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John Stevenson
07-14-2011, 03:30 AM
Not wanting to hijack Evans exploding software thread but I have recently had an upgrade on my machine from a corrupt copy of XP , corrupted thru time, onto W7.

Now it's running OK but I'm not that impressed with W7 and I have given it a month, some program have to run under XP mode and two have to run in a XP virtual window supplied my Microsoft.

Add to this I run as a user, not admin so I'm forever having to enter admin password to do anything.

So the question is, "Is it worth going back to XP ?"

Can I have answers from people who have trod this path and not just people who have a preference between the two ?

mike os
07-14-2011, 04:41 AM
to relieve the need for password use an admin acc

if UAC is on turn it off (should also eliminate need for PW, but without specifics it is hard to say)

for compatibility... you just have to live with it or update your other SW. My experience to date is that if it runs in an xp window on 7 it was probably running in a compatibility mode on xp anyway.

definately not worth going back to XP

if you used an upgrade rather than a clean install you are always going to have some issues, almost always legacy stuff that the upgrade left in place to accomodate things that might need it.

motorworks
07-14-2011, 05:44 AM
John
I have w7 on a new lap top (no choice) and Dolphin-partmaster locks up now and then and...stick with xp . Use it in the shop and NEVER had a problem....
eddie

SGW
07-14-2011, 07:57 AM
Personally, I like W7 and have no complaints with it. I also like XP. At some point though, XP will be obsolete. I guess only you can decide when you want to upgrade your other software to work seamlessly with W7, or whatever comes after W7. Even with your current software, running in XP mode doesn't seem particularly burdensome. The requirement to use the XP virtual machine could get annoying. Your tolerance for annoyance will determine your decision.

In my case, I found that all my applications, with a couple of minor exceptions, run under W7 with no problem. The only things I couldn't get to run were a couple of extremely ancient 16-bit apps, and I didn't particularly need them.

J Tiers
07-14-2011, 08:10 AM
Personally, I like W7 and have no complaints with it. I also like XP. At some point though, XP will be obsolete.

MS is supposedly "supporting" it until 2014, IIRC.

"Obsolete" is as obsolete does...... Microsoft could, legally, pull your licence for XP on the date that they stop "supporting" it, although they have no history of doing this (yet). I believe the user agreement allows that.

In practice, what happens is that nothing new runs on it, and you end up being unable to use nerw versions of IE, FireFox, Flash, Acrobat reader, etc, and so it becomes more-or-less useless for the web.

I know of people who still use DOS, or Win 95, for certain things because they have to use a program that requires it. There are programs that will *not* run in a "DOS compatibility window", one being the "Alpha 4" database program (although in that case there are upgrades to Win versions, with varying compatibility).

Some computers may not work well with W7, which is, at least, a nuch better program than the "large icon, primary colors, Nursery school" thing that was "Vista".

Bottom line is that on 1/1/2015, XP probably won't cease to operate. If stuff you use that doesn't upgrade needs XP, use it.

KEJR
07-14-2011, 09:40 AM
What exactly doesnt' run? I have win 7 32 bit and I've been able to run everything I've tried, but I don't tend to run old software on my machine at home.

I need to get into it for work, because we run some older software for programming machines, but so far its just been kind of lurking as something "we need to do soon". I don't relish the idea of running a bunch of programs in XP mode (or using vmware) but then again it does offer some advantages such as having a complete operating environment that you can "seal" up using the feature of not saving to the virtual disk. The advantage of this is that if you ever got a virus or made a mistake logged in as administrator to the virtual machine you could just restart your virtual machine and it would be like reverting to a clean drive image. I've not used XP mode, but my understanding is that it is just virtual PC made somewhat easier/transparent to use.

