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383 240z
07-14-2011, 09:50 PM
For my Enco 13x40 gap bed:

A set 5 indexable tool holders
good parting tool
MT3 5/8" chuck for the tail stock
2 live centers

Wants for lathe:
Boring bar holder
QCTP
Threading dial

For my Cincinatti Toolmaster
Good asst. of 2 and 4 flute end mills
Large set of Toolmaster collets
MT2 collet
MT2 1/2" chuck
small V blocks
large V block
Boring head
Boring bars
Wiggler
.200" spring loaded edge finder
Starret Last word type indicater
3 1" travel Dial indicaters with Mag bases for each
3-2-1 blocks
6" vice on mill table
4" sine vice
large box of odd cutters I picked up
T-Nut hold down set

Wants for mill:
DRO
DRO
DRO
height guage
Power feed to raise the knee
rotary table (indexing table???) you know what I mean


What else should I be keeping my eyes open for? I know better than to buy tools I wont need but if I come across a good deal on a commonly used tool I would be a fool not to pop on it. Well what am I missing? Thanks again Keith

Joel
07-15-2011, 12:03 AM
I would want to add a decent scissors style knurling tool for one, but my best advice for tooling up would be to buy what you need to accomplish the tasks you require (or desire).
Whenever you say "Damn, I wish I had a XX", then go look into buying XX.

Boostinjdm
07-15-2011, 12:18 AM
Put the QCTP right at the top of your list. The best money I've spent lately was the Phase II wedge type set. Came with boring bar holder, knurling tool, parting tool holder, and another couple tool holders. Normally around $400, I caught it on sale with a discount and free shipping for around $200 from Enco. That sped things up a lot.

Follow that with a live center and a chuck for the tail stock.

I don't think I would worry about the power feed on the knee. I've thought about it, but then I saw the cost and decided I don't mind cranking the handle.:)

macona
07-15-2011, 02:06 AM
Yeah, top of all others a QTCP, that has your boring bar holder and parting tool holder with it. The lathe should come with a threading dial.

Next is a dro. Borite sells a good set of indexable tool holders. You will need at least two chucks for the tailstock, 5/8" chucks only go down to 1/8".

For the mill.

Dont buy end mill sets, buy what you need, I almost never buy two flute, I get three or 4. Get a keyless chuck with a straight shank. You can probably wait on the boring head, when you do, get a good Criterion. Wigglers are meh, use an edgefinder. Skip the starrett, get a Interapid 312 and a indicol holder, Maybe 1 dial indicator, I rarely use them. Skip the sine vice, they are for grinding. Glacern makes a nice 6" vice, bought one for work.

Move DRO up from want to need.

mf205i
07-15-2011, 03:48 AM
A degausser is often overlooked but very useful. I hate working with magnetized stock or tools.
Jacobs 18 N Super Chuck 3/32-3/4.
Treat yourself to a first class oil can.
Have fun, Mike

Black_Moons
07-15-2011, 06:35 AM
Nobody will listen to me, but screw jacob.
Support the forum, Buy from glacern! I got there R8 1/2" chuck. Its AWSOME. Nickel plated, No rust!, Ball bearing operation so smooth, at highest RPM if I don't tighten the drill nicely, it will fall out when I turn the mill off. Auto tool change! (hah). Never sliped on a drill yet. Still easy as silk to open after drilling 1" holes in steel like butter.
http://www.glacern.com/drill_chucks

My only reget? That I havent yet bought a MT3 one to fit in my lathe tailstock.

Im a cheap bastard, But I am really loving this drill chuck. After all how much does it suck to look for that damn key? And have a drill slip reguardless how tight you tighten it? Glacern ball bearing chucks are self tightening!

Drill chucks and vises are things you use for nearly every project, And won't wear out any time soon, Why put up with less then the best if you'll use it EVERY project?

Unlike other expensive tooling, you won't easily damage it as a beginner either. (Well, Maybe the odd hole in your vise if you are careless)

PS: Wheres your $20 chinese caliper and $20 micrometers? They are a must!

As far as oil cans, Im liking the new retro style.
http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/m/m51IgELOBUSskHxu4KHlbrA/140.jpg
like this, But made outta plastic. About $5. Works well, lasts longer then the cheap metal can oilers with pumps. Maybe the expensive metal can oilers with pumps work better, but im cheap. And for $5 you can have one for cutting oil at each machine, and another for lubrication oil. Suprisingly easy to meter out drops or as much oil as needed.

aboard_epsilon
07-15-2011, 06:45 AM
Yeah, those pump oil cans never seem to last long.

