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View Full Version : Price of the "new" South Bend 10K



SGW
07-13-2011, 09:52 AM
I'm not sure if a price was ever posted the first time the "new" 10K was discussed. At any rate, it's for sale by Penn Tool: http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/products.cfm?categoryID=9260

Price for the lathe is $4,695. The stand is $1,350.

Assuming it's of the quality claimed, that seems reasonably fair to me.

gwilson
07-13-2011, 10:09 AM
Price jumps to $6616.15 by the time you buy the accessories,which,except for the stand,are normally included in any other ASIAN made lathe. Running on the name??

Why is Penn selling Grizzly stuff?

Dr Stan
07-13-2011, 11:10 AM
Price jumps to $6616.15 by the time you buy the accessories,which,except for the stand,are normally included in any other ASIAN made lathe. Running on the name??

Why is Penn selling Grizzly stuff?

Yes, running on the name just like Vice Grip, Rubbermaid, Dell, Apple, and numerous other products that established a reputation as a well made American product.


Q: Why is Penn selling Grizzly stuff?

A: Money

lazlo
07-13-2011, 11:14 AM
Looks like PapaGrizzly may be selling Myfords soon too. Need to order a new batch of stickers! :p

Arthur.Marks
07-13-2011, 11:40 AM
South Bend Lathe Co. may have the same owner as Grizzly Industrial, but the business model is not the same. SBLathe has dealer mark-up rather than direct sales. Every indication is that SBLathe wishes to include multiple dealers. Of course, the first on board being Grizzly is unsurprising. From what I see, other dealers are slow to sign up. Penn Tool joins Blue Ridge Machinery as the only other dealers I have noticed so far. That is also unsurprising---there is little that Penn Tool stocks as far as I can tell. There is no risk in cataloging an item that you sell drop-ship from the wholesaler, Woodstock Int'l.

Last I heard, 10k's were due to arrive Stateside and be ready to ship June 30th. I wonder if that is true or has been pushed back once again? Or was it May 31st? I can't remember now...

gwilson
07-13-2011, 11:48 AM
Arthur, are you saying Grizzly did not develop this new SB lathe? They did buy out the name and spent a lot of time getting the new SB going. They did the developmental work.

Arthur.Marks
07-13-2011, 01:48 PM
"Grizzly" did not. The owner of Grizzly bought the name. Legally, Grizzly Industrial and South Bend Lathe are two distinct, separate companies.

Alistair Hosie
07-13-2011, 02:33 PM
For a new southbend it is surprisingly cheap,in my opinion.Now maybe the Chinese business model at last has made southbend etc adopt a new pricig policy whereby machines are built to sell. Alistair

gwilson
07-13-2011, 03:03 PM
South Bend IS Asian made. If Pappa Grizzly doesn't own the company,he definitely took full credit for it on another forum some time ago.

madwilliamflint
07-13-2011, 03:12 PM
That sure is juicy lookin'. I might haveta needs me one of them next year.

Dr Stan
07-13-2011, 03:20 PM
"Grizzly" did not. The owner of Grizzly bought the name. Legally, Grizzly Industrial and South Bend Lathe are two distinct, separate companies.

Yes technically they are separate companies. However they have the same owner and "Papa Griz" is simply using a different business model to increase distribution of the SB products.

What I do not like is the purchase of a well established American brand and then off shoring the manufacturing of the product whether it is SB, Vice Grip, Dell, Apple or any other company. Do the owners have the "right" to do so, under the current system the answer is yes. However, the fact that the companies established brand recognition as an American company has value that can be measured in dollars and cents. The same is true for other products made in other countries.

If I bought a Jag it better be English.

If I bought a Emco Maier it better be Austrian.

If I bought a Swan lager or a Fosters it better be Australian and so on.

gwilson
07-13-2011, 03:29 PM
If they were going to copy the old SB,I do wish they hadn't messed up the looks of the original tailstock and carriage apron. I have a keen sense of design,and that really bugs me. There was a certain "rightness" about the original SB. Probably because they had a better appreciation for aesthetics in the old days.

goose
07-13-2011, 03:31 PM
Comes in net weight under 800 lbs with stand. Alot of $$ for an entry level manual lathe. You can do better value wise with purchasing a used manual lathe 13 to 14 inch swing.
The specs are impressive, and it looks like a quality machine, but it's kind of like spending alot of cash on the last/best 35mm film camera as the world turns digital.

gwilson
07-13-2011, 03:35 PM
Looks from several feet away can obviously be deceiving. I hear it has hardware quality fasteners all over it. I could change those,but have no idea about the rest of the lathe. I have seen excellent condition heavy 10's go for $2000.00,$2500.00 well equipped.

flathead4
07-13-2011, 03:51 PM
If I bought a Jag it better be English.