I personally would not set your normal user as administrator in Win7. Microsoft has finally come to the point where Unix has been for years and it promises to be more secure. If you are typing in the administrator password for alot of programs I would re-examine if you need to use those programs. The exception is the annoying Java runtime and Adobe flash updates that seem to have plagued us all. Look at it like this, if someone wants to change core files in your system, you should *want* to specify extra security password just to make sure some rogue program/virus is not trying to install itself as a service, etc.

KEJR

lazlo
07-14-2011, 10:04 AM
What exactly doesnt' run? I have win 7 32 bit and I've been able to run everything I've tried, but I don't tend to run old software on my machine at home.

Likewise -- I was surprised by that comment. Are you trying to run old DOS programs, or are these programs with legacy device drivers?

The big change (for the better) between XP and Vista/Win 7 is that the latter moved all the device drivers into user space. The vast majority of blue screens/system crashes are due to crappy third party drivers. So moving the device drivers into user space (User-Mode Driver Framework) means that crappy device drivers can crash and not affect the kernel.

The problem with UMDF is that, like a 64-bit port, it requires a complete re-write, so many legacy device drivers haven't, and won't, be ported.

DFMiller
07-14-2011, 10:13 AM
I have W7 on my MacBook Pro under bootcamp for running Solidworks. I have had issues with it like altering write privileges on file forcing me to complete re- install of SW instead of an upgrade for SP4.0
Other than strange things like that Windoze is Windoze.
I read that as of this week windows update will not work unless you are running SP3.0
Next MS is coming out with their newest OS Windows 666.

Dave

macona
07-14-2011, 11:39 AM
One other thing you might run into is Win7 wants to see signed drivers. You will probably have to tell it to allow unsigned drivers. Just dont install 64bit version, it requires signed drivers. There is a hack to allow you to run unsigned drivers, I have had to use it to run some older stuff.

lakeside53
07-14-2011, 11:43 AM
I run Win7 on 4 of my machines, three 32 bit and one 64 bit, and XP on another for the handful of old programs I thought I'd need. "Thought", because most I mostly didn't. It forced me to search for subsitute programs that would run under Win 7, and hey, they were a heck of a lot better then what I'd been hanging onto for a few decades. :) The XP machine mostly gathers dust.

I'd ditch XP in heartbeat on that last machine, but my Nikon film scanner software will never get drivers for WIN7 - Nikon's solution - buy a $500 third party software solution.

I was also confused for a while about needed to run certain programs "as administrator", but that's an easy fix (set up a separate "admin user" or if you want to take the risk, run as admin). Most of my programs have had updates and no longer need to run as admin, except for some updates.

One thing that Win7 loves... memory... Load it up...

lazlo
07-14-2011, 12:09 PM
One other thing you might run into is Win7 wants to see signed drivers. You will probably have to tell it to allow unsigned drivers.

I would strongly advise not to do that!

Almost all unsigned drivers circumvent the User-Mode Driver Framework that guarantees that drivers don't crash the kernel.

To get a driver signed is free and dirt simple -- it's not like you're getting WHQL certification.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/gg487317

macona
07-14-2011, 02:19 PM
Yeah, but some times you have old unsupported hardware with ancient drivers and the company is not going to submit them for signing. Then you are stuck.

Black_Moons
07-14-2011, 02:35 PM
Running win7 64bit and most impressed.

Downsides so far: My old steering wheel does not have drivers anymore, they droped support for it same release as they added win7 support, bastards.

Basicly, Win7 64bit is great if your buying new everything else to go with your system, or leaving your older stuff attached to other PC's.

saltmine
07-14-2011, 06:06 PM
I switched over to Win7 last year. But, I was a little leary of the new program and architecture, so, I partitioned my hard drive and set up a dual boot, so I could keep both Win7 and XP on the same computer. A few weeks ago, I re-partitioned the hard drive again, and uninstalled XP.

I guess I'm in the group that likes Win7.

As far as running programs, I've discovered that if I let Win7 "have" the program in question, it magically seems to make adjustments and pretty soon, whatever the program was, that wouldn't run in Win7, all of a sudden does.

