PDA

View Full Version : Finding water, driving a point, rocks, your experience and tips



vpt
07-01-2011, 03:39 PM
So I picked up a older pitcher pump from a yard sale and rebuilt it and will be giving it to my mother because she likes stuff like that. I would like to make it functional as well so I picked up a 1.25" point and 10' of pipe to start off. Now the problem I have is the area we live in is pretty much all rock from 3' to 100' down. I have been using a small stainless rod about 12 feet long to probe the ground to find whatever spots I can that I will miss the rocks and get at least 12' in. 3 days of probing I found 2 spots and both spots when I pulled the rod up the end looks like it was in dry clay. That brings up my next question, is there a way to check for water first before pounding the point in? Any tips to make the point go in easier?

I watched a few different videos and these two are interesting to me. Comments on these techniques as well?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGq0ETzZP0E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLgy8KPXme4

Evan
07-01-2011, 05:13 PM
Don't anybody suggest.. ummm... that thing people do with a couple of sticks.....:eek:

Forestgnome
07-01-2011, 05:25 PM
Don't anybody suggest.. ummm... that thing people do with a couple of sticks.....:eek:
I would, but it wouldn't make much difference. Water or not you're not going to make it through rock with a driven point.

Bob Fisher
07-01-2011, 05:41 PM
The only place where I've seen a driven point work is in sandy soil. The last house I lived in had a single point for the water supply. I added 5 points, teed together to supply a 1&1/2 hp pump for the lawn. More than once, I backfed the house from this system when faced with pump problems. you did not need to find water,it was all around about 18 to 19 ft down. Never saw a point work in clay soil,the water just cannot flow through the soil fast enough. m personal experience for what it's worth. Bob.

vpt
07-01-2011, 05:49 PM
Don't anybody suggest.. ummm... that thing people do with a couple of sticks.....:eek:


I remember a thread talking about that and I tried it a little bit with a couple tig filler rods. I felt kind of dumb walking around holding two rods so I quit. lol

I am kind of curious if there is something I can put on the end of the 1/4" rod I am using to tell if it reaches water or not.

Evan
07-01-2011, 05:53 PM
Go look it up on Practical Machinst. In fact, just for fun start a thread on it over there. :D


I am kind of curious if there is something I can put on the end of the 1/4" rod I am using to tell if it reaches water or not.

Drill a hole in the end and insert some metallic sodium.

Oh yeah, don't stand over the rod.

brian Rupnow
07-01-2011, 08:34 PM
Evan---My dad witched for water all over the area I grew up in, and was very succesfull at it. People would come from miles away to get dad to go to wherever they were going to build a new house and have him witch (some call it "douse") for water. He used a forked stick, cut from a young tree that had a pit bearing fruit. (as in peach, not apple or pear.) It never worked for me, and I always kind of scoffed at it. My dad was not a man to be trifled with, so he had me roll up my sleeves and hold the forked stick, and he walked along behind me, reaching over my shoulder and holding my wrists in his hands. When we walked over a vein of water, that damn stick suddenly took on a life of its own, almost ripping the skin off my palms. As soon as dad let go of my wrists, the stick was just a stick again. My uncle Jack Anderson witched for water with two copper rods about 18" long. he would hold one rod in each hand, by the ends, about 4" apart, parallel to each other and parallel to the ground as he walked along. When he walked over a vein of water, the rods would cross one and other.

Evan
07-01-2011, 08:52 PM
There is water under the surface nearly everywhere, even in the desert. The trick is to prove that someone found the best spot. I can't recall anyone ever doing that.

Gravy
07-01-2011, 09:29 PM
Go look it up on Practical Machinst. In fact, just for fun start a thread on it over there. :D



Drill a hole in the end and insert some metallic sodium.

Oh yeah, don't stand over the rod.

You almost owed me a new laptop for that. I swallowed my beverage just in time before I spewed a mouthful on the keyboard.:eek:

sasquatch
07-01-2011, 09:32 PM
Agree about the problem with driving a well point into clay, not good. However ,, probably not going to get down deep enough to break through the clay into a layer of water bearing gravel.

Water witching-or Dowsing,,,, A few well drillers mostly the older ones around here will still witch for a spot first, maybe a gimmick, maybe not,, but it does work, seen it react strongly many times,, a branch will not work for me but two metal rods do react.

As Brian stated,, i have used a branch that doesn,t work for me,, BUT-- a branch user did touch my arm, and the Branch did react good and strong , which i found quite amazing!!

Gravy
07-01-2011, 10:04 PM
I'm a pretty skeptical person when it comes to" unexplained phenomena". I think a lot of it is fuzzy thinking and hysteria. To me, UFO's aren't proof of aliens - they are proof of "unidentified".

That said, at the insistence of my boss, I have walked around with "witching sticks" (bent welding rods) in my hands and had them turn 180* without my conscious intent. I don't know if the sticks were detecting an underground utility by magnetic fields/psychic energy/phlogiston or if I was subconsciously manipulating them in response to visual clues that I cannot see when I'm consciously looking for them. Going in, I thought it was all nonsense and hokum, but that assumption didn't stand up to the observed data. Something weird happened that doesn't fit my worldview.

Even worse, I haven't gotten to take a backhoe to those parking lots and farmer's fields and see if the pipes and wires were really there. So I'm left wondering what the hell was going on.

I hates me some unexplained phenomena.

vpt
07-01-2011, 10:11 PM
A deceased neighbor was (from what people tell me) able to witch for water using a branched willow stick.

john hobdeclipe
07-01-2011, 10:11 PM
Hot dang, I can see another good thread coming.

Rustybolt
07-01-2011, 10:38 PM
A deceased neighbor was (from what people tell me) able to witch for water using a branched willow stick.




water zombies!

Gravy
07-01-2011, 11:14 PM
I don't know nuttin' about dowsing or witching or water zombies. It may be all due to phases of the moon or open neutrals or this week's Enco discount. All I know is that those bent welding rods whipped around without my conscious knowledge or intent, and I'm frustrated because I haven't gotten to excavate to see if there is really anything there underground.

I don't have an axe to grind - just an unexplained mystery that I don't have the means to explore definitively.

Where's the frustrated "GAAAAHHH!" smiley?

Boucher
07-01-2011, 11:30 PM
Andy there is a lot more economic stimulus for geophysical research in looking for oil than water. They still drill multimillion dollar dry holes. The only way to tell for sure there is water there is to drill the hole. A good local water well contractor or a state hydrologist can probably give you better information than a machinist forum. I have thirty five years’ experience on the back of a drill rig and a Professional Engineering license. I can tell you a lot about my trade area but I still don't see underground any better now than I did when I started.

My dad took a 2" auger and drilled about 10 ft. then hooked a garden hose up and washed a sand point into about 20 ft. He could run a 1HP centrifugal pump off that. The pumps wore out in about a year from the sand they pumped. It was still an economic success. I was always curious about how big the hole was down there.

Putting a hole in rock is just a matter of having the right tool for the job. You can't put a hole in rock with a sand point.

I have a couple of old pitcher pumps that are destined to set beside my water garden and be supplied by a fountain pump to look like they are supplying water.

knedvecki
07-02-2011, 12:35 AM
When I lived in Colorado and it was time to drill a well, all of the neighbors took their turn at dousing or witching for the best spot. The willow stick worked for some people and the copper wires crossing each other worked for most everyone. We took the spot that was hit by about 15 out of 20 people and drilled there hitting water at 26 feet and going a total depth of about 100 feet. For a area where the average well depth was 300 feet, I think we did pretty good. In Florida, where the soil is sandy, you can use a 2 inch pvc screen with 2 inch pipe to put in a well. First, you post hole dig the hole to about 5 foot depth, then hand auger to about 15 foot, then you mud in the hole and use a hand bail bucket ( a 3' long piece of 1 1/4 inch pipe with a check valve at one end and a loop at the top end where you tie your rope), to pull the dirt from below the screen while you work the screen and pipe into the ground adding 10' sections as you go. Caution: do not let the bucket top get below the screen and do not stop for a break (the mud will suck up on the screen and you will be stuck). When done you would tamp a juniper plug into the end of the screen using the bail bucket to tamp.

