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vpt
06-29-2011, 09:08 AM
So last night I was out chasing a lightning bug for my kids around 10pm. I noticed a plane flying over and because I am completely fascinated with planes and flying I watched it for awhile until it disappeared over the trees to the west. So I continued on following and watching the one lightning bug I've seen about 20 feet off the ground waiting for it to descend. Then over the same trees the plane disappeared I saw what looked like landing lights on a plane. I didn't think much of it because there is a small airport in town and I see planes come from this direction with landing lights on all the time. After a minute or so I was watching it again waiting to see a flash or blink of some kind of other (marker?) lights on the plane but didn't see any. Watched a little longer till it got strait over head which by that time you pretty much always see some sort of other flashing light if its a plane but still nothing. The light was as white as a bright star and lit up like landing lights (bright). It was moving slow, slower then the planes I normally see coming in, defiantly slower then a satellite. Slow enough that even with the trees all over in the back yard I was able to watch it for a good 5 minutes or more. Hard to tell how far up it was but when I moved back and forth I could see the stars in the background move back and forth behind the light and it seemed to me to be about the same distance up as a small single engine plane would be. Dead silent the whole time as well.

Swamp gas and weather balloon and stuff?

Back 15 years ago or so I saw three red lights in the sky east of us moving about like nothing I have ever seen before as well. left, right, up, down, sideways like nothing. As if a LED was on the end of a stick that you could wave around.


Just felt like I had to share. Like I said it has been quite some time since I saw something in the sky I couldn't explain.

justanengineer
06-29-2011, 09:46 AM
Sounds like you should stay in the comfort and safety of the shop! ;)

Seriously though, when I was in the military I saw quite a few aircraft do things I never thought possible prior. Im sure there is an explanation, but good luck being an average schmo and finding it now thanks to terrorism and "security" precautions on everything. Its a strange and wonderful age we live in my friend, but Im not too worried about lil gray men yet.

Abner
06-29-2011, 09:47 AM
I was headed home one night stone sober. From a hill to my right a large ball shaped object brightly lit, with a (flaming?) tail like a comet, moved very slowly(jogging speed) across the road about 300 feet up. I stopped the car and rolled down my window and stuck my head out. Slight ffffffffffff noise. Did not drop altitude!! Went 100% dark then back on tail and all then off again and that was it. Maybe watched it 45 seconds to 1 1/2 min.

Never seen anything like it before or since. Can't explain it. Could not understand why it didn't loose altitude.

I actually wish I had never seen it. Knowing I was not drunk, on drugs, or an UFO freak makes it worse. Having something that completely defies all my understanding of how things are is not welcome. It leaves me with questions that no one can answer. FWIW Abner.

Rustybolt
06-29-2011, 10:10 AM
Abner. It was most likely an natural phenomenon or someone having a giggle.
When my brother and I went fishing up in the UP we sometimes stayed up late to mess with the people waiting to catch the ,"Paulding Lights"

Dawai
06-29-2011, 10:16 AM
Some small planes can find a 40mph headwind, go to the 42 mph stall speed and hover in relation to the ground.. the wind across the wings continues at stall speed or greater.

I have been trying to remember what "spotter plane" would stall at 42mph...??? Used in the vietnam conflict?? or?? It was a common low cost trainer for US students.. Cessena 40 comes to mind, but I am not sure..

Remember the triangle UFO's on television?? they still show them shows even thou the stealth fighter and bomber has been revealed..

vpt
06-29-2011, 10:38 AM
Abner. It was most likely an natural phenomenon or someone having a giggle.
When my brother and I went fishing up in the UP we sometimes stayed up late to mess with the people waiting to catch the ,"Paulding Lights"



The Paulding light! I was there with a group of friends. We followed the highlines for miles flashing a light back to the "spot" where we had a spotter letting us know if he could see our light yet or not. People at the spot were complaining I guess. LOL Interesting enough the lights were red or yellowish white forever until HID's came out, now all of a sudden there is a blue light too!

bborr01
06-29-2011, 10:56 AM
Back in July of 1988 my wife and I were at our cottage enjoying a week of vacation. My wife went down by the lake to prepare for a campfire and I was a few minutes behind her.

When I got there she pointed to the south and asked me what I thought that light in the sky was. I looked and saw that it was moving around slightly but not coming any closer. It looked to be maybe 20 miles away.

I told her it was probably a chopper hovering or a jet heading to the airport in Grand Rapids.

But it didn't come closer even after we watched it for 10 or 15 minutes.

Finally it started to come closer. As it got close enough to get a better look, it looked like a 747 or larger but with no fuselage. Just a flying wedge.

It had 4 white lights on front and 4 red lights in the rear and the whole outline was was quite visible against the night sky.

The most eerie thing about it was that we could also hear it. IT SOUNDED LIKE A TOP LIKE I HAD AS A CHILD BUT WITH A VERY LOW PITCH WHIRR.

It moved slowly over our heads and started to go behind the trees so I started toward our dock so I could continue to watch it.

My wife yelled at me to get back here. I told her if they wanted to pick me up I was game. What better way to leave this planet than on a ride like that.:eek:

I went to the end of the dock and saw it go from looking like it was a half a mile away to looking like it was hundreds of miles away in just a few seconds. The other odd thing is that the whirring sound didn't increase in frequency like you would expect but just got quieter until I couldn't hear it any more.

We went up to the cottage and called the state police post and I asked them if they had any reports of strange sightings in the southern sky. As I explained what my wife and I had just witnessed, I could hear them snickering in the background. They told me to call the sheriffs office as they were south and the state police post was north of us.

I got the same snickering from them. They suggested I call the airport in GR and see if anyone in the control tower had seen anything similar. I had been laughed at enough for one night so I declined that call.

Over the next week or so I related this story to a few co-workers and family members and got a lot of comments about doing good drugs or how much we were drinking. There was no drugs or alcohol involved.

Over the last 20 years or so I have spent considerable time thinking about this and trying to explain in my mind what we had seen but I still have no idea. I rarely tell the story because it seems to bring about ridicule.

I had even thought about starting a thread here about it but decided otherwise. Now our story is out. Believe what you want. I still don't know what to believe except what my own eyes saw and my own ears heard.

Brian

A.K. Boomer
06-29-2011, 11:22 AM
Knowing I was not drunk, on drugs, or an UFO freak makes it worse.


Geeze I don't know - I seen one many years ago while high as a kite and it really didn't make it any better, even rented an airplane the next week to go look for it with one of my pilot friends, I seen huge pieces of stuff on fire and falling to the ground - they were NOT flares - they were random HUGE chunks of stuff and I had hills in the background to gauge distance and I marked the area and direction on the side of the road, I hiked for many days in the area where I should have found something charred - I risked hiking on private land, then in the plane seen nothing unusual, it was very strange and about drove me nuts...
This stuff acted like it was like the skin of a craft or something and the way it fell was like it was at the mercy of air currents that was helping to rock it side to side and pick up random speed and stall some all while it was on fire - total gravity and air resistance at work all the way down...

wasn't really a UFO - unless the abbreviation includes unidentified falling/flaming object...

lazlo
06-29-2011, 11:30 AM
Now you're in for it Andy -- the men in suits are on their way to your house in black SUV's and silent helicopters.

Tomorrow you'll be walking funny, and telling everyone it was swamp gas and weather balloons. :D

Evan
06-29-2011, 11:36 AM
Andy,

I have seen the exact same thing. One night I was driving back to town from the town 75 miles north of us. It's a road with some very long straight stretches. I saw a very bright light that appeared directly ahead of me just over the trees. I was just hanging there with no apparent motion. I stopped to have a better look and it wasn't moving at all and it made no sound. I stood and watched it for around 5 minutes and it still didn't change that I could see.

I got back in and resumed driving toward it and it still hung over the trees. I couldn't determine how far away it was because there was nothing to use as a reference. After driving for another ten minutes it finally started to move higher in the sky, slowly. Then in just another couple of minutes it passed over head quickly.

It was the Dash-7 Dehavilland commuter plane that flies between the towns in a straight line at an altitude of about 5000 feet. It keeps its landing lights on the entire time because neither of the airports are controlled. It was flying directly toward me the entire time and when I first spotted it it must have been only a few minutes after it had taken off. It's about a 20 minute flight and during that entire time it didn't seem to change position because it was coming toward me on what amounts to a collision course until it was very close.

When you are flying in an aircraft and you are on a collision course with another aircraft that isn't maneuvering it will have no apparent motion relative to yourself. It will be fixed in the sky as if it were a spot on your canopy or windshield right up to the time just before you collide.

Brian,

Sounds to me like a blimp. There are quite a few people experimenting with different designs for blimps to carry cargo and to use in heavy lift jobs.

As for other unexplained lights in the sky, one day for fun I went to the airport here and asked the flight services manager ( a good friend of mine) for a standard weather balloon. These are used to determine the ceiling since they are filled to a standard lift capacity of 4 ounces. By doing that they always rise at a given rate and the ceiling is measured by how long it takes for it to disappear in the clouds. They are about 3 feet in diameter.

That evening I attached a bright flashing lightbulb to it powered by the foil battery from a Polapack film cartridge. The lamp was a couple of watts so it could be seen for miles. I let it go and the last I saw of it was at maybe 10,000 feet and ten miles to the west. Those balloons burst at about 15000 feet so it would have come down shortly afterward.

Jaakko Fagerlund
06-29-2011, 11:59 AM
One night I was driving back to town from the town 75 miles north of us. It's a road with some very long straight stretches. I saw a very bright light that appeared directly ahead of me just over the trees. I was just hanging there with no apparent motion. I stopped to have a better look and it wasn't moving at all and it made no sound. I stood and watched it for around 5 minutes and it still didn't change that I could see.

I got back in and resumed driving toward it and it still hung over the trees. I couldn't determine how far away it was because there was nothing to use as a reference. After driving for another ten minutes it finally started to move higher in the sky, slowly. Then in just another couple of minutes it passed over head quickly.
Street light pole? :D

Evan
06-29-2011, 12:04 PM
What's that?

winchman
06-29-2011, 12:14 PM
When I was a teenager, there was a long dirt road where an old railroad track through a swamp had been. It was a popular spot for us to go to see the "Summerville lights". The phenomen is documented here:
http://southcarolinaghost.tripod.com/GhostStories/id14.html

I saw the lights (actually swamp gas from decomposing vegetation burning) several times. I'm sure lots of odd stories (and a fair number of people) were conceived there.

Boucher
06-29-2011, 12:28 PM
The first secret product of Lockheeds’ Skunk Works was the VTOL aircraft. The pilots for these underwent isolated and very stressful training. One night they were hovering in formation at 20,000 ft. and turned on their landing lights. Scared the *hit out of Lubbock, TX and much of the surrounding area. It was years before declassification and the story could be told.

