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View Full Version : Weapon of mass disruption, OT, Computer hackers



Dawai
07-15-2011, 07:52 AM
So.. on DIVX, watching the CBS evening news for 14th.. Hackers stole the plans-blueprints on the new joint strike fighter, the UAV, UMV drones.. battlefield robots in production..

This scares more a lot more than the 9/11 trade center attacks.. It should anyone who is sane and conscious of the possibilities. Most our new battlefield cannons are targeted by remote. Seeing just them turn on us in the battlefield??

OUR Schools? "No child left behind" instead of "promoting" nerds with special learning needs to succeed?

Lemme see.. since we OWE china so much money, if it is them? they own the rights to do so??? That appears like borrowing money from the Mafia.. Not going to end well.

justanengineer
07-15-2011, 08:28 AM
No worries, its always the things you dont see on the news that is the news.

Just an FYI, our troops have been attacked by UAVs very similar to our own for several years now. Unfortunately its a fact of life that countries like Iran and Syria support terrorists and are more than willing to give them whatever weapons they can. Regarding prints for jets and other weapons, no worries. In this modern day and age, the technology gets all of the attention in the media, but yet in real combat its still the old fashioned ways of operating that get relied on and used.

Regarding schools today...what do you expect? We have made it virtually impossible for anyone with any real world experience to have a second career in teaching by requiring advanced degrees and other "teaching" requirements. My father taught middle and high school for 26 years after 15 as a metallurgist, starting teaching in 1972. He doesnt have a MS, he has an AS in diesel tech and a BS in metallurgy from a NY state school. His generation were teachers that could teach anything from welding, machining, auto shop, wood shop, and even did foundry work and ceramics. The current "teachers" that replaced him and his coworkers all have MS degrees in education, and not a single one has anything more than a AS in anything related to the trades. What was once a huge shop program teaching dam near every aspect of the trades is now a basic woodworking program, not due to budget cuts (rich district), but due to silly requirements. Its really comforting to know that my kids will attend school in the future taught by a generation of "teachers" who can read out of a book and know all about child psychology and grammar, but not how to build anything with their hands. The truly sad part is that 13 years later, the current teachers are starting at a higher rate than his generation ever made. I laugh when I hear teachers complaining about being underpaid.

Sorry, but in the interests of keeping threads open, I wont discuss the country's budget situation. That would get into politics and lead to impolite conversation on my part. :D

Smile, its a beautiful day out!

Weston Bye
07-15-2011, 08:38 AM
Read my post (#50) in this thread:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=48880

It applies to, and supports, what justanengineer wrote.

Dawai
07-15-2011, 08:39 AM
Talking to a buddy at a local power plant.. well.. he says thousands of cyber attacks daily..
A lot of the last work I did for a local power company was "remote operation" of power plants and
switchyards.

My camera system here.. when I plug in the blue network cable gets hit hundreds of times a
minute.. I always suspected it was perverts wanting a look but now I suspect the tax id and
a internet connection are connected.. Probably attacks on all businesses.

Okay.. are the computer virus in the picture frames from china, the connectivity items all related
to a evil plan by "others"?? do I need my tin foil hat to protect me from them?

I cling to my guns and Bible as Obama suggested..

Evan
07-15-2011, 09:10 AM
The "Thousands of attacks daily"is a very misleading statistic. All that means is what are called "Port scans"to see if any doors have been left wide open. They aren't even illegal under US law. It isn't like rattling the door handle to see if it is locked, it's like checking from the street to see if the door is open.

Real attacks are an entirely different game and port scanning isn't it. An attack can happen in many different ways but external attempts to actually break in always include some sort of attempt to exploit weaknesses in the part of a system that faces the internet. Real attacks are far less common. I analyze the data on my router from time to time and they only happen a few times per day at most. It makes no difference that I am not a potential lucrative target, hackers aren't that selective. They scan wide ranges of IP addresses looking for vulnerable computers because they can use "bots" to finance their activites.