Jaakko Fagerlund
07-02-2011, 05:35 AM
Not this dowsing/witching crap again

sasquatch
07-02-2011, 09:14 AM
I forgot to mention that the prefered stick/branch crotch around here seems to be "Witch-Hazel".

Jacko was probably wondering what was the prefered wood.:D

Abner
07-02-2011, 09:36 AM
If you had asked me before I had my well witched I would tell you it wasn't possible.

My cousin used to brass rods 1/8" bent in an L. He held these parallel and when they cross he would put a stick in the ground. When he had enough sticks, water seams I think he called them he would look for a place where they crossed.

He then sat on a bucket with and I'm not ****ting you a 60 w light bulb on the end of a piece of gas welding rod about 3' long. He sat there and this thing started to bounce, then wiggled back and forth sideways and then started to bounce again and finally wiggled sideways again and never stopped.

He then told me each bounce was a foot. I would find some water at 57-60' and then more water at 98'.

Well we hit 10 GPM at 58' and 42 GPM at 100'. I called him up and told him he was slipping - he was off by 2 feet.

I still think it's voodoo-ish, but I watched him do it, laughing in disbelief as he told me. Maybe the chemical content or genetic makeup of some people's bodies make a difference. He would find buried water lines for people too.

being the smart ass I am I have the following questions; would the bounce of a 100 watt bulb be 20"? Does each sideways movement equal 1 GPM? Do I sound jealous- damn right.

Boucher
07-02-2011, 11:40 AM
I think that the next person to bring this up on a machine shop forum should be banned from posting for a year. This is a discussion that will never be settled. After thirty five years in the water well business and drilling thousands of wells I am tired of the one experience Experts.

A.K. Boomer
07-02-2011, 02:33 PM
I'm a pretty skeptical person when it comes to" unexplained phenomena". I think a lot of it is fuzzy thinking and hysteria. To me, UFO's aren't proof of aliens - they are proof of "unidentified".

That said, at the insistence of my boss, I have walked around with "witching sticks" (bent welding rods) in my hands and had them turn 180* without my conscious intent. I don't know if the sticks were detecting an underground utility by magnetic fields/psychic energy/phlogiston or if I was subconsciously manipulating them in response to visual clues that I cannot see when I'm consciously looking for them. Going in, I thought it was all nonsense and hokum, but that assumption didn't stand up to the observed data. Something weird happened that doesn't fit my worldview.

Even worse, I haven't gotten to take a backhoe to those parking lots and farmer's fields and see if the pipes and wires were really there. So I'm left wondering what the hell was going on.

I hates me some unexplained phenomena.


Your secrets safe with me :p

I don't have an explanation for it either and don't know what really made the rods I was holding cross - all I can tell you is after passing bye the "spot" they uncrossed back to "normal" and then both backing up into the spot or doing a 180 and walking - again they crossed - and this was not some kind of self induced mild cross over - this was me trying to prove the guy wrong and fighting the rods in the opposite direction - It blew me away - It's one of those things that until it happens to you you simply don't believe it, I don't know what it "is" - all I do know is that it "is" a real effect.
This guy didn't look like Jed Clampit or some hillbilly off the street - he was simply just a normal looking guy trying to run a business,

I was laughing at him under my breath till he told me to try it - then I guess I got "educated" ;)

danlb
07-02-2011, 02:59 PM
While I can not account for the movement of the 'dowsing rods', I seem to recall that in most cases the aquifer is at about the same level throughout an area. If you drill at the point that the dowser finds, then 100 feet away, you'll hit the same water source, which is the local water table. Based on those two facts, I'd not be surprised if a driller was able to predict where he'd hit water.

Related story; My gramdpa was delighted when the neighbor sunk a well and got a good flow at only 30 feet. He said that meant he'd be able to do the same on his adjacent property.

In my area you are not allowed to have your own well. The central water district provides all the water and owns the water rights. Although there are 6 or 7 wells throughout the city, they are all fed by the same water table. The newest debate is how to get more water back to the water table instead of pumping treated "used" water to the ocean 35 miles away.

Dan

jdunmyer
07-02-2011, 03:34 PM
RE: sand points: As far as I know, you need to be in sandy ground for them to work, clay & rocks won't get it. Right where I live, there's a layer of water sand that varies between 6' and 20' from the surface, and if you get a point set in that layer, you'll have a bunch of water. I've found that the best way is to use a posthole auger that you can add to the shaft and dig a hole. Mine uses a 3/4" pipe as the shaft, so it's easy to lengthen it. Dig the hole until it starts to wash in, you'll not be able to dig much more, and you'll know that you're in the water sand. Using a drive cap and driver, pound the point a foot or 18" into the bottom of your dug hole. Backfill, install your pitcher pump, and clean 'er out. Once it's clean, connect your electric pump.

I installed the point well in my shop in 1968, and it'll supply about 2 GPM for as long as I want to pump it. That's with a single point, multiples do better. A friend & I once installed a point well and filled a swimming pool with it, took 3 days of steady pumping.

If you drive the point, you can't tell if you're at the optimum depth. My shop point dried up after a couple of years because I had driven it, not dug the hole. A hole dug a few feet away showed that I was about 18" too shallow, so I drove it down and it's been fine since. It has 8' of pipe on top of the 36" point, and just a few inches of the pipe comes out of the floor.

I'll not comment on the witching/dowsing. :-)

sasquatch
07-02-2011, 07:44 PM
Oddest thing i,ve seen around my area is good producing wells up on the top of a hill, and they were not down deep enough to be in the water table level of the neighbouring wells down lower.

There are some strange strange claims about water witching, 90% i believe is based on good old fashioned BS!!:D

Carld
07-02-2011, 08:07 PM
I use 2 coat hanger wires bent with about 4" to hold in my hands. I can find buried wires, pipes, metal and other things. I also use them to locate grave sites in a cemetery where the head stones are missing. I think it has mostly to do with disturbed soil.

I haven't tried to find water but I think it would work.

sasquatch
07-02-2011, 08:12 PM
Carld if you can locate those other items you state, i,m betting you could also locate water.

Coat hangers work for me also,, but no luck with any type of tree crotch yet.

Carld
07-02-2011, 08:22 PM
Probably so but I would have to have a drill rig to see if I really found some water. When we had a well drilled in Mo. the driller said the water table is not always even but has high and low spots. He also said the water table rises close to the surface as it nears the edge of a hill so you can get water closer to the surface near the edge of a hill but at the edge you may have to go deeper because it falls down like a water fall.

Since I can't get down in the Earth to see it I have to take his word but he did get us the best water we have ever had in pure white sand.

He also said you won't find water everywhere and the subsoil structure makes a big difference.

In the old days they witched for water near the surface because they had to dig the well and who wants to hand dig 100' deep.

jdunmyer
07-02-2011, 08:51 PM
Here's a hand-dug well that's 109 feet deep, and 32 feet diameter: http://www.bigwell.org/bigwell.html

sasquatch
07-02-2011, 09:12 PM
Interesting article, thanks for posting that.

boslab
07-02-2011, 11:37 PM
ive seen it done lots of times, the welsh water authority employ one! i'm serious, its always a bit of a joke as it never stops raining, we only have 2 weather forcasts in Wales, its raining or its going to rain, there is no shortage of water but they still feel the need to drill.
I can find water quite easily with my excavator, i guarantee to shove the bucket through a water pipe every job, i keep alkathene pipe and couplings in my van [ i'm suprised how expensive plastic valves are! $60 for a 1"] i recon i could hit a water pipe in the desert, its big cables that scare me, must invest in a cat cable finder! i've changed my tracks on the 3ton machine to rubber at councils insistance, i dont know if that will help but it stops me chewing up the pavement and i dont have to lug rubber mats.
Im sure some people can find water this way
mak

Gravy
07-03-2011, 12:02 AM
ive seen it done lots of times, the welsh water authority employ one! i'm serious, its always a bit of a joke as it never stops raining, we only have 2 weather forcasts in Wales, its raining or its going to rain, there is no shortage of water but they still feel the need to drill.
I can find water quite easily with my excavator, i guarantee to shove the bucket through a water pipe every job, i keep alkathene pipe and couplings in my van [ i'm suprised how expensive plastic valves are! $60 for a 1"] i recon i could hit a water pipe in the desert, its big cables that scare me, must invest in a cat cable finder! i've changed my tracks on the 3ton machine to rubber at councils insistance, i dont know if that will help but it stops me chewing up the pavement and i dont have to lug rubber mats.
Im sure some people can find water this way
mak

I know what you mean -

I work with one of the finest utility locators around. He's a genius - put him in a backhoe or excavator, and he will find an underground utility every time.