You would think ..pumping clean oil ..they would never wear out ..but they do ..and in a short amount of time

i have a couple of these vintage ones ..they cant go wrong ..no pump

well they look like they have a pump ..the knob just opens a door and lets the oil out ..at a steady rate

http://www.nzmeccano.com/gallerymids/41051.jpg

all the best.markj

383 240z
07-15-2011, 07:11 AM
macona
I got the set of end mills as a gift from the wife. I picked up a good asst. of name brand cutters from my local tool supply. Thanks for the tip on getting a smaller chuck for my tailstock. I got the 5/8" a few months ago, I'll pick up a 1/2" next trip out. I got the wiggler and edge finder in a box of stuff an ex-boyfriend of my sister gave me. The sine vise was something that has been hanging around my shop for years. I bought a boring head just 2 days ago.

I have been looking into QCTP's a lot lately, I have measuring chart from the manufactures website and none of the specs they list fit my machine. I'll post the dims when I get back home, I'm on the road for work until Sat. morning. Thnaks Guys Keith

DATo
07-15-2011, 07:30 AM
If you are smart the criteria you should use is this:

If I can accomplish what I need to do in any other way I won't spend money on something new; instead, I need to focus on getting tools that allow me to do work that would be very difficult or impossible to do without them.

So instead of getting a power knee feed/lift for the mill get a boring head, instead of getting a quick change tool post for the lathe get a 4 jaw chuck and/or a quick release collet adaptor and as great a collection of collets as you can afford, instead of getting a DRO for the mill get an indexing head / rotary table. You can always get the other things later but you will severely limit what you can do NOW in your shop without the things I mentioned above.

When I set up my shop at home I spent a predetermined limit on my lathe and mill with the personal understanding with myself that anything else would have to be purchased from profit acquired by what I had to work with at the time. I then followed the tool selection criteria that I mention above. By the end of my first year I had made enough to repay myself for both machines as well as augment my tools considerably. Had I known this in advance I would have bought everything up front, but since I started out from a dead stop with no customers I might have made big mistake to dump, what was to me, a small fortune into a shop.

One of my first jobs included 2 water-cooled injection molds about 9" wide by 14" long. Each half of each mold consisted of three parts to facilitate the water jacket. I squared all the parts by hand-feeding the table, including the final assembly fly cuts for each half (.003 deep by 1" per minute finish cuts times 4 assembled platens). It was a pain in the butt to do but with the profit from that job I was able to buy a new Yuassa dividing head with a precision-adjust three jaw chuck and a power feed for the X axis of the mill. I continued to do this till my shop was entirely self sufficient.

If you splurge for convenience items you will cut yourself off at the knees in terms of versatility. On the other hand, if you've got the disposable cash available then go for everything now and forget everything I've said *L*

PixMan
07-15-2011, 09:06 AM
Lathe:

I will completely discourage the OP from buying/getting "A set 5 indexable tool holders".

Cheap, yes, but still a nearly complete waste of money. The machine is big enough, new enough and has enough speed and power to run carbide insert tooling, but you'll be much more satisfied with one or two GOOD toolholders than you would be with one of those 5-piece sets of Chinese crap.

Once you have a quick change tool post (from Tools4Cheap.NET, btw) and know what shank size you can use, ping me and I'll help you choose a toolholder or two, and inserts. Of course you'd want a good selection of HSS tool bits too, and learn how to grind and use them (if you have not already done this.) Once you know that, you'll better-understand what carbide insert tooling can and cannot do for you.

Mill:

+1 on the Interapid (or Best Test, Mitutoyo, Compac or other) indicator over a Last Word. Been there, done that. Many people have used the LW for years and love them, for me it's the only one of dozens of Starrett tools that I've sold after buying it brand new. Starrett DOES make a good edgefinder though (I have two No.827s), and I've heard that Fisher Machine makes a good one at half the Starrett price.

Why would you need THREE 1" travel indicators and bases? I have have one for many years, and never really needed more. I suppose one mounted on a Mighty-Mag base for sticking on the lathe to measure Z moves is nice. Maybe 2 on Noga tall mag bases are nice if truing up a large workpiece in a 4-jaw chuck, but on a mill? I don't see it. V-blocks are good, I have 4 pairs/sizes, 2 of them in matched pairs of Starrett (No.278 and No.568), plus a homemade No.567 knockoff.

macona
07-15-2011, 11:02 AM
macona
I got the set of end mills as a gift from the wife. I picked up a good asst. of name brand cutters from my local tool supply. Thanks for the tip on getting a smaller chuck for my tailstock. I got the 5/8" a few months ago, I'll pick up a 1/2" next trip out. I got the wiggler and edge finder in a box of stuff an ex-boyfriend of my sister gave me. The sine vise was something that has been hanging around my shop for years. I bought a boring head just 2 days ago.