Bots are pwned computers (owned) and they compile lists of such computers they have compromised and sell them on the underground market to cyber gangs that use them to extort money from commercial operators such as online gambling operations. They use massive bot networks to launch denial of service attacks. They aren't intrusions since the objective is to prevent people from being able to use the target website and all that requires is to make that site overloaded by thousands of pwned computers all trying to get to it at the same time. Then they contact the web site operators and offer to stop if they are paid. It's a variation of the age old protection rackets.

The real hackers don't get discovered very often. They don't brag or hang out at semi concealed hacker chat boards and they don't have friends. They work alone, they steal money or information and they sell it to people they never meet for money that consists of already broken account access somewhere. Traps are abundant in every direction. Hackers hack hackers, governments hack governments, everyone hacks everyone. The US is just as active at hacking others as others are hacking the US. The activity never stops and comprises a medium level of "background noise" on the net all the time. It's like the sound of surf rolling in on the beach. It never stops, it only varies in intensity from time to time.

Just Bob Again
07-15-2011, 09:55 AM
Hackers stole the plans-blueprints on the new joint strike fighter, . . .Seeing just them turn on us in the battlefield??

Not good, but one way or another everybody on the other side has all the plans to everything we make. Space shuttle, nuclear stuff, fighter jets, you name it. We even give them away to 'allies' whose loyalties change every other day. Like Turkey. Some of it is done on purpose. It's all an excuse to spend more money developing new systems since the old ones are now compromised. What is far more disturbing is that most everything runs on software and there are a whole lot of these systems using Microsoft Windows. You want to talk about scary, that's scary.

Dawai
07-15-2011, 10:07 AM
I hate MS windows.. but.. the new linux is as bad. So.. do you hate it all when it connects you to the outside world? OR provides a useful function?

My home made cnc machine has had more problems with Windows than equipment failures. OLD DOS "turbo pascal" turbocnc programs just keep on running, without modern cameras, or pretty graphics.. Soon tho I will be out of compatible boxes to run it on.

Evan, rattling the door? Since my dsl modem was made overseas.. and a program does not check for intrusion until identified by software?? HOW do you know no back doors left available? do you trust the Ubuntu Linux?? the camera I just connected? Memory stick in the camera?

Makes you want to clean the guns and put on a tin foil hat.. This whole world has fell out of reach or control by the "normal person".. from the cars which we have to return to the dealer to connect a "special" ecu programmer to diagnose to the boxes which we read about our direct deposit checks into OUR bank. Makes you want to keep a old simpler car in the bushes for emergency.. but.. My county outlawed all extra vehicles..

RandyZ
07-15-2011, 10:47 AM
I highly doubt that any top secret plans reside on computers that have internet access. But if you want to spread dis-information, why not have it stolen. Remember the case of the faulty capacitors the Chinese stole the formula for.

Evan
07-15-2011, 10:56 AM
I highly doubt that any top secret plans reside on computers that have internet access.

They don't. The real problem is that the US goverment has revealed that somebody had full access to the classified network for up to several months. It isn't connected to the internet at all. They aren't saying how it happened.

macona
07-15-2011, 10:57 AM
I hate MS windows.. but.. the new linux is as bad. So.. do you hate it all when it connects you to the outside world? OR provides a useful function?

My home made cnc machine has had more problems with Windows than equipment failures. OLD DOS "turbo pascal" turbocnc programs just keep on running, without modern cameras, or pretty graphics.. Soon tho I will be out of compatible boxes to run it on.

Evan, rattling the door? Since my dsl modem was made overseas.. and a program does not check for intrusion until identified by software?? HOW do you know no back doors left available? do you trust the Ubuntu Linux?? the camera I just connected? Memory stick in the camera?

Makes you want to clean the guns and put on a tin foil hat.. This whole world has fell out of reach or control by the "normal person".. from the cars which we have to return to the dealer to connect a "special" ecu programmer to diagnose to the boxes which we read about our direct deposit checks into OUR bank. Makes you want to keep a old simpler car in the bushes for emergency.. but.. My county outlawed all extra vehicles..