So if an English (for example) manfacturer has a factory in another country that product is no longer English? By that logic, Hondas made in the US are no longer Japanese. I wonder if a Japanese person would hesitate to buy a Honda made in the US?

Tom

BTW - If I'm not mistaken, South Bend took their manufacturing off-shore before Papa Grizzly did.

gwilson
07-13-2011, 03:59 PM
They did have some of their larger lathes made in Taiwan. 14" I think,maybe others.

lazlo
07-13-2011, 04:10 PM
BTW - If I'm not mistaken, South Bend took their manufacturing off-shore before Papa Grizzly did.

Towards the end of it's life, South Bend re-badged a line of Taiwanese gearhead lathes as Turnados. They don't seem to have a good reputation.

I think there were some domestic Turnados made in Indiana that were completely different machines.

Like the others, I don't understand Arthur's comment about Grizzly/Southbend. Shiraz Balolia (PappaGrizzly) is owner of Grizzly Imports, Woodstock, Shop Fox and now South Bend.

Arthur.Marks
07-13-2011, 04:14 PM
If Pappa Grizzly does not own the company,he definitely took full credit for it on another forum some time ago.
Yes. He does, but just because S.Balolia uses the forum moniker "Pappa Grizzly" does not denote "Grizzly Industrial, Inc." is involved in the corporate rights, development, design or legal ownership.

The fact I find more interesting in all of this is the Myford closure. It will be curious to see if that name follows a similar track as the reinvigorated SB by retaining the lucrative parts business while outsourcing the cost-prohibitive manufacturing processes of new machines. If Myford simply disappears outright, South Bend may become a conspicuous venture whose only price-comparison equivalent will be Wabeco. I believe S.Balolia recognizes there are people who want a new lathe that falls between a Sharpe 1118H and a typical, lower-tier 10-12" model. Certainly, I would argue, it would seem Myford did a fair number of factory rebuilds that hit the very price point of the current SB 10K.

Arthur.Marks
07-13-2011, 04:20 PM
Like the others, I don't understand Arthur's comment about Grizzly/Southbend. Shiraz Balolia (PappaGrizzly) is owner of Grizzly Imports, Woodstock, Shop Fox and now South Bend.
Exactly. S.Balolia owns both Grizzly and South Bend. All I was saying is what Dr. Stan clearly understood:

Yes technically they are separate companies. However they have the same owner and "Papa Griz" is simply using a different business model to increase distribution of the SB products.
I had no idea it would cause so much confusion! :p I brought it up because the dealer mark-up is an added cost in comparison to Grizzly's usual business model. So... given that, I see the retail price as fairly reasonable.

dfw5914
07-13-2011, 04:27 PM
BTW - If I'm not mistaken, South Bend took their manufacturing off-shore before Papa Grizzly did.

In the later years their smaller "traditional" lathes were made in Korea, to a very high standard btw.

aboard_epsilon
07-13-2011, 04:49 PM
My interpretation of it

1 ...No news on the net about it from a reputable source ..have searched Google news and Nottingham news papers

fact...myford director or top level man died last week

they were also restructuring website

They just stuck the sale up there whilst it was going on ..
sale is probably of stuff old director wouldn't let go whilst he was alive ..

or 2

someones hacked the website ..and it's thier idea of a joke.

all the best.markj

Arthur.Marks
07-13-2011, 05:08 PM
You're right on point, markj. Maybe it is a Brit's idea of a viral marketing campaign! :D Personally, I would love to have a brand new, big-bore Super 7 Plus and review it right next to a brand new SB 10K. I clearly don't have the $ or to do that, but it would make for a fabulous HSM issue!

The Artful Bodger
07-13-2011, 07:12 PM
In the later years their smaller "traditional" lathes were made in Korea, to a very high standard btw.


In the "later years", I see reports that SB had been importing lathes for sale under their name 50 years ago.

Mcruff
07-13-2011, 08:45 PM
Towards the end of it's life, South Bend re-badged a line of Taiwanese gearhead lathes as Turnados. They don't seem to have a good reputation.

I think there were some domestic Turnados made in Indiana that were completely different machines.