Abner
06-29-2011, 03:02 PM
"Abner. It was most likely an natural phenomenon or someone having a giggle.
When my brother and I went fishing up in the UP we sometimes stayed up late to mess with the people waiting to catch the ,"Paulding Lights">.."

I highly doubt it. I was bright enough to light the field below it substantially, not like daylight but very well lit. It would have taken a minimum of a 3/4 mile long cable to suspend this thing at the height it was. Given that it flew over a powerline I doubt even the best prankster would attempt to string a metal cable over that and live to talk about it. I estimate it to have been 3-4' in diameter. At first I suspected a large meteor but it held altitude and moved slow, no arc and no drop.

I was only about 400' feet away.

Every time I think about it I come back to the same set of problems; WTF was that thing? I simply don't know. I do know I cannot understand or explain it with my most extreme mechanical solution or wildest guess. I can be logical. I can be rational, and I really wish there was some reasonable explanation, any reasonable explanation. It did not and does not make sense with any physics I'm aware of. I personally enjoy the "you are insignificant and small" feeling I get when I witness some major storm or disaster. This was not that way, it was not a "cool" thing at all. I really wish I had never seen the damn thing.

boslab
06-29-2011, 03:23 PM
we had a guy in work who swore that somthing followed him along a country road, after a nightshift, we all laughed till we wet ourselves till someone gave him a lift home as his car was broke after a nightshift, hes 6'6" and build like a truck, apparently he started crying when the guy taking him home went down the same road, he was petrified.
i dont understand it but the guy in question was as hard as nails, he lost his index finger hooking up a 30ton slab to a 500t crane as the crane lifted, slowly, it got pulled off, he came into the control room and threw it on the desk an said, i think i need a plaster!, yet he broke down when inadvertantly taken back to this quiet road
makes me wonder?
mark

Alistair Hosie
06-29-2011, 03:46 PM
Don't worry it's called the delerium tremours :D Alistair

Evan
06-29-2011, 04:45 PM
The people that spend the most time of anybody looking at the sky also report the fewest UFOs. It's Astronomers, both amateur and professional. Don't forget that a UFO is merely unidentified. Once it is identified it is no longer a UFO. I have been studying the sky, both day and night all my life. I have seen a very few things that puzzled me at first but I always found a good explanation.

Anything that appears to be a mechanical device that is near enough to the surface to clearly see details is without question of human origin. If it weren't then based on the number of reported UFOs we should be knee deep in aliens even more so than the movie "Men in Black". The problem then is to figure out what it is. Not everything that flies is public knowledge. Also, especially at night, it can be impossible to estimate scale and distance. Without a very clear and reliable reference from more than one point of observation all estimates are subject to observer misinterpretation. There is an old saying: "The worst witness in court is an eye witness."

Not only that, but it is frequently the case that many people will make the same mistake when observing the same thing. When faced with something unknown we tend to try and slot it into the same box as others based on our general educational and cultural biases.

Arcane
06-29-2011, 05:04 PM
I was headed home one night stone sober. From a hill to my right a large ball shaped object brightly lit, with a (flaming?) tail like a comet, moved very slowly(jogging speed) across the road about 300 feet up. I stopped the car and rolled down my window and stuck my head out. Slight ffffffffffff noise. Did not drop altitude!! Went 100% dark then back on tail and all then off again and that was it. Maybe watched it 45 seconds to 1 1/2 min.

Never seen anything like it before or since. Can't explain it. Could not understand why it didn't loose altitude.

I actually wish I had never seen it. Knowing I was not drunk, on drugs, or an UFO freak makes it worse. Having something that completely defies all my understanding of how things are is not welcome. It leaves me with questions that no one can answer. FWIW Abner.
I think that could have been "ball lightning"...certainly fits the description of it.

I've had one UFO experience and it happened just before midnite Christmas Eve, 1974. I was driving home late one night and this occurred at Odessa, a small town about 35 miles east of Regina. The highway runs through a few very small hills/rolling land to the west of the town and I thought I was meeting another vehicle with bright headlights as I approached Odessa. From the brightness of them, I figured we had to be about a mile apart when I first saw them so I was expecting to meet this car in about half a minute or so. Imagine my surprise when I drove for 10 minutes without meeting anyone and this bright light shining at me whenever I went over a rise in the road! It turned out they were stationary lights, about 100 to 150 feet in the air and about 100 yards off the highway over a farmers farmyard and almost directly over the farmhouse. The lights were two very bright lights, like airplane landing lights and spaced at least 25 feet apart, maybe a bit more. As I drove by, I could see a small red flashing light halfway between the two and about 5 feet lower. When I went back a couple of days later, I made it a point to look to see what the heck he had rigged up, but there was nothing to see. It definitely was too high to have been anything on a windmill and there were no towers of any sort around either. The strange thing was, these lights never wavered one iota, they were rock solid all the time I saw them. I cannot emphasize just how steady these lights were! At 10 miles away, just the smallest bit of movement on their part would have been easily seen by me and there wasn't any movement/wavering. I don't know what it was for sure, but it definitely was not an airplane and I don't know of any helicopter that can hover motionless for 10 minutes to the point that their landing lights wouldn't waver and also not make any noise. Do helicopters have landing lights that point forwards like an airplanes and are they that bright and that far apart too? The other thing is, if it was a helicopter, why would they be flying around just before midnite Christmas eve and hovering above a farmers yard? I have no idea what it was so as far as I am concerned, it was truly an Unidentified Flying Object!

Evan
06-29-2011, 05:13 PM
Ball lightning is a good possible explanation. It is very rare for it to last that long but it has been reported. I have seen it once, directly after a close lightning strike about 500 feet away. After my eyes recovered from the flash there was an intense ball of light left about 50 feet above the ground and directly in the path the lightning had taken. It drifted to one side for about 10 seconds and fizzled out to nothing as it did. It wasn't an afterimage either.

loose nut
06-29-2011, 06:27 PM
DO-DEE-DO-DUU
D0-DEE-DO-DUU
DO-DEE-DO-DUU

Think what you want about what you think you saw but the only little green men you have to worry about are the soldiers that come out of a black helicopter and drag you off because you saw something you where not suppose to see and talked about it and now they know about you.

Be afraid be very afraid, there coming.

hareng
06-29-2011, 06:39 PM
Its amasing what a bottle of Wild Turkey can do:D

RB211
06-29-2011, 07:51 PM
Some small planes can find a 40mph headwind, go to the 42 mph stall speed and hover in relation to the ground.. the wind across the wings continues at stall speed or greater.

I have been trying to remember what "spotter plane" would stall at 42mph...??? Used in the vietnam conflict?? or?? It was a common low cost trainer for US students.. Cessena 40 comes to mind, but I am not sure..

Remember the triangle UFO's on television?? they still show them shows even thou the stealth fighter and bomber has been revealed..

Military version of the J3 cub

Evan
06-29-2011, 07:56 PM
Not a J3 cub at all. The Military spotter was the L-19 made by Cessna. It also isn't a version of the Cessna 140 either. Stall speed on the L19 is probably well under 42 knots. There was one hanging from the ceiling in our classroom in aircraft sheet metal at Fort Eustis.

OK, I looked it up. The stall speed is actually 47 knots which is really high for that type of aircraft. That's 54 mph.

Cessna 140 stall speed is 39 knots, the original J3 Cub is 33 knots.

RB211
06-29-2011, 08:12 PM
Not a J3 cub at all. The Military spotter was the L-19 made by Cessna. It also isn't a version of the Cessna 140 either. Stall speed on the L19 is probably well under 42 knots. There was one hanging from the ceiling in our classroom in aircraft sheet metal at Fort Eustis.

OK, I looked it up. The stall speed is actually 47 knots which is really high for that type of aircraft. That's 54 mph.

Cessna 140 stall speed is 39 knots, the original J3 Cub is 33 knots.

Hmm, looking it up further, the L19 was based on the Cessna 170 and had an upgraded engine to over 200hp. 47 knot stall speed sounds perfect actually... Strange how the L19 looks like a small cub, yet in reality, is a Cessna 170...

Dawai
06-29-2011, 08:15 PM
Cub? a local Korean war veteran (deceased now) landed one with a engine that was seizing up. Smoking.. knocking.. losing power.. he put it down in a small pasture in between two barbed wire fences, came in, flared it out, dropped it onto the Georgia soil and the rollout was less than 10 feet.. It had to be carted out on truck.

what I remember, it had canvas seats.. Not much more memory cells left other than that.

Weston Bye
06-29-2011, 08:24 PM
Now if we are talking spotter planes in general there were many. Anything they could get, almost.
L2 Taylorcraft
L3 Aronca
L4 Piper (J3)
All of them went under the name Grasshopper.
These are just the names we would be familiar with. There were others.
Then later, the L19 Cessna Bird Dog.

Evan
06-29-2011, 08:29 PM
The L-19 isn't based on the 170 either. It has a totally different fuselage than the 170. It is an independent design. It has a single strut wing while the early 170s and 140s have a double strut wing. The L-19 Bird dog also was all metal from the start while the 140 and 170 both had fabric covered wings, hence the double struts.

RB211
06-29-2011, 08:36 PM
The L-19 isn't based on the 170 either. It has a totally different fuselage than the 170. It is an independent design. It has a single strut wing while the early 170s and 140s have a double strut wing. The L-19 Bird dog also was all metal from the start while the 140 and 170 both had fabric covered wings, hence the double struts.

Perhaps a play on words
http://www.warbirdalley.com/l19.htm

Too tired to look up the origins of the Cessna 185 but it looks like a natural progression in Cessna design from the 170, L19 to the 185.

Evan
06-29-2011, 08:43 PM
Look up the L-19. It doesn't resemble any of the other Cessnas. There are a few other odd birds in the Cessna lineup too. One in particular is the Cessna 195 with a big radial engine and the other is the Cessna A-37, a weaponized version of the twin jet T-37. It is one of the very few ground support aircraft with side by side seating. It is one of my favorite jet designs.

Abner
06-29-2011, 08:52 PM
loose nut- My experience was over 25 years ago, and I could easily be persuaded to not remember it for a cold beer and a sack of potato chips.
:o

aostling
06-30-2011, 12:00 AM
Cessna 140 stall speed is 39 knots, the original J3 Cub is 33 knots.

My pilot friend tells me this is why the J3 Cub is the star of the Valdez VTOL competition, shown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RsBBI55Wzo. It looks like twenty feet is ample for them to take off (in a breeze of course).