I have been looking into QCTP's a lot lately, I have measuring chart from the manufactures website and none of the specs they list fit my machine. I'll post the dims when I get back home, I'm on the road for work until Sat. morning. Thnaks Guys Keith

Oh, I thought that was a list of TO get not gotten.

You need a BXA sized post for your machine.

-Jerry

macona
07-15-2011, 11:05 AM
Lathe:

I will completely discourage the OP from buying/getting "A set 5 indexable tool holders".

Cheap, yes, but still a nearly complete waste of money. The machine is big enough, new enough and has enough speed and power to run carbide insert tooling, but you'll be much more satisfied with one or two GOOD toolholders than you would be with one of those 5-piece sets of Chinese crap.


Thats why I mentioned Borite, they are made in the US. I brought in a 1/2" shank set from home for work and they do a good job. They use pretty generic TPG inserts.

PixMan
07-15-2011, 11:35 AM
Thats why I mentioned Borite, they are made in the US. I brought in a 1/2" shank set from home for work and they do a good job. They use pretty generic TPG inserts.

I though Borite made...boring bars.

You brought your home shop cutting tools to work? I'd never do that because perishable cutting tools are part of costing a job, and the shop owner should be working that into the price and buying them.

I just went looking and found these:

http://www.boritemanufacturing.com/indexable_lathes

Much better quality than the Chinese sets, for sure, but I just don't think it's worth the expense because the "AR" one is going to get up to 90% of the work in most shops, the others collect dust. Those also appear to use an insert similar (but different spec) to a standard TPGT. That can make them a proprietary insert. Is there some other set there that uses a true TPG221 or TPG321 insert that uses a top clamp and has no hole?

I believe that one SCLCR 083D or SWLCR 083D style holder, which use 80 included angle CCGT32.5x or WCGT32.5x inserts are a better use of the money. One holder can turn and face without moving the holder, and you can get inserts anywhere for cheap (or spend good money for better ones.)

Personal preference, I guess.

Rosco-P
07-15-2011, 11:56 AM
I just went looking and found these:

http://www.boritemanufacturing.com/indexable_lathes

Much better quality than the Chinese sets, for sure, but I just don't think it's worth the expense because the "AR" one is going to get up to 90% of the work in most shops, the others collect dust. Those also appear to use an insert similar (but different spec) to a standard TPGT. That can make them a proprietary insert. Is there some other set there that uses a true TPG221 or TPG321 insert that uses a top clamp and has no hole?

Personal preference, I guess.

Think Enco has a name brand USA made set that is simililar to but better than the cheap chinee 5 piece sets.

I want holders that have both a top clamp and a pin or screw to secure the insert. No chance of the insert pulling out on a heavy cut.

Boostinjdm
07-15-2011, 02:23 PM
I've had my eye on this type tpg tool holder from Enco. I think I want a right hand, left hand, and one with the tip straight out. They aren't real cheap, but they would use the same inserts as my favorite boring bar. The local machine shop has them and doesn't really have any complaints.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=7908933&PMAKA=422-2996

strokersix
07-15-2011, 02:46 PM
Instead of three 1" travel indicators go for at least one 2" travel indicator on a mighty mag base. I'd love to have a 3" or 4" unit but those seem not common and/or expensive.

steverice
07-15-2011, 02:54 PM
300 Disc C.D. player, 5.1 Surround Sound w/ Sub-woofer, DVD player, VCR, minimum 24" flat screen and a refrigerator.

That should about do it.

Oldbrock
07-15-2011, 03:00 PM
Find a USA made or European made dividing head with tailstock (or footstock) you will probably use it more often than the rotary table. Get as many dividing plates as you can, I have four plates and still had to make one and drill another set of holes in one of the four. I have a rotary table and have used it twice over the last five years but use the dividing head on a weekly basis. I also use my boring head as a flycutter when I need one. Above all, have fun, Peter

macona
07-15-2011, 03:09 PM
I though Borite made...boring bars.

You brought your home shop cutting tools to work? I'd never do that because perishable cutting tools are part of costing a job, and the shop owner should be working that into the price and buying them.



Brought them in, dont need them at home as I have better stuff. Work pays for inserts. I work at a movie studio, not a machine shop. It took years just to get a decent lathe and mill.

justanengineer
07-15-2011, 04:05 PM
If you are smart the criteria you should use is this:

If I can accomplish what I need to do in any other way I won't spend money on something new; instead, I need to focus on getting tools that allow me to do work that would be very difficult or impossible to do without them.

So instead of getting a power knee feed/lift for the mill get a boring head, instead of getting a quick change tool post for the lathe get a 4 jaw chuck and/or a quick release collet adaptor and as great a collection of collets as you can afford, instead of getting a DRO for the mill get an indexing head / rotary table. You can always get the other things later but you will severely limit what you can do NOW in your shop without the things I mentioned above.

