View Full Version : Last manual shop?
I have no association with these guys but this might be the last of the fully manual, non-CNC production shops left.
http://www.observatory.org/access.htm
metal mite
01-22-2004, 03:47 PM
I looked at their products and don't see what a cnc would gain them.
Simple straight foreward parts.
No muss, no fuss.
mite
Did you see this turntable?
http://www.vsengr.com/lplayer.html
Evan,
All the pictures seem to show the same guy, a one man shop? Are you sure he doesn't farm some of his work out to a CNC shop? A look at the hexagon turret thingie shows a bright machined mount (?) tube with multiple diameters and angular cuts. Looks like CNC work to me. That's trivial on a CNC lathe, tedious and not so easy on a manual machine, especially maintaining the bright machine finish.
Another pic shows him inspecting/assembling some parts. Lots of parts laid out in front of him on the bench, maybe a delivery from a CNC sub-contractor?
If in fact he is doing all this work manually then I bet he has to charge far more than the parts are worth to make a living. Is he in such a niche market that he doesn't have to worry about competition? If a small CNC shop did get into this type business they could eat him alive.
BillH
01-22-2004, 05:33 PM
theres a machine shop near me that is mostly manual machines for production. They do have 2 turning centers, but since I've been there, they doubled the amount of manual mills they got going.
He claims to do it all in his shop. He has a few assistants. He has little or no competition and his devices are zero compromise quality. He also has the ego to match so I don't think he would let anyone else make parts for him. If you could see the all hand mirror polished titanium 10" telescope he made and sold for $25,000 you would see what I mean, but he took it offline as soon as he sold it.
Quote: "VSE does not use external job shops to manufacture their various products, like others do. Every VSE product is designed and manufactured in-house."
[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 01-22-2004).]
"Harley's Classic Machine Shop" in Rockland, Maine is a screw machine shop without an NC/CNC machine on the floor. It's a one man operation, and he's got some nice contracts going by the look of things. It's a really neat shop, crammed with old screw machines making parts. Most of the machines have their headstocks against an outside wall, with holes cut at spindle height for material to feed through. Great guy too, he learned the trade from his grandfather and seems real happy in his work.
Quote: "VSE does not use external job shops to manufacture their various products, like others do. Every VSE product is designed and manufactured in-house."
Evan,
It's impressive if true. Maybe a little foolish also. Some of the parts would be so much easier with CNC.
I should note that I have several artist customers who say essentially the same thing about hand-creating their work even though I'm doing a good portion of the work on my CNC's.
ibewgypsie
01-22-2004, 08:57 PM
Definitely has more time and energy then I do. A lot more skill too.
I probably should have started with a straight-manual machine shop. I love my old leblond, kinda mindless cutting lil ribbons of metal. It'd take lots of drugs to do it constantly thou. I am too high strung.
David
Herb Helbig
01-22-2004, 09:14 PM
Most of that turntable stuff is too rich for this cyborg, but that set of spacers looks like a good deal!
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wierdscience
01-22-2004, 10:16 PM
I worked for a similar company down the road,we did it day in day out with all manual machines,bright finishes are no problem in production on manual machines,neither are the setups difficult if they are well thought out.
We typicaly held tolerences to +/-.0005"batch runs of 100 or more pieces where common and lots of parts were stock off the shelf items that we modified.
We did cost studies of each part to determine what the actual costs were because we thought about farming out two of the more complex items,but we found that the cnc machine could not come close the reason being is that on small parts it takes more time to load and unload parts than it does to do the actual machining,so while the nc guy is waiting for the door to open we were making chips.
We also sped up our facing operations by using a power rotary table outfitted with air collet closers,you could load one part while the one before was being faced,at the rate we ran that operation even at a lazy pace you could finish 100 parts per hour.
Cnc is great for complex parts,but I have seen many nc shops come and go while the manual shops stay put.After all how do you think all those production runs where done before cnc,Henry Ford didn't use it on the T or the A.
Thrud
01-23-2004, 12:34 AM
DR
It says in the turtable section that it is CNC milled to 50 millionths accuracy guarenteed. Yeah, sure - NOT!
Dave, he doesn't say it is CNC milled. He says the sub platter is diamond ground to 50 millionths (micro-inch) accuracy, entirely possible.
[This message has been edited by Evan (edited 01-23-2004).]
JCHannum
01-23-2004, 08:54 AM
I would not be surprised that the turntable side of the business is outsourced to other shops. Grinding is mentioned in several places, and I see no grinding equipment in the shop photos or description.
I would not think that grinding and optical equipment is a good mix.
