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View Full Version : Update; Ford 6.0 hpop fix (continued)



A.K. Boomer
07-07-2011, 10:13 PM
Alright, well to make a long story a little shorter the plug that popped out of the pump was not the disease but more or less a symptom, as stated in my last post I built a plug and press fitted it into the open bore where the other plug blew out, installed the pump and although slightly better the truck would only idle when cold.

here's the pic of the plug I replaced - its on the intake side of the pump - the plug is on top and between the two top bolt holes and blends into the pump casting but you can see it, below is the open port for the intake from the regular pressure feed of the low pressure oil pump. (has a yellow circle around it)

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r249/AK_Boomer/DSC02054-1.jpg

Now, after replacing the plug and finding out that the engine still had the same problem I focused on the IPR valve and the CPS unit and the HpoPump and pressures and potential leaks of all the seals and O-rings that this beauty has to offer , building special fittings to pressure test the system and on and on - the verdict was narrowed down to only one thing left - the HPOP

So I tore into it and what I found amazed me, the swash plate that is supposed to be stationary inside the pump base had rotated - it not only rotated - it spun like a mad dog - it was when it was spinning that it actually turned the intake side of the pump into the pressure side and visa versa - And that my friends is what popped out the low pressure plug - the hpop worked in reverse direction and tried to force high pressure oil back into the low pressure oil pump - which actually would have been just fine due to the pressure relief taking up the slack ---- but - except for the fact that there is an anti-drain back check valve inbetween the two pumps - ouch... total gridlock and something had to give as now the hpop was without the aid of the computer controlled pressure censors and IPR (injection pressure regulator)
below is a pick of the spun swash plate mount insert, the only thing I can figure that Ford was doing was using a very mild press fit to keep it in its place - there was nothing else, and when I say mild I mean tap it out gently with a rubber mallet mild... very poor engineering, you can see the gall marks where the insert spun.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r249/AK_Boomer/DSC02056.jpg

When the insert spins it then changes its high/low relationship of the stationary offset to the pump bases stationary intake and pressure ports inside the housing - this is a catastrophic failure of pressure timing and can result in total hydraulic gridlock,
Pic down below is the intake and pressure ports of pump, intake at bottom and a constant elongated slot.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r249/AK_Boomer/DSC02058.jpg

Black_Moons
07-07-2011, 10:18 PM
Thanks for the update, very intresting failure mode indeed! It takes some serious fail for something to not only stop doing what it should do, but to do the exact opposite of what it should do :)

A.K. Boomer
07-07-2011, 10:34 PM
Now that I knew what happened I had to figure out the rotation of the pump (without the truck engine as I had the pump at home 15 miles away from truck)
so that I could figure out the proper position of the stationary swash plate in its relationship to the pump housing, i did this by looking at the pumps gear teeth and analyzing the wear patterns on the driven side of the gear - this told me the rotation of the pump,

I then set up the pump right where I wanted it - punched in the radius between the two pieces in the bolt hole calc. and deducted slightly for the curvature of the od/id of the parts so I could land my .187" dowels directly in the middle of the sheer point,
dialed in for 3 holes and went to town...

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r249/AK_Boomer/DSC02062.jpg


dowels were .450" long and will break the casing before swash plate insert ever spins again,

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r249/AK_Boomer/DSC02066.jpg

installed pump - installed turbo and all connections and fired that steaming pile of crap up and took it out for some hefty abuse just to sooth my soul a little - have to admit the lil piggy ran like a stripped assed ape...:D

By the way - ford wants over 700 for the pump and a "real" upgrade aftermarket one is over a grand...

GKman
07-08-2011, 05:09 PM
Thanx for the informative post. I got onboard late. Is the the diesel injector pump or lube oil pump and what is the working pressure?