When I set up my shop at home I spent a predetermined limit on my lathe and mill with the personal understanding with myself that anything else would have to be purchased from profit acquired by what I had to work with at the time. I then followed the tool selection criteria that I mention above. By the end of my first year I had made enough to repay myself for both machines as well as augment my tools considerably. Had I known this in advance I would have bought everything up front, but since I started out from a dead stop with no customers I might have made big mistake to dump, what was to me, a small fortune into a shop.

One of my first jobs included 2 water-cooled injection molds about 9" wide by 14" long. Each half of each mold consisted of three parts to facilitate the water jacket. I squared all the parts by hand-feeding the table, including the final assembly fly cuts for each half (.003 deep by 1" per minute finish cuts times 4 assembled platens). It was a pain in the butt to do but with the profit from that job I was able to buy a new Yuassa dividing head with a precision-adjust three jaw chuck and a power feed for the X axis of the mill. I continued to do this till my shop was entirely self sufficient.

If you splurge for convenience items you will cut yourself off at the knees in terms of versatility. On the other hand, if you've got the disposable cash available then go for everything now and forget everything I've said *L*

^^^This.

Things like QCTPs and DROs are purely luxury items. You dont need luxuries, you need to acquire some basic skill and get your feet wet enough to realize what you need vs what you want. Keep in mind almost everything is a trade off. I used to think like many of these guys do, that a QCTP was almost a requirement. Then I worked in a prototype shop and realized how awkward they can get in the way during difficult operations. I now keep a lantern on the lathe and only switch to the QCTP when I need to run 100 of something. Many things in machining are exactly like this, so choose your tooling wisely. Remember, need not want. Dato hit the nail on the head squarely regarding what you need IMHO btw.

Rosco-P
07-15-2011, 04:49 PM
As Justanengineer and Dato are trying to point out, figure out what you need to own, not what you'd like to own. Get some skills and develop some experience with the basics. Maybe take a class and learn the right way instead of by trial and error. Learn how to grind some toolbits before jumping into carbide, etc.

macona
07-15-2011, 04:50 PM
QCTP get in the way?? How are you using it???

PixMan
07-15-2011, 05:51 PM
QCTP get in the way?? How are you using it???

Seriously. I've never had any BUT a QCTP on the lathe, and don't own a lantern toolpost nor the 4-way that the machine originally came with.

And I can honestly say the tool post has never gotten in the way of machining anything.

Mcgyver
07-15-2011, 06:11 PM
^^^This.

Things like QCTPs and DROs are purely luxury items. You dont need luxuries, you need to acquire some basic skill and get your feet wet enough to realize what you need vs what you want. Keep in mind almost everything is a trade off. I used to think like many of these guys do, that a QCTP was almost a requirement. Then I worked in a prototype shop and realized how awkward they can get in the way during difficult operations. I now keep a lantern on the lathe and only switch to the QCTP when I need to run 100 of something. Many things in machining are exactly like this, so choose your tooling wisely. Remember, need not want. Dato hit the nail on the head squarely regarding what you need IMHO btw.

I would agree with the general sentiment here....although my QCTP rarely comes off and its great luxury, it can be a pita as it'll foul the tailstock or barrell. Cheap made in china tooling makes for long Christmas lists, but not necessarily better machinists. Make stuff and learn the basics as your priorities will change with experience and doing so over a longer term greatly increases the chances of stumbling on high items at bargain prices

Way up on that list would be a bunch of 1/4" hss bits for the lathe and some good texts and a bunch of steel to turn....before say sine vise or dividing head or index cutters etc. For example, sometimes a dividing head is exactly what you need but more than likely it'll spend years on the shelf.

383 240z
07-15-2011, 07:51 PM
I'm understanding what your telling me. I guess I was a little afraid of being under tooled. It sounds like what I have and some thinking thru problems I should be off to a good start.

I dont remember who but somebody stated that I need a BXA head on a QCTP, ( i know some think it is a luxury but I'm tired of pulling the rest of the hair out of my head using shim stock to keep my cutters on center) I looked at the chart and I would have thought that was the one, however my compound sits rather high, I'll post pics later, I dont think it is OE. I am not sure what a lantern is, I guess its some type of tool holder. I have a 4 position tool holder, when I load it with my bit holders (1/2") it is only .002" below center. 1/4" HSS cutters sit WAY low.

Steel I got, I made friends with a guy at my local steel yard he saves all the drops (square and round solid) for my and sells it to my by the pound. plus I hit the local scrap yards often and get AL stock.

