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RB211
06-30-2011, 02:13 AM
Maybe it is the area I am living in(San Francisco), but everyone has a mac... I try to explain to them that their Mac is nothing more than an over priced PC that happens to run a nice operating system.
Never mind that if you were to compare the prices of a PC to a Mac, you would find that the PC usually has twice the cores, twice the ram, twice the hard drive space, and the PC is almost always built to a standard build factor that you can fix yourself, for the same price.

Oh they chime in and say the Mac is far more efficient... ??? Really? Well how do you explain PC's being able to run the same computers games at a higher frame rate? Well... you do have a point...

My HP laptop that cost me 560$ runs Ubuntu linux flawlessly, and dual boots into win7 when I need to use certain programs... You can't buy a Mac for that price, cheapest one is a Mac Mini for 700$, and it comes with a whopping 2gb of ram?
Oh the murder you can get away with when you have a kool aid drinking cult following...

boslab
06-30-2011, 02:44 AM
Evans prolly the fountain of a sensible mac/ibm comparrison, we had a mac in work to operate a vision system as a trial, whils its architecture was better suited to handling the streaming camera imput the rest of it let it down, ie the processing ability, which was quite a suprise, we ended up with ibm clone pc dooing the job and eventually replaced those with an DEC alphavax running the ibm software through some kind of emulator type thing on VMS
i really dont know why DEC kit dosent start appearing in homes, its so well built, as was the mac but the mac dfid look cool.
I remember seeing a CRAY mcp once, we were thinking of buying one for fluid flow moddeling in submerged entry nozzles for continuous casting, i think i'd like one of those, especially when they told me it was cooled with synthetic blood! so vampy
Alas they arent built anymore since aquisition by mr gates [i think]
i do like apple design, i think thats the key, it does seem very 'european' if you know what i mean
Why is your handle a very good RR engine, RB211 , a beautiful bit of engineering in itself, i assume you must be from an aeronautical background?
all the best
mark

PeteF
06-30-2011, 03:39 AM
Is there a point to your thread? If you don't want to buy a Mac, don't buy one, I consider it highly unlikely somebody is currently holding a gun to your head and forcing you do do so!

fixerdave
06-30-2011, 03:44 AM
Macs are what your PC would look like if you worked for a big company with an IT department. Basically, they refuse to deliver completely junk HW. Next, they take out all the OS/App options and give you the one way to do things that they think is best. All the rest are either locked out or obscured so you don't muck things up by playing with them. Yeah, it's an over-simplification but that idea is why the Macs "just work."

For many people, this is exactly what they want and they are willing to pay for it. Then, there are people like me with a Mac Mini running Ubuntu Linux as a web server. Yeah, I gave OS-X a try... couldn't stand it. I felt like that old British spy-show called "The Prisoner." Everything was just peachy-keen, until you wanted to leave; then, a big ball would come down on you. Macs are like that, do what Steve wants you to do, keep paying, and everything is roses. Try to do something else and things turn sour very quickly. Thus, Macs are either a love or hate thing. There's not much in-between.

Besides that, Mac HW will always be more expensive because they only sell the OS-X package on said HW, so there's no competition. Steve is, after all, a smart guy. If you want the OS, you pay a premium for the HW.

But, yeah, Mac-Nazi fan-boys can get very irritating. Almost as much as evangelical Linux converts ;) If they really get to you, tell them they can run Linux on their HW and get all their options back, for free.

For my take, old but still gets Google hits:
if computer companies made cars (http://datadave.blogspot.com/2007/01/if-computer-companies-made-cars.html)

Forrest Addy
06-30-2011, 04:21 AM
For the last 10 years I've run a PC for most of admittedly pedestrian requirements. Back in the day Mac was far superior to the PC in handling graphics etc. That advantage has all but disappeared now.

My low end PC halts and or freezes several; times a day. My old Mac system I keep running for on app I can't do without crashes but no oftener than once every couple of months.

There are who rant against stuff they don't have to use; they perplex me. It's like anyone owning a PC or a Mac is an insult to them. You find the same brand of irrational intolerance in racists, religious radicals, single issue activists, and all over rant radio.

The rule I once learned: find the software that does what you want and install it on the platform that best runs it but I don't know it that is still pertinant.

I'm doing OK with my 16 year old Mac and 6 year old PC. I get done what I need to do and it doesn't cost me much to replace something if it dies.

Greg Q
06-30-2011, 04:54 AM
Why is your handle a very good RR engine, RB211 , a beautiful bit of engineering in itself, i assume you must be from an aeronautical background?
all the best
mark

Yeah, if you worship at the altar of needless complexity the RB-211 could be admired. Too bad it was made by a company that has become nothing more than a house of sharp practice and prevarication.

PeteF
06-30-2011, 05:10 AM
Yeah, if you worship at the altar of needless complexity the RB-211 could be admired.

What! You don't like hauling around an extra tonne per engine for no good reason?

Greg Q
06-30-2011, 05:24 AM
Call me crazy, but....

Anyway, triple spools have their place for medium haul. Just too bad they are made/serviced by you-know-who:cool:

I have a Leyland P76 here and a Conway. I'd like to get a bigger welder and marry those two up!

On edit, I wonder if R-R got those names from the family of an Alaskan governor?

Conway, Dart, Trent, Tyne, etc

DFMiller
06-30-2011, 08:05 AM
After owning one for a while you might have a different opinion!
Like Forrest says they seem to last. You do get what you pay for.
They also run Windoze well. And they have tech support that actually will answer question.
Dave :-)
8 Macs
3 PC's

J Tiers
06-30-2011, 08:46 AM
mac's have a deserved rep for just working, when totally clue-less folks use them. Business people, as in small business, being an example.

We had macs in the graphics dept at a prior employer. They worked well, and ran what we needed. But they were finally banished in disgrace.