(To be fair, he has never hit a marked utility)

Still, I've learned to stand well back.:eek:

Forestgnome
07-03-2011, 12:13 AM
I think that the next person to bring this up on a machine shop forum should be banned from posting for a year. This is a discussion that will never be settled. After thirty five years in the water well business and drilling thousands of wells I am tired of the one experience Experts.
But what about the many experience experts?

gmatov
07-03-2011, 12:13 AM
I have no idea how my Dad found water, 75+ years ago on our property, in the middle of a coal mining patch.

A miner, he dug down 40 feet and installed a hand pump that we used all the time I was growing up, in the 40's-50's.

No idea what the flow could have been, supplied our house and the old tenant's house, and enough for both to water their gardens all Summer long. Our garden was a half acre. LOTS of water needed.

Didn't have "city water" til about 1955, and that only because a farmer had a spring house and installed pipes for about half the patch. Buck or 2 a month and he was happy with the return. Remember, miners, and retired miners got maybe 75 bucks a month, total income.
Some of you would think you were slumming if your Dinner bill was less than that.

I gotta get a couple pieces of wire and see if I can do that. I reckon that if you go in with a "this has got to be BS" attitude, it probably won't work.

Maybe it will. Wouldn't THAT be a kick in the as?. Then you could laugh at ME, too.

Cheers,

George

Gravy,

I hired one of them experts, 25 years ago. 1200 feet of plastic gas line to install, 3, actually, 2 were 1 1/4 inch, last was 2 inch. Lady next door showed me pics of the ditch to her house, told me the guy who put her line in put "metal in the ditch". Should be detectable. I think he threw a nail in, here and there.Oh, the 3 were actually close to 2700 feet, totaled.

My digger broke the line in 3 places, each cost me about 75 bucks to repair. I thought I was getting away cheap, having them welded BY the gas company. Actually the weld was more expensive than if I used mechanical couplings. The Boss of the gas crew also jumped their ass for fixing my breaks, when all they were required to do was fuse 2 500 foot lengths and the other 200 foot to that.

That didn''t put me in the hole, but it did eat into my profit. Cost me as little more to lay 16 ga. Cu wire in the trench, I have a 50 pound or so spool of it, flying free at both ends of the ditch, connect a signal generator to the wire, you know where to dig. Good idea, in my opinion, with all the plastic plumbing we use, today.

Forestgnome
07-03-2011, 12:17 AM
While I can not account for the movement of the 'dowsing rods', I seem to recall that in most cases the aquifer is at about the same level throughout an area. If you drill at the point that the dowser finds, then 100 feet away, you'll hit the same water source, which is the local water table. Based on those two facts, I'd not be surprised if a driller was able to predict where he'd hit water.

Related story; My gramdpa was delighted when the neighbor sunk a well and got a good flow at only 30 feet. He said that meant he'd be able to do the same on his adjacent property.

In my area you are not allowed to have your own well. The central water district provides all the water and owns the water rights. Although there are 6 or 7 wells throughout the city, they are all fed by the same water table. The newest debate is how to get more water back to the water table instead of pumping treated "used" water to the ocean 35 miles away.

Dan
It is more useful for finding unmapped pipes. Like you said, most places the aquifer is pretty much at the same level over a large area. Springs are the exception. I've been able to find spots where a shallow hand dug well brings water.

Frank46
07-03-2011, 12:55 AM
When I worked for a living our plant was surveyed. But the grids were 100' on each side. Had a contractor walk out one day with two pieces of brass brazing rod and when the two pieces crossed we dug there. There was the line break we had to repair. Spot on. I've tried this a few times myself and did locate buried water lines, gas lines and oil lines buried in the ground. Sometimes when a water line ruptured the leak was not always where the break was. Spent 16 hrs once doing a water main break as we had to shore up the hole once we got below 4', shore and dig. We were only allowed to hand dig as there were buried feeder cables and the plots on the maps were far from accurate. Frank

A.K. Boomer
07-03-2011, 07:13 AM
Oddest thing i,ve seen around my area is good producing wells up on the top of a hill, and they were not down deep enough to be in the water table level of the neighbouring wells down lower.

There are some strange strange claims about water witching, 90% i believe is based on good old fashioned BS!!:D


Many times aquifers follow the topographic contours of the land masses, anotherwords water can be found quite a bit higher than in lower ground area's not to far away and in fact is the very reason that makes horizontal drilling possible esp. in area's where there's lots of hills and valleys.

Evan
07-03-2011, 10:49 AM
There are some strange strange claims about water witching, 90% i believe is based on good old fashioned BS!!


I think a lot of people that claim to be able to divine the location of water really belief that they have some special ability. They aren't handing out BS as far as they are concerned.

However, and it is a big "however", there is no reason to think that it actually works. It's one of these deals where chance is strongly on the side of succeeding regardless of where you make a hole. There are plenty of predictions that I can make with a very high level of confidence that I will be correct. I predict that the sun will rise tomorrow. Even where there is real uncertainty such as predicting the weather, statistics are on my side. This is much like witching water. For instance, I can predict the weather for tomorrow with a 75% long term average correctness by just saying that it will be the same as today.

In areas where the land is reasonably level then so are the underground strata and predicting where to find water has a high chance of success no matter where the prediction is. That changes in areas such as where I live. The country is extremely lumpy with few flat areas. The underlying strata are mixed up and jumbled. I know of one well that is about 100 feet deep that produces over 100 gallons per minute while another that is a couple of jundred feet away is over 400 feet deep and produces 2 gallons per minute.

Funny thing that isn't coincidental, water witching isn't very popular around here because it doesn't work very well.

Boucher
07-03-2011, 11:12 AM
One does not have to know how something works. If it works it can be statistically substantiated. The Australian Water Well association put money on the table back in the 1970ís and no one has been able to claim it. The probability of finding water varies greatly with different geographic/geological locations.
In areas like fractured rock where success is varied, the water witchers success rate does not rise above the statistical norm.

Boucher
07-03-2011, 11:32 AM
To find underground water a knowledge of the local geology helps. In areas with good aquifers one can even reliably predict the depth. Sometimes near a underground fault line there may be water on one side and not on the other. A professional water well driller never takes pride in a dry hole. If you drill lots of holes in areas of low water availability you are going to drill dry holes.
There is nothing wrong with getting everything that you can lined up in your favor. There are some people that simply cannot accept responsibility for failure. They need to put the blame on someone else. They use the witcher or driller to blame for the failure. That is the way it is.

Evan
07-03-2011, 11:38 AM
One does not have to know how something works.

One does not need to know how something works to use it. However, if it really does work then the mechanism should be explainable. Statistics are useless in proving that something works. Statistics only show correlations, not causation. Water witching has a high probability of success statistically. It isn't because it works as claimed but because drilling a hole in the ground where people tend to live has a high probability of finding water.

There is exactly zero evidence that water witching actually works.

A.K. Boomer
07-03-2011, 01:01 PM
I won't argue with others as to why things happened the way they did for me when I took control of the rods and tried my best to even fight them without being to obvious --- I don't know if it was water or a pipe or if it was Jimmy Hoffa for that matter - I don't know.

What I do know is that the rods went crazy every time in the same spot - and this was inside a building so it could have even been something up above or maybe even off to the sides, This was for real - and I tested it back and forth over and over - it was as real to me as the effects of gravity.