The Turnadoes I have run were nothing short of great toolroom lathes, several of them local to me that are 35 years old and are still used daily. These were really good machines. Non of them to my knowledge were ever built in South Bend though. Ask at PM 9South Bend lathe forum) to member SBLatheman (Ted) he was the the last toolroom foreman they had, was there for 30+ years and has tons of parts. He will set the record straight on these and other machines.

aboard_epsilon
07-14-2011, 02:20 PM
SOMETHINGS GOING ON

A company called HOFFUNG LIMITED changed their name to Myford limited couple of months ago.

HOFFUNG as far as i can make out means "Hope" in German.

all the best.mark

gwilson
07-14-2011, 02:22 PM
Let's HOPE they make decent lathes,if they possibly might be taking over Myford lathe production.

Alistair Hosie
07-14-2011, 03:05 PM
Hope is Hoffnung as in Die hoffnung mark not hoffung nearly right though well done .Alistair

rowbare
07-15-2011, 12:52 PM
Well I hope they sell tons of them and that the success encourages them to come out with a new Heavy 10...

bob

Paul Alciatore
07-15-2011, 02:20 PM
Fact: the original South Bend went out of business in the good old US. They could not compete. How many of us purchased more expensive SB or other US made products over the less expensive imports: show of hands please. I have a used SB and an import mill and saw so my hand is at least half up.

Like it or not, it is less expensive to make a machine tool in China and other countries than in the US. The people who do not buy the more expensive tools made here have no right to complain about this. If there is a problem here, WE are part of it.

As for the decision to make SBs offshore, the new owner, the man with money at stake, has made it. I personally feel that Grizzly products are at least a cut or two above most other imports. I have been in their showrooms on several occasions and have seen their machines. I own two of them and have purchases three others for my employer. I have no doubt that the quality control at PapaGrizzly's SB company will also be above the average import level. And the SBs he imports will be good value for the money. I wish him luck. And I hope I can, one day, purchase one of the new SBs.

Paul A.



Yes technically they are separate companies. However they have the same owner and "Papa Griz" is simply using a different business model to increase distribution of the SB products.

What I do not like is the purchase of a well established American brand and then off shoring the manufacturing of the product whether it is SB, Vice Grip, Dell, Apple or any other company. Do the owners have the "right" to do so, under the current system the answer is yes. However, the fact that the companies established brand recognition as an American company has value that can be measured in dollars and cents. The same is true for other products made in other countries.

If I bought a Jag it better be English.

If I bought a Emco Maier it better be Austrian.

If I bought a Swan lager or a Fosters it better be Australian and so on.

Dr Stan
07-15-2011, 03:33 PM
How many of us purchased more expensive SB or other US made products over the less expensive imports: show of hands please.

I have two SB lathes, a 9" and a 14 1/2" both purchased used rather than new Chinese. I also have a made in the US Fray vertical mill, rather than a Chinese mill.

The Fray is about 99% finished on its overhaul and is waiting on me to finish up my garage addition.

The 9" SB underwent a partial overhaul (cross slide and apron) after it arrived in my shop.

The 14 1/2" will eventually be overhauled, but it does work as is.

I also own a early 1900's Cincinnati planner with a 9' bed needing a power source.

My vertical saw is a 14" Delta/Rockwell metal & wood saw.

My horizontal saw I built myself.

Both of my grinders are Baldor, an 8" and a tool grinder.

My MIG is a Miller and my OA is an A.O. Smith.

Virtually all of my measuring instruments are Brown & Sharpe, Starrett, Fowler, and Lufkin, with a few Mitutoyos tossed in for good measure.

I made my living for several years as a machinist, tool maker and millwright. Consequently I know the difference between good and bad tools.

Forgot one thing, my Atlas shaper (don't tell Milicron :) )

lazlo
07-15-2011, 06:14 PM
How many of us purchased more expensive SB or other US made products over the less expensive imports: show of hands please.

I'm agnostic -- I'll pay for quality every time, whether that's US, Canadian, Japanese, English, German, or Swiss.

But it's getting harder every day. Milwaukee sadly outsourced to China -- that was the last US power tool holdout. Now Bosch and Metabo are the last remaining EU manufacturers, and a bunch of the Bosch stuff is being outsourced.

Stock up while you can!

gearedloco
07-16-2011, 12:46 AM
It's been a long while (52 years):eek: and probably more than a few neurons have gone belly-up, but...

In high school metal shop we had 9 S.B. lathes - 1 18", 1 13" and 7 10". The teacher referred to them as "tool-room lathes." All had taper bars. All were set up with collet chucks. And I think they all used 5C collets. The new "heavy 10" under discussion clearly does not have a spindle big enough for 5C collets.