The problem was that when they worked, they were great, but a Mac that didn't work right seemed to be impossible to fix. We had to find the one "Mac guru" in the area to fix them (a guy EVERYONE went to for Mac issues), but that finally became a hassle when our graphics folks had work to do, and "paperweights" on their desktops. We could not wait days for the "guru" to get there and fix it. Our IT folks were good, but supporting 5 macs and 200 PCs , they were trained for PCs, and not Macs.

Any turkey can fix a PC reasonably well. And if the AV is kept up-to-date, they rarely have problems.

I hear there is finally a very bad Mac virus, so that immunuty is history.

Rosco-P
06-30-2011, 09:07 AM
You wouldn't have the Windowze GUI today if Bill Gates didn't have the Mac OS to rip off.

Mcgyver
06-30-2011, 09:15 AM
for a desktop, for me, I can't see an advantage to Mac, I've always built my own and go much more high end than the average consumer. But i'm really tempted for a laptop where you can't build your own and have to accept what someones come up with

My four kids have them, they're tough, light, good battery life and just plain work. Selection is another big advantage; every time you buy a computer having to figure out all the BS trade lingo is such a pita; good better best has its appeal

All the other laptops i've bought over the years, 2 Toshiba's (tectra, high end), HP and some less brands.... all judged as crap by yours truly. They don't last, the don't work and are filled with frustration. Meanwhile the 4 Mac books keep in trucking, two at university two here and none of the four is particularly careful with them, after all they didn't pay for them. I end up sitting in a lot of hockey rinks and soccer pitches and you have to be there an hour before game time - its the ipad or borrowed kids laptops that lets me make good use of the hour..... they are the best mobiles imo

Rustybolt
06-30-2011, 09:25 AM
Back when my wife was technical writing for a living Macs were the standard for desktop publishing. All the printing outfits used them.
I think she said that a mac handled big files better, meaning graphics and photos.

gwilson
06-30-2011, 09:35 AM
I am NO computer whiz. My wife is,though. We have Macs because she does lots of graphic work. She says Macs don't get those viruses that plague everyone,either. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Rosco-P
06-30-2011, 09:54 AM
A Mac and FinalCut are the defacto standard for video editing (if you don't have the bucks for an Avid system).

madwilliamflint
06-30-2011, 09:56 AM
Rather a lot of the developers I know swear by it, knowing full well that it's the OS that makes it what it is.

I keep trying. Every few laptop iterations I buy a mac.

The application interoperability seems higher and I like the more homogenous aesthetic. I just can't get used to the finger feel of it. It makes me feel like I'm wearing a necktie on a Saturday morning.

Thruthefence
06-30-2011, 10:01 AM
"Conway, Dart, Trent, Tyne, etc"

Have they re named the little Allison 250?

Maybe the "drainage ditch"?

boslab
06-30-2011, 10:20 AM
"Conway, Dart, Trent, Tyne, etc"

Have they re named the little Allison 250?

Maybe the "drainage ditch"?
if you dont like the rolls royce engine thats ok, but your probably going to fly with an areoplane fitted with them sooner or later, i just hope they work, was the extra 1000kg of weight a giant maths co-processor like all the intel chips of years ago, maybee it was an engine management system.
i think of it like an American sportscar, heavy and unsophisticated but has the grunt to do the job without blowing up, we can all be thankful for that.
anyway back to pc's, Macs are just fashionable theres the end of it, they do have the design edge as far as packaging is concerned however its horses for courses, each has a place i think.
mark

Evan
06-30-2011, 11:02 AM
You wouldn't have the Windowze GUI today if Bill Gates didn't have the Mac OS to rip off

Where would Apple be today if they didn't have the Xerox GUI to rip off?

The Xerox Star, circa 1980: note the optical mouse.

http://ixian.ca/pics8/xstar.jpg

Rosco-P
06-30-2011, 11:34 AM
Where would Apple be today if they didn't have the Xerox GUI to rip off?

The Xerox Star, circa 1980: note the optical mouse.

http://ixian.ca/pics8/xstar.jpg

Okay, okay, you got me.

Yes, Xerox PARC developed a rudamentary GUI, but Apple really put a shine to it.

Dr Stan
06-30-2011, 11:44 AM
My wife, an artist, moaned & groaned wanting a Mac for years. I finally relented and bought her one a couple of years ago. User friendly, NOT! Hate the damn thing. I'd just as soon shoot it with my 12 ga as look at it.

baldysm
06-30-2011, 11:47 AM
I used to be an IT guy, certified up the wazoo with Microsoft.

Comparing PC to Mac is like comparing chickens to pigs. They both are used to do the same thing, but they do it in very different ways.

Windows is designed to use a vast array of hardware. That versatility comes at a cost - Windows is not as stable nor as predictable as Mac.

Mac runs on a very specific set of hardware, and lots of time can be spent on getting the drivers just right, since there is a limited number of drivers to be written. Stable and predictable, but not as versatile.

When you log into Windows, you are typically admin (on home systems). Any virus that you get, surprise surprise, has admin rights to the system and can do anything you can do, including really screw up your system.

With Mac, you log in as a user, not as a admin. So any virus you get is limited to what you can do as a user, which is not much. Hence, viruses are pretty ineffective in a Mac system.

Both companies have and will continue to use ideas from other companies. That being said, Microsoft has a well deserved reputation as being well behind Apple in creativity and pushing the envelope. Usually you can do something in a Mac before you can do it in a PC, not often the other way around.

I use an Imac running Windows (most of the time) for 2 reasons and 2 reasons only... CAD/CAM and games, primarily CAD/CAM. I play Eve, which has a Mac client. As soon as Rhino comes out with something that is not a beta for Mac, I suspect that I'll be in Mac most of the time. For me, I like the not having a virus problem, not having a stupid registry, and the stability of a Mac. For others, a PC is a better option.