Me thinks you are a little paranoid.

Evan
07-15-2011, 11:00 AM
Remember the case of the faulty capacitors the Chinese stole the formula for.


??? That actually happened.

lazlo
07-15-2011, 11:02 AM
I highly doubt that any top secret plans reside on computers that have internet access.

Very true, but it makes great headlines. Computers with classified materials are not connected to the Internet. Even the low-level (confidential) material the US soldier in the Wikileaks debacle stole was copied in a SCIF (secure computer vault) to a CD, and then smuggled out.

But part of Dave's story is true: when Google was having a huge pissing contest with the Chinese government over the search filtering agreement, Google turned off the filtering for awhile in January, 2010. China retaliated with a wave of hacker attacks. My Gmail account was hacked, and so was Forrest's (among millions of others).

lazlo
07-15-2011, 11:04 AM
??? That actually happened.

He was implying that it was misinformation intentionally disseminated to the Chinese.

Unfortunately, that was a case of sheer greed, incompetence and stupidity: the Chinese stole part of the electrolyte formula from the Taiwanese worker who stole the complete formula from the Japanese.

BigBoy1
07-15-2011, 11:06 AM
Regarding schools today...what do you expect? We have made it virtually impossible for anyone with any real world experience to have a second career in teaching by requiring advanced degrees and other "teaching" requirements. :D


Having spent almost 40 years working as a Mechanical Engineer with an MS degree, I have used all types of mathematics upto and including calculus throughout my career. The local community college has an ad in the local paper for a Mathematics Instructor. I applied for the job but was told that I didn't qualify because I didn't have any education credits in my background. Never mind that I had organized and taught course during my working career, I didn't have a piece of paper saying that I sat through some boring courses. The person hired was newly graduated and had not worked one day in the real world. I guess the adage is true - Those who understand the subject get jobs and those who don't, be come teachers!

lazlo
07-15-2011, 11:08 AM
Me thinks you are a little paranoid.

Hehe, but with Dave, it's charming...

I bet he'd be a blast over beer in a biker bar :)

Rosco-P
07-15-2011, 11:14 AM
Computers with classified materials are not connected to the Internet. Even the low-level (confidential) material the US soldier in the Wikileaks debacle stole was copied in a SCIF (secure computer vault) to a CD, and then smuggled out.


I've seen that first hand. At a large manufacturer of defense system and avionics for the US military the computers doing computations for defense work didn't have any communications links beyond the room they were housed in.

Evan
07-15-2011, 11:19 AM
It's called "Air Gap" security. It goes a lot further than that though. I have worked on secure systems.

Rosco-P
07-15-2011, 11:28 AM
It's called "Air Gap" security. It goes a lot further than that though. I have worked on secure systems.

No ****?

I've worked on secure systems and classified projects as well. I didn't think I had to expound on every security detail or physical measure, nor should I.

Dawai
07-15-2011, 11:33 AM
Fool me once, shame on you.. fool me twice.. shame on me..

Okay.. I was hit once with identity fraud. They stole my bank, my credit cards.. I could not "get them back" without sending a certified letter. To be safe, I filed a incident report with the local sheriff.

Imagine the shock and awe when you "don't have enough in the bank" for a gallon of gas or a loaf of bread.. all across the country in a day or less time..

Way to win a war? starvation. Who controls the food, the free trade, controls the world.

Look up the "chinese ultimatum" for a real paranoia feast.. Seems some people are capitalizing upon Bin Ladens capture..

Lazlo, not so much anymore.. I do not carry the physical presence I used to. When the stupid lil blue eyed french girl told the group of 10-15 1%ers that I'd kick all their asses at once.. well.. not been the same since.. When she came home so drunk she peed in my hallway, I put wheels under her ass and out the door. This was after she tried to shoot my ironworker buddy with my pistol. Life has been a HOOT, I am way overdue for my dirt nap. I am older, sicker.. and do not relish the fact I can no longer handle anything the world throws at me.

