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View Full Version : OK to lie down MIG gas bottle?



noah katz
06-29-2011, 04:16 PM
Right now I have my MIG welder under my work table with the CO2/Ar bottle lying horizontally on top of it.

I'd like to make a cart that puts the welder on top and the bottle underneath, still horizontal, so it will still fit under the table.

I'd chain the bottle to the cart, and the cart to the table, which is all steel and weighs over 600 lb.

Anything wrong with this?

Evan
06-29-2011, 04:18 PM
Sure, no problem.

Rosco-P
06-29-2011, 04:27 PM
No problem with gas withdrawal. Minor safety issue should the gas valve ever become sheared off (bottle becomes a projectile), but as proved on Mythbusters, very difficult to accomplish in real life.

noah katz
06-29-2011, 04:31 PM
Good, thanks.

Any reason to chain it to the table?

I expected I might get some responses about it becoming a projectile if the valve got knocked off somehow, which is hard to imagine.

[edit] hmm, didn't seem like it took 4 min to type that :)

Arthur.Marks
06-29-2011, 04:31 PM
Interesting question for the simple fact that (all?) safety regulations list that cylinders be stored vertically. The fact remains, though, that there is no inherent danger to a horizontal CO2/Ar container. That specific danger is related to gases such as Acetylene which are dissolved in another substance (acetone, in the case of Acetylene). The one point I would stress is to not mount the valve outside of the edge of the cart. That is the point of least strength and the area of greatest danger on a cylinder. If you drop something from the table, make sure it will not damage the valve. That would be my foremost concern with a horizontal, below bench-level cylinder.

Arthur.Marks
06-29-2011, 04:32 PM
Why NOT secure it solidly to the table? :confused: Do you really want it rolling off somewhere? ...even if that sounds horribly unlikely (Murphy's Law)
[EDIT] Re-reading your posts, I don't see any reason to chain it to both the cart and the table. The cart sounds safe enough to me.

noah katz
06-29-2011, 04:42 PM
Yes, the valve would be inset and protected from falling objects by the welder, or if that makes it too hard to turn the handle, I'll cover it with a removable protection plate.

Thanks for the helpful info to all.

radkins
06-29-2011, 04:56 PM
75/25 sure, BUT NOT CO2! laying a CO2 bottle on it's side will cause the regulator to freeze. Many times in the past I have inverted CO2 bottles to freeze bushings and pins.

EDIT: A quick Google search also finds many warnings not to lay CO2 bottles on their sides, check the warning at the bottom of this page.

www.ehow.com/how_2248153_use-co2-tank-systems.html

noah katz
06-29-2011, 05:51 PM
I'm pretty sure it's 75/25, but I'll check, thanks

JoeLee
06-29-2011, 10:13 PM
If your dead set on leaving that bottle in the horizontal position on your cart then I would just make heavy gage (11 ga. or so) sheet metal shroud to partially enclose the valve and flow meter top and back side. You could design it to clamp around the bottle neck for easy removal when it comes time to replace the cylinder.

JL.................

JoeLee
06-29-2011, 10:15 PM
75/25 sure, BUT NOT CO2! laying a CO2 bottle on it's side will cause the regulator to freeze. Many times in the past I have inverted CO2 bottles to freeze bushings and pins.

EDIT: A quick Google search also finds many warnings not to lay CO2 bottles on their sides, check the warning at the bottom of this page.

www.ehow.com/how_2248153_use-co2-tank-systems.html (http://www.ehow.com/how_2248153_use-co2-tank-systems.html)

I don't think freezing would be a problem with the intermittent weld time and low volume of gas being used.

JL................

BigMike782
06-29-2011, 10:44 PM
"I don't think freezing would be a problem with the intermittent weld time and low volume of gas being used."
With the cylinder on it's side you will very likely(based on the amount of product in the cylinder) draw liquid and can very easily freeze the regulator.

Your 75/25 will be just fine on it's side.
As stated the gases you want to remain up right are acetylene,propane and CO2(unless you WANT liquid withdrawal).

radkins
06-29-2011, 11:54 PM
I don't think freezing would be a problem with the intermittent weld time and low volume of gas being used.

JL................



Yes it will freeze and so will the hose, lay one on it's side and try it. I have done this many times (without the regulator) when making dry ice to freeze bushings/bearings and even at a low rate when the liquid expands it will freeze. The procedure we used was quite crude but effective, just run a hose from the bottle to a box containing the part to be chilled and pack rags around it then tilt the bottle so the valve is low and crack it open slightly. I know the flow rate when welding is very small in comparison but I have even seen the CO2 regulator freeze with the tank upright if the flow rate is set high (usually in an attempt to compensate for drafts), and it does not have to be very much at all over normal settings. Even at normal draw rates if the tank is horizontal freezing will occur unless the tank is nearly empty.