As far as the Mac vs PC battle, it's just like the battle between democrats and republicans. Both people arguing points they view as superior and neither one willing to listen to the other and concede they have valid points as well.

If you like a Mac, use it. If you like a PC, use it. If you try to convince me that I am wrong for liking what I use, I'll just think you an idiot.

Evan
06-30-2011, 11:57 AM
Yes, Xerox PARC developed a rudamentary GUI, but Apple really put a shine to it.



I have used the Star as I worked for Xerox during that period. The Gui was not rudimentary in the least. The OS was full multitasking and Xerox used the systems internally up until the late 80s. The same system was used by the Pentagon for a number of years and it was also used at the Xerox research centres in Rochester and Mississauga.

Allan Kay walked off with the entire concept as he used to work at PARC. It was first implemented by Apple on the Apple Lisa which was a resounding failure due to abysmal performance. It was then ported to the original Mac with monochrome screen. The first Mac OS was terrible. I decided not to bother with it at all when I sat down to one and crashed it hard within 60 seconds.

Evan
06-30-2011, 12:04 PM
Windows is designed to use a vast array of hardware....

More to the point, Windows was designed to run on the IBM PC. In a very uncharacteristic move IBM made the PC "open source" with all design features documented and made public. This allowed numerous third party vendors to design components for the PC to extend the capability of the systems. The Windows operating system in all of its incarnations has had to deal with diversity ever since. Microsoft didn't make the decision to support a wide variety of hardware, it was forced on them by the design of the IBM PC.

precisionmetal
06-30-2011, 12:17 PM
As a fairly recent Mac convert (<2 years ago), I may be able to add a few things.

I'll preface by saying I've been heavily into PCs since the late 80's, and build most of my own over the years. Lots of bang for the buck, and lots of versatility in mixing/matching hardware.

The Mac though.... it just works. To the users who feel the Mac OS locks you out of the deeper and more "nut and bolts" of the OS, they probably just haven't looked deep enough. As a matter of fact, I feel OS X allows considerably more tweaking and control than any Windows OS I ever worked with (and I've used them all). It's all available... it's just one layer below the surface (and for good reason -- 99% of the users don't need to go there).

I have about half a dozen Macs now, and unlike a PC, I can effortlessly do, or connect to, any other computer. Win, Unix, Mac.... doesn't matter. I can read, write and format to any drive using any file system. It all works. I run virtual machines in order to play with Windows apps, and they all run flawlessly.

As mentioned by others, the bundled and/or Apple apps all work together much more seamlessly than anything on a Windows machine. The biggest hurdle to transitioning from a Windows box to a Mac is to "stop trying too hard". I don't know how many times I messed with my Mac when I first got it trying to accomplish something... something I had figured out on my Windows machine that had a sequence of defined steps. Inevitably, the "issue" stems from "thinking too much", and you quickly realize that if you just do what is simple (e.g. just drag that icon and drop it onto what you want to do), it just works.

Bottom line: if you like PCs and you like the way they work, then that's terrific. You got lots of hardware for the money, and generally speaking computers are just tools to do a job anyways... so if it works for you, that's awesome.

For me, the Mac has been the best transition I ever made. I get more done, faster and easier, and can run ANY software for any operating system with no issues. My Macs only get rebooted when they download a software update, and run 100% glitch free from months between those updates. No viruses, no issues, rock solid performance.

Am I a Mac flagwaver? Yea... probably. The reason for me is a simple one though -- I tend to help all my friends with their computers, and doing so if they're on a Mac is much, much simpler for me.

fwiw....

randyjaco
06-30-2011, 12:24 PM
My wife is an artist too and an Apple self proclaimed evangelist. Apple is like a religion. They proselytize. To be in the group you cannot allow bad Apple thoughts to occur and if someone voices one, it is every members' duty to stamp out the bad thought. My wife has constant difficulties with her Mac, Iphone, etc. But if I make a snide comment about that my PC or Blackberry is working fine, I can expect a miserable evening.

I lived in the surrounds of Silicon Valley for 10 years. If you think that Mac users are bad, you ought to be around Apple employees or contractors.

Lets face it Apple is now worth more than Intel and Microsoft put together, so they must be doing something right. They are more innovative in ways that appeal to THEIR customers. Listen to Mac-ites squeal with delight when they get their machines to fart , belch or emit some other sound. Their industrial design is light years beyond the competition. Basically they don't look at their products as commodities to be sold to the lowest bidder.

Personally I am starting to favor the new Google products. Open source, that let YOU do what you want with them. Go Google, kill off both of the Evil Empires 8^)

Randy

lazlo
06-30-2011, 01:13 PM
Comparing PC to Mac is like comparing chickens to pigs. They both are used to do the same thing, but they do it in very different ways.

Windows is designed to use a vast array of hardware. That versatility comes at a cost - Windows is not as stable nor as predictable as Mac.

Mac runs on a very specific set of hardware, and lots of time can be spent on getting the drivers just right, since there is a limited number of drivers to be written. Stable and predictable, but not as versatile.

Excellent summary. I would add: Mac has a gorgeous user interface. Microsoft keeps trying to copy it, but Aeroglass is clumsy and garish in comparison.

The downside to the Mac culture (which it really is), is that it's a closed, niche system. You have to do everything the way Steve Job's intended.


When you log into Windows, you are typically admin (on home systems). Any virus that you get, surprise surprise, has admin rights to the system and can do anything you can do, including really screw up your system.

With Mac, you log in as a user, not as a admin. So any virus you get is limited to what you can do as a user, which is not much.

You're not supposed to log into Windows as Admin. You're supposed to set up the machine as admin, and log in as a user. That's the way I have all my machines configured.

winchman
06-30-2011, 01:20 PM
I tried a Mac two years ago for a week, and sent it back. I got a much nicer Dell for less money, and it's doing fine for me.