Point of example: My CAD program, "TurboCad Professional" V12 would not run on Win7 when I first put Win7 on my computer. I wrote to IMSI (the makers of TurboCad) and asked them if they had drivers or a work-around so I could run it on Win7. They bluntly replied that I would have to upgrade to the latest version of TurboCad ($400), because they didn't intend to offer anything to make TurboCad run on a Win7 computer...except the new, Win7 compatible version of TurboCad. I also wrote to Microsof and asked the same question. No, they didn't have anything that would allow TurboCad to work in Win7 either....Tough luck, either buy the $400 upgrade, or keep XP, just for the CAD program.

Then one day, I needed to do a CAD rendering for a part I was making. I inadvertantly clicked on the TurboCad icon, and there it was! I opened the program, and went through as much as I could...everything worked perfecty, even the 3-D rendering software, and the movie functions of TurboCad...except they were way faster.
The same thing happened with my Graphics program. One day, I couldn't open it, the next day it was all there and functioning perfectly...Is my computer haunted?


Please excuse me, I have to go into my CAD program and design a "double-barreled, bolt action, revolver" for one of the guys.

CCWKen
07-14-2011, 09:07 PM
As far as running programs, I've discovered that if I let Win7 "have" the program in question, it magically seems to make adjustments and pretty soon, whatever the program was, that wouldn't run in Win7, all of a sudden does.
There's a lot of self-healing features in Win7. I wouldn't doubt that it's capable of making adjustments for drivers. I've recently started looking into how Superfetch and Prefetch work, or not, with SSDs. When Windows 7 "becomes aware" of the speed of a particular SSD, it starts changing various parameters on it's own. And I don't just mean stopping Defrag. Besides that, Win7 will lock, or restrict use of, an internal drive used for backup. It's not necessary to use an external drive. Many, many things are going on in Windows 7. I run Win7 Pro x64 and like it. Windows 8 will be out in 2012. If MS will support XP to 2014, look for an abrupt stop of XP support across the board--Hardware and software.

airsmith282
07-14-2011, 09:09 PM
Xp has been obsolete for some time now,.my last system could run any version of XP Vista or windows 7, i perfer vista my self but windows 7 is ok not really alot of differences from vista, windows 7 is pretty stable now...

if the copy of win7 was put in and you were not suplied the disc and code then you have an illeagle copy for starters which can explain the admin/user problem you have, but there is a way around everything thats for sure ,,

to be honest id go buy a leagle copy the best version of windows 7 or go back to vista ulitmate, xp is done and no longer has any security and IE is now maxed at version 8 so you can not use the new version 9 gota love micorsoft..

John Stevenson
07-15-2011, 03:02 AM
Who said I installed an illegal copy ~?
It's one of a 7 user developers pack that small son subscribes to.

At least W7 has a decent spell checker :rolleyes:

Thanks for the help guys, worst program is an old copy of Quickbooks and to be honest it's not worth upgrading, only got 18 months left to go and it will run in the virtual XP window.

Dolphin has some issues but it was never written for W7 and they are dragging their heels to get a fix out.

jugs
07-15-2011, 03:18 AM
John, you need to upgrade your machine, try one of these (http://www.datamancer.net/steampunklaptop/steampunklaptop.htm)

john
:)

mike os
07-15-2011, 08:25 AM
now that i like :D

lazlo
07-15-2011, 10:50 AM
John, you need to upgrade your machine, try one of these (http://www.datamancer.net/steampunklaptop/steampunklaptop.htm)

Oh, wow -- that is cool!

paulfx
07-15-2011, 01:22 PM
Not wanting to hijack Evans exploding software thread but I have recently had an upgrade on my machine from a corrupt copy of XP , corrupted thru time, onto W7.

Now it's running OK but I'm not that impressed with W7 and I have given it a month, some program have to run under XP mode and two have to run in a XP virtual window supplied my Microsoft.