I guess I have been a lil scared since I came out of a hospital while getting a large amount of blood drawn and no food, there was a group of young inner city children around my truck.. I knew I could not whip them all.. but I scared a couple of them with a big bluff.

This crap with China Kinda worries me too. Paranoid or not.. Sticks and stones may break my bones.. but weapons of mass destruction launched from our own silos at us can kill us all.

lazlo
07-15-2011, 11:34 AM
No ****?

I've worked on secure systems and classified projects as well. I didn't think I had to expound on every security detail or physical measure, nor should I.

Don't bother, we know what you're talking about. :) I was an electrical engineer at Army Research Labs in DC from 88 - 95. Worked for the National Reconnaissance Office. Back then, the organization didn't officially exist -- the offices at the Pentagon were unlabeled doors.

Weston Bye
07-15-2011, 11:47 AM
...Paranoid or not.. Sticks and stones may break my bones.. but weapons of mass destruction launched from our own silos at us can kill us all.
As long as we are in Paranoid Mode, read the book One Second After. Scared me, but it's wearing off. The problem is that the initiating scenario, EMP or electromagnetic pulse, from a nuke in space, that roasts some or much of our electrical and electronic infastructure, is entirely possible in todays day and age. Pull the plug on electrical power and civilization with just-in-time resource distribution grinds to a halt.

How long will you remain civil without toilet paper?

Dawai
07-15-2011, 11:56 AM
I just had come excellent Hunan beef... but.. most the population in China never sees food that good huh?

I spent a couple hours in the shop today.. perhaps tomorrow I can spend more. I have been doing short jobs there and leaving the mess for later.. several days of just cleaning due..

Another thought? the Rhode Island Red Rooster here.. controls his "hens" by squawking a "alert" that sounds like a TOO_DOO trumpet.. they run to hide behind him.. I've seen them stupid birds do things that amaze me.. interesting for a new thing. Seem him lay food in front of the hens.. carrot and stick.. you can direct a nation of paranoids.. If you feel UNSAFE, you will pay more taxes...

Evan
07-15-2011, 12:20 PM
The problem is that the initiating scenario, EMP or electromagnetic pulse, from a nuke in space, that roasts some or much of our electrical and electronic infastructure, is entirely possible in todays day and age.

Yep. All it takes is three nukes at 200 miles altitude, east, central and west to instantly drop us back to the 19th century. Mass panic, mass starvation, nowhere to go and no defense possible. No radiation and no blast damage at all. Imagine the riots everywhere at once.

Dawai
07-15-2011, 12:32 PM
EVEN the telephones would be out.. the switches are multiplexers operated by a cpu.

Went through that with my dsl.. they reassigned a new pin for my phone number by handheld
It is no longer hard wired.

RandyZ
07-15-2011, 03:21 PM
??? That actually happened.

I hate to quote from wiki, but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

I thought that it was you that brought it up in the first place, 6 or 7 years ago.

Rosco-P
07-15-2011, 04:36 PM
Yep. All it takes is three nukes at 200 miles altitude, east, central and west to instantly drop us back to the 19th century. Mass panic, mass starvation, nowhere to go and no defense possible. No radiation and no blast damage at all. Imagine the riots everywhere at once.

Little to be gained by detonating an EMP over US soil. Infrastructure destroyed, what would the enemies of the US gain? Our land, our resources, but no means to harvest or transport them? Submarine and surface based weapons would still be viable and there would be hell to pay.

mike os
07-15-2011, 04:52 PM
so is this the end of life as we know it ..... again?:rolleyes:

Weston Bye
07-15-2011, 05:40 PM
Little to be gained by detonating an EMP over US soil. Infrastructure destroyed, what would the enemies of the US gain? Our land, our resources, but no means to harvest or transport them? Submarine and surface based weapons would still be viable and there would be hell to pay.