I don't get it either.

lazlo
06-30-2011, 01:24 PM
My wife is an artist too and an Apple self proclaimed evangelist. Apple is like a religion. They proselytize. To be in the group you cannot allow bad Apple thoughts to occur and if someone voices one, it is every members' duty to stamp out the bad thought. My wife has constant difficulties with her Mac, Iphone, etc. But if I make a snide comment about that my PC or Blackberry is working fine, I can expect a miserable evening.

Also very true! PC and Linux people just use their machine and don't think twice about it. But out of 300 engineers at the Austin site, we have one Apple fanatic (he's a good friend of mine), and he religiously buys every new iPad, Mac Air, ...

Then he goes by everyone's desk to show his sexy, new machine. Most engineers will say something like "Nice PC" and get back to work. But he'll get mad, and point out the sleek lines and how thin it is :D

Whatever turns you on :)

Evan
06-30-2011, 01:30 PM
I just finished building a new PC. It has a six core AMD Phenom II 1090T processor with the turbocore feature. It's running Windows 7 Pro 64 bit on an ASUS motherboard. The system drive is a 64 gig solid state drive with 240 MB per second read and 140 MB per second write. The data drive is a one terabyte SATA Seagate Barracuda. It has 16 gigs of DDR3 ram. I will be installing my Nvidia GTX 250 video card with a gig of DDR3 ram.

The turbo core feature allows the cores to run at up to 3.62 GHZ if the temperature is low enough. I have a heat pipe cooler on the CPU and at no load it runs at 79 F. It has yet to go over 104F.

The system cost me about $800 to build including a new power supply, the motherboard, the CPU and cooler, the drives and the ram but not including the video card which was another $120 or so.

The performance is incredible on multithreaded rendering applications such as POV-Ray. It outperforms my old XP 32 bit system by about 100 times. Renders that used to take 20 minutes now take 20 seconds.

With 16 gigs of ram and and a 64 bit operating system ram in not an issue. I can afford to leave open even serious memory hogs and it makes no difference.

It took me two days to beat the OS into submission so that it doesn't constantly annoy me with permission issues but I now have it on a tight leash. The first thing I do is to disable all the stupid eye candy which serves only to slow things down.

I haven't yet run any real benchmarks other than the built in system test but on that it scores 7.5 out of 8 excepting the video subsystem. That will change when I install the video card.

goose
06-30-2011, 01:46 PM
After getting an Ipad, I considered getting a Mac. Love the Ipad. Ease of use, well made, stable OS, (has crashed once or twice), easy connectivity, fun to use.

Too bad Apple markets it as an over-blown toy and video player, not a serious work tool.

It's not that Macs are too expensive, but switching all my application software to the Mac would be that and alot of work as well.

precisionmetal
06-30-2011, 02:18 PM
It took me two days to beat the OS into submission so that it doesn't constantly annoy me with permission issues but I now have it on a tight leash. The first thing I do is to disable all the stupid eye candy which serves only to slow things down.

That is what's been one of the most compelling reasons for me to jump ship to Mac -- I bought a new i7 27" iMac late last year. Total time to set it up and be working on it?.... about 5 minutes.

Are Macs expensive? Yep.

Do they work well? Yes... very.

Am I a "disciple of Steve"? Not even close. I just like to buy stuff, plug it in and have it work well. All the Apple products do that (for me).

I've reached a point in my life where I'd rather go hiking or riding my bike than tinker with a computer to get it to work the way I want.

:)

mike os
06-30-2011, 02:18 PM
just a couple of comments

last time I bought a computer I was quite happy to look at a mac... until I visited an apple shop... where the staff could not get the 3 demo machines to work.....or reboot, kind of put me off paying 2x the cost of a pc... & so much for mac os stability.

Whats a virus?.... not seen one of those for probably 10 years.....well except on other peoples computers;)

I have a device running a mac os... & everytime i plug it in there is an update or new user agreement for me to "agree" to..... not had one from MS since I installed......

end of the day .... no difference in hardware, or sw if you run linux, other than the cost.;)

Evan
06-30-2011, 03:28 PM
That is what's been one of the most compelling reasons for me to jump ship to Mac -- I bought a new i7 27" iMac late last year. Total time to set it up and be working on it?.... about 5 minutes.


The average user wouldn't have any of the problems that I did. They aren't dropping files into the system directories so certain older programs will run. For the regular users Windows 7 is just fine out of the box.

If you want to see what I mean just try getting access to the system directories on a Mac.

Evan
06-30-2011, 03:32 PM
last time I bought a computer I was quite happy to look at a mac... until I visited an apple shop... where the staff could not get the 3 demo machines to work.....or reboot, kind of put me off paying 2x the cost of a pc... & so much for mac os stability.



Unless something has changed since I last checked, the core operating system on a Mac is UNIX. Unix is extremely stable and mature. Any problems you might have with a Mac are due to the shell that Apple provides, not the OS.

added: Apple didn't write the operating system for the Mac since OSX. It is the Berkeley Standard Distribution of UNIX, otherwise known as BSD UNIX. All that Apple does is to provide a user interface to UNIX.

mike os
06-30-2011, 03:46 PM
Unless something has changed since I last checked, the core operating system on a Mac is UNIX. Unix is extremely stable and mature. Any problems you might have with a Mac are due to the shell that Apple provides, not the OS.


quite right... but "mac OS xxxxx" is fantastically marvelously utterly perfect in every possible way & never ever ever ever slows down, let alone break or possibly ever even think about going wrong even a little bit because it was created by a computer god called steve someone who used to work for some other bloke called william...... I forget... Doors?, well something like that... and the world is now a better and safer place because we have apple............. etc ad nauseum



oh and did I mention alll its great features and how "cool" it looks & everything & how I am automatically better than everyone else becasue I have a pratbook & you dont....... etc:D vomit

end of the day you have 2 "real" choices, an IBM clone PC running windows or unix.....name on box irrelevant as long as it works for you;)

lazlo
06-30-2011, 03:50 PM
Mac OS is based on the Mach kernel from Carnegie Mellon. Various bits and pieces of FreeBSD and NetBSD have been incorporated over the years.