There is an explanation for it im sure - I only wish I could remember what the rods were made of so I might be able to rule out a few things like magnetism and such but now too much time has gone by and I forget.

boslab
07-03-2011, 01:32 PM
try 2 lengths of copper, bout 1/8, 'L' shape, long leg 12/14", short 6/7", the guy on a vid i watched gave those sizes, he specified copper but steel will do like a welding rod and a brazing rod, take some cutters and cross known features, snip the rods back till you feel somthing.
Im not saying that it will work but all i can do is repeat what i heared, i've been tempted to try it, all over britain they reckon the ancient brits stuffed standing stones up on what they called lay lines, what they are i dont know, but theres thousands of them, i have one standing next to my shop in a field, what the hells it for i dont know, was told that these dowsers can pick up these lines, whils i understand where Evans at i would still hang a little on the side of caution when it comes to an outright dismissal, it seems a good argument as for population centres, but what of in the vast austrailian outback, i do beleive implicitly that science has not found and catagorised all the phenomena that the world has to offer, just like the population of the periodic table, new elements [in the past that is] started to slot in, they had not been identified, even the most abundant Helium, didnt really get identified till spectroscopy arrived.
When making steel we still chuck lumps of beechwood in, no substitute has been found and the effects quite subtle, oak wont do! but slag viscosity tells us that somthing happens on the slag/metal interface, thats where S and particularly phos get removed as Phospherous Pentoxide [P2O5]
Could it not be the same for the rest of the world, i can remember my first encounter with ultrasonic testing, and the fact i could find a flaw in a 10" thick slab of steel with pinpoint accuracy without having to blast the thing with gamma, has the natural world completely yeilded to the powers of science, not according to my boss who chucks several million a year investigating strange ideas, most lead to nothing, but a better understanding of a natural phenomena can lead to massive profit as you can then capitalise on what your competitors dont know, as they say knowledge is power, in industry knowledge is wealth.
regards
mark

RancherBill
07-03-2011, 02:43 PM
It isn't because it works as claimed but because drilling a hole in the ground where people tend to live has a high probability of finding water.


Agreed.

BTW, I am pro witching.

There are many "anecdotal" stories that it works. I have one of those stories myself. I posted my experiences last time the topic came up.

Here's a challenge for you. Go and conduct a personal experiment. Grab some copper wire, 12 gauge electrical wire for example, make a couple of 'L" shaped pieces with the long side being about 16 or 18". Go out and wander across areas that have buried utilities, power, gas, water etc. See if the wires cross when you go over perpendicular to the utility.

If the phenomenon works on these simple trials you can also find culverts, buried garbage pits, pretty well anything with metal.

I think you might be surprised.

Evan
07-03-2011, 02:54 PM
See if the wires cross when you go over perpendicular to the utility.

But, can you find things when you haven't the slightest idea if there is even anything to find? Not just "I don't know where it is." but, "I don't know if there is anything there at all."

Edit to add:

Untill somebody demonstrates that they can find things like water or metal underground with absolutely no above ground cues to the location and even the existence of something to find then all we have is the demonstration of an entirely different human ability that is well known and documented. That is the ability to make best guesses that are sometimes accurate when presented with incomplete and confusing information.

Unfortunately, anecdotal reports are not evidence.

kendall
07-03-2011, 05:36 PM
Once, was at home and talking with a friend that claimed he could find things by dowsing. I had lost my work glasses a couple days before, searched everywhere and just couldn't find them. He said he could find them with dowsing, so we went to the shop, and made a couple of L's from copper wire. Ended up with him saying they were in the couch, took the cushions off, dug into all the cracks and crevices, and couldn't find them at all. I teased him about it for a while and gave him a lot of good natured crap over it.
About a year later, I got a new couch and when we tipped the old one up to get through the door, I heard change and something else slide around in it. I cut the dust cover off the bottom, and found my old glasses.


As for drilling in clay, if you already have a source of water, you can drill another using it.

This page:
http://www.drillyourownwell.com/index.htm
is very similar to the method I've used in hard pack clay and other 'un-drivable' spots.

Doing some searches while trying to figure out a usable method to get water at my brother's place in Virginia through that red clay and stoney soil he has, I found a few sites that detailed easily built drills designed for use in rocky areas with very limited resources. Can't seem to find them now though

Boucher
07-03-2011, 06:34 PM
If you think it works take a trip to Australia and collect the money.

lazlo
07-03-2011, 07:10 PM
A deceased neighbor was (from what people tell me) able to witch for water using a branched willow stick.

Was he deceased at the time? 'Cause I think ghosts are a lot better at dowsing than live people.

I bet Airsmith is really good at dowsing...

sasquatch
07-03-2011, 07:55 PM
:D :D Fun topic anyway!!!

To answer Evan,s response about there being NO proof it works--"It,s because it,s a mystery,, things beyond what our minds can comprehend,"

I,m sure a number of us have heard old tales or actually knew a famous dowser in the area who,, Yup, not only could find the water but tell us how deep it was,, Like" Yes sir mam,, that there is the water,, right here and i say she,s at 19ft - 20ft by the number of twitches i got on the stick.
And they dig,, and by golly,, yup it was at 20ft, so he was pretty close.:D

Evan
07-03-2011, 11:01 PM
--"It,s because it,s a mystery,, things beyond what our minds can comprehend,"


Sorry, but that isn't an answer or an explanation nor does it excuse the requirement for either. The only reasonable explanation is that very ordinary and explicable processes are taking place. They include such things as selective reporting and memory, subconcious guessing and decision making based on prior knowledge of the circumstances, reasonable choices made based on existing surface evidence and the known location of key objects.

The most important part of the explanation is the common phenomena called mass hysteria manifested in a weakened but still very real form.

The last in particular is essential to the phenomenon. It is the same principle that many preachers take advantage of. Not only is it possible to create a common delusion but it also can extend to actual physical symptoms that have been suggested may occur. It is a form of hypnotism and explains very well why those who do not believe in dowsing also have no "success" or feel no reactions from the instruments.

boslab
07-04-2011, 12:15 AM
i do think theres somthing in this buisness, tenuous though it is, some people are more sensitive to stuff than others, what i dont get though is when i watched this guy on the tele dowsing with a map and a pendulum! whats that about! i can see if you were there that there may be some magnetic effects not by the water but by the fissure its in, like a discontinuity revealed by magnaflux in steel
like http://www.magnaflux.co.uk/magnafluxproduct.html
there the flux changes around the discontinuity, perhaps some humans are 'tuned' different, i know i have felt the effects of a magnetic field, i dont like the area around the drive motors in the rolling mill, i start feeling odd after a while and i'm not alone, transformers can do the same but not as strongly as the rotating field, power workers apparently suffer from a lot of depression, there is even some evidence that power lines cause problems with health, taken reasonably seriously by the government. so matbee, just maybee ther is an underlying phenomina waiting to be found, apparently cells that respond to magnetic fields have been isolated in some birds brains as some navigational thing [i havent sat down and read the text so that may be bollox to get a reasearch grant],
I personally can dowse for coal and water in wales, dig or drill anywhere, the whole bloody island is made of coal floating on a lake of water! i wish i could find some oil!
Can oil be dowsed btw if no then why not i am thinking
mark

J. Randall
07-04-2011, 12:33 AM
When I was a kid there was an old man in our part of Okla. that used to go around dowsing for oil, but I don't know if he ever had much success. I have never tried to witch a water well, but have had some success finding water lines, both plastic and metal. In the early 80's I worked for an oil co., and part of my job was locating our pipelines, and flagging them. I started to believe in dowsing after I and three other guys could not find an 8" steel line in highly mineralized ground, and a Mexican with two brass welding rods pinpointed it for us. It was not for the lack of good equipment, I had a 1300 dollar Metrotech that would even give you the depth. I started playing with it after that, and had some success. My take on dowsing is those that can, do, and those that can't swear it is impossible because they can't scientifically prove it.
James

Evan
07-04-2011, 01:06 AM
there the flux changes around the discontinuity, perhaps some humans are 'tuned' different, i know i have felt the effects of a magnetic field, i dont like the area around the drive motors in the rolling mill, i start feeling odd after a while and i'm not alone, transformers can do the same but not as strongly as the rotating field, power workers apparently suffer from a lot of depression, there is even some evidence that power lines cause problems with health, taken reasonably seriously by the government. so matbee, just maybee ther is an underlying phenomina waiting to be found, apparently cells that respond to magnetic fields have been isolated in some birds brains

Don't confuse electromagnetic fields with electrostatic fields. We can easily detect the effect of the latter but there is no evidence at all that humans can detect magnetic fields even at high levels. The two are manifestations of the same force but they are not the same. Most particularly, magnetic fields fall off with distance according to 3rd power law unlike electrostatic fields that obey 2nd power law. What that means is the magnetic fields diminish exponentially faster with distance than do electric fields.