JoeLee
06-30-2011, 12:18 AM
Yes it will freeze and so will the hose, lay one on it's side and try it. I have done this many times (without the regulator) when making dry ice to freeze bushings/bearings and even at a low rate when the liquid expands it will freeze. The procedure we used was quite crude but effective, just run a hose from the bottle to a box containing the part to be chilled and pack rags around it then tilt the bottle so the valve is low and crack it open slightly. I know the flow rate when welding is very small in comparison but I have even seen the CO2 regulator freeze with the tank upright if the flow rate is set high (usually in an attempt to compensate for drafts), and it does not have to be very much at all over normal settings. Even at normal draw rates if the tank is horizontal freezing will occur unless the tank is nearly empty.

Intresting.......... I've never put a bottle on it's side other than when transporting it. I guess your first hand experience tells it all. I didn't think being a 75 / 25 mix and given the low CFM flow rate that it would freeze. I'll keep this in mind next time I want to chill some parts or a beer.

JL....................

whitis
06-30-2011, 01:42 AM
If stored horizontally, you need to shield the valve against accidents that will shear it off. Drop something heavy off the bench onto the valve, rocket. Bump into it with a forklift, rocket. Swing the cart into a bench, rocket. etc. It needs to be in a cage that protects against impacts from all 5 sides (all sides except the bottle side).

One drawback of a horizontal cylinder is the trajectory of a launched valve, and the cylinder itself, in the event of a fire induced valve launch has more chance of doing damage.
Mythbusters may have had some trouble shearing the valve at first, but Murphy is very creative and their successful shearing attempt took very little. They did rocket a cylinder at 40mph entirely through a cinderblock wall and partly through the wall behind it, in spite of friction against the concrete floor from a non-airborne trajectory:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejEJGNLTo84
Verdict: "totally and spectacularly confirmed".
And that was just air. A cylinder containing liquid potentially has much more reaction mass.

Here is one missile incident in which a discarded cylinder crashed through the roof and ceiling of a house 600-700 feet away (and that might have been an "empty" cylinder):
http://www.wickedlocal.com/bridgewater/topstories/x1594959265/Junkyard-explosion-launches-50-pound-metal-cylinder-600-feet-through-Bridgewater-roof#axzz1QjEsoakm
A non-contemporaneous report of a cylinder which smashed someones face (fatally) before flying a quarter mile:
http://www.toolboxtopics.com/Construction/Generic/Handling%20Gas%20Cylinders.htm

I have heard of an incident where a cylinder punched through a rolled up door and the wall behind, travelled 1/4 mile, then buried itself deep in the ground, though I don't have an actual accident report.

Also, the conditions which can cause missile accidents are also similar to the conditions which cause non-missile accidents like explosions.

Apparently, a number of accidents occur with oxygen bottles and MRI machines (huge magnets). These accidents have caused up to $250,000 worth of damage but fortunately the cylinder is contained by the magnet.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imrser.org%2FPDF%2FJMRI.2004. Colletti.pdf&rct=j&q=gas%20cylinder%20accident%20missile%20OR%20proje ctile&ei=D_ILToL-M4m30AHf5sWZDg&usg=AFQjCNFMignTY1atI-N7F9zCV04r0ojwqw&cad=rja
http://www.ajronline.org/cgi/content/full/177/1/27

The cylinder must be protected against rolling or sliding off the cart. Apparently one of the causes of the MRI accidents is oxygen bottles stored on crash carts.

boslab
06-30-2011, 02:24 AM
75/25 sure, BUT NOT CO2! laying a CO2 bottle on it's side will cause the regulator to freeze. Many times in the past I have inverted CO2 bottles to freeze bushings and pins.

EDIT: A quick Google search also finds many warnings not to lay CO2 bottles on their sides, check the warning at the bottom of this page.

www.ehow.com/how_2248153_use-co2-tank-systems.html
+1 for that, i managed to freeze a co2 quite nicely too, propane again will issue LPG on its side, the ones designed for just that over here have an arrow on the shoulder to show up for the dip tube to work correctly [fork truck cylynders.
i would feel happier if it was say inclined on a rack about 45 degrees maybee, with low oftake flows it should be ok but its still not not a recomended practice [unless its a special liquid offtake cylynder]
how about useing a manifold of small cylynders vertically, say 3 of the 2' tall ones?
mark

jugs
06-30-2011, 02:58 AM
Sure, no problem.


Bollocks.


Lots of problems.



Evan, please STOP giving advice on subjects you know nothing about, particularly when someone maybe injured.


There are a few specially designed tanks for horizontal use but few & far between.