But there's tens of million of lines of Apple-specific goodness layered on top of it, from the GUI, to the Objective-C object hierarchy and database, Apple ABI's, streaming multimedia interfaces, OpenGL, ...

Bob Fisher
06-30-2011, 05:16 PM
This entire discussion is a huge waste of time. Rush likes Macs, nothing more need be said.Bob.

brandonorsak
06-30-2011, 05:21 PM
Anybody here run DAW software such as Pro-Tools? It seems the majority of the time DAWs are run by Mac. I sucessfully am able to use Win7 x64 but have contemplated purchasing a Mac for editing audio. It's hard to justify the purchase just for a hobby I sometimes find spare time to dabble with.

On another note....a co-worker who recently retired was given a Mac Pro in the huge aluminum case for free but he is not familiar with it so he chooses not to learn it or give it more than 5 minutes of his time. Every time someone gives me something it is usually junk. Guess thats just my luck.

Ries
06-30-2011, 05:54 PM
I just finished building a new PC. It has a six core AMD Phenom II 1090T processor with the turbocore feature. It's running Windows 7 Pro 64 bit on an ASUS motherboard. The system drive is a 64 gig solid state drive with 240 MB per second read and 140 MB per second write. The data drive is a one terabyte SATA Seagate Barracuda. It has 16 gigs of DDR3 ram. I will be installing my Nvidia GTX 250 video card with a gig of DDR3 ram.

The turbo core feature allows the cores to run at up to 3.62 GHZ if the temperature is low enough. I have a heat pipe cooler on the CPU and at no load it runs at 79 F. It has yet to go over 104F.

The system cost me about $800 to build including a new power supply, the motherboard, the CPU and cooler, the drives and the ram but not including the video card which was another $120 or so.

The performance is incredible on multithreaded rendering applications such as POV-Ray. It outperforms my old XP 32 bit system by about 100 times. Renders that used to take 20 minutes now take 20 seconds.

With 16 gigs of ram and and a 64 bit operating system ram in not an issue. I can afford to leave open even serious memory hogs and it makes no difference.

It took me two days to beat the OS into submission so that it doesn't constantly annoy me with permission issues but I now have it on a tight leash. The first thing I do is to disable all the stupid eye candy which serves only to slow things down.

I haven't yet run any real benchmarks other than the built in system test but on that it scores 7.5 out of 8 excepting the video subsystem. That will change when I install the video card.

The reason I am typing this on a Mac is that I have no idea what ANY of the above means, and no desire to have to find out.

I also have a PC ten feet behind me, to running Windows 98, because there is program I need to use that will only run on that. I hate the damn thing- but I use it when I must.

I also run a second Mac with Windows XP on it, to run the latest version of Quickbooks Pro, which wont do payroll on a Mac.

So, 3 computers, often using all 3 in a single day, two versions of Windows, one solely running OSx- and I would be so happy if I could just do it all on the Mac.

Its just easier. I dont "game", I dont run huge CAD/CAM programs, and for email, word processing, photoshop and web browsing, which 99% of my computer use is, the Mac is better.
I have never had a "permission issue" on a Mac. Never had a virus, or virus software. Never had a crash, in 8 or 10 macs over 25 years.

If I needed to run a CAD/CAM program, I would without a moments hesitation load it on my Mac that runs Windows, and be just fine.

As for money- I doubt I could build the equivalent computer to Evans for a mere $800- he really knows what he is doing- but I dont mind in the least paying about $200 or $300 more, the price of my current Mac desktop, to avoid the continuing hassles of a PC.

There are power users, and they probably make up a few percent, if that, of overall computer users. The rest of us prefer not knowing whats under the hood.

lazlo
06-30-2011, 06:01 PM
I also run a second Mac with Windows XP on it, to run the latest version of Quickbooks Pro, which wont do payroll on a Mac.

OK, this I never understood. How can you hate a PC so much that you buy a Mac to run Windows on it? :p

.RC.
06-30-2011, 06:42 PM
Commodore 64 pwns all....

RichTes
06-30-2011, 07:27 PM
I only bought a Mac when I couldn't buy a Banana Jr. 6000.

Back in '87 in grad school I was the first kid on the block with a Color Mac II or whatever they called it. It was a good system. Had a PowerTower pro when you could buy different Macs. Downstairs is a little Mac Mini I use for a few things but it's older and somewhat slow. Don't think it ever crashed. The Unix core appears more stable.

Built the daughters a PC system for Christmas. It only cost $800 with the Intel I7, 1TB drive and a 1GB video card. Zippy but doesn't do much. Wife's laptop I'm typing on now is dog slow and I don't know why.

Passed the exams and was a Microsoft Certified Solution Developer a few years ago so I've been pretty deep on either side of the fence.

Got to try a Linux system.

Rich

RB211
06-30-2011, 08:16 PM
Why is your handle a very good RR engine, RB211 , a beautiful bit of engineering in itself, i assume you must be from an aeronautical background?
all the best
mark
My old nickname was BillH and I was banned from this forum, have since behaved and been allowed to stay on here.
Yes, I have an aeronautical background, Flight Instructor, MEI, CFII, and have flown commercial with Flight Express in C210 death traps complete with smoking rivets in icing conditions. Have never flown anything bigger than a CJ1 or a King Air C90, unless you count the level D full motion 757 simulator which was the easiest flying airplane I had flown.

Why RB211? Well.. I really do not care for Rolls Royce, however I am a huge Lockheed L1011 fan, and well, that great airplane only used RB211's.