A.K. Boomer
07-08-2011, 06:32 PM
GKman - its not a lube pump or a direct diesel injector pump - its a hpop (high pressure oil pump) that ends up being the workhorse for the diesel fuel injection - on a 7 to 1 ratio (oil pressure has a 7 times advantage over the fuel that's being injected)

The hpop runs in the range anywhere from around 500psi to 4,000 psi and can vary some depending on the year and engine design...

Don Young
07-09-2011, 09:21 PM
Congratulations on a well thought out job of troubleshooting, failure analysis and repair. That type of failure where the symptoms seem to not make sense or lead to a clearcut cause has always intrigued me. I also like to repair 'Not Repairable' components and I really like your solution.

A.K. Boomer
07-10-2011, 09:58 AM
Thanks Don - it is great to be able to go into certain components and fix them rather than end up a predicted statistic of some company's parts sales chart, I do everything I can to upset that balance :p I draw the line on going into something if it's got one of those triple propeller blade radioactive sticker symbols on it, then I wont go into it...

This job did not go easy as it had to be done twice - thought I had it the first time just replacing the blown out plug.

That being said - The Fat lady really don't sing on a job like this till the pumps done its job for five or ten years,
There's also the realization of taking the "cause and effect" thinking even a step further - for instance - maybe a bad CPS (control pressure sensor) sent a bogus signal to the ECM (electronic control module) that then sent an 85% (the maximum) duty cycle to the IPR valve (injection pressure regulator) that closed it down and caused pressures to skyrocket cuz the engine was at high RPM and this put the pump under extreme pressure loads and therefore swash plate under extreme torsional loads causing it to spin and change its pumping direction to then put high pressure on the low pressure side that then caused the pumps plug (that is only really there for cross drilling during the manufacturing process) to pop out like a cork in a bottle of bubbly. (glad I didn't have to say that in one breath)

If something like this was the case then iv totally changed the dynamics of how its going to handle it next time and am told that there are extreme pressure relieve valves in the heads that will take over (as long as the pump keeps pumping in the right direction - which it should).

This isn't a typical Job - this is one of my bro's trucks that's in his work fleet - he has 2 basically trouble free Dodges and 1 ford that has given us fits from almost day one,
It took both me and him putting our diagnostic heads together on this one because we sent it to the dealer and they started replacing VERY expensive parts at my bro's expense with no improvement so we pulled the truck from them.
It's jobs like this that make my mill worth its weight in silver - how can you justify not having one when just one simple job saves about 1/3 of the value that the mill costs in the first place,
Sometimes it just sits in the basement for a month or two doing nothing but when you need it you have it and that's what its all about.