Maybe there were "heavy 10's" and other "heavy 10's." Or maybe "tool room lathes" does not equal "heavy 10's." Or maybe 10" lathes were made with small spindles or optional large spindles as well. Or, more likely, my memories are totally scrambled. But it sure seems like the threaded spindle nose on my 10" Logan is a lot smaller than the spindle noses on those 10" South Bends.

-bill

J. Randall
07-16-2011, 01:29 AM
It's been a long while (52 years):eek: and probably more than a few neurons have gone belly-up, but...

In high school metal shop we had 9 S.B. lathes - 1 18", 1 13" and 7 10". The teacher referred to them as "tool-room lathes." All had taper bars. All were set up with collet chucks. And I think they all used 5C collets. The new "heavy 10" under discussion clearly does not have a spindle big enough for 5C collets.

Maybe there were "heavy 10's" and other "heavy 10's." Or maybe "tool room lathes" does not equal "heavy 10's." Or maybe 10" lathes were made with small spindles or optional large spindles as well. Or, more likely, my memories are totally scrambled. But it sure seems like the threaded spindle nose on my 10" Logan is a lot smaller than the spindle noses on those 10" South Bends.



-bill
Bill, without going back and researching it, just off the top of my head, I think the new SB is based on the 10K with maybe a Heavy 10 in the future if all goes well.
P.S. The Heavy 10 is a 10L
James

JRouche
07-16-2011, 02:09 AM
Ok, Ill chime in, dont much like the "import VS other" topics but Im tossed and its friday night, wife is asleep and Im still getting tossed, so.....

I have some old US machines. And some old (and new) Asian machines, hell and an old Austrian machine, Emco.

See the common thread, all oldish cause I dont have alot of money. Used machines are less expensive than new.

Id love to be able to buy new machines, no matter the manufacture, as long as it was a decent machine. I cant. So... I buy used and the line up is US, Asian or UK.

And really, the money is tight. So for 900 bucks I bought a Southbend lathe cause it was all there and the bed looked good. If the bed looked shot then the lathe was shot. Its not worth fixing. For 900 bucks I could not have bought a new Asian lathe that was close to the capabilities of the SB. Not to mention I kinda like the handles. I dont like the Asian knock offs of the UK lathes with the cheap crank handles. Cause for me, Im on the handles and not even looking down at them, I just know where they are at. I dont like stick handles, they feel cheap and weak (not that they are).

But I do have Asian machines (I think). Lets see. Oh yeah!! The RF-45 bench mill CNC conversion. Its more of a hobby to do it then a useful machine right now. Its a LONG term project. But I love it for the project. And some day it might eat metal. But I still use the old used Bridgeport to make it happen. Old CNC Bridgeport that still eats metal.

Old Hardinge horizontal mill. Its small, but I am a Home Shop (wanna be) Machinist.. Its pretty versatile. Love that it can also use 5C holders. They are used on the SB AND my Cuttermaster grinder, oh and the old assed Monarch 10EE, it uses the 5C also.

I like inexpensive machines that can be cleaned up. I cant rebuild a machine. So it needs to be in good working order. But I can clean a machine up. And thats what I do. Find machines that are physically good to go but look like crap and clean them up. Then they become a part of my simple Home Shop... JR

loose nut
07-16-2011, 07:27 AM
Pretty soon it will be a choice of good Chinese or crappy Chinese, at least until the up and coming rich Chinese screw their people over and out source production to a cheaper labour/government control market.

aboard_epsilon
07-16-2011, 10:03 AM
CHINESE
YOU GOT NO CHANCE OF EVER COMPETING !!!!
just look at this picture ...says it all

if ever a picture said a thousand words, its this one ..
could you see his happening in your country

look at them ..it's normal, they aint worried..they aint thinking about no win no fee stinking lawyers ..polution..CO2 GLOBAL WARMING or..their own safety ..nothing zilch ..its just another day ....weather they be Chinese malisian ..or what ..they are the competitors.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/aboard_epsilon/NOTWORRIED.jpg

all the best.markj

lynnl
07-16-2011, 11:10 AM
You'd think they could scrounge up a few more boards.

...or maybe space those farthest boards out about a foot apart.

Alistair Hosie
07-16-2011, 02:42 PM
It's amazing how when you're used to something you can do it.I lived on a small island in Scotland kerrera near oban.I was scared of the short ferry crossing in a small twelve foot dinghy.I saw an elderly woman row across one wild wind swept night on her own just to collect the groceries laid at the other side for her.She went there and back when I met her on the otherside coming back home to the island,I felt she would be trembling I said to her wow what a night she smiled passing me buy and simply said aye it's fresh recht enuff.Alistair