Trying my best to leave aviation, currently taking a micro biology course, going to switch into the medical field.

RB211
06-30-2011, 08:23 PM
Macs for video editing? I find Adobe Premiere with After Effects coupled with Audition to be as professional as Solidworks is for design work.

I once owned a Mac Mini.. 95% of the time I ran WinXP on it.
Room mates all have Macs, yes, they are very nice to look at, are engineered very well, but I am not paying twice as much for half the horsepower.
Win7 is fantastic OS, and If you REALLY want OS X, you can always hack it to run on your PC... Just saying...

loose nut
06-30-2011, 08:43 PM
I built a new PC a couple of months ago

I 7 Quad core (8 if you count the hyper threaded cores)
12 Gig's of ram
3 1/2 Terrabytes of HD space
Smoking hot ATI video
Windows 7 Pro

never having it lock up once, priceless!!!

Most of the lock ups people get are caused by poorly coded third party software not Windows, this is a result of MS keeping it's coding loose so that programmers can actually do something with the computer and not limited by a locked down OS as stated earlier. You can't blame MS because of programmers that can do there jobs very good.

airsmith282
06-30-2011, 09:28 PM
Maybe it is the area I am living in(San Francisco), but everyone has a mac... I try to explain to them that their Mac is nothing more than an over priced PC that happens to run a nice operating system.
Never mind that if you were to compare the prices of a PC to a Mac, you would find that the PC usually has twice the cores, twice the ram, twice the hard drive space, and the PC is almost always built to a standard build factor that you can fix yourself, for the same price.

Oh they chime in and say the Mac is far more efficient... ??? Really? Well how do you explain PC's being able to run the same computers games at a higher frame rate? Well... you do have a point...

My HP laptop that cost me 560$ runs Ubuntu linux flawlessly, and dual boots into win7 when I need to use certain programs... You can't buy a Mac for that price, cheapest one is a Mac Mini for 700$, and it comes with a whopping 2gb of ram?
Oh the murder you can get away with when you have a kool aid drinking cult following...

for a public accessable comoputer system there is no way in hell youll beat a mac its just life and its one of thoes things you have to learn to accept macs rule pc's drool ,, after all if it was not for apple pcs would not have windows thats fact if you know your history ..

justanengineer
06-30-2011, 09:51 PM
I love this argument...Im going to say my piece then go make some popcorn for the followup...

My Mac cost less than half the price of the PC at work. Doing advanced simulation work - FEA, CFD, chemical/thermal engine analysis, and using a few 3d modeling programs, I have to pick and choose between programs. With the PC Im lucky if I can get anything else to work while certain simulations are running ("thinking"). Meanwhile with the Mac I can run multiples, despite running Windows on it to use these programs.

Evan
06-30-2011, 09:57 PM
For $800 my new machine will not only run half a dozen virtual machines but will blow the heatsinks off any Mac out there while doing so.

boslab
06-30-2011, 10:24 PM
For $800 my new machine will not only run half a dozen virtual machines but will blow the heatsinks off any Mac out there while doing so.
your more computer smart than me, could you give us some of the spec your useing as mine is at the point where renewal is an option, i would like to fiddle wth linux but have not got a lot of idea, i mean some of our old machines at work run os2, i'm not joking, they have been switched on 24/7 for 25 years! i think thats a record in itself also can i use mac software as well if i want to, some does look attractive though i dont know how good it is at home, the one we had in work failed to perform on the vision system which is a graphical inspection system for coil defects, the cameras scan ther sheet steel at 60km/hr and are supposed to identify and catalouge defect type position and severity, the DEC works ok the mac couldent cope
mark

precisionmetal
06-30-2011, 11:43 PM
If you want to see what I mean just try getting access to the system directories on a Mac.


Evan,

<deleted> -- no point getting into a semantics discussion. ;) Suffice to say access to system directories or files on a Mac is a piece of cake with just a bit of experience.

Sounds like you've built a heck of a PC for not much money. Good deal.

beanbag
07-01-2011, 12:52 AM
When they say "Macs just work", that is largely true. There is a very large user base of others with exactly the same hardware and software as yourself so almost any problem you run into will already have been solved by somebody else.

The other thing is that Macs don't emit this aura of cheap crap thrown together with annoying software installed by the manufacturer like virus scanners and browser toolbars.

lazlo
07-01-2011, 01:00 AM
<deleted> -- no point getting into a semantics discussion. ;)

It was precious. :)

macona
07-01-2011, 01:30 AM
I have two macs and a whole bunch of PC's. I have a Mac Mini Server (new version) and an old G5 tower.

There is always the complaint that macs are more expensive. But you have to see the build quality and design in a mac. If you open one up and see inside they are quite amazing. At work we use almost all macs. There are a few PCs, like the ones running the Kuper motion control cards. Those run in dos and need an ISA bus and there will probably never be a replacement for them at this rate. There seems to be very little failures on the macs. The few failures are usually hard drives and things like that.

I opened up one of the new unibody macbooks a couple months ago. One of the IT guys dropped it on the concrete and it dented the corner so I did what I could to fix it up. Other than the dent the machine was perfect. They are beautiful inside. I have worked on quite a few PC laptops, not fun, not in the least.

There are no viruses for current macs. There is some malware out there, trojans, but those are a different beast from a virus.

Mac system directories are just as easy to get into. Couple are more hidden but all you need to do is select go to folder and type in the path.

Evan
07-01-2011, 01:37 AM
I was merely illustrating the point that problems with permissions are not a problem for the average user of either system. If you do try to fiddle with the system directories then you will be prevented from doing so unless you know how to change the permissions. Of course it's easy if you know how but I ran into extra problems where it wouldn't even let me into my own directories because they were set up while the drive was in another system. That isn't going to happen for the average user either.