saltmine
07-10-2011, 10:55 AM
It's good to see that some of the guys here take a logical approach to a problem, these days. Unfortunately, in the automotive industry, fewer and fewer people are available or even interested in making something work properly, much less better. Ford has been a leader in "leave it alone, nobody will notice" engineering for a long time. When I worked in the fleet shop, I had over 50 Ford Crown Victoria cruisers. Ford sent up a bunch of plastic covers to put over the bolts and sharp protrusions on each car's differential...so the fuel tank wouldn't be ripped open in a rear-end crash.
"Putting a band-aide on a sucking chest wound" was one description I heard that seemed appropriate. But, I soon found out that Ford had been using the same mounting location and design since 1967 on their larger sedans, and of course, the infamous Pinto. When the last one rolls off the assembly line, next year, it will still have the poorly designed and protected fuel tank, hanging on the front face of the trunk floor, behind the car's differential.
Thousands of people have been killed, usually burned to death over the years. Ford Corporate even tried to cover it up by refusing to acknowledge the problem in the '70's. But, a Corporate memo got out, and was publicized.
The "Let 'em Burn" memo. Ford's accountants had done a cost and effect study, and came to the conclusion that it would be cheaper to offer a cheap "fix" and pay off all of the Pinto lawsuits that the families of the victims would file, than it would cost to properly redesign the car's fuel tank mounting and make the car safer. Nothing was said about the Galaxy or the LTD that also had the same mountings. Ford eventually stopped manufacturing the Pinto. The Explorer fiasco was another Ford Corporate disaster. A factory engineer told Corporate that the rear suspension design of the Explorer poorly designed, and placed the vehicle's "roll center" too high up in the body. The engineer was promptly slapped down, reassigned, and told to keep his mouth shut. Once the prototypes were on the track, being tested, they discovered the shock absorbers were mounted at too severe an angle, making for a harsh ride, and poor stability. The dampening had to be set high to prevent the high "roll center" from making the truck sway like a drunken sailor when driving. Exactly as the Ford engineer had predicted. Instead of redesigning the rear suspension, Ford had the production models re-placarded to show lower tire pressures(24 psi) in the rear to cancel some of the ride harshness. Firestone Tire & Rubber, a supplier of tires for Ford since the early days, was caught in the middle.
Lowered tire pressure caused the Firestone Wilderness radials to heat up and separate. The casing on many of the tires would then come off, wrapping around the spring and axle, causing the Explorer to flip over, on the highway. Ford blamed the tires, Firestone blamed the vehicle design and Ford's recommendation to use reduced tire pressures. Ford issued a campaign to replace all of the "defective tires" on the Explorers...but cleverly added the correct tire inflation pressures in the instructions when installing the replacement tires (which were NOT Firestone). Not admitting guilt or error, Ford proceeded to redesign the rear suspension no less than six times, before they, more or less, got it right.
Ford did make the "top of the list" with the Explorer, though. When the Government initiated the "Cash for Clunkers" program, the single most vehicle traded in was the infamous Ford Explorer.

Thruthefence
07-10-2011, 01:23 PM
Kinda makes you wonder how Ford blunders along, making a profit, while the other guys get taken over by the Guv'mt?

From you posting, and I believe it's accurate, the engineers were overridden by the bean counters.

Willy
07-10-2011, 01:39 PM
Very nice diagnosis and analytical process AK. As the others have already said, you are to be commended in not only the the process of finding the fault but in your approach in repairing what would otherwise would just be replaced in any other shop.

This in my way of thinking at least is the true definition of a mechanic, someone that actually analysis a problem and repairs it. In stark contrast most of todays "technicians" are just parts replacers.

Here's a couple of attaboys thrown your way, well done!

Willy
07-10-2011, 02:03 PM
Saltmine, do you know what the definition of a troll is don't you?

"One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument."

I notice you like to editorialize a lot about what is wrong with the automotive industry....always from the eyes of someone that hates Ford and Chrysler and shows blind admiration only toward GM.
You unfortunately always take advantage of high-jacking someone else's thread. This is the second time you've done so on A.K.'s time.

As a reminder, look at your far fetched dribble and total misinformation of a few days ago in post #17 (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=48700&page=2)of A.K.'s previous thread.

If you like please feel free to start a thread of your own with all of your BS in one pile so that I can hand you your ass on a platter there.

In the mean time stick with what you know best...fixing broken Chevys.

Black_Moons
07-10-2011, 03:00 PM
Nice fix! I love the fixes that not only fix it, But make damn sure it STAYS fixed.

A.K. Boomer
07-10-2011, 05:04 PM
Thanks again you guys - but there's a few ford hpop guru's out there reading this that are saying to themselves "I can't believe that poor slob replaced that plug and then thought he was finished the first time" lol

Anyways this thing was a crash course learning curve for me because as everyone knows im basically Japanese repair, and the pump was kind of tricky cuz after spinning its swash plate it came to rest (still under a little tension) in a position that was actually very close to working properly and in fact you can see the alignment hole in the pic of the pump mounted in the vise as there is a hole drilled through the end base of the swash plate and that hole is supposed to be @ 9:00 and when I tore the pump down the hole was @ 10:30,
close but no bwandanna... but close enough to screw me over for awhile.