A magnetic field diminishes so quickly with distance that even at very short distances the magnetic field from even a very strong source is nearly undetectable unless the source is very large, such as the Earth. Humans have no sensory mechanism at all to detect magnetic fields, unlike pigeons which have specialized nasal cells that contain magnetite and are able to detect magnetic orientation in a manner similar to a compass. Humans have no such system.

There is no evidence that links electromagnetic fields to illness or even discomfort in humans unless the fields are exceedingly strong such as the field inside a MRI machine. Even the weakest MRI field is about 20,000 times stronger than the magnetic field of the Earth. In that case it is the blood that serves as the detector. At the level of the Earths field there is no measurable effect using even the most sensitive instruments. Note that we have instruments that can measure magnetic fields in the brain caused by the electrical impulse of a single neuron firing. The sensitivity threshold of a SQUID detector is around 0.0000000001 of the Earth's magnetic field. Humans do not have the ability to sense magnetic fields.

Evan
07-04-2011, 01:12 AM
My take on dowsing is those that can, do, and those that can't swear it is impossible because they can't scientifically prove it.


The problem is that those who believe it works cannot prove it in controlled trials. Once the confounding variables are removed all that is left is the supposed ability to detect water or other materials that are hidden from view under the earth. Nobody has ever demonstrated that such an ability exists.

boslab
07-04-2011, 03:30 AM
yes i seem to have confused the two fields, ES and EM i mean but that was not the point, do we know that dowsong uses ES or EM if all the evidence presented refutes its existance and all the evidence is purely coincidental, i will happily conceed to the fact that if i had to present a scientific case for dowsing it would when subject to peer reviw fail miserably through lack of quantifyable repeatable evidence, there is no doubt that from a scientific point it is nothing more than hocus pocus, akin to clairvoyance, ESP, spirits and ghosts and all that stuff.
I,m still sure that there are however phsical phenomenon out there that have yet to be 'discovered', or quantified, if not then we have reached the end of the scientific enquiry road and need not waste our time looking for anything more as we obveously 'know all that there is to know'.
or is that argument in itself flawed?
should we try to find out, or save our mony for other more worthwhile humanitarian projects like sorting out the worlds disease problems or somthing.
either way an interesting thread if it makes you think, learn and communicate your thoughts to others.
regards
mark

Evan
07-04-2011, 05:37 AM
The earth is a very effective shield for electostatic fields.


or is that argument in itself flawed?


That depends on if you think the "field" of Extra Sensory Perception (ESP) is worth studying. It has been studied to death already and still the results are inconclusive.

boslab
07-04-2011, 07:55 AM
your quite right it has been done to death, in which case it can now be officially dissmissed as nonsense. but i will say in addition that there is nothing other than what is, i personally beleive that there is more to find out, i'm not on about spooks and stuff, i'm on about physical phenomenon, im sure we dont know everything yet.
regards
mark

Rustybolt
07-04-2011, 08:54 AM
Ifany body thinks they can dowse and prove it under controled conditions, there's money in it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi_Educational_Foundation#The_One_Million _Dollar_Paranormal_Challenge


read down for dowsing.


No one has ever collected the prize.

A.K. Boomer
07-04-2011, 09:00 AM
Like I stated earlier - I do not have proof of what the response was about - I have no idea, All I am certain of is that there was no doubt a response - that I am 100% sure of, And it was in no way shape or form related to my geometry of "how" I was holding the rod's as that was a constant (although I did try to counteract a few times without being too obvious) and it was in no way shape or form was related to the geometry of the totally level floor that I was walking over, So for there to be a change from one area to the next and then verified over and over by different approaches one then has to come to the conclusion that something of an external source is causation of the change, and if something of an external source is causation of the change then regardless of whether or not we know what that something is is a point of irrelevancy - the fact of the matter is is that whatever this "phenomenon" is - it's something that can be predicted to be there over and over again and again, even though we may not have a clue as to what we are "predicting" - one has to come to the conclusion that for some reason there is a difference between point A and point B.

This is my experience - and you would have to experience it for yourself to draw this conclusion - Now you have the right to cry out "hogwash" in which I have the right to call you "inexperienced" because if you ever experienced what I have you would not be making a statement like that.

for what its worth i remember the rods I was using were not some crude home built looking things - they were really refined looking and im pretty sure they had duel bearings in each of the handles.
I will never forget the way I had my elbows locked into my sides to prevent any weird kind of wondering of my geometry - I will never forget the way I had my wrists locked - an I will never forget the way I would walk into this area and here that sound of metal to metal crossing over itself - and then Id stop and take a step back and the sound would be there again except this time the rods would start un-crossing - I was so suspect I was looking for a remote controller in the guys hand, I tested it over and over and after I was done I sat down and was speechless... to this day I do not have an explanation for it and that's pretty rare for me as im the type of guy who leaves no stone unturned.

1-800miner
07-04-2011, 10:06 AM
I have a machine called a hydraulic rock splitter.
I break up the boulders or bedrock that is too big for the backhoes or dozers.
New customers always ask for a set price.I never give one,I only work by the hour.
They want to know why,so I ask them how far down does the rock go?
The say they don't know.I reply"Well neither of us have xray vision then,and that is why I charge by the hour"
Just like drilling a well,you never really know until you get to the bottom of it.

TGTool
07-04-2011, 11:30 AM
I have a machine called a hydraulic rock splitter.
I break up the boulders or bedrock that is too big for the backhoes or dozers.
New customers always ask for a set price.I never give one,I only work by the hour.
They want to know why,so I ask them how far down does the rock go?
The say they don't know.I reply"Well neither of us have xray vision then,and that is why I charge by the hour"
Just like drilling a well,you never really know until you get to the bottom of it.

I should have had you along a few years ago on a trip to India. The roads up into the furthest valleys in the Himalayas are a little precarious. They'd be one lane roads here, but somehow they manage to squeeze even busses past one another and you do see the occasional vehicle down on the scree so they don't have 100 percent success at that. The other hazard is rock and landslides. If they can drive over or around them they do until the heavy equipment can arrive from a few miles down the road somewhere.

This is one we waited a couple hours for as the line of backed up traffic wound around the draw over to the other side. The actual river gorge is off a ways to the left and much larger and this is 6x tele to give some scale for the side canyon.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/TGTool/40Landslide.jpg

Somewhere further along on the trip we were again stopped by a large rock on the roadway. There were two or three sledges that had appeared from somewhere, but that was like the proverbial ant looking at an elephant with rape on its mind.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/TGTool/42Landslide.jpg

After a time a large loader arrived from one direction but was unable to lift or move it until finally a dozer also arrived from the other and they were able to push and tip it over the edge into the gorge.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/TGTool/43Landslide.jpg

Just as happy I wasn't around when this went down. That's the old truss bridge across the river down there at the bottom and for scale, the stick in the sand is a power pole, again at all the telephoto I've got.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f244/TGTool/47FormerBridge.jpg

I guess everything's relative and the pucker factor on machining operations just has never seemed quite as bad since.

J. Randall
07-04-2011, 12:30 PM
The problem is that those who believe it works cannot prove it in controlled trials. Once the confounding variables are removed all that is left is the supposed ability to detect water or other materials that are hidden from view under the earth. Nobody has ever demonstrated that such an ability exists.

Pretty much what I said Evan, except for one thing, the supposed ability, is not supposed, it is a fact, provable or not I have seen it, I have done it , and saw other people do it, it is a tool that people in the field use every day, and think nothing about whether it is provable or not.
James

Jaakko Fagerlund
07-04-2011, 01:02 PM
Pretty much what I said Evan, except for one thing, the supposed ability, is not supposed, it is a fact, provable or not I have seen it, I have done it , and saw other people do it, it is a tool that people in the field use every day, and think nothing about whether it is provable or not.
James
Oh the lol of that statement. It is not a fact, as it is not proven. Could you explain why it works in uncontrolled situations ("in the field") but not in controlled/supervised conditions?

Don't hold your breath, I'l answer it: because it is BS, from start to finish. Or do you have some actual evidence that backs up your claims?