Actually, there are many small shops doing small runs very successfully without CNC equipment. For many, when they do go to CNC, they end up over financed, and go belly up. It is not at all uncommon to walk into a bank auction and see a nice manual shop with a good line of products that has failed because of one or two big dollar machines sitting in the front of the shop.
[This message has been edited by JCHannum (edited 01-23-2004).]
dvideo
01-23-2004, 09:45 AM
Old Farmer's Rule: No machine makes money till it's paid for and depreciated.
-jr
"Quote: "VSE does not use external job shops to manufacture their various products, like others do. Every VSE product is designed and manufactured in-house."
Hmmmm.....if he has components jobbed out, he could still say the products are manufactured in-house. I'm sure he buys nuts and bolts, those are from external shops.
I guess someone needs to ask him for his definition of "manufactured in-house".
metal mite
01-23-2004, 03:16 PM
I'd bet he makes the first of each type, and subs out the later production lots.
Master cam would help on some of those bases but a rotary table, or indexer could do the same thing.
Aren't enough hours in a day to make all those on a production basis with a manual lathe and mill.
Machinery ain't too impressive.
Looks like a bunch of Tiwan stuff.
mite
p.s.
The first cnc was made on a manual machine.
[This message has been edited by metal mite (edited 01-23-2004).]
JCHannum
01-23-2004, 03:40 PM
He has a lot of JET. Looks like a very nice HSM shop.
In one photo he is using his digital height gage on a metal or cardboard covered bench with a fan blowing on it. Wonder how you can hold 50 millionths that way?
wierdscience
01-23-2004, 07:25 PM
I'll bet he has less in his whole shop than the price of one nc mill and much more versatility.
Plus if you consider what a man with machines can accomplish by himself in a day its entirely possible so long as you don't have people bothering you all day.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by wierdscience:
its entirely possible so long as you don't have people bothering you all day.</font>
Amen, brother! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif
Weird' wrote "......how do you think all those production runs where done before cnc,Henry Ford didn't use it on the T or the A."
Gee, I just read Ford slipped to third place behind Toyota. I bet if they got rid of all those CNC's in the factory they'd be back in second place in no time.
RLDCO
01-24-2004, 05:57 PM
I have no CNC machinery in my shop and i do not see any need for them in my buisness. I have a small custom gear shop and I am a one man operation. My Barber Coleman gear hobber and Fellows gear shaper are automatic machines though, so mabe they really don't make my shop a true manual shop. I have another machine shop saw and blanchard grind all my gear blanks for me, then I turn hubs and bores on my Turret lathe, and I think that is probably faster then trying to do 1 to 5 pcs. on a CNC because the programming time is so long. A friend of mine has a much bigger gear shop with CNC equipment and employees and says it is cheaper for me to supply him with blanks then to write programs for his short run custom orders. But I will say that at one time i looked into getting A CNC turning center, not because of speed, but rather depending on the material the finish is so much better. So instead of buying one ,I found a machine shop to do them for me when needed, and be very cost effective at the same time. I must confess that one of the reasons that i shyed away from getting a CNC turning center is because they look too technical for me, and i am not sure I could learn to use one.
RLDCO,
".....then I turn hubs and bores on my Turret lathe, and I think that is probably faster then trying to do 1 to 5 pcs. on a CNC because the programming time is so long. A friend of mine has a much bigger gear shop with CNC equipment and employees and says it is cheaper for me to supply him with blanks then to write programs for his short run custom orders. "
Long programming time.......maybe 25 years ago. You should look at some modern machines, newer controls are very fast to program. All my controls have conversational programming with graphical dry run. Most parts can be programmed before the manual machine operator can figure out what tools to put in his holders.
I have manual machines also and very seldom run one-offs on them anymore. Much, much faster on the CNC's. But probably the biggest advantage is a second part can be done in a fraction of the time of the first one. Any of you guys ever do a part on a manual machine using several different tools and compound settings, etc and ruin the part on the last operation? Not a problem with CNC.
daryl bane
01-24-2004, 10:46 PM
The place is just alittle too clean for me. I love a clean shop but I get a tad suspicious
of all of those products coming out of that
antiseptic place. He must have a full time sweeper.
If you were taking pictures of your shop where you make fine accessories for very expensive astronomical optical instruments would you clean it first? I've corresponded with this guy, he is for real.
RLDCO
01-25-2004, 12:07 AM
DR I really have not looked at any CNC turning machines for about 7 years now, and maybe the programing was not shown to me in a way that would lead me to believe it was easy. I know the machines my friend has are older machines, I figured a CNC is a CNC so how could they be different. I still don't know that one is right for me. Would it be cost effective also. I don't know?