There was also the fact that the pumps core charge is $350.00 and my bro said that it may not go back together real easy (wonder how he knew that? hmm) if we need to use it for a core plus they may not take it if its modified, so both of us were a little stand-off-ish at first.
He was right about it not wanting to go together real easy as there is no easy typical way to assemble it because the cylinder "revolver" with all the pistons will not align straight with the swash plate housing cuz it just wants to cock way over to one side and it's impossible to get together that way - the solution was about 1/10th of a drop of super glue on the shortest (most compressed) piston and hold the position till the glue sets then dowse everything with assembly lube and stab it together real quick - buckle it up and then work it back and forth by hand till the glue lets go and your ready to rumble...

saltmine
07-10-2011, 06:38 PM
And again we have the pot calling the kettle black...Willy.

You've just unveiled your own prejudice against GM.

Unfortunately, all of my "drivel" is cold hard facts....sometimes the truth hurts, Willy.

My editorializing is based on many years of personal experience and backed up by an enormous number of professionals, still working in the industry.

These professionals include mechanics, service managers, garage owners, lawyers, and, in many cases, owners of the vehicles themselves.

If you want to challenge me (somebody always does), lets have some real facts instead of trying to insult me with your inbred ignorance.

Bring it on, Squirrelbait.

captfatboy
01-31-2014, 11:47 AM
Very nice diagnosis and analytical process AK. As the others have already said, you are to be commended in not only the the process of finding the fault but in your approach in repairing what would otherwise would just be replaced in any other shop.

This in my way of thinking at least is the true definition of a mechanic, someone that actually analysis a problem and repairs it. In stark contrast most of todays "technicians" are just parts replacers.

Here's a couple of attaboys thrown your way, well done!


Agreed commons sense is power

Ak not to redirect your tread but I sent you a pm over this subject got a whine I believe coming from the hpop
Not the assesories.. can you guess at what the whine maybe ...
Ie check valves,,ipr,,,,which was replaced in nov..man this is bugging me

A.K. Boomer
01-31-2014, 12:34 PM
Capt, make sure your running the proper recommended lubrication for that beast,,, lot's of anti-foam ingredients to deal with using and engines lubrication system as a pressure platform for the injectors,,,

I also know the low pressure oil pumps pickup tube and fitting or whatever could be suspect - the hypop also has intake fittings that go bad as it's a type of swivel system that uses o-rings and such,,, this is all going off of memory and they are not my cup of tea at all, for probably better details and info I would think Willy is your man on this one..,.

Side note; this is a timely rehashing of this post, that same truck has been plagued with all kinds of other problems including a suspected electrical shutdown of the injectors even after the Ficums been replaced,
along with that was a low cylinder when cranking, you could here the extra burden of actually losing compression and not gaining the rebound effect,,,
so - bro gets a great diagnostic tool to try and read a bunch of advanced engine functions, we plug it in and are running the engine looking at all the info, revving a little to check out other functions, im at about 2.400 rpms then all the sudden rat-tat-tat bam - clunk clunk gheehhh erp...

She pumps a connecting rod right through the block,,, bro was standing right outside and luckily was not hit by any shrapnel -------- best we can conclude without a teardown is a broken valve spring or something of the like - then the keepers and retainer let go and the engine tried to compress it's own valve, I hate the 6.0's so bad,,, truck will most likely be going for scrap after we pull the bins and yank some parts, nice body too, it's just nobody wants them because they are all junk...

C_lazy_F_Guns
01-31-2014, 02:51 PM
Great fix and great post!

I have two 7.3s and a Cummings here. I had the HPOP fail on the wife’s Excursion last winter. I had it out and spent hours trying to find an exploded view or anything about the inside of it but found almost nothing. Not wanting to go in blind and possibly kill the substantial core value I chickened out and shelled out the big bucks for a good replacement. Next time I’m operating!