Std workshop bottles should be stored & used vertically & chained securely to a wall/vertical column/welding cart.

Consult the safety data sheet from your gas suppler (not the opinion of the spotty youth serving you).


Cylinder Use:

Store cylinders in a well-protected, dry and well-ventilated area ensuring they do not block entry or exit routes and are protected from physical damage from striking or falling objects and from any potential tampering.
Cylinders should also be stored out of direct sunlight.
Use cylinders in the order in which they were received, i.e. first in - first out.
Ensure the valve seat and regulator thread/seat are free from any foreign matter including dirt, oil or grease. Remove any foreign matter by wiping with a clean, dry cloth, by using compressed air or by briefly opening and closing the valve (known as "snifting" or "cracking"). When using compressed air or 'snifting', wear eye and ear protection and always ensure that you point the cylinder valve or air blowgun away from yourself and others.
Fit the regulator then open the cylinder valve slowly at armís length. Check for leaks using soapy water.
Always store cylinders in an upright position and secure with a chain or strap above the centre of the body.
If a cylinder key is required to open a cylinder, always leave it in place to make it easier to close the valve after use or in an emergency. Always use the correct key, they cost no more than a few pounds at most.
Always close the cylinder valve after use.
Always close the valve when the cylinder is empty to prevent air or moisture from entering the cylinder.http://www.hse.gov.uk/cdg/pdf/safusgc.pdf

http://www.bcga.co.uk/preview/publications/carriage.pdf

While you may "get away with it", should an accident happen no insurance will pay out, so you or your estate could be facing a huge claim for damages as well as prosecution........& maybe a funeral.

john
:)

Jaakko Fagerlund
06-30-2011, 04:06 AM
Always store cylinders in an upright position and secure with a chain or strap above the centre of the body.



Bollocks.

If you know anything about gases, you would know what can be and can't be done.

BigMike782
06-30-2011, 07:56 AM
"I didn't think being a 75 / 25 mix and given the low CFM flow rate that it would freeze."
75/25 will not be an issue only straight CO2.

jugs
06-30-2011, 08:30 AM
If you know anything about gases, you would know what can be and can't be done.


:confused: :confused: :confused:

The original question was asked by someone who obviously doesn't know about gas bottles, asking for advice.

It was immediately answered by Evan who then demonstrated his lack of knowledge on the subject (yet again), saying
"Sure, no problem."
another example of 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing'.

There are potentially dangerous problems, as many subsequent posts show, Evan is spreading misinformation (again) hence my response of Bollocks.

I've a sneaking suspicion that the gas suppliers know more about gas bottle storage than most on here, (particularly our resident "ex spurt"), so they are the ones to consult.

Even if the neck is adequately protected on a horizontal bottle, what happens when someone ends up with a CO≤ replacement in a few yrs time.??


NOAH,
for more info on gas storage & MIG welding try this excellent site >

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/index.php

john
:)

radkins
06-30-2011, 08:36 AM
Intresting........ I didn't think being a 75 / 25 mix and given the low CFM flow rate that it would freeze. I'll keep this in mind next time I want to chill some parts or a beer.JL....................



75/25 will not freeze but CO2 will, 75/25 (C25) still should be used upright for safety reasons however it will function just fine laying on it's side.

Jaakko Fagerlund
06-30-2011, 09:17 AM
jugs, you quoted some safety instructions that say "always", which is not necessary so it is not always true. You are referring to general rules that yes, are easy to remember, but won't hold all the truth.

boslab
06-30-2011, 10:32 AM
i would suppose that one of the reasons for not wanting to chill the bottle would be the famous old ductile brittle transition, i could quite easily envisage a scenario where a 300 bar bottle at say -20 at the neck could fracture aka catastrophic failure by brittle mode fracture, i would also guess that if one was unlucky enough to be in the vicinity of the gas bottle you would probably get minced, this seems like a sensible argument for not freezing the thing but its purely conjecture as i dont know the steel very well, i work on strip and sheet mainlyfor pressings like car bodies, i'm not aware of supplying the gas container industry, till i know better i'll keep mine vertical chained to the wall in the gas cage outside my shop, i would not have any insurance if i kept them inside, also i have to keep them a certain distance from my house, i cant remember how far but my shop is 300 feet from the back of my house in a field.
mark

radkins
06-30-2011, 12:03 PM
i would suppose that one of the reasons for not wanting to chill the bottle would be the famous old ductile brittle transition, i could quite easily envisage a scenario where a 300 bar bottle at say -20 at the neck could fracture aka catastrophic failure by brittle mode fracture, i would also guess that if one was unlucky enough to be in the vicinity of the gas bottle you would probably get minced, this seems like a sensible argument for not freezing the thing but its purely conjecture as i dont know the steel very well, i work on strip and sheet mainlyfor pressings like car bodies, i'm not aware of supplying the gas container industry, till i know better i'll keep mine vertical chained to the wall in the gas cage outside my shop, i would not have any insurance if i kept them inside, also i have to keep them a certain distance from my house, i cant remember how far but my shop is 300 feet from the back of my house in a field.
mark



Not a problem at all with the high pressure 75/25 bottles since they do not freeze and the much lower pressure in a CO2 bottle should present no problem either even if it did chill, besides it's the regulator/hoses that freeze not the bottle.