Evan
06-30-2011, 02:47 AM
The J3 is a neat aircraft but it kind of sucks when the traffic on the highway below is going faster than you. I have flown a Super Cub on floats and that is a bit better. The floats remove much of the advantage of the larger engine though and it has the glide angle of a brick.

batt-man
06-30-2011, 03:04 AM
Another possible explanation for what you could be seeing ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zM0m_Oeod8k

Guy i work with is a member of the Basingstoke kite flying club and they've caused more than their share of snarl-ups on the M3 during autumn/winter as people slow down to watch the "UFO's" ...:D

Batt

Evan
06-30-2011, 03:11 AM
Flying stunt kites at night is a blast. My son and I spent several hours formation flying at night at Beachside in Oregon one summer vacation. We used light sticks back then because LEDs weren't very bright but there was plenty of wind and a few light sticks don't make much difference to a six foot kite.

whitis
06-30-2011, 05:09 AM
I highly doubt it. I was bright enough to light the field below it substantially, not like daylight but very well lit. It would have taken a minimum of a 3/4 mile long cable to suspend this thing at the height it was. Given that it flew over a powerline I doubt even the best prankster would attempt to string a metal cable over that and live to talk about it. I estimate it to have been 3-4' in diameter. At first I suspected a large meteor but it held altitude and moved slow, no arc and no drop.

Faulty logic. An object does not need to be tethered to remain stationary or to appear to remain stationary. Untethered baloons, ball lighting, etc. can actually hover. Your perception of distance and size can also be completely wrong. Just look at the apparent change in size (and distance) of the moon when it is near the horizon. Objects seen aren't necessarily in the sky, either; inversion layers can reflect ground based light sources.

BTW, one prankster UFO is made by putting a candle in a tin can, lighting it, and duct taping a white garbage bag over it - illuminate hot air baloon. Can start fires, so resist the temptation.



At 10 miles away, just the smallest bit of movement on their part would have been easily seen by me and there wasn't any movement/wavering.

Faulty logic. The further away they are, the more motion it takes to be perceptible. And you were in a moving vehicle so your brain can cancel out movement.

However, the lights could have been completely stationary - tower based lights (like portable worklights - some of those are bright) and several days is plenty of time for them to be moved off site. It was XMAS and people do some pretty weird things then.

Ball lightning can do some pretty strange things - and can be dangerous.

Abner
06-30-2011, 09:00 AM
The images for ball lightning look about as close as I can remember to that night so long ago. Thanks guys.

Dawai
06-30-2011, 09:02 AM
Allan, I enjoyed that video very much.

I saw a Strange thing when I was about 15.. A thing that looked like a blimp, made a humming noise, had lights around the edges, shot off into the distance vertically like a pinball shot out of the gate. I suspect It was really a reflection on the clouds, but then the sound was there too.. I can not explain, people I told mocked me horribly.

Your mind sees things your eye does not at times, You feel things that are not real..
A ascending turn in a airplane feels just like level flight.. As you bank, pull back on the yoke slightly to add weight... If it is done smoothly, the transition is not felt.. I guess that is why people end upside down in clouds.. IFR ??

Rustybolt
06-30-2011, 09:21 AM
Some times,just for grins, I take some of those tissue paper hot air balloons in different colors and send them up. Between two and four in the morning.
Sometimes I make the local weekly.

daryl bane
06-30-2011, 01:23 PM
Of course, the timing of the OP's sighting and this is interesting. And I am not implying the OP is making this up, but maybe the objects are related? Who knows?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/29/london-ufos-multiple-peop_n_887030.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cnetscape%7Cdl12%7Csec1_lnk1%7C74486

airsmith282
06-30-2011, 02:23 PM
Of course, the timing of the OP's sighting and this is interesting. And I am not implying the OP is making this up, but maybe the objects are related? Who knows?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/29/london-ufos-multiple-peop_n_887030.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cnetscape%7Cdl12%7Csec1_lnk1%7C74486

whats shown in the video is very interesting, and seems how they manuver and also very unlike and conventional aircraft , what i can tell you is that thoes so called little grey men have been around alot longer then you might want to know but then some say iam nuts for this but i know better and thats then end of that stament. any how what was seen in the back yard form the guy that started the thread could have been anything but a J3 makes alot of noise, and so do many other small aircraft so not likely one of them if no sound was heard at all.. ummmmmm
\
the b52 and stealth f117a both have antigravity techknolegdy and have for many years now,, i would not be surpirsed if many other aircraft have this as well , by now , and i do know the military have been doing alot of testing with different designs over the years and to include disc shaped aircraft as well . its very interesting where alot of this stuff comes from,
if you noticed in the video of the one or 2 disc shape ones they did hover and hten just shot off, convenional aircraft can not do this other then the aires but even stll it cant pull it off at the speeds seen or angle for that mattrer , unless it was military flying discs that were up there,

Rustybolt
06-30-2011, 03:10 PM
I think you'll find somebody is taking a piss.

Evan
06-30-2011, 03:48 PM
the b52 and stealth f117a both have antigravity techknolegdy and have for many years now,,


http://ixian.ca/smiley/roflmao.gif

lynnl
06-30-2011, 04:33 PM
Antigravity huh?
I guess they have to keep 'em tied down to the ground anytime they're not flying. :)

Seastar
06-30-2011, 05:06 PM
Most of the reports of UFO's close to where I live are caused by me.
I buy and fly Chinese paper hot air ballons - candle powered.
On calm summer nights they are almost always good for a few UFO reports.
Try it, it's a lot of fun to scare your neighbors - LOL.
Bill

TGTool
06-30-2011, 05:40 PM
Antigravity huh?
I guess they have to keep 'em tied down to the ground anytime they're not flying. :)

Actually it's quite safe. The interlocks assure that the antigravity mechanisms are only operative when the engines are running and they're calibrated with forward speed so that, generally speaking, you have to attain a certain airspeed before the antigravity forces become greater than the weight of the plane. Widely used. Dunno what anybody is laughing about. :rolleyes:

vpt
06-30-2011, 06:23 PM
Of course, the timing of the OP's sighting and this is interesting. And I am not implying the OP is making this up, but maybe the objects are related? Who knows?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/29/london-ufos-multiple-peop_n_887030.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cnetscape%7Cdl12%7Csec1_lnk1%7C74486




Thats neat but not like I saw. It was night time and just a single bright white light moving at a constant or very little variation in speed across the sky in what it seemed to be a big arc (coming strait from east and last I saw looked like it was going south east).

loose nut
06-30-2011, 06:39 PM
loose nut- My experience was over 25 years ago, and I could easily be persuaded to not remember it for a cold beer and a sack of potato chips.
:o

Abner I wasn't aiming that directly at you but everyone that thinks they have seen a UFO.

If a plane, flying at night with only its aspect (navigation) lights on, travels from left to right then banks and turns into the observer on the ground, continues for a couple of minutes then pulls straight up what does the observer see. A couple of flashing lights that are traveling from left to right then pause for a couple of minutes and shoot straight up.

Must be a UFO. Don't believe everything that you think you know.

John Stevenson
06-30-2011, 07:18 PM
Actually it's quite safe. The interlocks assure that the antigravity mechanisms are only operative when the engines are running and they're calibrated with forward speed so that, generally speaking, you have to attain a certain airspeed before the antigravity forces become greater than the weight of the plane. Widely used. Dunno what anybody is laughing about. :rolleyes:

I think the tecknickal term is called Flying :rolleyes:

sasquatch
06-30-2011, 07:42 PM
When i was about 14,, (Many moons ago,) while taking a break from playing road hockey at night we were lying back on the edge of the road and we did see a strange circular object slowly moving across the sky, it then took off very fast,, in a big very large arc??? So, who knows????

One thing about UFO's,, no one can say for sure there aren't any, as no one knows what is out there in the massive Galaxies.

gwilson
06-30-2011, 08:02 PM
Or from a different dimension that is nearby. Evan,aren't there now about 11 dimensions that scientists think exist? Maybe I'm wrong about that.

RB211
06-30-2011, 08:08 PM
Anti Gravity devices? Pissing on the laws of physics are we?

airsmith282
06-30-2011, 08:57 PM
http://ixian.ca/smiley/roflmao.gif

shows how uninformed you are and for good reason to iam sure...

keep looking to the stars evan its what you do..

lazlo
06-30-2011, 09:15 PM
the b52 and stealth f117a both have antigravity techknolegdy and have for many years now

You realize the B52 is an obsolete aircraft that's been produced since 1952?

It's the B2 that has anti-gravity techknolegdy. It also has a cloaking device.

Evan
06-30-2011, 09:29 PM
Evan,aren't there now about 11 dimensions that scientists think exist? Maybe I'm wrong about that.

That is a part of some variations of string theory. Eleven isn't the only number proposed. It makes no practical difference to us. If these extra dimensions exist the theory also demands that they are "rolled up" to an infinitesimal size.

To explain further think of a 2 dimensional matrix with rows and columns.

It can be represented by coordinates in two dimensions, x,y. Then add a third dimension, x,y,z. That's it for our mental ability to visualize dimensions but mathematically there is no limit. In math you may use more dimensions such as x,y,z,a which gives a system with 4 coordinates to define a locus within the matrix. More may be added with no particular difficulty within the framework of mathematics but it makes the solutions far more complex. Eleven dimensions to represent reality are required by some theories but the dimensions beyond the three with which we are familiar have infinitely small values.

airsmith282
06-30-2011, 09:39 PM
You realize the B52 is an obsolete aircraft that's been produced since 1952?

It's the B2 that has anti-gravity techknolegdy. It also has a cloaking device.

Retired Air Force Colonel Donald Ware has passed on to me information from a three-star general he knows who revealed to him in July that "the new Lockheed-Martin space shuttle [National Space Plane] and the B-2 [Stealth bomber] both have electro-gravitic systems on board;" and that "this explains why our 21 Northrup B-2s cost about a billion dollars each." Thus, after taking off conventionally, the B-2 can switch to antigravity mode, and, I have heard, fly around the world without refueling.

I have also heard, and deduced for myself after inspecting a Stealth F-117A fighter at Beale Air Force Base, that the F-117A _also_ has hybrid propulsion and lift technologies, utilizing conventional thrust for public take-offs and landings, but switching to antigravity mode for extended cruising range, for lightning-fast maneuverability, and for shrouding the airframe in invisibility (by having its local counter-gravity field bend light around the airframe). The notorious extremely-unstable lift and forward-motion of the F-117A is merely temporary, until it moves into antigravity mode, where independent field propulsion provides stability. {Unfortunately for the pilot who went down in an air show over Maryland, his Stealth fighter was in conventional jet- thrust mode at the time.)

Further commentary, revealing that the government eventually plans to release antigravity technology publicly, is provided by Colonel Ware. "Apparently this highly controlled military program was used to gain experience with 4th-density technology that may transform civil aviation after all national leaders choose peace."

In a perhaps unrelated aside, Colonel Ware stated that his two brothers are on a list to receive free electricity machines by United Community Services of America (UCSA) in New Jersey. "They [UCSA] claim to have produced 50,000 machines and are preparing to install them on selected homes. They say they will provide free electricity to the home owner and sell the excess power to the power company." Col. Ware adds cryptically, "I wonder if this environmentally-friendly technology is associated in any way with alien liaison."