I got a boring head, I ordered it for a part I need to make for my Jeep. I make a mock up, just to see if it would work, out of HDPE. that stuff is hard to hold!!!! but I got my proof of concept and I got a big chunck of 6061 to make the real part out of. I'll start a new thread with a drawing of what I need to make and photos after each step of cutting.

I will post up a line drawing, hopefully you guys can help me figure out what to cut and when. Keith

Mcgyver
07-15-2011, 08:11 PM
I'm understanding what your telling me. I guess I was a little afraid of being under tooled. It sounds like what I have and some thinking thru problems I should be off to a good start.


you'll be told different things until the cows come home.....there's nothing wrong getting all the stuff if you want to get it and aren't missing meals to do so, its all for fun so go at it as you please. Don't let anyone tell you you shouldn't if you want to.... but don't feel you have to.

The advice i would extend is put learning the basics right up there with top priority tooling. read all you can, get some village press books, their magazines, classic books like The Amateur's Workshop, old mags both of VP and model engineer - high school/college text books are also great as they're written for the neophyte. Learn how to cut threads so its second nature, learn how to grind tool bits so its second nature etc, that sort of thing will prove far more useful than having every bit of tooling in the cupboard. When i was on the flat part of curve i read everything could get my hands on - didn't matter whether I had interest in making the particular item, but seeing their approach and methodology, well, each one of those authors taught me something....coupled with practice (back then hss in lantern post of course! lol)

The learning is cumulative; when you become competent with a certain level of things, the next level loses any intimidation it held and seems to fall into place. I'm not sure that ever happens for guys who are in rush to get all the tooling but never really put the same effort into learning the basics, both book and practical.

PixMan
07-16-2011, 07:57 AM
It occurs to me that some people might have trouble with interference of the toolholder blocks on a QCTP when using fairly short HSS tools. You can't get the whole tool post plus tool holder block in between the work and the tailstock unless you extend the tool itself to stay away from the tailstock quick and/or lathe center.

I guess I don't see this issue because I use so much carbide insert tooling. The only time I knew I'd have a problem was when I was using a rather wide threading insert tool to thread a long screw between centers. I had anticipated the interference and bought a long-nose live center, and also made a slight modification to the toolholder itself to solve the problem. You can see in this photo how I removed some metal from the holder (to the right of the insert) to accommodate the long-nose live center.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/kenm10759/Dads%20shop/IMG_1187-r.jpg

Most times when I know I have to turn using a center I can use an DNMG43x or VNMG33x style insert holder that's got the clearance and still pretty sturdy. These are 1" shanks after all, so fairly stout.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/kenm10759/Dads%20shop/422322392_photobucket_39767_.jpg

A smaller lathe using smaller positive rake (screw-down) inserts style such as DCGT and VBMT can achieve the same effect, on a smaller scale.

DATo
07-16-2011, 07:58 AM
Priorities:

1) KNOWLEDGE: As Mcgyver says, without knowledge of their proper use the best tools in the world are worthless. Acquire knowledge by reading books, visiting websites which offer tutorials and other sites such as this one where you can ask direct questions and get knowledgeable answers, then practice what you've learned in your shop.

2) MACHINE TOOLS: Without machine tools the whole point is moot, but it sounds like you already have machines. Keep them well maintained.

3) CUTTING TOOLS: You need cutters in order to use the machine tools. You do not need a lot of cutters, just what is necessary to do what you need to do. If you are buying new cutters from retailers start at first with the minimum and add as you find need.

--- A. YOU DO NOT NEED CARBIDE OR TIN COATED. Almost all shop work at the beginner level can be done with high speed steel. Don't spend a lot of money on fancy, expensive cutting tools meant for high production output when you are making one or two similar parts at a time. Have ONE carbide turning tool for the odd job that might require its use.

--- B. LEARN TO GRIND TOOL BITS. Those insert cutters are a joke for a home shop machinist. If you want to learn to be a machinist one of the most fundamental things to learn is to grind a lathe tool bit properly. The insert cutter was invented for high production where time out to sharpen a tool which has become dull is lost profit. The insert cutter is meant for high production, quick indexing, and minimum lost time. I have my students practice on square, mild steel blanks which is cheap, till they are ready to grind the real thing. If you do not feel confident grinding your own tools I'd suggest practicing on blanks first. Don't buy commercial boring bars at this stage - you can make them and get machining practice in the bargain.

--- C. Check your newspaper for auctions of shops going out of business. You can get a ton of cutters, sometimes for five cents on the dollar (been there, done that). Put a free ad in Craigslist: "Wanted - new or used machine shop cutting tools for home shop hobbyist with limited funds." You can negotiate price with someone from Craigslist, you can't do that with MSC or McMaster-Carr.