BTW the HPOP isn’t Ford design it’s IH Navastar design that came with the motor. I have a love/hate relationship with these fuel systems, they work great but every so often they pump $140 of synthetic oil out on the ground over a $4 O-ring or something.

captfatboy
01-31-2014, 05:41 PM
Ok thanks guys I have been running mobile 1 syn, it's sounds like a lot of guys are running the
5w40 or 50 anyway be for I had always run ford 15w40 I don't know... I do run a boss gage on it constantly ...anyways thanks
Lee
ford
2004. 6.0

vpt
01-31-2014, 06:16 PM
Excellent stuff AK! Thanks very much for sharing! I am just finishing assembling my 6.0 to go back in after a lifter failure. Fun motors these things are!

CarlByrns
01-31-2014, 08:43 PM
Nice fix.

The pump is just like the hydraulic pumps (and motors) used on ag and turf equipment. The one thing that bothers me is that it looks like you didn't index the plungers and the cylinder block- that might bite you in the rear as the plungers are lapped in. In general, you can't buy just the plungers or the cylinder block- you have to get the entire rotating assembly (if you're lucky) or the whole pump (if you're not).

I'll bet the swashplate is supposed to be a interference fit and there is a tolerance stack issue here.

A.K. Boomer
01-31-2014, 09:10 PM
Nice fix.

The pump is just like the hydraulic pumps (and motors) used on ag and turf equipment. The one thing that bothers me is that it looks like you didn't index the plungers and the cylinder block- that might bite you in the rear as the plungers are lapped in. In general, you can't buy just the plungers or the cylinder block- you have to get the entire rotating assembly (if you're lucky) or the whole pump (if you're not).

Carlb, good info, had no idea they were that critical, what might have saved me was the pump was original and had well over 150,000 miles on it so at least no seizures - as far as any extra fluid getting by no worries as there's plenty more where that came from... lots of overkill in these systems,,, pump worked fine for over 2 1/2 years of intermittent use (due to other 6.0 issues)






I'll bet the swashplate is supposed to be a interference fit and there is a tolerance stack issue here.

you can say that again, the "tolerance stack issue" was when we initially gave the dealer a shot at fixing the truck,,
im about 100% sure in their testing they "command closed" the IPR at RPM and that's what spun the swash plate - they then must have kept cranking till the plate aligned half assed and the thing started - then they shipped it back to us after charging my bro 2 grand and also replacing a perfectly good ficum... and then the truck really ran like total crap due to poor pump output,,, that's when everything fell into my lap...

A.K. Boomer
01-31-2014, 09:26 PM
Ok thanks guys I have been running mobile 1 syn, it's sounds like a lot of guys are running the
5w40 or 50 anyway be for I had always run ford 15w40 I don't know... I do run a boss gage on it constantly ...anyways thanks
Lee
ford
2004. 6.0

Capt, sorry not much help - but as jacked up as these systems are they are also kinda basic, it's just that they are stacking one system on top of another and yet on top of another to make things work,,,

sooooooooo - with what you are describing and the little time iv spent with these - if you are experiencing what sounds like air in the system make sure your on the right diet of motor oil, then cover intake pump leaks - you don't have to worry about the high pressure side as that will just be a pure fluid leak if the intake side is sealed,,, unless it's massive and causing foaming in the pickup side,,,

and last but not least - now that were talking about it im sure a spun pump swash plate could do funny things in the form of cavitation and such - but if your pumps mis-aligned to any degree at all you should be noticing some funny performance issues... good luck dude - you got a 6.0 and your going to need it, im done...

michigan doug
01-31-2014, 09:58 PM
Excellent job.

You should give the Ford guys a visit and offer to act as a consultant for when they don't have the first clue.

You consult at $100 an hour.

Carry on,

doug

captfatboy
02-01-2014, 01:20 AM
Lol
Very good advise and I really thank you for giving me something to considered..ie air in the system
I guess I'm built a little differently I kinda enjoy these challenges

Thanks agin gentlemen I hope that sometime I may return the favor
God speed
Lee