Richard Boylan, Ph.D.
2826 O Street, Suite 2, Sacramento, CA 95816, USA.
(916) 455-0120 E-mail: rich.boylan@24stex.com
Primary website: www.ufonetwork.com/boylan/
Author: Close Extraterrestrial Encounters, Labored Journey To The Stars and Project Epiphany

i knew all about the stealth F117A having antigravity techknolwedgy when it was first realesed it was no surprise to me at all .. but even today there are alot of people that dont belive it when i tell them but thats ok i dont care what other belive i know what i know ..

and so many think we have not achived this ability even now hahahahhahahahahhahahahahahaahaha , fools if you keep beliving that way ,

Rustybolt
06-30-2011, 09:52 PM
You realize the B52 is an obsolete aircraft that's been produced since 1952?

It's the B2 that has anti-gravity techknolegdy. It also has a cloaking device.




Personaly. I welcome our Romulan overlords.

Evan
06-30-2011, 09:52 PM
The real problem with believing that nonsense is that it impairs your ability to make decisions that are properly grounded in reality. That can result in decisions that may be detrimental to your financial well being and even your safety and health.

Rustybolt
06-30-2011, 09:56 PM
Are there ufos?

Certainly there are a lot of things flying around at night that I don't recognize, but that does nor mean they are being flown around by people from another galaxy. It just means that there's a machine or phenomenon that I'm not familiar with.
Science is our friend.

Evan
06-30-2011, 10:01 PM
Believing in UFOs piloted by aliens is a religion. The only thing that makes it different from conventional religions is that there is even less evidence to support it.

RB211
06-30-2011, 10:38 PM
Retired Air Force Colonel Donald Ware has passed on to me information from a three-star general he knows who revealed to him in July that "the new Lockheed-Martin space shuttle [National Space Plane] and the B-2 [Stealth bomber] both have electro-gravitic systems on board;" and that "this explains why our 21 Northrup B-2s cost about a billion dollars each." Thus, after taking off conventionally, the B-2 can switch to antigravity mode, and, I have heard, fly around the world without refueling.

I have also heard, and deduced for myself after inspecting a Stealth F-117A fighter at Beale Air Force Base, that the F-117A _also_ has hybrid propulsion and lift technologies, utilizing conventional thrust for public take-offs and landings, but switching to antigravity mode for extended cruising range, for lightning-fast maneuverability, and for shrouding the airframe in invisibility (by having its local counter-gravity field bend light around the airframe). The notorious extremely-unstable lift and forward-motion of the F-117A is merely temporary, until it moves into antigravity mode, where independent field propulsion provides stability. {Unfortunately for the pilot who went down in an air show over Maryland, his Stealth fighter was in conventional jet- thrust mode at the time.)

Further commentary, revealing that the government eventually plans to release antigravity technology publicly, is provided by Colonel Ware. "Apparently this highly controlled military program was used to gain experience with 4th-density technology that may transform civil aviation after all national leaders choose peace."

In a perhaps unrelated aside, Colonel Ware stated that his two brothers are on a list to receive free electricity machines by United Community Services of America (UCSA) in New Jersey. "They [UCSA] claim to have produced 50,000 machines and are preparing to install them on selected homes. They say they will provide free electricity to the home owner and sell the excess power to the power company." Col. Ware adds cryptically, "I wonder if this environmentally-friendly technology is associated in any way with alien liaison."

Richard Boylan, Ph.D.
2826 O Street, Suite 2, Sacramento, CA 95816, USA.
(916) 455-0120 E-mail: rich.boylan@24stex.com
Primary website: www.ufonetwork.com/boylan/
Author: Close Extraterrestrial Encounters, Labored Journey To The Stars and Project Epiphany

i knew all about the stealth F117A having antigravity techknolwedgy when it was first realesed it was no surprise to me at all .. but even today there are alot of people that dont belive it when i tell them but thats ok i dont care what other belive i know what i know ..

and so many think we have not achived this ability even now hahahahhahahahahhahahahahahaahaha , fools if you keep beliving that way ,
You forgot to add,
Please include your full name, address, social security #, photo of your drivers license, and bank account information if you would like further information on this technology.

vpt
06-30-2011, 10:48 PM
Believing in UFOs piloted by aliens is a religion. The only thing that makes it different from conventional religions is that there is even less evidence to support it.




http://ixian.ca/smiley/roflmao.gif

Racebrewer
06-30-2011, 11:14 PM
But, why would advanced alien civilizations come to Earth?

Surely they must already have Comedy Central on their 3-D TV's????

John

Arcane
06-30-2011, 11:24 PM
If there is one thing we can glean from Airsmith's posts, it's that a tin foil hat is NOT a thinking cap! :D

vpt
06-30-2011, 11:24 PM
But, why would advanced alien civilizations come to Earth?

Surely they must already have Comedy Central on their 3-D TV's????

John


But they are in a dead zone.

TGTool
06-30-2011, 11:49 PM
The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that it has never tried to contact us. - Bill Watterson

RB211
07-01-2011, 12:21 AM
I have no reason to doubt that in another solar system, at some point, there was life, maybe even as advanced as ours, or more so, and maybe they are still alive, or perhaps they died off a billion years ago. If you go based on science how we came to be, there is no reason the same theories can't be applied elsewhere in the universe. However as Evan has stated, there is no evidence of them visiting us in flying saucers.

Evan
07-01-2011, 01:16 AM
One thing about UFO's,, no one can say for sure there aren't any, as no one knows what is out there in the massive Galaxies.

More important is that nobody can say that there ARE any. Habeas Corpus, please. The onus is on the prosecution to prove existence of the body. We can be pretty certain there is nobody using high technology within 20 light years of us. There isn't the slightest hint of technology in use near any of the stars in the range. We have exhaustively studied each and every one of them.

Of those ~135 stellar objects only about 7 are similar to our sun. The majority are red dwarfs which may have planets but if they do the habitable zone for our type of life is very narrow. The closest such red star is Proxima Centauri at a distance of 4.22 light years. It is possible that it may have a planet or two but becuase it's energy output is so much lower than our sun the habitable zone is much closer to the star.

As a student of astronomy I have a strong interest in these matters and have done a lot of research on anything related to the possibilities of exploring such relatively close worlds. Unfortunately, the prognosis for life to exist on such a planet is not good. Planets that form very close to a sun are very unlikely to have water. The early life of a star that size is very energetic as it burns hydrogen and the star is very hot. After a relatively long phase the star then switches to burning the heavier elements it produces by the fusion of hydrogen and helium.

It doesn't have enough mass to sustain such fusion of the heavier elements except in a very small core zone. Then it turns red and the energy output falls tremendously. By then the close planets that were first baked dry may cool to temperatures that would permit life if only there were some water left.

Much more likely is a planet that looks like this rendering I have done. The liquid is pure sulphuric acid which rains from the sulphuric acid clouds similar to the ones that cover Venus. The difference is that this planet is cool enough for sulphuric acid to exist as a liquid. It causes severe erosion as can be seen in the landscape and there is no likelyhood of complex life forms existing without oxygen. No other chemical reaction can produce enough energy to support large life forms that are massively multi cellular.

http://ixian.ca/pics8/proxima3.jpg

Dawai
07-01-2011, 07:08 AM
Some days I am not sure intelligent life exists on "this" planet. (see moron who gave Ashton the finger during Casey Anthony trial in Florida)

Aliens? yep.. They post signs on telephone poles in Mexico to attract them to my locale, (mill town) so they can keep labor costs cheap. Those are hard working people who just want a chance to succeed. And the "others" that come in with them to prey on the fringes.

vpt
07-01-2011, 10:27 AM
However as Evan has stated, there is no evidence of them visiting us in flying saucers.


That we know of, because when/if something is found our government is the first one to post it in the paper.

Evan
07-01-2011, 10:40 AM
The single most important reason that we can be sure that there are not alien vistors here is because there isn't any way to get here from "there", wherever there may be.

lazlo
07-01-2011, 10:59 AM
We've only had organized science for around 300 years. 150 years ago, most engineers and physicists thought powered manned flight was impossible.

We don't know what we don't know.

Evan
07-01-2011, 11:16 AM
It's what we do know that matters. The universe has a speed limit and it is very low compared to its size. Approaching that speed limit is takes extraordinary, staggering and unimaginable amounts of energy. We know that. We also know that throughout the observable universe the rules are the same.

We also know that the universe has a rule that exceptions to the rules are always hidden from view to prevent paradoxes. This last is the most important part. It is a rule that is not well understood but is well known. It is governed by the laws of thermodynamics and has been confirmed repeatedly in every area of science. No other rule is better confirmed or more often tested. The rule is best summarized as "There is no free lunch".

vpt
07-01-2011, 11:17 AM
We've only had organized science for around 300 years. 150 years ago, most engineers and physicists thought powered manned flight was impossible.

We don't know what we don't know.



That right there explains it all. Just because we haven't seen it or understand how it works doesn't mean it doesn't exist or doesn't work.


We still haven't explored all of our own planet and we are gonna say no other living things exist millions and billions of miles or lightyears from us? lol

Evan
07-01-2011, 11:27 AM
We still haven't explored all of our own planet and we are gonna say no other living things exist millions and billions of miles or lightyears from us? lol

It is certain that they exist. We can't be the only sentient beings in the universe. They just can't get here from there and vice versa.

Evan
07-01-2011, 11:30 AM
150 years ago, most engineers and physicists thought powered manned flight was impossible.



They were completely uneducated. By the time I was six years old I knew more about science than they did.

vpt
07-01-2011, 11:31 AM
It is certain that they exist. We can't be the only sentient beings in the universe. They just can't get here from there and vice versa.



Why can't they? We just think you can only travel so fast because we haven't done it yet. Maybe they can travel whatever speed they desire even faster then light.

At one time we thought the end of the world would come if we went faster then the speed of sound. We broke that barrier and now say well, you can't travel faster then the speed of light because all hell will break loose. What will we say if/when we break that barrier?

Evan
07-01-2011, 11:40 AM
At one time we thought the end of the world would come if we went faster then the speed of sound. We broke that barrier and now say well, you can't travel faster then the speed of light because all hell will break loose. What will we say if/when we break that barrier?

The speed of light isn't a barrier. It is the point where the kinetic energy of motion becomes equal to infinity. To accelerate matter to the speed of light requires an infinite amount of energy. That is a part of the no free lunch rule.

Rex
07-01-2011, 11:46 AM
Was it Heinlein who wrote "A technology sufficiently advanced will appear as magic" ?

I'm with the "We don't know what we don't know" camp.

The barrier is our own knowledge of God's creation.

Evan
07-01-2011, 12:02 PM
Was it Heinlein who wrote "A technology sufficiently advanced will appear as magic" ?

I'm with the "We don't know what we don't know" camp.

The barrier is our own knowledge of God's creation

If the rules are consistent it isn't necessary to know all of them to constrain the ones we don't know. If they aren't consistent then there are no rules. Since there appears to be a strict consistency to the rules we do know then we must expect that undiscovered rules will fit within the framework of the rules we do know.