JoeLee
06-30-2011, 01:05 PM
75/25 will not freeze but CO2 will, 75/25 (C25) still should be used upright for safety reasons however it will function just fine laying on it's side.

I have a couple cyl. of 88% argon, 3% Oxy. and 9% CO2. I can't see 9% freezing up the valve.

JL.................

noah katz
06-30-2011, 04:11 PM
Didn't mean to do a hit-and-run but I decided to take the easy way out and just buy a cart that puts the bottle at the standing up.

If anyone's interested: http://www.amazon.com/ATD-Tools-7041-Welding-Cart/dp/B003GZB45Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1309464445&sr=8-1

It took awhile to find one that will fit in the 11" wide space I have.

The reason I wanted it lying down was so I could just reach down and open the valve, as I do most all welding right there.

But I don't weld very often and I can pull the cart out to turn the valve on and off a lot of times before it would equal the time spent making a cart, not to mention that I'd probably spend close to what it cost on materials.

lazlo
06-30-2011, 04:20 PM
Didn't mean to do a hit-and-run but I decided to take the easy way out and just buy a cart that puts the bottle at the standing up.

If anyone's interested: http://www.amazon.com/ATD-Tools-7041-Welding-Cart/dp/B003GZB45Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1309464445&sr=8-1.

Another option: most welding shops sell a single- or double tank holding bracket with the hemisphere cutout, neoprene inserts for the tanks, and a chain to hold the tank. They're made to incorporate into your own welding cart, bottle rack, etc.

Seastar
06-30-2011, 04:39 PM
I would lay one down if the neck/valve were protected. I think Evan is right. It's no problem.
Most of those quoted sites are "cover your arse" type instructions John.
I have been laying them down in my welding trailer for years, makes them easier to secure.
On the other hand, in order to save space in my home shop I bought one of these:
http://www.harborfreight.com/welding-cart-90305.html
Good buy and works good.
Bill

lazlo
06-30-2011, 06:06 PM
Most of those quoted sites are "cover your arse" type instructions John.
I have been laying them down in my welding trailer for years, makes them easier to secure.

Lot of guys have been running their angle grinders and pedestal grinders for years without the guards. It's fine most of the time.

lazlo
06-30-2011, 07:03 PM
I have a couple cyl. of 88% argon, 3% Oxy. and 9% CO2. I can't see 9% freezing up the valve.

How do you like that Stargon Tri-mix gas? Is it worth the extra $$$?

As far as I can tell from the brochure, the big selling point is low spatter?

JoeLee
06-30-2011, 11:07 PM
How do you like that Stargon Tri-mix gas? Is it worth the extra $$$?

As far as I can tell from the brochure, the big selling point is low spatter?

To be honest with you I really can't tell any difference between that and the 75/25. The mix I have is mostly formulated for mig welding stainless given the fact that it has a lower percentage of CO2. ( I guess you don't want to be putting carbon in the weld) But I don't mig stainless, I TIG it. They do have other mixes with odd percentages of O2 and CO2 but I think they were designed for spray welding and robotic TIG and stuff that us normal HSM'ers don't do.

JL..................

jugs
07-01-2011, 02:34 AM
Lot of guys have been running their angle grinders and pedestal grinders for years without the guards. It's fine most of the time.


http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-shocked016.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php) Well thats a mad bit of advise lazlo,

Just like jumping from 15,000' without a parachute,
or -running across the road without looking,
or -playing Russian Roulette....

or -swimming with hungry sharks,http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-violent084.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)....



..It's fine for most of the time. :eek:


john
:)

radkins
07-01-2011, 06:10 AM
Jugs, I think maybe he intended a bit of sarcasm there.

lazlo
07-01-2011, 09:51 AM
Jugs, I think maybe he intended a bit of sarcasm there.

Is it possible for wit to be too dry for Wales? :D

My point was that just because you've always done something that way, doesn't mean it's safe.

noah katz
07-01-2011, 02:28 PM
Just like jumping from 15,000' without a parachute, ...

Reminds of that line from a song in Crazy Heart:

Fallin' is like flyin'...for awhile