Add to this I run as a user, not admin so I'm forever having to enter admin password to do anything.

So the question is, "Is it worth going back to XP ?"

Can I have answers from people who have trod this path and not just people who have a preference between the two ?


I gave up on Microsoft in 1996 in favor of Linux and can't say as I regret it, not for a nanosecond!

You can do this on Linux:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgbeyNNBZ68

For free using this software:

http://www.linuxcnc.org/

I did that on a computer I rescued out of a pile of trash. All it needed to fix it was Linux. Here is a chart of it booting up:

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2250/wedoct27bootchart.png

Can any Windows machine even compete with that? The "time 0:16" is the time from post to boot prompt or total OS load time. My i3 boots up in 5 seconds. It is newer so of course it is faster. I had to pay for that system though.

Linux outperforms Windows in sheer raw computing power

http://top500.org/stats/list/37/osfam

Or those in the know wouldn't be using it now would they? I figure the 1.2% share Windows has is Microsoft themselves sponsoring some hardware just so they show up on the chart. Why anyone would run their trash is beyond me.

CCWKen
07-15-2011, 03:53 PM
...worst program is an old copy of Quickbooks and to be honest it's not worth upgrading, only got 18 months left to go and it will run in the virtual XP window.
See if it will load on Windows 7. I'm still running a VERY old version of Quickbooks Pro and didn't do anything special. Just loaded the disc and it runs. The only problem with it is the printing but I had that with XP too. (That's how old it is.) I just print to Windows XPS Document Writer and it creates images of the pages. Then just print those. Works for the low volume I have anyway.

macona
07-15-2011, 05:08 PM
Linux outperforms Windows in sheer raw computing power

http://top500.org/stats/list/37/osfam

Or those in the know wouldn't be using it now would they? I figure the 1.2% share Windows has is Microsoft themselves sponsoring some hardware just so they show up on the chart. Why anyone would run their trash is beyond me.

That one is a little different. You can set up a whole bunch of old machines with linux and its costs nothing for the software. If you tried to do that with windows it will cost a bundle as you need a license for each machine.

Tried linux, dont like it. Its an OS for geeks, in general.

lazlo
07-15-2011, 06:08 PM
Linux outperforms Windows in sheer raw computing power

http://top500.org/stats/list/37/osfam

That's the OS market-share for the Top 500 Supercomputers, and yes most supercomputers (many of which are comprised of immense Nvidia/CUDA arrays) run Linux and MPI.

topct
07-15-2011, 06:50 PM
Oh ya, burn one of these kind of disks. Then set up your hard drive to boot this way, after inserting a thumb drive that has been configured into booting that way. Re-write line such and such in your config then reboot from a line that matches in the start-up menu.

macona
07-15-2011, 07:35 PM
That's the OS market-share for the Top 500 Supercomputers, and yes most supercomputers (many of which are comprised of immense Nvidia/CUDA arrays) run Linux and MPI.


Also the Air Forces supercomputer array of 1760 Playstation 3's running linux.

Timleech
07-16-2011, 08:57 AM
I'd ditch XP in heartbeat on that last machine, but my Nikon film scanner software will never get drivers for WIN7 - Nikon's solution - buy a $500 third party software solution.



Have you looked at Vuescan

www.hamrick.com

It may well have a driver for your scanner, I resorted to it because there was no W7 driver for my Epson scanner. It didn't cost anywhere near $500.

Tim

lakeside53
07-16-2011, 11:47 AM
Thanks.

They do have a driver so at some point it probably worth me taking another look. It doesn't support some of the advanced color reconstruction scanning algorithms that Nikon has, but for some work it will be fine. Right now it's scan on XP, then pass to W7 computers for post prcessing.

I traveled "a lot" in the 80's, and had my Ektachrome developed all over. Big mistake... wide variability in developing that only showed up years later. I can put in an old faded film strip with almost no image visible into my Nikon, and it will reconstruct most of the image and colors.