Evan
07-04-2011, 02:21 PM
I wouldn't call it BS because it does work sometimes but not for the reasons supposed. I explained why it seems to work above but here it is again.

The only reasonable explanation is that very ordinary and explicable processes are taking place. They include such things as selective reporting and memory, subconcious guessing and decision making based on prior knowledge of the circumstances, reasonable choices made based on existing surface evidence and the known location of key objects.

The most important part of the explanation is the common phenomena called mass hysteria manifested in a weakened but still very real form.

The last in particular is essential to the phenomenon. It is the same principle that many preachers take advantage of. Not only is it possible to create a common delusion but it also can extend to actual physical symptoms that have been suggested may occur. It is a form of hypnotism and explains very well why those who do not believe in dowsing also have no "success" or feel no reactions from the instruments.

I will add to that: Does it always work? I think not. How often does it fail? The tendency is to recall when something succeeds, not when it fails, especially if the failure is unremarkable in nature. The failures in this case are commonly "attributed" to various forms of "interference". Frequently the "interference" is said to be the presence of those who do not believe it will work.

J. Randall
07-05-2011, 12:27 AM
Oh the lol of that statement. It is not a fact, as it is not proven. Could you explain why it works in uncontrolled situations ("in the field") but not in controlled/supervised conditions?

Don't hold your breath, I'l answer it: because it is BS, from start to finish. Or do you have some actual evidence that backs up your claims?

Jaakko, the fact I was talking about was some people have the ability, provable to your satisfaction or not. I have seen it work when the equipment designed to find the metal pipe failed with no explanation except highly mineralized ground, I could not prove that either, but we tried 4 different brands of metal detectors and could not locate it. A Mexican with 2 brass rods found it, and I used his methods to find buried plastic lines with some success. Prove it, no I would not even try, use it if I need to, yes. Call BS and LOL if you want to, you can no more prove it is not possible than I can prove it is.
James

Evan
07-05-2011, 08:42 AM
you can no more prove it is not possible than I can prove it is.


There is a lot of money waiting for anybody that can demonstrate it works. They don't have to explain how, just show that it works. Nobody has been able to do that.

A.K. Boomer
07-05-2011, 08:54 AM
That doesn't disprove anything, Yes it makes it more unlikely in the typical way that we view things by means of logical deductions - but remember - pure logic is the ruin of the spirit :p

Once again I cannot prove what the reaction I experienced was all about but there was indeed a reaction and If someone who is inexperienced in this matter tells me there wasn't then I can and will logically call out BS - I can then follow it up with the comment that they don't know their ass from their elbow.

This discussion is kinda like the "god" discussion - not having proof is not proof at all - and in fact it's impossible to use that as a final conclusion as you cannot disprove an existence of either of these subjects - one can only prove and just because one cannot prove of either does not make either "non-existent" therefore both God and Witching are allot alike... maybe that's why they call it "witching" - as if some other "power" is involved ---- Hogwash?
prove it... ---------- but let me save you the trouble first - You can't...

Forestgnome
07-05-2011, 09:43 AM
Evan's right. Now we need to take a close look at why we're paying scientists' salaries when everything has already been explained that can be explained, and there's nothing new to discover.

lynnl
07-05-2011, 11:25 AM
....It is not a fact, as it is not proven.
...

That's rediculous. Having been proven/or not, has no bearing on whether something is a fact. Perhaps you meant "accepted as fact."

The earth was round (or roughly so) long before that was ever proven.

Jaakko Fagerlund
07-05-2011, 11:41 AM
you can no more prove it is not possible than I can prove it is.
I don't have toprove it is not possible, all I'm saying that there is not even a single evidence that it is possible. Many have offered money for proving they have the ability and many tests have been done on claimed "dowsers" and all of the so called "dowsers" have failed. Wonder why?

Evan
07-05-2011, 01:22 PM
The earth was round (or roughly so) long before that was ever proven.

Only the uneducated ever thought the Earth is flat. No scientist (philosopher) of ancient times thought that. As far back as we have written records the Earth was known to be a sphere. The ancient Egyptians knew it as did the Ancient Greeks.


Evan's right. Now we need to take a close look at why we're paying scientists' salaries when everything has already been explained that can be explained, and there's nothing new to discover.

Your implied argument is fatally flawed. Of course we don't know all there is to know. We do know enough however to rule out the existence of many things that were thought to exist due to ignorance. It does not require total knowledge of all to place boundaries on what may or may not be possible. The corollary is that not all things are possible regardless of the state of our knowledge.

Evan
07-05-2011, 01:30 PM
There is only one way to prove that dowsing works. Form a hypothesis that explains the mechanism. Develop a plan or experiment to test the hypothesis. Perform the experiment and see it it verifies the hypothesis. Develop a theory based on the verification of the hypothesis. The theory should be able to predict why and how dowsing works as well as why it doesn't work when it fails.

Then test the theory in as many ways as possible based on the predictions the theory provides.

Until and unless that is done it remains in the realm of paranormal superstition.

Mcgyver
07-05-2011, 02:23 PM
Prove it, no I would not even try, use it if I need to, yes. Call BS and LOL if you want to, you can no more prove it is not possible than I can prove it is.
James

This is true in the classic sense of proof, if it does not work once is not proof that it will everywhere under every condition. Claiming its not impossible doesn't mean much - I suppose you could sat Ron Hubbards ideas also can't be proven impossible. BUT, a foundation of science is that the theory fits the observations and that there is repeatability in experimentation. Given how many claim to have done/seen it, it seems almost inconceivable someone wouldn't have looked for repeatability - scientifically measuring whether there a force exerted in the stick at this particular spot

Why isn't every University physics department 100% focused on this as it probably unlocks the keys to the universe - because for it to work means there is a hitherto unknown force or at least the amazing manifestation of an existing force. The claim is a magnetic like force emitted from water and sensed by a branch of particular shape - and examples of it working abound. Yet no Nobel hungry scientist is pursuing it? With no science behind it and no repeatability, verifiable experimentation or observations, I think in the extremely unlikely category.

Plus there's the psychology of of the stakeholders, a man digging a well hopes for the shortest distance. Jimbob the dowser wants lots of dowsing work but, but really he's selling hope - hope that the well will as short as can be. The last 10 neighbours hired old Jimbob for their wells, whats the man who wants hope going to do? And its amazing how many think a well taps into some sort of underground river, like you could float down in a raft....can be to far to left or you'll miss it....Jimbob didn't miss the river on the last ten tries :D

Did any of the neighbors dig 50 more wells to confirm Jimbobs site was the best? No one digs more wells than he has to. Sans science and as a commercial activity it might just deserve a chapter in extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of crowds :D

Forestgnome
07-05-2011, 02:26 PM
There is only one way to prove that dowsing works. Form a hypothesis that explains the mechanism. Develop a plan or experiment to test the hypothesis. Perform the experiment and see it it verifies the hypothesis. Develop a theory based on the verification of the hypothesis. The theory should be able to predict why and how dowsing works as well as why it doesn't work when it fails.

Then test the theory in as many ways as possible based on the predictions the theory provides.

Until and unless that is done it remains in the realm of paranormal superstition.
If it can be proven to work, hypothesis or not, it exists. It would be great to know how it works, but as yet there is no good explanation. I know it works, and also know that it is a physical phenomena, not a conjuration of one's state of mind. This is from personal experience. I know there's no way I can convince anyone here through mere words that it works. For the record, I have been a scientific person my entire life, and the dowsing experience has forever altered the way I view traditional science. Now my philosophy is to keep an entirely open mind regarding paranormal phenomena. That's difficult sometimes, because I've never seen a ghost or a UFO. I've always wanted to take up the quest for an explanation of the dowsing phenomena, but have never taken the time. Hearing the naysayers in this thread has given me renewed drive towards proving it exists, and for that, I thank you!

Mcgyver
07-05-2011, 02:43 PM
I know it works, and also know that it is a physical phenomena, not a conjuration of one's state of mind. This is from personal experience. I know there's no way I can convince anyone here through mere words that it works.