Agreed. I would like to believe that countries and governments would see it in their own best intrest not to attempt such a thing. I'm not so sure that the stateless enemy, those who owe allegience only to a fanatic branch of religon, would see it that way. Fortunately, it appears that they are presently incapable of such an act. Indeed, it appears that they aren't even capable of delivering effective ordinary bombs to our soil, but that hasn't stopped them from trying.

The Artful Bodger
07-15-2011, 05:48 PM
Yep. All it takes is three nukes at 200 miles altitude, east, central and west to instantly drop us back to the 19th century. Mass panic, mass starvation, nowhere to go and no defense possible. No radiation and no blast damage at all. Imagine the riots everywhere at once.


Dont worry, guns are not effected by EMP.:(

topct
07-15-2011, 05:59 PM
How would one approach strangers?

With weapons drawn?

With secret hand signs perhaps?

Hope they are the current version.

mike os
07-16-2011, 05:33 AM
Agreed. I would like to believe that countries and governments would see it in their own best intrest not to attempt such a thing. I'm not so sure that the stateless enemy, those who owe allegience only to a fanatic branch of religon, would see it that way. Fortunately, it appears that they are presently incapable of such an act. Indeed, it appears that they aren't even capable of delivering effective ordinary bombs to our soil, but that hasn't stopped them from trying.


for terrorism... why bother? a ground burst has much more "impact" & long term damage, and the terrorist PR dept can still broadcast their propaganda on the hour every hour.....

Dawai
07-16-2011, 07:36 AM
Point being, three weapons delivered and "we'd" kill each other for loaves of bread and a few pinto beans. 95% of the public is not prepared to wait a week.

THE Softened American public would sit down and Wait on a government to "rescue" them.. Tough talk right now in a easy chair, but you starve the people for a week and you can drive a tank into the cities and be "welcomed" if you had a few bags of rice or beans.

Cou-tou to the emperor.. it'd be over..

Dawai
07-16-2011, 07:58 AM
BUT... it has not happened yet...

I got a lovely cup of columbian coffee I ground the beans fresh this morning, fed the chickens, the neighbors loose game chickens at the fence, the game chickens which fly over the fence to eat my ticks and bugs, the neighbors pitt bulldog outside my gate.. and awaiting the wife to get up so we can eat "one more meal" before Armageddon..

As I mentioned before.. I am overdue for a long dirt nap.. Odds were..... We are all very lucky to have it as good as we have had for so long.. Just take a walk into Nature to realize life can end in a few moments. (yeah, I got a five foot wide hawk in the trees behind my place)

I'm cleaning my shop... too many projects to do to worry about silly not happened yet crap..

Swarf&Sparks
07-16-2011, 01:27 PM
3 meals from anarchy? :(

Bmyers
07-16-2011, 02:12 PM
All you need is your survival seeds, food back pack and gold. So say the fear mongers on the radio. :rolleyes:

Alistair Hosie
07-16-2011, 02:29 PM
Me thinks you are a little paranoid.
That's how those few making trillions from this boogey man scare want uis to be. Alistair

danlb
07-16-2011, 03:03 PM
I highly doubt that any top secret plans reside on computers that have internet access.

While that SHOULD be true, there is no way to guarantee that. The DOD has been known to scrap computers without erasing the hard drives.

I bought a SUN workstation on eBay that was once used in NASA. I could tell by looking at the data that was still on the disk. I was able to discern a lot about the internal network from the config files, and there were hundreds of userids in the /etc/passwd file.

As I am a good guy, I formatted the disk and started clean. It was tempting to see what erased files I could resurrect. The disk has since been destroyed ( saturated magnetically then mechanically mangled).

The point is... we have a lot of rules and laws to protect top secret info, but laziness and stupidity will defeat security more times than anyone knows.

Dan

Evan
07-16-2011, 08:25 PM
I hate to quote from wiki, but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

I thought that it was you that brought it up in the first place, 6 or 7 years ago.



Apparently we misunderstood each other. I thought you were implying it didn't happen.