If they do not then we may as well stop practicing science and take up crystal gazing.

It was Arthur C Clarke that wrote "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". He didn't say it was magic however. We are at a point where science already appears to be magic to the great majority of the population.

vpt
07-01-2011, 12:16 PM
The "rules" are made up by man like 'time'. Just because we think something is impossible doesn't mean it really is.

People talk about traveling threw time... 'Time' is created by man and isn't a literal thing that some think we can possibly travel to different 'time' destinations.


Saying it takes an infinite amount of energy to travel at the speed of light is just based on what people know. What is actually possible might be something like it would only take a table spoon of water to get to the speed of light with the right technology.

lazlo
07-01-2011, 12:22 PM
If the rules are consistent it isn't necessary to know all of them to constrain the ones we don't know.

We don't know the rules either.

The theory of General Relativity is only 95 years old, and it contradicts quantum mechanics in many areas. A big one is that we don't know what causes gravity -- General Relativity states that gravity is caused by the curvature of space-time, but that doesn't work in quantum mechanics, which predicts the existence of a graviton particle.

That's the primary reason they built the Large Hadron Collider...

We're learning, but we're still apes throwing bones at the black obelisk :)

Pete F
07-01-2011, 01:17 PM
Faster Than Light: Superluminal Loopholes in Physics (http://www.amazon.com/Faster-Than-Light-Superluminal-Loopholes/dp/0452263174/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1309540325&sr=1-1) is an interesting read, although my take on it was that many of the loopholes are likely to be edge cases where the math breaks down. But, what do I know?

-Pete

Evan
07-01-2011, 01:25 PM
The theory of General Relativity is only 95 years old, and it contradicts quantum mechanics in many areas.

So what if it is only 95 years old. The age of a theory doesn't have anything to do with correctness. It also does not contradict quantum theory at all. It doesn't deal with that part of physics.

AD5MB
07-01-2011, 01:27 PM
I have been trying to remember what "spotter plane" would stall at 42mph...??? Used in the vietnam conflict?? or?? It was a common low cost trainer for US students.. Cessena 40 comes to mind, but I am not sure..

T41 Mescalero. A Cessna 172 with military paint.

Evan
07-01-2011, 01:32 PM
is an interesting read, although my take on it was that many of the loopholes are likely to be edge cases where the math breaks down. But, what do I know?



Did you read the book and understand it?

Superluminal effects are well known and explained. They include the Casimir effect and the interesting effect produced when light travels at a right angle to our field of view while the emitter approaches us at high velocity. In neither case is the velocity of light exceeded. In particular, in the Casimir effect the value of C is altered by an exceedingly small amount in a very local area due to quantum effects.

Nothing that has been discovered poses any unresolvable contradictions to the rest of what we know.

lazlo
07-01-2011, 01:38 PM
So what if it is only 95 years old. The age of a theory doesn't have anything to do with correctness.

Newtonian physics was generally considered correct for over 200 years, until Einstein proved that it didn't work for massive or very fast objects (general relativity), and Planck discovered that it doesn't work at sub-atomic sizes.

So now we have three disjoint theories of physics.


It also does not contradict quantum theory at all. It doesn't deal with that part of physics.

You're saying that gravity as described by general relativity is consistent with quantum gravity? :rolleyes:

Evan
07-01-2011, 01:58 PM
Newtonian physics was generally considered correct for over 200 years, until Einstein proved that it didn't work for massive or very fast objects (general relativity), and Planck discovered that it doesn't work at sub-atomic sizes.

So now we have three disjoint theories of physics.


No, what we have is theories that are correct in their own domain. Newtonians physics is what NASA uses to navigate spacecraft and it seems to work pretty well. It is an incomplete theory as is relativity and quantum mechanics. Each works very well within the domain it describes.

Quantum gravity isn't a theory. It is a hypothesis that is so far unproven. As such it neither contradicts relativity or confirms it.

Pete F
07-01-2011, 02:00 PM
Did you read the book and understand it?

Yes, and I think so. It was 20 years ago, so my recollection may be somewhat muddied. However, I was not trying to make the point that superluminal effects do not exist. Rather, if I recall correctly, not all the loopholes discussed in the book had been observed, and that is what I was referring to - effects predicted by math, but until they are observed, you really never know.

-Pete

lazlo
07-01-2011, 02:12 PM
Quantum gravity isn't a theory. It is a hypothesis that is so far unproven. As such it neither contradicts relativity or confirms it.

Quantum mechanics describes 3 of the 4 fundamental forces of nature: weak, strong, electromagnetic. Electromagnetism was proven to be comprised of photons, the weak force was predicted (and then proven) by quantum mechanics to be propagated by bosons, and gluons were predicted and proven to be the force carrier for the strong force.

If the four forces are symmetric, and most physicists believe they are, then there must be a force carrier for gravity -- the graviton. But the graviton does not work with Einstein's theory of relativity, which states that gravity is caused by curvature in space-time.

So all the current Grand Unified Theories, including String theory, attempt to explain the existence of gravitons within the mathematics of relativity.

It ain't going so well...

Evan
07-01-2011, 02:29 PM
Sounds like an interesting book. I'll have to see if the library can get it. I am interested to see how the predictions made have held up over 20 years. There has been a great deal of new understanding since that time. In fact, very recently an Australian student has made a major contribution to the understanding of dark matter.

http://www.universetoday.com/85927/australian-student-uncovers-the-universes-missing-mass/

Evan
07-01-2011, 02:33 PM
So all the current Grand Unified Theories, including String theory, attempt to explain the existence of gravitons within the mathematics of relativity.

It ain't going so well...

So far relativity theory is the winner. It isn't going well for the alternative theories. Relativity explains thing so very accurately that something very much like it will have to be included in any "Theory of Everthing".

I have to log off now. One of the forum members is on his way up from Seattle to visit and I have some tidying to do. :eek:

kendall
07-01-2011, 02:38 PM
Was it Heinlein who wrote "A technology sufficiently advanced will appear as magic" ?

I'm with the "We don't know what we don't know" camp.

The barrier is our own knowledge of God's creation.

One of Arthur C. Clarke's three 'laws'.
1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Also, the title of a book by Robert L. Forward, which examines the concept in novel form.

vpt
07-01-2011, 03:24 PM
I bet the aliens know all about this stuff, sure wish they would land and explain some stuff to us.

loose nut
07-01-2011, 11:05 PM
The single most important reason that we can be sure that there are not alien vistors here is because there isn't any way to get here from "there", wherever there may be.

Actually, a young scientist, 26 ish, proved mathematically that a "star trek" type warp field that could propel a ship extreme distances all most instantly was not only possible but relatively easily. The limiting factor is the power requirements, large (equal to a gas giant converted to energy) but not in the realm of trying to beat light speed, which according to relativity is impossible because it would require infinite power. If an alien race is able to develop power generation at these levels then it would be possible for them to come here.

The big question would be "why".

Generating the power required for a trip here, while impossible for us but maybe possible for a much more advanced race would still take enormous resources and using that kind of energy expenditure to come and see us would be unlikely. I doubt that we are that interesting. Only aliens close by would be able to justify using high energy levels for travel to earth and as Evan already stated there is no evidence that here are any in the neighborhood.

Evan
07-02-2011, 12:28 AM
Actually, a young scientist, 26 ish, proved mathematically that a "star trek" type warp field that could propel a ship extreme distances all most instantly was not only possible but relatively easily.


Not so fast. That particular thought experiment made one very large assumption, the existence of "negative energy". While it is a convenient mathematical "trick" it doesn't work in reality. The same assumption is used when postulating "worm holes" and the same result ensues. To open a wormhole big enough for a small space ship to pass would require the energy equivalent of all the mass in the universe.

A similar mathematical trick can be applied to the equations of special relativity. The equations are symmetrical below and above the speed of light. Because of that it is possible to calculate the energies that would be required for a particle to travel faster than light. There is even a name for such a hypothetical particle, the Tachyon. It is only a mathematical fiction though.

.RC.
07-02-2011, 04:04 AM
It is the probing the aliens do that is more scary then the UFO's...

John Stevenson
07-02-2011, 04:58 AM
Sounds like an interesting book. I'll have to see if the library can get it. I am interested to see how the predictions made have held up over 20 years. There has been a great deal of new understanding since that time. In fact, very recently an Australian student has made a major contribution to the understanding of dark matter.

http://www.universetoday.com/85927/australian-student-uncovers-the-universes-missing-mass/

That's rubbish :(

Joseph Lucas knew more about that subject in 1914 that has been written today. :D

loose nut
07-02-2011, 08:07 AM
While it is a convenient mathematical "trick" it doesn't work in reality.

Evan, have you been reading this thread, none of this works in reality.

airsmith282
07-02-2011, 09:26 AM
Evan, have you been reading this thread, none of this works in reality.

your really sure about that are you ,hey iam not expert but i do know for a fact that compared to other alien races we are a joke and our laws of physics are just as much of one and so is our understanding on math and so on ,

their are races out there far more advance then we cant even hope to imagine,,dont think your self so sure unless you have the facts saying somthing can not be done,cause i can tell you it can be done and to requie the mass of the universe that was funny as hell i almost fell of my chair , reading that one hahahahahaha\\

reality is a funny thing its what we preceve it to be, on one hand some say we are just and echo , some other would have us belive we just keep reapeating our lives over and over , on another hand some thing we just plain dont exist but think we do now thats a good one, and their are some that also belive that when we die we goto heaven the everlasting bliss and joy to be with god, \

now i do belive in god and i dont belive we just keep repeating our lives, and i know for a fact we are here and we are all real,

i also know for fact were are not alone in the universe and that we have been and still are being guided and or helped by others from other worlds to me this all makes sence ..

if you want to keep beliveing that there is no such thing or its never happened then keep on that track really it dont matter to me..

what we once called gods we now know are not gods but a race far advaced the us,,

there are many that will never belive it untill the meet a grey alien or some other non human that you would defentlay in your mind call and alien but not all aliens are non human looking your next door neibour your husband or wife may be one and you would never even clue in ever, thats the part thats scary well sort of ..

the goveremnts would perfer we all stay clues mindless wads and just accpet all this new crap they shove in our faces will they benifit in ways we could only dream of,

you think your vote counts or gives you rights ,, every time someone trys to get informtion on discloser of aliens what happens you get alot of papers with alot of stuff blacked out that there is no way to see whats under it all. ummmmmm

when the military changed there story 3 days after from alines and flying sasucer to weather ballon that raised some concer and has ever sence, now if the us military can not tell the difference between a flying saucer and aliens and a weather ballon well i fell really safe now how about you..

