little harbor freight hydraulic press, but, aside from that, they do it all with a set of wrenches and a screwdriver.

There is not any real relationship between the amount of equipment you have and the amount you charge per hour.

Lots and lots of lawyers who have a cell phone and 1 computer, who charge $200 to $800 an hour.

Shrinks can charge a hundred bucks an hour of more with nothing but a chair for you to sit on.

It dont make sense.

Machine shops do tend to be the most crazy, though- there are people with $200,000 and up worth of machines who bill at fifty bucks.

danlb
06-23-2011, 08:18 PM
There are many things that go into rates. One of them is training costs. Another is specialized tools or manuals that have to be purchased in anticipation of the eventual need.

But for a small shop, you have to figure in the time he wastes sitting around waiting for business to walk in. If I figure that I need $2000 a week to pay the shop overhead (power, rent, insurance...) , buy groceries and pay the house mortgage, then I have to charge enough to make $2000 at the end of the week. At $65 an hour that is only 30 billable hours per week.

Dan

jep24601
06-23-2011, 09:41 PM
There are many things that go into rates. One of them is training costs. Another is specialized tools or manuals that have to be purchased in anticipation of the eventual need.

But for a small shop, you have to figure in the time he wastes sitting around waiting for business to walk in. If I figure that I need $2000 a week to pay the shop overhead (power, rent, insurance...) , buy groceries and pay the house mortgage, then I have to charge enough to make $2000 at the end of the week. At $65 an hour that is only 30 billable hours per week.

Dan

Exactly. I'm not sure why the OP thought $65 per hour was high in this day and age.

Alistair Hosie
06-24-2011, 07:44 AM
One word GREED thats all it is.I hope they get it because times are very hard.It's easy to charge that kind of money when people have no choice but otherwise forget it. Alistair

hitnmiss
06-24-2011, 08:21 AM
I bought a vacuum for about $65 new 15 years ago. Still works fine...

.RC.
06-24-2011, 08:27 AM
it is all supply and demand...

Ed P
06-24-2011, 08:29 AM
It dont make sense.


It makes perfect sense. Perhaps you do not understand it completely. Price is based solely on what the market will bear. If anyone thinks otherwise they are being foolish.

Ed P

Ed P
06-24-2011, 08:34 AM
One word GREED thats all it is...It's easy to charge that kind of money when people have no choice .... Alistair

Nonsense, they have plenty of choices, because there are plenty of people that will repair a switch on a vacuum cleaner. And be careful calling it "greed", when you go to your boss and ask for a raise or your union demands higher wages for you it's really the same thing. Really. Yup, really.

Ed P

J Tiers
06-24-2011, 08:38 AM
price is NOT necessarily based only on what the market will bear...... NOR is it greed.

the STARTING point is what was mentioned above, the amount required to bring in just to pay the rent, heat, business license, and stay current on service info etc.

AFTER that we start to talk about whether the owner is satisfied with minimum wage or below, vs a decent living.

Yah... it's an ironic joke with some of the folks howling "unreasonable", "it's GREED", and so forth...... As they march on the picket line about "unfair" wages of "only" $25 per hour..........

The business owner for a vacuum repair joint is likely getting half that after all expenses. That's if he isn't slowly losing money because most people don't GET them repaired*, and manufacturers don't make them to BE repaired anymore.

Who gets it repaired when it almost costs less to buy a new one?

* A very substantial number of people only know "it's broken", and have no CLUE that people actually can repair things.

Carld
06-24-2011, 08:44 AM
Yes, he has to charge enough to stay in business. Another point is, how many just go and buy a new appliance when one fails rather than have it fixed. There used to be appliance repair shops around but now they are few and far between.

We are a throw away society.

Mcgyver
06-24-2011, 08:45 AM
One word GREED thats all it is.I hope they get it because times are very hard.It's easy to charge that kind of money when people have no choice but otherwise forget it. Alistair

Define greed. Other than an opinionated judgement, one person casting stones at another, the only way i can define it is as someone acting in their own economic self interest, which everyone seems to do

are you still practicing Dentistry? bet it isn't at $65/hour not was it? :D :D

Mcgyver
06-24-2011, 08:51 AM
It makes perfect sense. Perhaps you do not understand it completely. Price is based solely on what the market will bear. If anyone thinks otherwise they are being foolish.