4. MACHINE TOOL ACCESSORIES : If you have a collection of 50 hammers they will not help you file. They may be the best hammers available, of all types and description, but they cannot do anything other than what they were made to do. The more accessories you have such as a boring head, dividing head, and work holding devices for the lathe the greater will be the variety of the work you can do in your shop. Do not buy boring bars, slitting saw arbors, or fly cutters - you can make them and get valuable experience in the process. As I stated in my previous post, if you are going to spend money spend it on items which will allow you to do what cannot be done with your current collection of tools and items which would be difficult to make. You have to walk a fine line between budget and need, i.e. I'd definitely buy a very good live center and drill chuck for the lathe before I'd worry about a dividing head, or even a quick change tool post for that matter.

5. MEASURING INSTRUMENTS: At this stage buy cheap. A decent dial or digital caliper, a couple of micrometers, a good square and a test indicator are all you need right now. When I was in school I bored my first press fit dimension using an inside spring caliper. If I could do it at 15 years of age I'm sure you can too. No need for telescoping gages right now. It's harder to do that way but it will make you a better machinist in the long run. If you can get the "feel" down on a spring caliper you be able to ace sizes with telescoping gages. That goes for other things as well. Instead of an edge finder use a dowel pin in a collet and a piece of cigarette paper. When the paper feels snug but pullable while spinning against the side of the workpiece you're about .001 away. There are a thousand common sense tricks you can employ to get reasonable results without having to buy a lot of instruments. As your skill level increases the tolerance and variety of measuring demands will increase too, that is the time to add to your instrument collection.

Every person's situation is different. If I've said anything that makes sense to your particular situation, use it, if not, pitch it out the window. I wish you the best of luck with your shop.

PixMan
07-16-2011, 11:57 AM
Great advice to the novice from DATo, and I agree with most of it.

There is nothing more fundamental and rewarding than learning to grind a turning tool and use it in such a way that you won't have to regrind it in the next minute. It's an invaluable skill because with it you learn about tool geometry, chip control (or lack thereof), and proper cutting speeds for high speed steel tools.

I am now a home machinist and have lots of HSS tooling. However, with over 30 years of working in commercial job shops, I am just happier using the productive carbide insert tools, and I can afford them. They are a lot cheaper than you'd ever think because while the price of new quality HSS bits is through the roof and harder than ever to find, carbide insert tooling gets less-expensive yet higher-quality all the time. Plus I have friends who give me samples, and I pass some of them along to others.

I do not consider my carbide insert tooling to be a joke. It's some pretty serious stuff. ;) And I give the same admonition; if my input doesn't make sense to you, don't use it.

As for measuring tools, that's one area where I say it only hurts once to buy first quality, meaning Mitutoyo, Starrett, Brown & Sharpe, Etalon, Federal, Interapid, etc. I still have my first micrometer, a Starrett No.230RL, and I will always have it. My $12.95 Chinese 0-1" that I bought when the Starrett was 20 years old, is long gone.

madwilliamflint
07-16-2011, 12:12 PM
I'm understanding what your telling me. I guess I was a little afraid of being under tooled.

At the risk of getting a n00b beatdown I'm gonna suggest that, unless you have an unlimited budget, you're always going to be undertooled. If you try to get everything you're gonna need, the breadth is just going to be insane.

These guys taught me that about 8-9 months ago when I was talking about buying "a full set of taps & dies."

Get what you need. No matter what you get, you're gonna need something different along the way. It's crazy how many projects I have that require I buy "stock plus a couple tools."

Though I'm finally starting to get to the "ooh, wait! I can do this with THAT, which I already have" point.

Lots of the stuff I bought in the first tooling up air-drop that I was sure I was gonna need is pretty dusty.

DATo
07-16-2011, 06:07 PM
I do not consider my carbide insert tooling to be a joke. It's some pretty serious stuff. And I give the same admonition; if my input doesn't make sense to you, don't use it. PixMan

Pix - I didn't mean to sound abrasive or to offend, I just felt that a beginner wouldn't have much need for carbide. Most beginners are going to be working with mild steel, aluminum and plastics which can be handled well with H.S.S. Tooling with carbide also has some distinct disadvantages for a beginner like its propensity to chip if not used properly and the cost of a 'green wheel' to sharpen. I'm just trying to save this guy money he doesn't need to spend if something else will serve his needs just as well. [:-)

Black_Moons
07-16-2011, 07:43 PM
Pix - I didn't mean to sound abrasive or to offend, I just felt that a beginner wouldn't have much need for carbide. Most beginners are going to be working with mild steel, aluminum and plastics which can be handled well with H.S.S. Tooling with carbide also has some distinct disadvantages for a beginner like its propensity to chip if not used properly and the cost of a 'green wheel' to sharpen. I'm just trying to save this guy money he doesn't need to spend if something else will serve his needs just as well. [:-)

Gotta agree. I chiped a LOT of carbide (and then even striped a nut holding my compound on my lathe due to trying to force exceptionaly dull/chiped carbide through an interrupted cut) as a noob. Once I got over my 'CARBIDE IS AWSOME HSS IS OLD AND OBSOLETE' noob phase, I realised both had advantages and disadvantages, And that for a lot of work HSS was better, and likey HSS is better for beginners, especialy on a limited budet.