in recoded history amoge astromers before we even had the power of flight they had seen stuff that just could not be explained we never even had satalights then either ummmmmm i wounder,

bermuta triangel some weired stuf has happen there for long long long long time hasent it, ummmm

cops pilots some military personal have been reporting some pretty strage stuff and these are all well respected people and they have nothing to gain at all form what they have experienced not to mention ufo sitings are getting more and more comman everyday in many parts of the world a bit to comman ,, true alot of that stuff is fake but for the ones that no one can explain umm ,,but sightings are not the big picture, how we have advance sence roswell is ..and roswell is not the only place this has happened russian and many other places have had similer things happen as well and look at our culters who are the most advaced the bigger question is why only these specific ones ..

going faster then light speed can be done and you dont need the power of the univers to get to warp facter 1 as some one mentioned that was funny..

like i said before some of the smartest people in the world dont even know how to check or change the oil in their own car some dont even have the skills to drive a car just shows how smart they are ya right ..

its very aparent humans are getting smarter all the time , genatic breeding is one way we have found to create smarter and smarter off spring but its not the end all to be all , the japenese fiquired that way out long agp ,

take 2 really smart people and make a kid and boom you got a really smart kid that that kid and another kid the same get a smarter one and so on , take average and average and you get a bit above average, or first stage to just below the bar of really smart, get the idea ,
its all chemistry there..

some one gave the idea to some one long ago and then the experiments started and when the results proved positive things got rolling but lets also look at physics and quantam physcis then you have therortical physcis and a few others they all have many things in comman , but physics it self it not enough to do all we have be able to accomplish in the the last while,

what i fail to see is how so many can be so blind to all that is around them ,
no evidence iam seeing there is way to much supporting but the comman excuse is were smart and we did it all on our own , and iam telling you its impossible for that be true out history out time here so far on earth our last 8000 years proves how not so smart we all have been and nothing takes off like wild fire like it has in the last only 200 years come on reality check is totaly required here for sure..


ill keep laughing you keep heckling ill keep laughing somemore..

just because you dont see something does not mean its not real or not thereif you opened your eyes you just might see and understand ...
have a good weekend guys

Arcane
07-02-2011, 10:14 AM
............come on reality check is totaly required here for sure.............





Truer words were never spoke... :rolleyes:

Abner
07-02-2011, 10:15 AM
My only hope that is when I die there is an afterlife. I have already stated out loud that God had better reserve some time for me because I have a lot of questions that I would like some answers too, and I'm not religious. Space aliens are a lot lower on the list than questions like what lies beyond the farthest star, and what lies beyond that, and what lies beyond that.......

lynnl
07-02-2011, 11:10 AM
Airsmith, you ought to quit smoking that stuff! See what it's done to your brain?

RB211
07-02-2011, 12:09 PM
Airsmith, you ought to quit smoking that stuff! See what it's done to your brain?
What do you mean? I see TONS of aliens all over the place, they make pretty good burritos!

John Stevenson
07-02-2011, 12:23 PM
My only hope that is when I die there is an afterlife. I have already stated out loud that God had better reserve some time for me because I have a lot of questions that I would like some answers too, and I'm not religious. Space aliens are a lot lower on the list than questions like what lies beyond the farthest star, and what lies beyond that, and what lies beyond that.......

NO WAY.

I don't want no stinking afterlife, when I go I want total blackness, silence and nothing else, no bloody electric motors, no bloody honey do list.

Anyone wakes me up gets haunted

John Stevenson
07-02-2011, 12:27 PM
Hey I am not expert but I do know for a fact that compared to other alien races we are a joke and our laws of physics are just as much of one and so is our understanding on math and so on.

Can you let us into the secret so we can compare for ourselves the other alien races ?

You are not one of these people, with all their worldly goods, who was beamed up for experiments and then returned to earth minus their dictionary are you ??

John S.

lazlo
07-02-2011, 12:37 PM
Yeah, but John, he coined the forum theme :D



I am not expert but I do know for a fact...

loose nut
07-02-2011, 04:33 PM
Airsmith, you ought to quit smoking that stuff! See what it's done to your brain?

Screw that. Just get him to pass it around, I want to see some aliens too.

Rosco-P
07-03-2011, 07:43 AM
its very aparent humans are getting smarter all the time , genatic breeding is one way we have found to create smarter and smarter off spring but its not the end all to be all , the japenese fiquired that way out long agp ,

take 2 really smart people and make a kid and boom you got a really smart kid that that kid and another kid the same get a smarter one and so on , take average and average and you get a bit above average, or first stage to just below the bar of really smart, get the idea ,
its all chemistry there..

some one gave the idea to some one long ago and then the experiments started and when the results proved positive things got rolling

Always thought it was the Germans who was experimenting with Eugenics a long time ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics
Maybe proof positive that the Japanese are way ahead in that field of work (Eugenics) is Asimo http://asimo.honda.com/
I know they have always claimed it was a robot, an intelligent machine, but I think it's a cyborg or "engineered human" built for off-world settlement.

Like in Blade Runner?

Don't ya'll agree?

Rustybolt
07-03-2011, 08:03 AM
Always thought it was the Germans who was experimenting with Eugenics a long time ago.


Actually it was the American progressive Margret Sanger who founded Planned Parenthood. To keep the " lesser races" and mental deficients from overpopulating civilized society. Her own brand of facism beat uncle adolf by a couple of decades.





What do you mean? I see TONS of aliens all over the place, they make pretty good burritos!


Mmmmmm. Burritos!

loose nut
07-03-2011, 08:55 AM
I know they have always claimed it was a robot, an intelligent machine, but I think it's a cyborg or "engineered human" built for off-world settlement.



I think there is a midget inside the suit.

If we are evolving into a smarter species, then after inventing the computer and the software to run it we should have evolved into something that could use a spell checker.

Rustybolt
07-03-2011, 09:54 AM
Or really sexy lady robots what can make tasty mexican food.
From outer space.

from now on , in this thread, you have to end every sentance with the phrase-from outer space.

loose nut
07-03-2011, 11:30 AM
Well why not, this thread has certainly gone to a "galaxy long ago and far far away". So it must be from outer space.

vpt
07-03-2011, 01:16 PM
We are just a science experiment for some other world from outer space.

Bob D.
07-03-2011, 06:20 PM
[QUOTE=loose nut]I think there is a midget inside the suit.


Like Huey and Dewey in "Silent Running" . Really were " little people" in robot suits. That's where George Lucas got the idea for R2D2....:)

So it must be from outer space.

gwilson
07-03-2011, 06:22 PM
The robots in Silent Running were amputees.

loose nut
07-03-2011, 07:38 PM
C3PO was real right. I mean there wasn't any room in it for a person.

sasquatch
07-03-2011, 07:59 PM
Years ago i had a couple of girl friends who were from outer space!!

One was out of it,, the other spaced out,, very strange creatures one did not want to tittle their antenna!!!:D

RB211
07-03-2011, 09:00 PM
Always thought it was the Germans who was experimenting with Eugenics a long time ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics
Maybe proof positive that the Japanese are way ahead in that field of work (Eugenics) is Asimo http://asimo.honda.com/
I know they have always claimed it was a robot, an intelligent machine, but I think it's a cyborg or "engineered human" built for off-world settlement.

Like in Blade Runner?

Don't ya'll agree?

Does anyone else start to laugh when they picture in their mind, Asimo running around with an assault rifle shooting everything that moves?

At Rat Land I watched Asimo. The ONLY thing I can note him for is bi-pedal movement, that in itself is a gigantic engineering feat. All the other hocus pocus bull crap Rat Land added to the show was scripted. I think I posted the video on this forum a few months ago?

Evan
07-03-2011, 10:43 PM
Asimo is just a simple machine with some cool mechanical systems. I don't recall the name of the very senior and respected Japanese researcher in the field of robotics and AI who recently stated that he has decided AI research is pretty much a dead end.

So call "robots" are that the Japanese have demonstrated have no more intelligence than your average video game.

boslab
07-04-2011, 12:24 AM
Asimo is on a par with some of the steelworkers i have known, some died out cos they forgot to breathe.
Wasent neural networking and parallel processing what the cyberneticists claimed to be the way to construct AI to powere autonomous robots?
i had heared that there was some heavy duty cad/cam software that did the toolpaths, picked the tools and even changed them when they got blunt by monitoring the kw on the motor, just stuff the dx file in and press go! science fiction i reckon!
mark

RB211
07-04-2011, 12:32 AM
Asimo is just a simple machine with some cool mechanical systems. I don't recall the name of the very senior and respected Japanese researcher in the field of robotics and AI who recently stated that he has decided AI research is pretty much a dead end.

So call "robots" are that the Japanese have demonstrated have no more intelligence than your average video game.
It is pretty hard to simulate the human brain with a bunch of do-while loops.. Hell, it IS a dead end!

RB211
07-04-2011, 12:57 AM
Asimo is on a par with some of the steelworkers i have known, some died out cos they forgot to breathe.
Wasent neural networking and parallel processing what the cyberneticists claimed to be the way to construct AI to powere autonomous robots?
i had heared that there was some heavy duty cad/cam software that did the toolpaths, picked the tools and even changed them when they got blunt by monitoring the kw on the motor, just stuff the dx file in and press go! science fiction i reckon!
mark

That is perfectly in the realm of the abilities of a computer, so is automatically landing an airliner. There is not a single computing platform that can do anything other than what it is programmed to do. No computer can "learn" and correlate experiences and then apply them to a new situation for success. Sure there are ways to approximate it within a narrow set of parameters, but nothing that can think on its own. The day that artificial intelligence can learn, correlate, and apply on its own will be the day that humans have made themselves obsolete! Reminds me of that TNG episode where they go to an outpost where everyone was killed by their own weapons systems.

Rosco-P
07-04-2011, 07:20 AM
Reminds me of that TNG episode where they go to an outpost where everyone was killed by their own weapons systems.

TNG? Help me out here.
What about the 'Autonomous Mobile Sword' that was used for perimeter definse in the movie Screamers? That's a darn good app. for A.I., much better than a minefield and a bunch of Claymores.

loose nut
07-04-2011, 10:09 PM
Asimo's only true function was it's ability to walk. It's directional control was simple radio control. They don't talk about that bit.

loose nut
07-04-2011, 10:16 PM
We will not likely be able to create a true AI BUT when every appliance or device made has a simple computer in it and they are all linked together on the web, which will eventually happen, like neurons connected in a brain like neuro net, it may achieve spontaneous awareness of itself and all of us.

No doubt the experience will drive it insane and it will kill us all. Welcome to the future.

gary350
07-04-2011, 10:54 PM
I have been building UFOs for years. Your in WI so you didn't see one of mine. I use to sell plans on ebay how to build them.

They are nothing more than hand made candle power hot air balloons. I use to build so pretty simple ones that took only about 1 hour to build. They would stop traffic on the freeway as they sent over. Total silent and light up like a bright light moving along at maybe 3 to 5 mph.

I sometimes build some larger UFOs that took several hours to build or send up 6 at a time.