Ed P

hmmmm, maybe, there's often a lot of elasticity in what the market will bear and where prices end up with that range is often a function of competitive pressures. there are industries that get ruined by competitors with bad pricing policies - the rush to the bottom scenario on job shop/subcontractor type businesses...or there oligopolies like Canada's banks and telecoms that keep prices very high due to a lack of competition.

airsmith282
06-24-2011, 08:53 AM
it takes all kinds in this world thats for sure

if you pay under 200.00 for a vacume then pitch it out when it brakes and go buy a new one

if you pay under 200.00 for anything for that matter them when it brakes if you cant fix it your self then go buy a new one of what ever it is..

madwilliamflint
07-06-2011, 02:31 PM
to wit: A bit of genius (http://mpwilson.com/2009/02/11/genius/)

photomankc
07-06-2011, 02:37 PM
One word GREED thats all it is.I hope they get it because times are very hard.It's easy to charge that kind of money when people have no choice but otherwise forget it. Alistair



What? How does she have no choices again? Does anyone know his customer base or how much it takes to keep the lights on? Was she abducted and forced to pay $65/hr for a switch?

RussZHC
07-06-2011, 06:50 PM
To me, this


there are industries that get ruined by competitors with bad pricing policies - the rush to the bottom scenario on job shop/subcontractor type businesses

is very troublesome, not personally, yet, but on principle.

Taking the OP as example and coupling it with others posting about how such repair places are fewer and farther between, am I the one that should start up and "only" change say $ 60 per hour?
If somehow that gets the the "same" standard of living (not knowing what that was, relatively) do I ? Knowing it is also possible someone else will come along and open shop for $ 50 per hour.
IF it means having work or not, do I?

A bit "PMish" but brings up minimum wage, a "working" wage, a decent standard of living, a good standard of living. Of course those descriptions vary...I DO KNOW you can only be in the first couple for a short while before you begin doing questionable things.

wierdscience
07-06-2011, 07:53 PM
We charge $60/hr at work for walk in and wait your turn machine work and welding.Some people are pissed by that and swear we are gouging,gouging I tell ya:mad:
Well what they don't know is bare minimum operating costs on the business adds up to $45,000/year before we make the first swarf.
In a small shop,in a small town that's a big hurdle to jump and it doesn't even begin the expense of maintaing tooling and inventory.

Many customers are just like many employees,they have no idea what it costs the employer to keep them in a job.All they see is their paycheck and that's it.

Pete F
07-06-2011, 10:25 PM
Yes, he has to charge enough to stay in business. Another point is, how many just go and buy a new appliance when one fails rather than have it fixed. There used to be appliance repair shops around but now they are few and far between.

We are a throw away society.

I took a TV into a repair shop about 12 years ago - the screen would go out after it had been on for a while. They knew immediately what was wrong (loose components that would lose connection after they heated up), and said they could fix it. I was foolish enough to not ask for a quote, and the bill came to about $160 IIRC, very little below if not the same as what a new one of the same size would have cost at the time. I guess it is good it didn't get thrown away, but at the time I just thought, "wow, I could have just paid a little bit more and gotten a bigger TV."

There is not much incentive to repair when a repair is the same cost as a replacement. And, of course, once repairs get rarer, so do repairers.

On the flip side, my brother in law had a large plasma flat-screen that went out. He replaced it for about $3000, and gave the old one to a friend who liked to tinker with electronics. Said friend figured out what the bad part was, and had it up and running for under $200. What's the moral? Learn to fix your own stuff. Which is what I would have done 12 years ago, but I have no experience with CRTs, and frankly, those caps scare me.

-Pete

x39
07-06-2011, 11:42 PM
I think $65.00 /hr. is quite reasonable for a one person service/repair operation. Considering the number of billable hours in a day that have to: pay the owner's wage, cover business expenses, and make a profit for the business, I'm sure the guy isn't exactly hauling truck loads of cash to the bank.

DATo
07-07-2011, 06:22 AM
"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings." - Shakespeare (Cassius)

When we learn to just say NO to exorbitant prices the prices will come down. Those who charge unrealistically high prices will either go out of business or demand the same from those who overcharge them to BE in business. Those who charge less will flourish. But all consumers must be on the proverbial "same page" for this to work and there are a significant number of consumers who will pay any price asked for CONVENIENCE.

We have become a lazy society that accepts disposability over maintenance on one hand and the high costs of that which we do maintain. Our parents and grandparents would NEVER have put up with this crap. They demanded quality in products and services because they didn't have the disposable cash we have today. Maybe we really need a good, healthy depression to sort things out. I doubt someone is going to pay $65 to have a vacuum fixed when that money is needed for food for their kids. That's when we'll all learn to start using a broom again, the way our forebears did.

Black Forest
07-07-2011, 07:52 AM
A woman calls a hardwood floor specialist because she has a loud squeak in the floor in her living room.

Man shows up walks around on the troublesome floor for one minute and then drives three nails. Squeak gone.

Hands her a bill for 45 dollars. The woman questions the bill and wants a breakdown.

Floor specialist says, 3 dollars for the nails and 42 dollars for knowing where to drive them!