Yea, a blank costs a couple bucks, But you can resharpen it a few hundred to 10+ thousand times depending on the form and rake/etc.

And a couple blanks in your toolbox = Have access to ANY form tool you could ever want.

a couple carbide inserts in your toolbox = you have some spares for your most basic inserts.
dozens of carbide inserts in your toolbox = you have access to a full range of threading inserts, and a few basic sizes of grooving tools and form tools.

And then must order a new insert and wait and pay shiping if you wanna do anything new with carbide. :P

psomero
07-16-2011, 09:13 PM
Things like QCTPs and DROs are purely luxury items.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

this is pure nonsense.

as soon as i got both of these items, i kicked myself in the ass for not having them sooner. they will save you hundreds of hours in needlessly wasted time.

Mcgyver
07-16-2011, 09:21 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

this is pure nonsense.

as soon as i got both of these items, i kicked myself in the ass for not having them sooner. they will save you hundreds of hours in needlessly wasted time.

:confused: so what do you think the luxury part means? that its not critical to being able to do the job but nice to have - makes the job easier and/or faster

My shop is fairly well equipped, haven't bothered with a dro though....yet...I agree the QCTP would be something I'd not want to be without but its still a luxury

macona
07-16-2011, 09:32 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

this is pure nonsense.

as soon as i got both of these items, i kicked myself in the ass for not having them sooner. they will save you hundreds of hours in needlessly wasted time.

Same here. No more messing with Dial indicators trying to measure carriage travel on lathes. Less messed up parts because you forgot to take backlash in account on a mill. Quick and accurate hole drilling on a mill.

Some people think that doing it with dials at the beginning makes you a better machinist. Total BS. Like saying learning to drive a model T before driving a new car will make you a better driver. Its how people who do not have DROs justify not having one.

Before I started at Laika the machines were crappy pieces of Jet. We got new machines and the first thing I did on the lathe was install a DRO. Everyone loves it. Parts are made faster, more accurate, and on the first time. And absolutely nothing here is a mass produced part.

I started with carbide and still use it almost exclusively. The only time I dont use it is when I need a form tool. If you want something cheaper than the average look at tools that hold negative TNMG inserts like the Plastools holders. These inserts are the cheapest ones made and since it uses negative inserts you get 6 cutting points per insert for only a couple bucks per insert. I used these on my old Grizz 7x12 years ago and they were great.

macona
07-16-2011, 09:34 PM
:confused: so what do you think the luxury part means? that its not critical to being able to do the job but nice to have - makes the job easier and/or faster

My shop is fairly well equipped, haven't bothered with a dro though....yet...I agree the QCTP would be something I'd not want to be without but its still a luxury

Is power steering on a car a luxury? You can drive without it (usually).

psomero
07-16-2011, 09:39 PM
Is power steering on a car a luxury? You can drive without it (usually).



is a speedometer a luxury? how about a fuel gauge?

who makes a car these days without power steering anyways?

PixMan
07-16-2011, 09:40 PM
DATo,

No offense taken at all, no worries.

I can recall back in 1973 when I started at trade school (lathe department first, using belt-driven South Bend lathes) that it was quite common for a newbie to burn up the HSS tool while grinding it, then waste it on the lathe by running too fast.

Later when I was given my first brazed carbide tools, I chipped those because I was running way to slow. And this happened to many students because the instructor had up to 16 young men all trying to bust machines or hurt themselves (or both) all at the same time. ;) I know because I still have the scars and the machine is probably still in pieces. :D

We all have to start somewhere. Fortunately for me, I had some very patient shop teachers and my dad all helping me. (My wife now does home health care for one of those instructors, now well into his 90's and still sharp as a stainless steel chip.

All I'm saying is that just as I don't want any new machinist to overlook the value of learning to grind a tool, I don't want any long-time home machinist to over look the benefits of modern tooling if their machines can use it, and they can afford it. I also want to educate machinists thinking about using carbide as to the most-common pitfalls. (Chinese tooling sets, cheap holders you don't need, carbide that's not as strong as a piece of chalk, etc.)

lazlo
07-16-2011, 09:53 PM
I could be wrong, but it seems like a lot of folks use carbide tooling on manual lathes, especially hobby-class lathes, because they're unwilling (or unable?) to grind a HSS toolbit.