Here is a link to a small one in my kitchen made from 18 birthday candles the small hard to find 1/8" diameter ones, 6 soft drinks straws, and a large size cleaners bag. Several 100 ft up they glow like a bright light. Sometimes they appear to go ON and OFF the bag fills up with smoke and the candles go almost complete out then the smoke goes out through the tiny vent in the top and all of a sudden the candles come back to life and the bag lights up again. Sometimes the if the vent hole is too small the bag lights up ON and OFF over and over. I have tracked some of these in my car for 20 miles.

http://home.earthlink.net/~gary350/balloon.jpg

You can build very large UFOs with News paper, glue and birthday candles. Cut strips of news paper and wrap it around a 5/16" metal rod glue the edge down with 50/50 elmers glue + water. Slide the paper tubes off of the rod. Take the 4 ft long soda straw tubes and glue 3 together in a triangle. Glue several triangles into a wagon wheel spoke shape. Cover it with thin paper from a shoe box or kitchen napkin paper. Leave the bottom open about a 2 ft circle for candles. Top vent needs to be aluminum foil with a 1" hole. The flying saucer shaper is about 10 ft diameter 4 ft thick. Candles on bottom side acts like ballast so it flies level. You can build them like blimps or what every shape you like. Ignite the candles then give it about 60 seconds to get warm and lift off.

How to make Chinese Sky Lanterns. http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to-make/sky-lanterns.asp

These hot air balloons will usually go up to a certain elevation and level off and stay there. If you launch these on a night after a rain when there is a lot of humidity in the air they don't go up very high maybe 200 ft maximum. On a good night they go up 500 to 800 ft. Some experementing is required with each balloon to determine how much heat it needs to fly. The hard to find 1/8" diameter birthday candles work great for me. The larger diameter spirl twist candles are too heavy to lift off in the small volume balloons. A cotton ball with alcohol works good too but it burns out faster than a candle. 20 years ago a propane lighter could be adjusted to burn a large 5" flame but the new lighters available today will not do that.

vpt
07-04-2011, 11:26 PM
I have seen those, it wasn't a bag, it was spot light bright.

Evan
07-04-2011, 11:50 PM
We will not likely be able to create a true AI BUT when every appliance or device made has a simple computer in it and they are all linked together on the web, which will eventually happen, like neurons connected in a brain like neuro net, it may achieve spontaneous awareness of itself and all of us.



The internet is basically a star configuration with only a relative few nodes that are multiply connected. That isn't at all like our brains which are massively parallel. It's very unlikely that the topology of the internet could give rise to an accidental AI since there are not nearly enough interconnections to operate in a fashion that resembles the only topology that we know really works.

The brain has around 10^15 synapses. That's 1,000,000,000,000,000 interconnections. Each neuron is directly connected to about 1000 other neurons. Each synapse utilizes about 1,400 different proteins and over 100 different chemicals to mediate the response of a vast number of different molecular receptors. The brain couldn't be more different from a Turing machine ( a binary computer).

Trying to simulate the operation of the brain with a computer is a futile exercise. Even our most massively parallel computers are hardly more powerful than a few dozen neurons, not enough to power even an ant. To approximate the brain will require about 12 orders of magnitude more complexity. That doesn't include any of the complexity found in each connection. That could easily add another 3 to 6 orders of additional complexity.

vpt
07-05-2011, 10:15 AM
Once the mechanics are down they might just skip the computer problems and start looking for brain donors.

Weston Bye
07-05-2011, 10:57 AM
...
The brain has around 10^15 synapses. That's 1,000,000,000,000,000 interconnections. Each neuron is directly connected to about 1000 other neurons. Each synapse utilizes about 1,400 different proteins and over 100 different chemicals to mediate the response of a vast number of different molecular receptors. The brain couldn't be more different from a Turing machine ( a binary computer).

Trying to simulate the operation of the brain with a computer is a futile exercise. Even our most massively parallel computers are hardly more powerful than a few dozen neurons, not enough to power even an ant. To approximate the brain will require about 12 orders of magnitude more complexity. That doesn't include any of the complexity found in each connection. That could easily add another 3 to 6 orders of additional complexity.

A better approximation of brain architecture would a relay logic machine control panel. In the early days of my machine tool control building career, before Programmable Controls, control panels contained tens to hundred of relays, all interconnected with wire, the wiring being the "program". Other than the Master Control circuit, all the circuits functioned in parallel, responding to their own inputs and controlling their own outputs, interacting with other parallel circuits if the machine function requiered, operating independently if it didn't.
These are true finite state machines - no true interactivity, no learning or adapting - just hardwiring. That being said, given enough relays, wire and labor, some adaptability and adjustment for process variations could be built in.
The point to be made is that the electrical architecture more resembles the brain than does a computer.

Evan
07-05-2011, 12:44 PM
That is basically the same as the control systems in the first copiers I worked on for Xerox. All relay logic with some machines containing around 100 relays. Cycle control was via a stack of multi lobed cams that acutuated microswitches as it turned. They mostly used the same type of relays for all the logic regardless of the number of contacts used. As a result I still have a big box of 24 vdc 4PDT gold plated contact relays and another box of similar 115vac relays. A lot of them have just one contact that is burned.

Evan
07-05-2011, 01:01 PM
Speaking of ants (which I mentioned), I was messing around with a big one recently. I partially mashed it, just enough to seriously disable it but not enough kill it. It couldn't walk anymore, it was curled up with all leg motions totally uncoordinated and random. As I watched it gradually reprogrammed the leg controls, finding pathways that still functioned and rerouting and reconnecting firing signals until the legs began to work. It started to drag itself around using the first pair of legs, then the second pair began to work and after about 5 minutes it had all legs working fairly well even though some were somewhat damaged.

We don't know how to do that with a computer, yet.

Weston Bye
07-05-2011, 02:01 PM
Speaking of ants...
Don't be too quick to attribute the ant's recovery solely to reprogramming. The ant may have been bruised internally, some swelling could impair nerve function that returned as the juices or whatever goes on inside an ant returned more or less to their customary position. Could be a combination of both effects.

Way off topic from the original post, but the original post was off topic anyway. Open season!

Mcgyver
07-05-2011, 02:48 PM
Way off topic from the original post, but the original post was off topic anyway. Open season!

After 14 pages I believe its more than just open season, you're allow to use bait, blinds, chum, snowmobiles & dynamite

Weston Bye
07-05-2011, 03:18 PM
Speaking of off-topic, aliens, UFO's ...

I weht and sat through the Transformers - Dark side of the Moon movie this weekend. (slim pickins at the theater - I've seen or outright rejected everything else there currently showing.

The movie requires massive suspension of disbelief for those who have any technical knowledge. I knew this going in, but still, it was almost painful.

Control systems aside, power transmissions and sources? Never once saw a robot stop to guzzle from a gas pump or plug into an outlet.

Mechanized rockem-sockem-robots fistfights, then they fold up into nice shiny automobiles with nary a scratch on the paintwork.

Flying craft with huge exhaust nozzles pointing rearward and no visible evidence of downward thrusters, cruising about the city at blimp speed.

Wrecked buildings keeling over, sure, with broken glass and junk falling, but no dust clouds like the World Trade Center - wouldn't be cinematic.

The movie was long and was a series of whiz-bang situations that depended on the following:

A plot that made liberal use of deus ex machina (god out of the machine - hey, maybe fitting for this movie)
a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object. -Wiki..


There are a multitude of others... too numerous, I grow weary...

added:
Maybe there was a machine shop scene in there somewhere, but I don't remember.

Evan
07-05-2011, 03:30 PM
Thanks for the review Weston. I was considering going to see it just because it is 3D and remotely related to science fiction but now I think I will pass.

Alistair Hosie
07-05-2011, 03:39 PM
I totally believe in UFO'S however thats just it *unidentified flying objects* not little green men etc.Those who believe in the elien life are just conning everyone else usually for money,with the tens of thousands of magazines and books that have been written.It undoubtably is a big earner for those poor souls dying to part with their easily gotten cash. .It's just like ghosts plenty of heresay and no evicence.I do believe we don't really die it's just the body in my humble opinion and many things I have witnessed and heard of.But the little men no sir not a bit of it.It's funny how these alien craft are always near a militery base. HO HO HEH HE:D give me a break HE HE Alistair

Alistair Hosie
07-05-2011, 03:43 PM
Speaking of ants (which I mentioned), I was messing around with a big one recently. I partially mashed it, just enough to seriously disable it but not enough kill it. It couldn't walk anymore, it was curled up with all leg motions totally uncoordinated and random. As I watched it gradually reprogrammed the leg controls, finding pathways that still functioned and rerouting and reconnecting firing signals until the legs began to work. It started to drag itself around using the first pair of legs, then the second pair began to work and after about 5 minutes it had all legs working fairly well even though some were somewhat damaged.

We don't know how to do that with a computer, yet.


Evan please how can you be sure this is what happened ins't it more likely you just stunned the little bastard ? and it was coming round that sounds a little more plausible than your outlandish theory of what transpired.Sorry it was stunned no computers required. Alistair

Evan
07-05-2011, 04:28 PM
How do you "stun" something that has no brain? The neural processing power of an ant is distributed. It doesn't have what we would call a "brain". The rewiring capability is well documented in insects and even extends to mammals and in particular humans. Because of the relative simplicity of the ant neural network "rewiring" can take place quickly. It is a survival strategy.

Alistair Hosie
07-05-2011, 05:02 PM
Evan you could be correct but although it as you say has no brain are you suggesting no neural system? no synapse? no chemical firing at the synapse etc how if it has none of these does it function,without a nervous system central or peripheral.? What about a cellular structure? I am just making a bit of fun in my last comments but what you say is something I never new existed in ants.Please explain further. respectfully Alstair

topct
07-05-2011, 05:31 PM
Evan you could be correct but although it as you say has no brain are you suggesting no neural system? no synapse? no chemical firing at the synapse etc how if it has none of these does it function,without a nervous system central or peripheral.? What about a cellular structure? I am just making a bit of fun in my last comments but what you say is something I never new existed in ants.Please explain further. respectfully Alstair

Look here,

http://insects.about.com/od/morphology/ss/internalanatomy_2.htm

Black_Moons
07-05-2011, 06:23 PM
Back to an older topic, While modren PC's are horrable at trying to simulate brain cells, FGPA's are much more suited to the task, being able to run millions of operations in parallel, Millions if not billions of times a second.

It might take a few more years, And maybe a few 'cheats' that highly optimise the computing of neurons at a small accuracy cost (Think what MP3 compression did for audio over the internet), But I highly suspect sometime during my lifetime, We'll have AI's on par with a 5 year old kid, at the very least. Hopefuly they don't throw a tantrum and take over humanity.

What I really hope for, is some time during my life time we successfuly make and mass produce devices to digitialy store a human brain and 'run it.'

lazlo
07-05-2011, 06:25 PM
I weht and sat through the Transformers - Dark side of the Moon movie this weekend. (slim pickins at the theater - I've seen or outright rejected everything else there currently showing.