That's not necessarily true. Find a spot where you say it works, where the physical phenomena is present. Invite us out the spot. video tape it. Invite physicists. Devise a mechanical means to move the dowsing rod over the spot and record the forces exerted on it. You might be on your way to Stockholm

That the phenomena is so frequently claimed and that if true it would be monumental to science (that there's new/not understood force) seems a insurmountable contradiction. Being both incredible and common place would create a vacuum for physicists et al ....if the claims stood up to scrutiny

Evan
07-05-2011, 03:18 PM
If it can be proven to work, hypothesis or not, it exists.

See my above explanation.


Sans science and as a commercial activity it might just deserve a chapter in extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of crowds

Also see my above explanation (post 64). :D

J. Randall
07-05-2011, 10:33 PM
I can't and won't even attempt to explain it, but I don't believe that it is purely mechanical or depends on a mechanism, I think it depends in the large part on a human ability that some have and some don't, and no one to date has had any explanation for . As for the rewards offered, the only ones I have read about have been set up and totally controlled by the people offering the money. I would be curious if any of those people have actually went to the field with dowsers and watched them work under random conditions, and quantified their results. I also agree that there is a lot of snake oil involved in the water well witching end of it.
James

Evan
07-06-2011, 12:09 AM
I would be curious if any of those people have actually went to the field with dowsers and watched them work under random conditions, and quantified their results

So called "random conditions" makes it impossible to determine what is happening. Read my post 64 again. All of those possibilities must be eliminated to find out if there is anything else worth investigating.

As Mcgyver has stated, if there really was something other than a form of mass hysteria and subconcious decision making going on then the (scientific) world would be beating a path to the doors of famous dowsers.

It HAS been investigated in the field many times and no evidence of anything inexplicable has been found by well designed studies. It is extraordinarily difficult to eliminate confounding factors in a random field trial so the only way to establish with certainty the worth of the claims is to conduct studies under strictly controlled conditions.

Of course that always brings up the objection that such conditions themselves are responsible for the failure to perform since they generate a "negative aura" or some other similar excuse.

Dowsers may very well appear successful in their task some of the time but it isn't because they are using some yet to be discovered/explained mystical force or human ability. It is very easy to explain. A large part of it is the natural tendency for humans to accept nearly any explanation for that which they do not understand. There is also a very large element of gullibility when faced with logical sounding explanations that are scientific nonsense.

As an example, a poll conducted by CNN/Time in 1997 showed that 80% of the US population believes that the US government is hiding knowledge of the existence of extraterrestrial life forms.

1-800miner
07-06-2011, 12:50 AM
The extraterrestials dowse for water and find it every time.God told me that.So there is the proof!:p

Tinkerer
07-06-2011, 01:21 AM
Dowsing does work... I can do it always could even when young. When I purchased my property I was told and the counties well long backed it up that water was not abundant and to get a well with 3 gal a minute would be a find. I dowsed with a willow fork and found an underground stream. I marked each edge or at least where the pull stop... and it was a pull it twisted so hard it tore the bark off the branches. The well driller came in and hit it... water rushed out. They bailed for three day and never went down from it static level. I dowsed it down and across the road. When the Gas company was putting in a high pressure line I told them to look out for it as I felt it came closer to the surface down the way... the Engineer said he had nothing on his Geological Map. At the point it crossed the road they where digging at 10 ft and hit it... filled the trench and put them off their plan for a week. When I went down to see it I looked at the Engineer and said Imagine That! :D

It's a gift as my Gram told it.. ;)

boslab
07-06-2011, 02:16 AM
Ive been involved in science and engineering all my life i guess, i tend to be somewhat cynical of the hocus pocus elements of society, religious cults, tarrot cards, crystal balls ant all that crap.
I see and agree with Evans analysis of the subject of dowsing, but i still have a little reservation in the back of my mind, i must say Mcgyvers comments regarding hope are well thought out and presented and i have to also agree.
Perhaps and only perhaps a combination of factors may be looked at, is it possible then that dowsing is a sham, like say spiritualism which is complete nonsese.
Having said that inadvertantly those practicing dowsing, in an effort to keep the mystiqe alive are concentrating hard on the little thing like the areas geology, conditions and so on so that they maintain the illusion that the are in some way 'special' and 'gifted' exactly in the same way a clairvoyant likes to feel 'special'
Inadvertantly the extra homework/attention by the dowser increases the probability of hitting water, that would give the edge as it were.
What i'm trying to do is to understand the mechanics of this dowsing buisness, having considered all the evidence the ego of the dowser was the only bit i had not thought of.
regards
mark

tdmidget
07-06-2011, 02:19 AM
Of course it works! It works because you can find water almost anywhere if you drill deep enough. Of course it may not be potable but it's water. Even here in Tucson, Arizona, where we have had less than 8 inches of rain per year for eight years water can be found almost anywhere at less than 500 feet and that is with the water table pumped down 250 feet. A prospective copper mine south of town is hitting it at 28-31 feet. So I should go into the biz, huh?

A.K. Boomer
07-06-2011, 07:18 AM
Once again all I can comment on is due to experience - but it does not prove or disprove dowsing - yet I have to be clear - it was a very strong and extremely consistent reaction and one that was in no way shape or form induced by me but had to do with the "change" of the surrounding area --- and it had absolutely ZERO to do with anything called or related to "Hope" - hope did not even enter the equation unless you could call it "un-hope" as after a few passes I was then trying to counteract the "units" to prove the guy wrong and I couldn't without being obvious.

My only real explanation on the other side of the coin if it was a hoax would be that the unit's were radio controlled but he would have had to hire someone else (who might have been watching by hidden camera):rolleyes: to do the controlling because I was so skeptical that I actually covered the factor of watching what he was doing when the "change" was happening, although I suppose he could have had some kind of a "bite valve" in his mouth that sent a signal to a base transmitter somewhere else in the building and then controlled some kind of micro-servo's inside the unit's handles - now - do you see how insane this is starting to sound on the flip side?

That's how sure I am of the "reaction", the fact that this guy was hunting for a water main in his cement floor laundry machine building may or may not have been the reason for the "reaction" - I don't know - I don't know how it turned out for him, I was just blown away that there could be any kind of a reaction to anything in the first place let alone one that had such consistent/accurate and unmistakable gusto ... and to tell you the absolute truth I would have to sum up the way I felt as being about half in shock and half frustrated...

I have to add - I don't have an axe to grind with people who don't believe as I don't know if I do, I also can't disprove others who do for reasons iv stated earlier - Im totally un-biased and All I can report on is my experience and along with my experience is since then iv tried to build my own just out of copper 12 gauge wire (in fact the last time this topic got brought up) and have to admit have not given them much of a chance but they just feel "dead" to me - I have not tried much but have never had any kind of a reaction with them of any kind, that's just taking like one pass in my backyard or something - and there was hope involved but it was more like hoping the neighbors weren't watching...

Evan
07-06-2011, 09:04 AM
Once again all I can comment on is due to experience - but it does not prove or disprove dowsing - yet I have to be clear - it was a very strong and extremely consistent reaction and one that was in no way shape or form induced by me but had to do with the "change" of the surrounding area ---


You have no way of knowing that.

Forestgnome
07-06-2011, 09:38 AM
You have no way of knowing that.
If I'm interpreting you correctly, you're stating that his experience is purely subjective? That's the old objective vs. subjective B.S. arguement that scientists have used forever. The fact is, ALL research that's ever been done has been a subjective experience if you examine it thoroughly. Okay, so you feel a coin in your hand, but you're not allowed to look at it. Can you say you have a coin in your hand? Of course you can! It's called using your senses, and it's no more or less subjective than a machinist observing the scale on a vernier.

krutch
07-06-2011, 10:00 AM
[QUOTE=brian Rupnow]Evan---My dad witched for water all over the area I grew up in, and was very succesfull at it. People would come from miles away to get dad to go to wherever they were going to build a new house and have him witch (some call it "douse") for water. He used a forked stick, cut from a young tree that had a pit bearing fruit. (as in peach, not apple or pear.) It never worked for me, and I always kind of scoffed at it. QUOTE]

My dad did the same at the acerage he bought in the early '60's. The first well he 'dug', he used a post auger by hand. I don't know how deep he went to hit water, but I do remember he had a lot of pipe screwed together to auger deep. He got water there! We eventually let that well close-up.
When he built the house, he 'witched' for a well site and got good water. All the wells around our area are sulfur tinted but ours isn't. We do have gas in the water. When a jug is filled and allowed to settle, a match will lite the gas when the lid is opened. Same at the faucets in the house.
Point is witching works. At least for some people.