PixMan
07-16-2011, 10:20 PM
I could be wrong, but it seems like a lot of folks use carbide tooling on manual lathes, especially hobby-class lathes, because they're unwilling (or unable?) to grind a HSS toolbit.

In my case, I'm neither unwilling nor unable.

I just know both really well, have plenty of both, and know how to use both. They are two different kinds of tools, need to be used differently, and sometimes cost different amounts of money.

Plus, a 16x40 lathe is somewhat on the large side of "hobby-class".

There may be some truth to your theory, but I really don't think its a prevailing attitude.

lazlo
07-16-2011, 10:58 PM
Plus, a 16x40 lathe is somewhat on the large side of "hobby-class".

The OP is asking for recommendations for an Enco/Turn Pro 13x40 Gap Bed lathe (about 1500 lbs), which will be a lot happier with HSS than carbide.

macona
07-16-2011, 11:11 PM
is a speedometer a luxury? how about a fuel gauge?

who makes a car these days without power steering anyways?

I think it is illegal to drive without a speedo, but my motorcycle only has an idiot light for the fuel tank.

Black_Moons
07-17-2011, 12:16 AM
I think it is illegal to drive without a speedo, but my motorcycle only has an idiot light for the fuel tank.

Motorcycles hardly need speedos, Its not like the riders would listen to them, They either go the speed of the rest of traffic, Or much, much faster.

They need "Dent-o-meters", A meter that measures how big of a dent you'll make in the next car you hit.

justanengineer
07-17-2011, 12:30 AM
Luxury = products and services not considered essential. From Wikipedia (I know, I hate it too)

I dont have a DRO on any of my current equipment, nor do I use the QCTP much, so they must be a luxury compared to the 4 jaw, fly cutters, or measuring equipment which is used much more. Those that think not having these handicaps me or slows me down havent been in the shop with me. I happen to know a two man shop that makes specialized production machinery, and use only lanterns. With a little practice, you can set a bit on center just as quickly as with a QCTP. If you dont agree these are luxury compared to other tools, piss off. Im trying to give rational advice for someone on a budget, not a huge list of items which would likely be bought in the wrong order and handicap the OP, as we have all seen on here before.

Speedometers, fuel gages, power steering....all luxury and unnecessary (and legal without). Theyre among the first to get tossed in quite a few race cars. Who doesnt make a car with power steering? Idk. I worry more about who makes cars with a stick anymore.

Scottike
07-17-2011, 01:41 AM
As a comparative noob, I'm compelled to add my 2 cents to a thread that already has a wealth of good information.
Learn how to grind your own tool bits in HSS and sharpen brazed carbide.
(spring for a green wheel)
Always keep some HSS blanks on hand so you can make your own boring bars, threading tools, and specialized form tools.
I love my lathe chuck with two piece jaws, you can make soft jaws that let you mount odd shapes or bore them to hold parts that need repeatable accuracy that you can't get if you don't have a collet chuck or a "set true".
A micrometer stop on your ways with a 2" range dial indicator is outstanding if you don't have a DRO. But don't spend big bucks on your indicators to use with it. buy 2 cheapies and keep a spare on hand. If you have an expensive one keep it put away safe from the swarf, oil, and coolant until it's needed.
Buy tooling as you need it, as you gain experence you'll find work arounds that let you save your money for the tools you really need and not waste it on tools you never use or aren't worth the extra expense.

383 240z
07-17-2011, 12:06 PM
Wow guys I really did not mean to start a poop throwing contest. I should clarify a few things. First off I have 3 dial indicators with mag bases, from my former career. Second, I like using the dials on my lathe My eyes are not as good as they were a decade ago, so it really helps keep me on target. Third I have NO problem with HSS cutting tools I bought the tool holders with the replaceable inserts based on 2 things. 1st I have a limited amount of shop time, between my job, my business and my family (just like most of you guys) I dont have hours to spend nightly out in the shop grinding tooling. Yes I have done it and I like it. so the cost of the inserts ($5 each) I get 3 cutting faces The time it takes me to cut a tool times three is worth the $5 I spent. The second (and this brings me to the point of my next thread) is they sit just about perfect on on my 4 position tool holder. about .002" below center. for now I can live with that.

At a bit more about me and my situation. Yes I am frugal, hower I wont be missing any meals if I pop on a decent tool, however I will only be spending what I have to for the tool, I am a swap meet junkie, I search the classifieds and tool traders all the time.

That all being said I like the discourse of this place, I understand what works for one mans shop will be a nightmare in another, so I am listening to everything then examining in how it will work for me.

Well if i have not offended you to the point of exile, check out my new thread on my search for a QCTP. Thanks again Keith