The movie requires massive suspension of disbelief for those who have any technical knowledge. I knew this going in, but still, it was almost painful.

It's a Jerry Bruckheimer movie. The same guy who brought you Armageddon (where a crew of misfit oilfield workers fly space shuttles onto an incoming asteroid) and Pirates of the Caribbean, a quadrilogy based on a Disney World ride.

"Your IQ must be less than XX to watch this movie" :p

Rosco-P
07-05-2011, 06:37 PM
Speaking of off-topic, aliens, UFO's ...

I weht and sat through the Transformers - Dark side of the Moon movie this weekend. (slim pickins at the theater - I've seen or outright rejected everything else there currently showing.

The movie requires massive suspension of disbelief for those who have any technical knowledge. I knew this going in, but still, it was almost painful.

Control systems aside, power transmissions and sources? Never once saw a robot stop to guzzle from a gas pump or plug into an outlet.

Mechanized rockem-sockem-robots fistfights, then they fold up into nice shiny automobiles with nary a scratch on the paintwork.

Flying craft with huge exhaust nozzles pointing rearward and no visible evidence of downward thrusters, cruising about the city at blimp speed.

Wrecked buildings keeling over, sure, with broken glass and junk falling, but no dust clouds like the World Trade Center - wouldn't be cinematic.

The movie was long and was a series of whiz-bang situations that depended on the following:

A plot that made liberal use of deus ex machina (god out of the machine - hey, maybe fitting for this movie)


There are a multitude of others... too numerous, I grow weary...

added:
Maybe there was a machine shop scene in there somewhere, but I don't remember.

The three movies have strayed far from the premise of original animated series. In the animated series, they did have doctors or medics and the Transformers were repaired, severe damage caused "death". The Transformers were never shown plugging or consuming anything, although they were alive, by machine standards. They did have an energy source that powered their machines and ships on their home planet.

Evan
07-05-2011, 06:40 PM
Gene,

About.com is perhaps even less reliable than Wikipedia as a reference. Perhaps that is why they are on the verge of going under.

While they say that insects have a "brain" they also say that it can easily live without it. :confused: They are using the term "brain" very loosely.

This is from another page and is much closer to the truth.


Other ganglia throughout its body control most of the overt behaviors we observe in insects. Thoracic ganglia control locomotion, and abdominal ganglia control reproduction and other functions of the abdomen. The subesophageal ganglion, just below the brain, controls the mouthparts, salivary glands, and movements of the neck.

The insect brain actually controls only a small subset of functions required for an insect to live. The stomodaeal nervous system and other ganglia can control most body functions independent of the brain.



http://insects.about.com/od/morphology/f/Do-Insects-Have-Brains.htm

Weston Bye
07-05-2011, 07:47 PM
Sounds like some (sub?)human males, who do their thinking with another part of their anatomy.:)

Evan
07-05-2011, 07:56 PM
Heh. Men are equipped with both a brain and a penis but only enough blood to run one at a time.

loose nut
07-05-2011, 08:51 PM
Whats so important about having a brain anyway. Most of the lower functions are taken care of in the stem and upper spinal column and frankly I know plenty of people that seem to be operating in a mindless state anyway.

sasquatch
07-05-2011, 08:57 PM
Re: Operating in a mindless state::

Is that the same as"Three bricks shy of a load,,, or,,, His elevator doesn't go all the way to the top?:D

boslab
07-05-2011, 09:17 PM
I sure am learning a lot about entemology on a thread about UFO's on a machining and workshop site! so funny really, what an esoteric bunch of misfits we are turning out to be. Mr Buckenheimer would be proud of us!
Did you see the vid of the ant in a microwave avoiding getting cooked! smart little bugger even if there is not a 'brain' in the conventional sense.
Perhaps given the biomas of insects on the planet we should be glad of the limitations on the buggers thinking deparment!
mark

Mcostello
07-05-2011, 10:15 PM
Granted we have enough blood to run one thing at a time-- How is it that High Blood Pressure does not make everything work "bigger and faster?"

Evan
07-05-2011, 10:23 PM
High blood pressure is caused by obstructions to blood flow.

loose nut
07-05-2011, 10:44 PM
[QUOTE=boslab]I sure am learning a lot about entemology on a thread about UFO's on a machining and workshop site! so funny really, what an esoteric bunch of misfits we are turning out to be. Mr Buckenheimer would be proud of us!
/[QUOTE]


The proper term is NERDS.

Alistair Hosie
07-06-2011, 07:42 AM
Evan sounds like your wrong! insects do have a brain a ganglia and neurons etc so it does seem like you stunned the little bugger . Alistair

sasquatch
07-06-2011, 09:23 AM
Re: And only stunned the little bugger:,,,


AND left the poor little thing to suffer!!!:rolleyes:

vpt
07-06-2011, 09:33 AM
The three movies have strayed far from the premise of original animated series. In the animated series, they did have doctors or medics and the Transformers were repaired, severe damage caused "death". The Transformers were never shown plugging or consuming anything, although they were alive, by machine standards. They did have an energy source that powered their machines and ships on their home planet.


And they would find these energy cubes just laying around.

Evan
07-06-2011, 09:36 AM
Evan sounds like your wrong! insects do have a brain a ganglia and neurons etc so it does seem like you stunned the little bugger .

I did NOT say they don't have a nervous system, I said it is distributed, which it is. The "brain" isn't a brain at all, it is just another group of largely optional ganglia.

Would you care to explain what "stunned" means in scientific terms?

Rosco-P
07-06-2011, 10:21 AM
And they would find these energy cubes just laying around.

No, they produced Energon (cubes) by some type of collection/refining process, which was never shown in any detail. Briefly seen in the animated Transformers movie.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energon_cube

Perhaps it will be explained in a future episode of "How it's Made".

lazlo
07-06-2011, 11:20 AM
No, they produced Energon (cubes) by some type of collection/refining process, which was never shown in any detail. Briefly seen in the animated Transformers movie.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energon_cube

Jeez, all this drama over kids toys Hasbro made in the 80's :)

My Son is really into Thomas the Train. Someone will have to write a comic book explaining how the trains got faces :D

lynnl
07-06-2011, 11:55 AM
My Son is really into Thomas the Train. Someone will have to write a comic book explaining how the trains got faces :D

They ran over little kids who were playing on the RR tracks, and had not cleaned their rooms. :)
The trains then sported the faces of the kids who'd gotten run over.

Alistair Hosie
07-06-2011, 02:21 PM
Stunned is some neural activity and blood being reduced /stopped temporarily to the brain.Which causes neurological motor movements being disrupted and delayed temporarily till function improves. Maybe I meant this more than stunned but I don't accept thaat they have no brain activity neurological activity or ganglions neurons synapses etc.The only animal in existance with these trates is british and American politicians:D Alistair seriously I misfiring of neurons at the synapse etc is what I mean.I studied these things including human biology and celular biology German science chemistry maths/(read statistics) used widely in psychology etc as part of a BSc degree in psychology although it was many years agowhaen I was thirty something, I still remember the basics of neurological synaptic function chemicals neurotransmitters and uptake reuptake etc.And was amazed when you said insects don't have abrain I am just trying to establish what you mean in reality.I kind of half get wht your saying but don't agree wholly with your statements re brain presence in insects.

lazlo
07-06-2011, 02:42 PM
The only animal in existance with these trates is british and American politicians :D

Dunno Alistair, I think Berlusconi has proven that politicians are the same all over: they take a political stand on family values while dallying with underage prostitutes.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_C-7IX8a74lg/S6xfrUkpvyI/AAAAAAAAOb8/9buSTjm6O9k/s1600/1stum+politician+..lobbyist.jpg

Alistair Hosie
07-06-2011, 02:49 PM
As usual Lazlo You are correct brother thier all the same world over.Filth corruption and furthe r furnishing their own nest. I figure the chance to make yourself even more rich is too much for them to walk away from. Greed pure greed.Alistair

Evan
07-06-2011, 02:49 PM
I don't accept thaat they have no brain activity neurological activity or ganglions neurons synapses etc


Nobody proposed that. I said they don't have a brain. I didn't say they don't have a nervous system. An ant has distributed control of its bodily functions that don't depend on a brain at all. What they have in place of a brain is three ganglia which are far more primitive than what is normally considered a brain. It is thought that the primary purpose of those neurons is to provide navigation, not to regulate body functions and activity.


I still remember the basics of neurological synaptic function chemicals neurotransmitters and uptake reuptake etc

So do I but that field has changed dramatically in the last ten years. There is far more going on in a single synapse than anybody guessed back then. Just to simulate a single synapse would take a fairly powerful CPU with its own program. There are thousands of variables required to simulate a synapse and each variable will require high resolution to accurately encode what it represents.

Back to my original point, the ability to reprogram on the fly was and is not just my hypothesis. It is well documented in lower animals such as insects and ants in particular are a good example of this ability.


Stunned is some neural activity and blood being reduced /stopped temporarily to the brain

Insects don't have blood and they don't distribute oxygen throughout the body. Oxygen is absorbed through pores in the carapace all over the body and diffuses to the nearby cells that require it. It is this that places strict limitations on the size of insects. In previous epochs when the oxygen in the atmosphere was much higher insects were able to grow to much larger sizes.

Alistair Hosie
07-06-2011, 03:37 PM
Evan I am not making fun of your point as you say maybe things have moved on since my degree days and maybe my understaning is old hat.I just find the suggestion of no brain interesting thats all I am with you just trying to learn what you are meaning by no brain and operation on neurological ganglia,I take my hat off to your studies and please feel free to comment further as I find this interesting enough to watch with great interest .Do you understand the concept of the sodium potassium pump and how does this play part in nuero transmission of insects. (please excuse typing )there must be a synapse or at least some interuption in neuro transmission surely although maybe/perhaps without a brain this isn't necessary, and I don't suggest you said anything you didn't say just throwing you a few suggestions to help me better understand as obviously I never studied insects at that level or at all actually also you said

It is thought that the primary purpose of those neurons is to provide navigation, not to regulate body functions and activity.

I ask what then about peripheral nerves ?


Alistair

Evan
07-06-2011, 04:29 PM
Allistair, insects DO have a nervous system. Small ganglia are distributed throughout the body to control various functions nearby. They are all connected together in a neural network. Their neural system operates in the same manner as any other neural system but it isn't as organized or complex as it is in mammals.

Even planaria have a simple neural network and are even trainable as are leeches. In particular, the entire neural network of a leech has been completely mapped so that it can be accurately simulated by a computer. That is about how far we are right now in this game.

Alistair Hosie
07-06-2011, 05:37 PM
Evan we also studied the earliest most simple form of life pro caryotic life single cell amoeba (blue green algae and similar life now they have very little to go on no vertebra no nervous system of couse no heart lungs kidneys etc:D have you ever come across pro caryotes.Alistair