I went out today and bought a new video card instead of using the old one. It's an Nvidia GeForce GT 430 with a gig of DDR3 ram. Seems to be running pretty well. That brings the price up to about $900.

PeteF
07-01-2011, 01:44 AM
Comparing a bunch of parts you've assembled to a turn-key solution would have to be one of the most moronic statements I've read here in a long while. The former is at that stage nothing more than a group of parts, the latter comes ready to log on with not only the OS but all the applications the vast majority of users ever use, plus 24/7 hardware and software support!

Personally when I buy a tv I don't go out and buy a bunch of parts, then spend a week of my life assembling them to get a functioning appliance. I plug it in, hit autotune, then get back to my life. My DVD player didn't come is 10 different boxes from around the world, one appliance one box I plugged it in and it just worked. Despite working in the industry, several years ago I decided to see what all the Mac fuss was about, bought a machine plugged it in and it worked ... As it continues to do faultlessly 4 years later.

I couldn't give a toss if somebody says they're "running" a super-macro-gee-whizz turbo squillion core processor that circulates anti-matter at 2 degrees above absolute zero and powers the entire west coast of North America with the energy it puts back in the grid. It sounds to me more like just another pathetic attempt by those with low self-esteem to try to impress others. If that's your "thing" then knock yourself out, but don't look down your nose at those of us who care no more for what's inside the box than anyother domestic appliance. It simply goes to prove that those socially inept have no preference for the badge on their home computer!

Pete

RB211
07-01-2011, 01:48 AM
Comparing a bunch of parts you've assembled to a turn-key solution would have to be one of the most moronic statements I've read here in a long while. The former is at that stage nothing more than a group of parts, the latter comes ready to log on with not only the OS but all the applications the vast majority of users ever use, plus 24/7 hardware and software support!

Personally when I buy a tv I don't go out and buy a bunch of parts, then spend a week of my life assembling them to get a functioning appliance. I plug it in, hit autotune, then get back to my life. My DVD player didn't come is 10 different boxes from around the world, one appliance one box I plugged it in and it just worked. Despite working in the industry, several years ago I decided to see what all the Mac fuss was about, bought a machine plugged it in and it worked ... As it continues to do faultlessly 4 years later.

I couldn't give a toss if somebody says they're "running" a super-macro-gee-whizz turbo squillion core processor that circulates anti-matter at 2 degrees above absolute zero and powers the entire west coast of North America with the energy it puts back in the grid. It sounds to me more like just another pathetic attempt by those with low self-esteem to try to impress others. If that's your "thing" then knock yourself out, but don't look down your nose at those of us who care no more for what's inside the box than anyother domestic appliance. It simply goes to prove that those socially inept have no preference for the badge on their home computer!

Pete
Go to Dell, buy one of their PC's that are ready to go, compare the price of it to a Mac Mini, look at the specs, see the much better value you get with the dell.

Evan
07-01-2011, 01:52 AM
No viruses for the Mac? Then why this?



Apple Releases Security Updates to Address Multiple Vulnerabilities
added June 24, 2011 at 08:04 am

Apple has released Mac OS X 10.6.8 and Security Update 2011-004 to address multiple vulnerabilities. These vulnerabilities may allow an attacker to execute arbitrary code, disclose sensitive information, or cause a denial-of-service condition.

US-CERT encourages users and administrators to review Apple Support Article HT4723 and apply any necessary updates to help mitigate the risks.


http://www.us-cert.gov/current/#apple_releases_security_updates_to3

Evan
07-01-2011, 01:55 AM
Comparing a bunch of parts you've assembled to a turn-key solution would have to be one of the most moronic statements I've read here in a long while.

You have just surpassed it by a wide margin. I could have had those parts assembled for me as a turn key solution the same as any other. In fact, it was exactly that service I provided for my customers when I ran my computer store. :rolleyes:

PeteF
07-01-2011, 01:56 AM
Go to Dell, buy one of their PC's that are ready to go, compare the price of it to a Mac Mini, look at the specs, see the much better value you get with the dell.

What are you talking about! I could buy 2 POS Hyundai cars for the same price as even a base model Mercedes. What's your point?

RB211
07-01-2011, 02:01 AM
What are you talking about! I could buy 2 POS Hyundai cars for the same price as even a base model Mercedes. What's your point?

My point? MACS = PC's. Macs have intel CPU's, Nvidia or ATI video cards, just like PC's. Use the same kind of ram, use the same kind of HD's, etc.
Look at the Mac Mini, uses an obsolete intel CPU, it was obsolete the day they put it in there. Only 2 gb of ram in a mac mini? For 700$?

Using your Analogy, You are buying a Hyundai branded as a Mercedes, at a Mercedes price tag!

PeteF
07-01-2011, 02:06 AM
Yet another stupid statement Evan, it sounds a lot like petty jealousy...yet again. When one buys a product like these Apples (or other turn key solutions) they are buying both the hardware, the complete software, and the support for both. 24/7 guaranteed support. Not a bunch if parts thrown in a box by some bloke in a local store who may or may not be contactable on his pager ( as it would have been at the time). Like I said, if that's your area if interest (as it was once mine) then knock yourself out. But there is a world of difference between the two.

Evan
07-01-2011, 02:12 AM
You have just provided a perfect example of why I consider you a troll. We have been having a perfectly civil discussion and then you drop in and call another member's statement "moronic". That is troll behaviour.

My advice to all is to ignore the Troll as I shall.

PeteF
07-01-2011, 02:15 AM
My point? MACS = PC's. Macs have intel CPU's, Nvidia or ATI video cards, just like PC's. Use the same kind of ram, use the same kind of HD's, etc.
Look at the Mac Mini, uses an obsolete intel CPU, it was obsolete the day they put it in there. Only 2 gb of ram in a mac mini? For 700$?