Toolguy
07-07-2011, 07:54 AM
She could have just worked some talcum powder into the cracks for free.

Rosco-P
07-07-2011, 10:16 AM
We have become a lazy society that accepts disposability over maintenance on one hand and the high costs of that which we do maintain. Our parents and grandparents would NEVER have put up with this crap. They demanded quality in products and services because they didn't have the disposable cash we have today. Maybe we really need a good, healthy depression to sort things out. I doubt someone is going to pay $65 to have a vacuum fixed when that money is needed for food for their kids. That's when we'll all learn to start using a broom again, the way our forebears did.

If you have a $400 Dyson (I know, a bunch of plastic junk), a $1000 Kirby, Miele, Electrolux or Rainbow Vac, than $65 per hour to keep a quality vacuum running for another five or ten years is a bargain.

flylo
07-07-2011, 11:17 AM
Ask what it will cost before hand & if you choose to leave it don't complain. I needed a fuel filter replaced on my Cummins/Dodge pickup. Easy to do spin on just kills my back to reach it. I called 4 places,$45,$40,$35,$10. It's a 10 min job. Took it in to the $10 place this morning. the mechanic never worked on a diesel, I told him how he also changed a valve core in a tire,$10 bill I'm gone. Their happy, I'm happy.Stopped at an estate sale bought a DuMore grinder, a torch set complete with 2 full aceteline tanks all for $10. Now I'm really happy. Point being find out first what it cost.:D

sansbury
07-07-2011, 02:13 PM
Pricing is determined by the value provided to the customer, not the cost required by the supplier.

If the cost of cheese, flour, and tomatoes suddenly shot up, so that a pizzeria had to charge $100 for a pie, then we would have no pizzerias left within a few months. No one would care that the owner's profit was still only a few dollars per pie, they would buy hamburgers or buffalo wings instead.

OTOH, if I showed you a revolutionary new type of drill bit that stayed sharp for 10 years and could drill a hole twice as fast as the best carbide, you might be happy to pay double the price versus a regular bit. The fact that it cost me no more to make would not matter.

If the customer is not willing to pay what you consider a fair price, then there are one of two possible problems:

1. Your product really isn't worth the price
2. It really is worth the price, but you failed to convince the customer of that

In either case, the problem is staring back at you in the mirror. Everyone wants to believe it is (2), but often it's (1). If it is (2), then either learn to sell better, or look for better customers.

goose
07-07-2011, 02:30 PM
$65 an hour is nothing. Go to the local auto repair shop, $100 an hour, maybe $125 an hour shop rate posted on the wall. Greed, as if......you think the mechanic is handed a "C" note every hour on the hour?

If it's too much for you, go elsewhere. It's more than just parts. And it's more than just labor. Value is added. You can replace a switch on a vacuum by yourself (maybe), but ordering parts, an hour of taking a nasty old vacuum apart, frustration and assuming the risk that it's the only thing wrong, versus dropping the appliance off in the morning and picking it up in the afternoon.

How many times have you made a part on the lathe and screwed it up, if you're a business, you absorb that cost, and if you're a client you never even know about it.

Our grandparents days are gone, and so are vacuum tubes and transistors the size of of you finger nail. You can't even repair the electronics manufactured today, they're so small. That's a trade-off, cool electronics that you can fit in your pocket but are impossible to repair.

Rex
07-07-2011, 11:01 PM
Well, the problem with the auto repair shop is that most of them don't know what they are doing, but they all think it's worth the same money as the Porsche specialist two shops down the street.

Had a click in the front wheel of my wife's SUV. She took it to the Lincoln specialty shop, all former Lincoln techs. They replaced a tie rod end for $430. Click was still there.

I don't mind paying the going rate if the tech knows what he's doing, and performs the repair correctly and efficiently.

But no way a vacuum cleaner repair guy can be worth what decent car repair tech or machinist makes. It's about what the downtime costs you. If my vacuum cleaner is broke, it's not a crisis, and it's not going to cost me money while it sits broken in the closet.

flutedchamber
07-08-2011, 08:32 AM
I worked for years at an automatic transmission repair shop, and opened a side business of my own.

One day a customer came in with a shifting problem in his trans. After I dropped the pan I discovered a torn screen on the transmission filter. There was one batch of filters by a major manufacturer about 30 years ago that had a tearing problem. The manufacturer would replace the filter for free, but that was all.

Anyway...I tell the guy the problem and what it would cost to fix the transmission. The bill came to about $300 to R&R the transmission (Oldsmobile Toranado) and clean the internal passages. I told him for $100 more I could put new clutches, steel plates and bands in it, which would be a good idea considering the amount of muck in the bottom of the pan and the mileage on the unit (150K+).

He got upset that the parts would only cost $100, but the "easy" cleaning would cost three times that much.