A.K. Boomer
07-06-2011, 10:16 AM
You have no way of knowing that.


Like I stated Evan - elbows locked into my side and wrist locked and a totally level floor - and over a dozen attempts - so Im about as certain about it as you are about gravity or magnetism.

I was using isometrics to lock my arms and wrist joints almost solid - try it - its very effective, the only real variable was geographical so you tell me, this wasn't some "weak" kind of reaction either - when I got into the area a half of step would change the rods a good 30 degree's towards each other almost perfectly - a half step back would uncross them, a full step and they were closer to facing each other - over and over and over again and from the opposite direction - You tell me then? Im listening - really.

TGTool
07-06-2011, 11:05 AM
All the wells around our area are sulfur tinted but ours isn't. We do have gas in the water. When a jug is filled and allowed to settle, a match will lite the gas when the lid is opened. Same at the faucets in the house.


Lighting farts of the water sprites? Now there's a new esoteric sport! :D

lynnl
07-06-2011, 11:19 AM
...
As far back as we have written records the Earth was known to be a sphere. The ancient Egyptians knew it as did the Ancient Greeks.
...


Had they proven it? Had they subjected that idea to all the rigors of the scientific method? :)

Rustybolt
07-06-2011, 11:59 AM
Yeah. The Egyptians did it by measuring the angle of an a shadow cast by an obelisk in the city of Thebes against a shadow cast by an obelisk in a city 500 miles away. At the same time of day. From the difference of the angles they deduced that the earth was round.
They were technically backward, not intellectually backward.

Jaakko Fagerlund
07-06-2011, 12:17 PM
Point is witching works. At least for some people.
God exists, because why would millions believe in it otherwise?

Subjective BS this dowsing/witching.


The fact is, ALL research that's ever been done has been a subjective experience if you examine it thoroughly.
Sure, but the research has DATA and most importantly, REPEATABLE tests that anyone can perform and then check the results and compare them. What about all the dowsers, where's their test cases and results so that anyone can try and compare? Haven't seen.

If dowsing works, then your rods/sticks should go like crazy when by a lake or sea. Or do they only work "in the right spot".

Evan
07-06-2011, 12:26 PM
It's called using your senses, and it's no more or less subjective than a machinist observing the scale on a vernier.


Squares A and B are the same colour.

http://ixian.ca/pics6/illusion.gif

Nothing is easier to fool than the human brain. You do it to yourself all the time. True objectivity is impossible without the use of measurements that are independent of the observer.

Evan
07-06-2011, 12:31 PM
You tell me then? Im listening - really.

You tell me why mining companies spend so much money flying airplanes around with magnetometers and then drilling grids of holes to find out what is below the surface. Tell me why surface penetrating radar was developed to finds things like buried utility pipes and tell me why people spend tens of thousands of dollars for such machines.


I will save you the trouble. It's because those methods actually work.

Forestgnome
07-06-2011, 01:38 PM
When I need to dig up a pipe, I grab my coat hanger wires first. That's because I don't like digging, and it works!

Evan
07-06-2011, 02:35 PM
I use a map.

A.K. Boomer
07-06-2011, 03:23 PM
You tell me why mining companies spend so much money flying airplanes around with magnetometers and then drilling grids of holes to find out what is below the surface. Tell me why surface penetrating radar was developed to finds things like buried utility pipes and tell me why people spend tens of thousands of dollars for such machines.


I will save you the trouble. It's because those methods actually work.


Im not disputing that - and im not claiming that the reaction I was experiencing had anything to do with a pipe or water or minerals - im saying I don't know - but I am saying I do know for sure about the reaction, that I am 100% sure of, and to actually stop in the middle of it and then rotate my wrists like a couple of swash plates to try to get the rods back to their normal position and not have barely any effect at all was beyond my explanation.

It's one of those things that you would never subject yourself to talking about unless you had some kind of experience with it and I did, I ran it through a bunch of very good deductive reasoning tests and my conclusion is that even though I don't know what it is there was something effecting the rods and it had to do with geographical location.

Forestgnome
07-06-2011, 05:05 PM
I use a map.
For me, making a map would be a waste of time.:D

Mcgyver
07-06-2011, 05:21 PM
When I need to dig up a pipe, I grab my coat hanger wires first. That's because I don't like digging, and it works!

you probably live in one of those areas with so many pipes you hit one no matter where you dig

HWooldridge
07-06-2011, 06:24 PM
So I picked up a older pitcher pump from a yard sale and rebuilt it and will be giving it to my mother because she likes stuff like that. I would like to make it functional as well so I picked up a 1.25" point and 10' of pipe to start off. Now the problem I have is the area we live in is pretty much all rock from 3' to 100' down. I have been using a small stainless rod about 12 feet long to probe the ground to find whatever spots I can that I will miss the rocks and get at least 12' in. 3 days of probing I found 2 spots and both spots when I pulled the rod up the end looks like it was in dry clay. That brings up my next question, is there a way to check for water first before pounding the point in? Any tips to make the point go in easier?

I watched a few different videos and these two are interesting to me. Comments on these techniques as well?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGq0ETzZP0E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLgy8KPXme4

Wow, this one really took off like a bottle rocket...I didn't read every entry but have a few comments.

First, a hand pump probably won't draw much head height - it will depend on overall pump condition but I'd expect no more than 20-30 feet. You might hit water at that depth but I'd recommend you talk to local well drillers and see what they say about typical depths in your area. Our irrigation well is 80 feet deep but the water starts around 50 feet. I'm not certain of the pump's flow rate but we've never been able to pump it down in a 4" casing. The water is potable but doesn't taste too good (has some sulfur).

I have never heard of anyone around here using a driven point with any success but we have a lot of clay and caliche - your area may yield better results.

vpt
07-06-2011, 07:42 PM
Our well about 100 yards from where I want to put the pitcher pump has water on average about 15-20 feet down. From my probing with a small rod I have found clay at about 10 feet down everywhere. Thats why I was thinking of trying that water drilling the hole first and then sticking in the point.

HWooldridge
07-06-2011, 08:32 PM
Our well about 100 yards from where I want to put the pitcher pump has water on average about 15-20 feet down. From my probing with a small rod I have found clay at about 10 feet down everywhere. Thats why I was thinking of trying that water drilling the hole first and then sticking in the point.

I suspect the clay will give some fits but you might get lucky and get some water transfer into the casing. If it were me and I was trying to do the job on a budget, I'd build a small pile driver to push it to the depths you are aiming for. A bigger casing would be better so maybe consider 2" galvanized pipe with a reducer for the point. You could also drill several holes in the pipe sides to augment flow.

J. Randall
07-06-2011, 11:06 PM
Squares A and B are the same colour.

http://ixian.ca/pics6/illusion.gif

Nothing is easier to fool than the human brain. You do it to yourself all the time. True objectivity is impossible without the use of measurements that are independent of the observer.

Evan, are you saying that squares A and B should not look like the same color to our eyes, or am I misunderstanding something? They look exactly the same color to me.
James

lynnl
07-07-2011, 12:07 AM
Looks artificially contrived to me.

Square B, being in the shadow of the cylinder, should be darker than A, just as the portions of the dark squares resting in the shadow are darker. But it isn't, it's lighter than A.

Assuming of course the checker board squares are of only two colors, or shades.

A.K. Boomer
07-07-2011, 12:16 AM
Its actually a very good example of how the brain "see's" and although it did not fool J.R. it did trick you as both A and B are the exact same color.

Even though B is in the shadow it is the lighter square color on the chessboard and its an exact match to the inherently darker square of A.

Tear out two holes in a piece of paper that are the same distance from A and B and you will see that the colors are an exact match;)

lynnl
07-07-2011, 12:22 AM
No, I think B is a lighter shade of green than A.

A.K. Boomer
07-07-2011, 12:25 AM
Green? Really? no wonder were having trouble:p

lynnl
07-07-2011, 12:30 AM
:D:D just kidding.