Using your Analogy, You are buying a Hyundai branded as a Mercedes, at a Mercedes price tag!
Well rather than hypothesizing about what you think is the situation why don't you do as I did and actually buy one and see for yourself. You have had no shortage if people here who have, like myself, had the pleasure if seeing how well the physical product is built yet you continue to make inaccurate statements based purely on what you hope is the case. As u said right at the beginning of this pointless thread, who cares! You began this thread by saying "you don't understand..." and have had a number if people from both sides of the fence explain some of the differences and why a certain premium is paid. Yet you continue to wallow along clearly intent to simply bash the product you clearly know nothing about. If you think Apple is such crap, don't buy it!

PeteF
07-01-2011, 02:25 AM
You have just provided a perfect example of why I consider you a troll. We have been having a perfectly civil discussion and then you drop in and call another member's statement "moronic". That is troll behaviour.

My advice to all is to ignore the Troll as I shall.

Which member would that have been then?

RB211
07-01-2011, 02:40 AM
Well rather than hypothesizing about what you think is the situation why don't you do as I did and actually buy one and see for yourself. You have had no shortage if people here who have, like myself, had the pleasure if seeing how well the physical product is built yet you continue to make inaccurate statements based purely on what you hope is the case. As u said right at the beginning of this pointless thread, who cares! You began this thread by saying "you don't understand..." and have had a number if people from both sides of the fence explain some of the differences and why a certain premium is paid. Yet you continue to wallow along clearly intent to simply bash the product you clearly know nothing about. If you think Apple is such crap, don't buy it!
I've already said I owned a mac mini, back when they cost 500$ It was a great little computer, however, 95% of the time I had to run WinXP on it in order to use my software. I simply did not need another pc. Real reason I bought it was to try out the Development package which I liked a lot, however couldn't justify the experiment for more than a couple of months. I did not want something that cost 500$ that I could not fix myself. I am 100% against paying some one else to fix my computer.

mike os
07-01-2011, 02:53 AM
What are you talking about! I could buy 2 POS Hyundai cars for the same price as even a base model Mercedes. What's your point?

If you think Merc is still quality..... I seriously question your judgement;)

compared to any other turnkey pc manufacturer.... dell HP leonovo etc, the apple pc is still overpriced and underperforming.... but looks "pretty"

macona
07-01-2011, 03:27 AM
No viruses for the Mac? Then why this?



http://www.us-cert.gov/current/#apple_releases_security_updates_to3


Still no virus. Security updates are continuously putout for mac and windows.

macona
07-01-2011, 03:34 AM
My point? MACS = PC's. Macs have intel CPU's, Nvidia or ATI video cards, just like PC's. Use the same kind of ram, use the same kind of HD's, etc.
Look at the Mac Mini, uses an obsolete intel CPU, it was obsolete the day they put it in there. Only 2 gb of ram in a mac mini? For 700$?

Using your Analogy, You are buying a Hyundai branded as a Mercedes, at a Mercedes price tag!


Look at the cost of pc's that have a similar form factor and basic hardware specs and you will find that the mac mini is actually cheaper. Ultra small form factors pc's like the Aopen units are $400 to $500 for a bare bones unit, no processor, no ram, no HD, and they are still twice the size and have an external power supply.

http://www.nextdaypc.com/main/products/details.aspx?PID=A373364&rsmainid=ND0130014

.RC.
07-01-2011, 03:36 AM
One forum I visit has any mac vs PC thread deleted on sight due to the fact it is a religious argument...

PeteF
07-01-2011, 03:42 AM
If you think Merc is still quality..... I seriously question your judgement;)

Ergh, ain't that the truth. The accountants are killing all the good proverbs :p

RC I'm with you. Delete the thread. It serves zero useful purpose and serves simply to be divisive.

precisionmetal
07-01-2011, 03:43 AM
I've already said I owned a mac mini, back when they cost 500$ It was a great little computer, however, 95% of the time I had to run WinXP on it in order to use my software. I simply did not need another pc. Real reason I bought it was to try out the Development package which I liked a lot, however couldn't justify the experiment for more than a couple of months. I did not want something that cost 500$ that I could not fix myself. I am 100% against paying some one else to fix my computer.

Not sure where you're going with this thread -- I assume Apple bashing, which you have every right to do if you're so inclined. ;) There are undoubtedly plenty of "Steve worshipers" who could use a dose of reality, LOL!

Here is how I see the comparison:

With PCs, you get a HUGE selection of hardware, a big bang for the buck due to the volume of PCs being sold, a pretty good operating system from Microsoft in Win7 (finally), and unfortunately a plethora of kids all over the world that are pumping out trojans, viruses and malware that's largely targeted to PCs (because that's where the numbers are).

With a Mac, you get very nice hardware, an OS that works really well (much easier to fine-tune the OS when the hardware is locked-down and only made by one company), software that "generally" has better inter-operability, pretty darn good support (once again, easier because the hardware comes from one source), and of course very substantial resale value (ever see what a used MBP or iMac goes for?).

They both work. One gets you a lot of power for less money, possibly with a few more problems. The other costs more up front, and might last longer and generally has a more refined OS (IMO).

Choose whatever floats your boat, and what's the big deal if I choose to spend twice as much on my computer as you do -- it is simply a tradeoff, and I choose to spend more up front to get what has value to me.


:)

beanbag
07-01-2011, 04:16 AM
Maybe it is the area I am living in(San Francisco), but everyone has a mac...

That explains it. You are surrounded by one of the annoying Mac demographics, namely the "hipsters". If you were surrounded by some of the other demographics, like "grannies" then maybe you wouldn't have such a vehement objection.

DATo
07-01-2011, 05:57 AM
Oh my gosh !!! All the anger in this thread !!!!

I think we should all now stand in a circle, hold hands and sing 'Feelings'. [:-o