I told him getting the dirt out wasn't hard to do, but knowing WHERE the dirt was and HOW to get to it cost the money.

I got the job, along with the clutches, steels and bands.

It's not the tools involved, it's the knowledge that costs.

loose nut
07-08-2011, 09:36 AM
$65 an hour is nothing. Go to the local auto repair shop, $100 an hour, maybe $125 an hour shop rate posted on the wall. Greed, as if......you think the mechanic is handed a "C" note every hour on the hour?
.

The mechanic would be lucky to get $25.00 of that.

Mcgyver
07-08-2011, 09:44 AM
Pricing is determined by the value provided to the customer, not the cost required by the supplier.


That only true with certain new and/or unique products. A market is a balance of supply and demand; that comment ignores competitive pressures and productivity gains. It doesn't even have to be direct competition, but usually there are at least alternative products/services if not direct competition. The value of a burger to a starving man is huge, but the McDonalds across the street keeps the price down around a couple of bucks

Suppose in a widget market they sell for $100 - the customer sees $100 in value. One maker as an idea for more efficient production and lowers costs significantly. The competition has to sell for at least $75 to break even, the innovator can sell for $70 and be highly profitable. This by the way is why fee enterprise/capitalism works better than any system, its based on competition which is the driver of innovation and productivity gain, the ultimate beneficiary being the consumer/population at large.

So they sell for $70 and get a huge share of the market....did the price go down because the value to the customer dropped? No, it went down because one supplier gained a cost advantage and used it to lower prices and gain share.

justanengineer
07-08-2011, 09:52 AM
I dont mind paying the price to have something serviced in a professional shop that has multiple workers, tens of thousands in tools and equipment, and a large supply of parts on hand, but honestly do get rather miffed by small shops getting big shop rates. The interesting thing to me about shop rates I have found, is that the best ones dont charge much, just enough to cover overhead and make a modest amount. The thing that sets these shops apart IMHO isnt the price, its your ability to get into them (they need to know you).

My personal favorite rant about "professional prices" with few tools are contractors. Im sorry, but if your total business investment is a pickup half full of tools and a home depot credit card, youre not worth $50/hr. Every time I point that out to a neighbor of mine he points out that he only makes $35/hr after expenses and has almost $10k in tools. I then point to my garage where Ive got more in tools for a hobby and we both have a good laugh for various reasons. If a contractor has a small warehouse of material or a regular crew to feed, thats one thing, but Bubba working by himself out of his single car garage is quite another.

One interesting thing I have also noted is the difference in how small businesses pass their expenses to the customer vs big business. Small business factors in the cost of property, and buildings with little or no consideration for the residual value of them when charging a customer. Basically, the customer pays for the business owner's investment, rather than a portion of it coming out of the business owner's salary. Big business OTOH realizes that property and buildings especially is still an investment and that odds are they will make money on them over a period of time, and doesnt pass this cost on to the customer.

Mcgyver
07-08-2011, 10:18 AM
One interesting thing I have also noted is the difference in how small businesses pass their expenses to the customer vs big business. Small business factors in the cost of property, and buildings with little or no consideration for the residual value of them when charging a customer. Basically, the customer pays for the business owner's investment, rather than a portion of it coming out of the business owner's salary. Big business OTOH realizes that property and buildings especially is still an investment and that odds are they will make money on them over a period of time, and doesnt pass this cost on to the customer.

How did you determine this?

x39
07-08-2011, 10:49 AM
Basically, the customer pays for the business owner's investment, rather than a portion of it coming out of the business owner's salary.
In no properly run business of any size should expenses be coming out of the owner's salary. The business is an entity to itself, if it does not generate sufficient income to pay both its expenses and the owners salary while making a profit, it will not last.

sansbury
07-08-2011, 02:32 PM
The value of a burger to a starving man is huge, but the McDonalds across the street keeps the price down around a couple of bucks

Yes, my statement is simplistic, but the core of it is there. It depends a lot on the product and market. If you want to buy a Budweiser inside Fenway Park, it's $7, if you want to buy the same glass of Bud at the local sports bar, it's half or less. Airline tickets bought right before the plane leaves often cost a lot more than ones bought a month or more beforehand.


Suppose in a widget market they sell for $100 - the customer sees $100 in value. One maker as an idea for more efficient production and lowers costs significantly. <SNIP>
So they sell for $70 and get a huge share of the market....did the price go down because the value to the customer dropped? No, it went down because one supplier gained a cost advantage and used it to lower prices and gain share.

The technical term for this is "consumer surplus." In my business, I have 4-5 main competitors, and for the past 5 years, I've kept adding features to my product in order to beat them in sales, but my price hasn't gone up, because if it did, I'd lose sales to them. So all our customers keep getting more for the same price.